The "Can You Trip a Prone Target" thread to Rule Them All!


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Liberty's Edge

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Can you use the Trip combat maneuver against prone opponents in order to gain additional effects that require the use of the Trip combat maneuver (such as an AoO from Greater Trip, or a drag from a Meteor Hammer)?

Derived from the various other trip threads that have been posted, though I felt that none have asked the question in a clear and thorough manner. I believe that this question is the core of what this thread, and this thread are trying to ask.


i could be wrong... but JJ backing off his initial emphatic 'no' stance to say that it's basically up to your GM indicates that this is unlikely to be FAQ'd.

every time they issue an official ruling, the gamists think they've won something because there's an official ruling to point to. who cares if the ruling is in favor of applying "common sense", they still won't. they accept it because a god said it which leads to the next situation easily resolvable via "common sense" being another FAQ request instead.

The Exchange Owner - D20 Hobbies

cuatroespada wrote:
accept it because a god said it which leads to the next situation easily resolvable via "common sense" being another FAQ request instead.

Yes

The only thing that fixes this is to either ramp up FAQ responses or to make a thread like "Ask JJ" that is binding responses.

Liberty's Edge

cuatroespada wrote:

i could be wrong... but JJ backing off his initial emphatic 'no' stance to say that it's basically up to your GM indicates that this is unlikely to be FAQ'd.

every time they issue an official ruling, the gamists think they've won something because there's an official ruling to point to. who cares if the ruling is in favor of applying "common sense", they still won't. they accept it because a god said it which leads to the next situation easily resolvable via "common sense" being another FAQ request instead.

Yes, that is such a silly thread.

Suffice it to say, there have been a number of threads about tripping, and I realize that there is some subject fatigue going on, none of the threads have actually asked a proper and clear question regarding what they actually want answered.

While I know how I would rule as a GM, it is still a legitimate question and I can see the answer to both sides of the argument.


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I say that you can attempt to trip a prone target.

But I also say that you will fail.

"Trip: When a prone character stands up and provokes an attack of opportunity, can I use that attack to trip the character again?

No. The attack of opportunity is triggered before the action that triggered it is resolved. In this case, the target is still prone when the attack of opportunity occurs (and you get the normal bonuses when making such an attack). Since the trip combat maneuver does not prevent the target's action, the target then stands up."

So, yes, you can try it. But it doesn't do anything, you automatically fail.


What I've found when I posted my question in a different thread was that there were many responses from people that didn't seem to understand what was being asked. It was designed to answer 3 questions in one swing. But only those that were part of the original discussion seems to realize the significance. The same appears to be happening here. I'm not sure if people aren't understanding the questions or if they're reading in passing and see trip and think of the FAQ that already exists or what. Nothing against them. I know how it is as I'm guilty of it too.

I'm not sure of the turn around time for getting something answered, but if it isn't done within what would seem to be reasonable and with the subject fatigue that is setting in for many people, this is probably a topic to come back to later in the year (if not longer) with a fresh question. Something basic that people aren't going to read over without thinking. Then at least we won't have the Trip FAQ being quoted. :P

Liberty's Edge

Common Sense wrote:

I say that you can attempt to trip a prone target.

But I also say that you will fail.

"Trip: When a prone character stands up and provokes an attack of opportunity, can I use that attack to trip the character again?

No. The attack of opportunity is triggered before the action that triggered it is resolved. In this case, the target is still prone when the attack of opportunity occurs (and you get the normal bonuses when making such an attack). Since the trip combat maneuver does not prevent the target's action, the target then stands up."

So, yes, you can try it. But it doesn't do anything, you automatically fail.

I don't think you really understand what it is I'm asking with this question. My question has absolutely nothing to do with the FAQ about making an AoO on a prone character trying to stand up.


As I said...

But again, I've done it too. >.<

Liberty's Edge

Elbedor wrote:
I'm not sure of the turn around time for getting something answered, but if it isn't done within what would seem to be reasonable and with the subject fatigue that is setting in for many people, this is probably a topic to come back to later in the year (if not longer) with a fresh question. Something basic that people aren't going to read over without thinking. Then at least we won't have the Trip FAQ being quoted. :P

I wouldn't expect any of these to get answered quickly. The PDT does have other things on their plate (especially with SKR's departure).

I think subject fatigue is a very real thing in this instance.


I'll be glad to see this resolved one way or another. Being able to point at the rules or FAQ is always the easiest end to a discussion when playing with strangers.


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HangarFlying wrote:
Common Sense wrote:

I say that you can attempt to trip a prone target.

But I also say that you will fail.

"Trip: When a prone character stands up and provokes an attack of opportunity, can I use that attack to trip the character again?

No. The attack of opportunity is triggered before the action that triggered it is resolved. In this case, the target is still prone when the attack of opportunity occurs (and you get the normal bonuses when making such an attack). Since the trip combat maneuver does not prevent the target's action, the target then stands up."

So, yes, you can try it. But it doesn't do anything, you automatically fail.

I don't think you really understand what it is I'm asking with this question. My question has absolutely nothing to do with the FAQ about making an AoO on a prone character trying to stand up.
Greater Trip wrote:
Whenever you successfully trip an opponent, that opponent provokes attacks of opportunity.
Meteor Hammer wrote:
If you succeed at a trip attempt with a meteor hammer, you can drag your opponent 5 feet closer to you rather than knocking her prone.

I'm pretty sure that you fact that you cannot actually be successful on a trip attempt against a prone target (as the FAQ that "common sense" referenced indicates) does answer your question fully. In order to gain benefits from the two methods that you mentioned (such as an AoO from Greater Trip, or a drag from a Meteor Hammer), the trip has to actually be successful, which it cannot be if the target is already prone.

Unless I'm also misunderstanding the question/intentions of the question (in which case, please feel free to correct me) there is no FAQ needed.


i'm confused... why isn't the trip FAQ relevant? it answers the question of whether or not you can trip someone who is already prone, doesn't it? if the answer is 'no' then your question about whether or not the other three PCs with Greater Trip can trip to provoke more AoO is also answered. No, the first PC already successfully tripped the target and the target is prone, he cannot be tripped again until he successfully stands.

or did i miss something and the trip FAQ doesn't actually say you can't trip someone who's prone. because i thought it answered this exact question.

nevermind... upon a third (or maybe fourth) reading of Elbedor's first post in his thread, it seems the question you want answered is...

Do effects that trigger on successful trips trigger on successful trip rolls or on successfully changing the target's status from standing to prone?

Democratus wrote:

I'll be glad to see this resolved one way or another. Being able to point at the rules or FAQ is always the easiest end to a discussion when playing with strangers.

You can't just point to rule 0?


The FAQ question I had posted elsewhere was a little more complicated than this one. It is attempting to answer 3 distinct questions really. This thread focuses on the 2nd of those.

Where does the AoO come in the Greater Trip sequence (Roll/AoO/Prone or Roll/Prone/AoO)?
If you have an ability that says 'You get X for doing Y to a target', can I apply Y to a target already suffering from Y to get the ability?
And does the AoO generated from Greater Trip apply just for the Tripper or for everyone?

These 3 questions were debated significantly in past and recent threads. So the goal was to answer them all with one question. The answer to that question would be either Yes or No, but the WHY behind the question would give us the mechanics behind the answer. For those that don't want all the questions wrapped up into one, they have this thread and HangarFlying's other one.


oh... well in the other thread you seemed to disregard question 1 (but there's a FAQ or dev comment somewhere that says an AoO happens before the triggering event). and the answer to question three is everyone that threatens gets an AoO.

Greater Trip wrote:
Whenever you successfully trip an opponent, that opponent provokes attacks of opportunity.

it says provokes attacks. plural. it doesn't say "provokes an attack of opportunity from you."

edit: so since that answers 3 and probably 1, i think my phrasing above makes question 2 more clear.

Designer, RPG Superstar Judge

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Thread renamed.

The The Rules FAQ and How to Use It specifically says to not name your threads like this.

Liberty's Edge

cuatroespada wrote:

Do effects that trigger on successful trips trigger on successful trip rolls or on successfully changing the target's status from standing to prone?

Except that if one uses a meteor hammer, the target never falls prone upon making a successful trip. So, if a target is already prone, can you trip the target with a meteor hammer in order to drag them? There is other equipment and abilities that require you to trip the target, but apply a different effect other than prone, so if the target is already prone, can you trip them to get those effects?

Liberty's Edge

Sean K Reynolds wrote:

Thread renamed.

The The Rules FAQ and How to Use It specifically says to not name your threads like this.

There we go, that works, thanks!


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cuatroespada wrote:

i'm confused... why isn't the trip FAQ relevant? it answers the question of whether or not you can trip someone who is already prone, doesn't it? if the answer is 'no' then your question about whether or not the other three PCs with Greater Trip can trip to provoke more AoO is also answered. No, the first PC already successfully tripped the target and the target is prone, he cannot be tripped again until he successfully stands.

or did i miss something and the trip FAQ doesn't actually say you can't trip someone who's prone. because i thought it answered this exact question.

nevermind... upon a third (or maybe fourth) reading of Elbedor's first post in his thread, it seems the question you want answered is...

Do effects that trigger on successful trips trigger on successful trip rolls or on successfully changing the target's status from standing to prone?

That FAQ doesn't answer whether a person can actually be successfully tripped if they are standing up from prone. The FAQ states that tripping a character who is standing up from prone does not prevent the character from standing up, because the AoO occurs prior to them actually standing up.


ah... then you're right. the FAQ isn't relevant.


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I have learned in my many years that "common sense" is usually wrong. It is usually the least common denominator of information taken at face value rather than any sort of critical thinking applied to the situation at hand.

As I stated before, the question is much more basic than trip. It really is:

"What constitutes a successful hit/attack/maneuver? Is it the successful attack roll, or the successful application of the effect?"


Komoda wrote:

I have learned in my many years that "common sense" is usually wrong. It is usually the least common denominator of information taken at face value rather than any sort of critical thinking applied to the situation at hand.

As I stated before, the question is much more basic than trip. It really is:

"What constitutes a successful hit/attack/maneuver? Is it the successful attack roll, or the successful application of the effect?"

This is accurate. That ultimately is the question to be answered first and foremost. I can see it going either way, to be honest. At first blush, you'd think a "successful trip" is probably one that includes knocking the bad guy on his butt. But then again, you'd probably think a "successful hit" is one that actually does physical damage. But we know that is unequivocally not the case. Hence, grey! So much wonderful grey!

Also, "common sense" is often times "my interpretation of things, which I assume every sensible person agrees with".

It's just common sense!


eh... sometimes appeals to common sense are appeals to occam's razor. those are legit.

but anyway, i think it's clear considering what fretgod pointed out about what constitutes a "successful hit" that meteor hammer, at least, triggers on a successful roll regardless of how prone or not-prone the target is. still iffy on g. trip.


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If you can't picture it being done, and said action is not found in the rules, then it wasn't intended to be done.

Can you picture using a meteor hammer against a prone target?
"This weapon consists of one or two spherical weights attached by a 10-foot chain. You whirl the weights and wrap them around an opponent's body. If you succeed at a trip attempt with a meteor hammer, you can drag your opponent 5 feet closer to you rather than knocking her prone." How exactly do you plan to wrap your weapon around a prone target?

Can you picture getting an AoO form trying to trip someone who is already prone? How would you even do that? Isn't it the same as just hitting them?

If you could trip someone who was prone, I guess you could also:

Sunder an item on a person who has no items on them (Yes, that person is naked).
Steal an item on a person who has no items on them.
Disarm a person who doesn't have anything in their hands.
Etc...

In order to be tripped, you need to be able to stumble or fall (stumble meaning to almost fall).

Google defines the terms as:
Trip: "catch one's foot on something and stumble or fall."
Stumble: "trip or momentarily lose one's balance; almost fall."
Fall: "move downward, typically rapidly and freely without control, from a higher to a lower level."

It is not common sense, it goes against the English language, and it's not described in the rules. What more is needed?

Lantern Lodge

Out of curiosity, with the meteor hammer, can't you just drag someone with the drag maneuver? Because it has the trip quality, you'd still get the enhancement bonus of the weapon... right? What's the benefit here?


I was trying to debate the rules in the other thread, but the question in this one. Not sure which way to go here. Myself and others have responded to all those points in the other thread over the last week.

Liberty's Edge

FrodoOf9Fingers wrote:
Out of curiosity, with the meteor hammer, can't you just drag someone with the drag maneuver? Because it has the trip quality, you'd still get the enhancement bonus of the weapon... right? What's the benefit here?

I would hazard to guess that because it has the trip quality, if you fail in the attempt, you can drop the weapon and avoid being tripped in turn...though, if the target wasn't adjacent to and couldn't trip you anyways...meh.

Shadow Lodge

FrodoOf9Fingers wrote:
Out of curiosity, with the meteor hammer, can't you just drag someone with the drag maneuver? Because it has the trip quality, you'd still get the enhancement bonus of the weapon... right? What's the benefit here?

One of the benefits would be with greater trip you'd get AoO when you do a 'successful trip attempt', so free attack.

Same with seven branched sword and sub-ing flat-footed instead of prone.


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Common Sense wrote:

If you can't picture it being done, and said action is not found in the rules, then it wasn't intended to be done.

Can you picture using a meteor hammer against a prone target?
"This weapon consists of one or two spherical weights attached by a 10-foot chain. You whirl the weights and wrap them around an opponent's body. If you succeed at a trip attempt with a meteor hammer, you can drag your opponent 5 feet closer to you rather than knocking her prone." How exactly do you plan to wrap your weapon around a prone target?

Can you picture getting an AoO form trying to trip someone who is already prone? How would you even do that? Isn't it the same as just hitting them?

If you could trip someone who was prone, I guess you could also:

Sunder an item on a person who has no items on them (Yes, that person is naked).
Steal an item on a person who has no items on them.
Disarm a person who doesn't have anything in their hands.
Etc...

In order to be tripped, you need to be able to stumble or fall (stumble meaning to almost fall).

Google defines the terms as:
Trip: "catch one's foot on something and stumble or fall."
Stumble: "trip or momentarily lose one's balance; almost fall."
Fall: "move downward, typically rapidly and freely without control, from a higher to a lower level."

It is not common sense, it goes against the English language, and it's not described in the rules. What more is needed?

You can't picture wrapping a length of chain around the leg of someone who is lying on the ground and dragging them closer to you? In fact to me, not allowing something like that to happen simply because the person is lying on the ground already defies logic.

Have you tried to stand up from sitting on icy ground? You don't think it's even remotely possible that when you plant your foot on ice it might slip out from under you when you try to put weight on it? Is that not the same as stumbling or losing one's balance?

Have you ever trained to ground fight? One common tactic taught is, when your opponent is on their back with at least one leg up between you, to grab or shove that leg out of the way, unbalancing your opponent and opening him or her up to your attack. Isn't that pretty much precisely the sort of thing we're questioning here?

All of this is really utterly unimaginable to you? Note, I'm not saying that this is determinative and the ruling that may come down will fall precisely in line with it. But you honestly can't even picture how you might use a pole arm to cut out someone's arm from underneath them when that person is trying to get into as much of a defensive posture as is possible when lying on the ground? I find it hard to believe that you can't even envision it.

Shadow Lodge

HangarFlying wrote:
FrodoOf9Fingers wrote:
Out of curiosity, with the meteor hammer, can't you just drag someone with the drag maneuver? Because it has the trip quality, you'd still get the enhancement bonus of the weapon... right? What's the benefit here?
I would hazard to guess that because it has the trip quality, if you fail in the attempt, you can drop the weapon and avoid being tripped in turn...though, if the target wasn't adjacent to and couldn't trip you anyways...meh.

My reading of the failed trip is you fall prone. Nothing says your tripped by your opponent. You failed so badly you tripped yourself, or you drop your weapon to keep your balance.

Shadow Lodge

fretgod99 wrote:
Common Sense wrote:

If you can't picture it being done, and said action is not found in the rules, then it wasn't intended to be done.

Can you picture using a meteor hammer against a prone target?
"This weapon consists of one or two spherical weights attached by a 10-foot chain. You whirl the weights and wrap them around an opponent's body. If you succeed at a trip attempt with a meteor hammer, you can drag your opponent 5 feet closer to you rather than knocking her prone." How exactly do you plan to wrap your weapon around a prone target?

Can you picture getting an AoO form trying to trip someone who is already prone? How would you even do that? Isn't it the same as just hitting them?

If you could trip someone who was prone, I guess you could also:

Sunder an item on a person who has no items on them (Yes, that person is naked).
Steal an item on a person who has no items on them.
Disarm a person who doesn't have anything in their hands.
Etc...

In order to be tripped, you need to be able to stumble or fall (stumble meaning to almost fall).

Google defines the terms as:
Trip: "catch one's foot on something and stumble or fall."
Stumble: "trip or momentarily lose one's balance; almost fall."
Fall: "move downward, typically rapidly and freely without control, from a higher to a lower level."

It is not common sense, it goes against the English language, and it's not described in the rules. What more is needed?

You can't picture wrapping a length of chain around the leg of someone who is lying on the ground and dragging them closer to you? In fact to me, not allowing something like that to happen simply because the person is lying on the ground already defies logic.

Have you tried to stand up from sitting on icy ground? You don't think it's even remotely possible that when you plant your foot on ice it might slip out from under you when you try to put weight on it? Is that not the same as stumbling or losing one's balance?

Have you ever trained to ground fight? One...

Nothing in the prone condition says you have a limb sticking out so it can be snagged either.

Shadow Lodge

Prone is prone, not prone (face up), prone (leg sticking in the air), prone (on back), etc. Of course thing says you ant houserules these conditions either.


Jacob Saltband wrote:
Prone is prone, not prone (face up), prone (leg sticking in the air), prone (on back), etc. Of course thing says you ant houserules these conditions either.

Prone means lying on the ground in Pathfinder. It doesn't mean dictionary prone. It doesn't mean helpless, which is very nearly what one would be in a fight if you were actually lying prone.

Someone who is prone in Pathfinder is still actively trying to defend him or herself. You don't do that by lying face down, flat on the ground, keeping your limbs plastered to your body.

Besides, if Pathfinder Prone only means literal Prone (as in, face down, lying on the ground prone) then nothing I ever do actually knocks an opponent on their back. I can hook an opponent's legs and yank them out from under him/her, but no matter in which direction I do it the opponent will always end up on its stomach.

Do you think that's the intent? Or do you think they simply wanted to use one word for "lying on the ground", rather than having to bother with distinguishing things like supine and prostrate?

Shadow Lodge

I think that if your prone you cant be tripped. So if you cant be tripped you cant used meteor hammer to drag someone using the trip combat maneuver. Nothing stopping you from using the drag combat maneuver to drag someone.

Same with seven branched sword. Cant trip cant use the atlernate ability.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Just use any 0th level arcane spell.

/pun


Jacob Saltband wrote:

I think that if your prone you cant be tripped. So if you cant be tripped you cant used meteor hammer to drag someone using the trip combat maneuver. Nothing stopping you from using the drag combat maneuver to drag someone.

Same with seven branched sword. Cant trip cant use the atlernate ability.

i don't think that you shouldn't be able to make a trip attempt if the target is already prone, just that you cant make a prone target prone.

if using a seven branched sword, or meteor hammer, you should definitely be able to use their alternate abilities on a prone target, this keeps their value high and keeps the items relevant. especially sense you can make more than one attack a round, so attakc 1=trip, attack2=alternate ability.

the problem is that we need a definitive separation of terms for "successful trip" and "successful trip attempt". as far as i am concerned, they already is, and Greater trip needs a "successful trip" to allow its AoO's, but others disagree.

people have sited good references to other rules for each side, but no one has shown a single other rule that shows "successful (X)" without the word "attempt" in the line having being granted anything without applying its effect.

in the "attack + damage" case i would like to point out that the damage DOES happen, it is simply reduced to 0 by other means. you cant equate damage to a condition because its not a lasting thing. it happens and that is it. but even still, when you "successfully attack" no matter what the opponents DR is, you still did the damage, it just got mitigated.


Jacob Saltband wrote:

I think that if your prone you cant be tripped. So if you cant be tripped you cant used meteor hammer to drag someone using the trip combat maneuver. Nothing stopping you from using the drag combat maneuver to drag someone.

Same with seven branched sword. Cant trip cant use the atlernate ability.

And that is certainly a fair interpretation. But my response was intended to demonstrate that there's no violation of common sense or reality to think that someone might be able to trip someone who's already on the ground, particularly if we're talking about dragging.


Shimesen wrote:
in the "attack + damage" case i would like to point out that the damage DOES happen, it is simply reduced to 0 by other means. you cant equate damage to a condition because its not a lasting thing. it happens and that is it. but even still, when you "successfully attack" no matter what the opponents DR is, you still did the damage, it just got mitigated.

That's fair. But I think you could make the same analysis in regards to tripping someone who is already prone if you wanted to. You still applied the effect, but the fact that the target was already prone "mitigated it", so to speak, like DR does to damage.

*shrug*

Shadow Lodge

fretgod99 wrote:
Jacob Saltband wrote:

I think that if your prone you cant be tripped. So if you cant be tripped you cant used meteor hammer to drag someone using the trip combat maneuver. Nothing stopping you from using the drag combat maneuver to drag someone.

Same with seven branched sword. Cant trip cant use the atlernate ability.

And that is certainly a fair interpretation. But my response was intended to demonstrate that there's no violation of common sense or reality to think that someone might be able to trip someone who's already on the ground, particularly if we're talking about dragging.

Thats the thing, I believe you cant trip a prone opponent so the other things cant be used if you cant succeed on a trip. Personally I wouldnt allow it becuase there is a combat maneuver that already does drag.


Jacob Saltband wrote:
fretgod99 wrote:
Jacob Saltband wrote:

I think that if your prone you cant be tripped. So if you cant be tripped you cant used meteor hammer to drag someone using the trip combat maneuver. Nothing stopping you from using the drag combat maneuver to drag someone.

Same with seven branched sword. Cant trip cant use the atlernate ability.

And that is certainly a fair interpretation. But my response was intended to demonstrate that there's no violation of common sense or reality to think that someone might be able to trip someone who's already on the ground, particularly if we're talking about dragging.
Thats the thing, I believe you cant trip a prone opponent so the other things cant be used if you cant succeed on a trip. Personally I wouldnt allow it becuase there is a combat maneuver that already does drag.

I understand that. But again, that's not the point I was responding to. The point I was responding to was that it violates common sense and is unimaginable to do any of these things, and for that reason it should not be allowed (among others). I was simply undercutting that reason for thinking it should be disallowed.

Now, that doesn't mean that because something is imaginable that it should be allowed. But it does mean that you shouldn't allow your lack of imagination to disallow something that is both imaginable and feasible.


I have to agree with fretgod99 that just because someone is lying on the ground, it doesn't mean you can't "make the attempt" by declaring a trip and rolling the dice. You just can't knock them over more.

Unfortunately the Trip FAQ has been pulled this way and that to support different arguments. Does the fact that the target stands up after you make your trip attempt mean that the trip had no effect? Or that it did, but it didn't stack to make him "more prone"? All we can argue for sure is that you CAN make the roll attempt even if the target is prone.

That being said, I'm of the mind it doesn't take effect. Prone is a singular condition such as blind or dead. In game terms you can't make someone more prone and you can't lengthen the duration as it is solely based upon the person's actions (it lasts until they stand up). This action to end the condition is not interruptible short of killing them with the AoO they provoke. So if something like a Meteor Hammer offers you a different option, such as Dragging, then you could go that route. But if you stuck with the ordinary Trip effect, which is to knock someone prone, then you're out of luck as nothing happens to the target.

In essence, you can make a Trip Roll, beat the target's CMD, and apply whatever the alternate Effect is. For Meteor Hammer, I would call that a matter of "you successfully dragging the target" although you used the Trip maneuver and not the Drag maneuver. I don't know if Drag was an official maneuver at the time Meteor Hammer came out or not, but I find it curious that they didn't just say you could either Trip or Drag with the Hammer. But the point is you could probably drag him, but you can't trip him in the usual manner as he's already prone.


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For the love of all thats polyhedral why is this even a question anymore?

Not just no, core rulebook to the head!

Shadow Lodge

Meteor hammer was introduced in Ultimate Combat and drag was introduced in Advanced Players Guide. I believe the APG came out first. Of course that doesnt mean the weapon hadnt been written along time ago and just added to UC.


BigNorseWolf wrote:

For the love of all thats polyhedral why is this even a question anymore?

Not just no, core rulebook to the head!

Because we're all OCD and have too much time on our hands to overthink the pick apart the littlest things. :P

Shadow Lodge

fretgod99 wrote:
Jacob Saltband wrote:
fretgod99 wrote:
Jacob Saltband wrote:

I think that if your prone you cant be tripped. So if you cant be tripped you cant used meteor hammer to drag someone using the trip combat maneuver. Nothing stopping you from using the drag combat maneuver to drag someone.

Same with seven branched sword. Cant trip cant use the atlernate ability.

And that is certainly a fair interpretation. But my response was intended to demonstrate that there's no violation of common sense or reality to think that someone might be able to trip someone who's already on the ground, particularly if we're talking about dragging.
Thats the thing, I believe you cant trip a prone opponent so the other things cant be used if you cant succeed on a trip. Personally I wouldnt allow it becuase there is a combat maneuver that already does drag.

I understand that. But again, that's not the point I was responding to. The point I was responding to was that it violates common sense and is unimaginable to do any of these things, and for that reason it should not be allowed (among others). I was simply undercutting that reason for thinking it should be disallowed.

Now, that doesn't mean that because something is imaginable that it should be allowed. But it does mean that you shouldn't allow your lack of imagination to disallow something that is both imaginable and feasible.

So what your saying is that because I disagree with you that I have no imagination? :-p

Shadow Lodge

The thing is I can see the chain being able to wrap around a limb/etc of a prone person and be used but not with a trip maneuver.


Meteor Hammer operates through the Trip Mechanics in that it can wrap around a limb or waist. If the target is standing, then it makes sense that you can pull his legs out from under him and make him fall down. Or you could wrap his waist and pull him toward you. If he's already on the ground, you can't really wrap his waist as the ground would be in the way of the weights circumventing his body. But you could still wrap a leg. Pulling on it though isn't going to pull it out from under him as he's already down. So it would make sense that you can drag him closer to you, but you can't knock prone what is already prone. That would be like announcing that I'm going to Stand Up when I'm already standing. Do I provoke from enemies that threaten? I'd say no since I can't perform the action.

Yes, in RL you could take out a supporting limb as the guy gets to his hands and knees or flip him over from back to stomach or vice versa. But in game terms there is no real distinction beyond Prone. The Mechanics are not built to handle anything more subtle than what they give us. You either have the Prone condition or you don't. There's no 'sort of' or 'partially'. Similarly we don't get 'mostly standing' or 'standing extra tall'. We're just standing or we're prone.

(Curious about how a GM would rule attacking a sitting target)...

If anything, I think the biggest convenience of the Meteor Hammer is that you don't have to take the Drag feats to make it work.


Jacob Saltband wrote:
So what your saying is that because I disagree with you that I have no imagination? :-p

Ha! No. I was responding to Common Sense/Frodo.

"If you can't picture it being done, and said action is not found in the rules, then it wasn't intended to be done."
"Can you picture getting an AoO form trying to trip someone who is already prone? How would you even do that? Isn't it the same as just hitting them?"
'It is not common sense, it goes against the English language, and it's not described in the rules. What more is needed?"

Shadow Lodge

fretgod99 wrote:
Jacob Saltband wrote:
So what your saying is that because I disagree with you that I have no imagination? :-p

Ha! No. I was responding to Common Sense/Frodo.

"If you can't picture it being done, and said action is not found in the rules, then it wasn't intended to be done."
"Can you picture getting an AoO form trying to trip someone who is already prone? How would you even do that? Isn't it the same as just hitting them?"
'It is not common sense, it goes against the English language, and it's not described in the rules. What more is needed?"

Sarcasm fretgod99!!

Shadow Lodge

Not sure what 'sitting' is, probably prone.

One of the Paizo staff GM's thinks this about prone.

James Jacobs wrote:
Jacob Saltband wrote:

In your opinion.

If you have the greater trip feat and you attack a prone creature with a trip attack and the numbers you roll say you succeded on said trip attack, do you trigger the greater trip AoO feature for a successful trip attack even if the creature is already prone?

Thanks for your opinion.

If something is prone, it can't be tripped, because it's already prone. For the same reason, things that don't have legs can't be tripped, and things that are not walking on the ground (because they're swimming or flying or whatever) can't be tripped either.

JJ is one of the staff who regularly-ish is GM for the staff games. When they ever have time to have fun anymore.


For reference, here is what James Jacobs had to say about tripping a prone target three years ago:

James Jacobs, Creative Director wrote:
You can't trip someone who is prone. Just like you can't put a sleeping person to sleep, kill someone who's dead, or so on. This is a case where, I would hope, common sense would remove the need to write things down.

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