I am running the Rappan Athuk campaign with a group of PCs and 6 of them died today to a fairly simple trap. For those who own the campaign, Room 2B-35 on page 157 if you want to follow along.
It started with them entering a room that contained a bunch of lit candles and a rug. The rug was magically trapped to make anyone who stepped on it fall asleep (no save) for 24 hours. The candles in the room were magic too, but they were only made to burn indefinitely so long as the party stayed in the room. The party Summoner detect magic'd the room and detected magic on the carpet, but I forgot to mention the candles were magic.
The Oracle said she stepped on the carpet and she fell to the sleep spell. Five remained. The Ranger then carefully searched the room, moving the carpet with his sword instead of touching it, and found a trap door under the carpet. The Orc broke open the door, causing everyone to make a DC 15 will save or fall asleep for 24 hours. Only the Elf Alchemist, the Summoner, and the Ranger's mantis animal companion made the save leaving the Ranger, Fighter, and Oracle unconscious.
The looted the room under the carpet, and were about to set about moving the bodies of their allies to somewhere safe when some giant rats attacked, which they handily took care of. They wanted to bring the bodies of their allies upstairs to a safer area, but neither of them had a high enough STR to move the 300 pound Orc in full plate up a ladder. So they decided to wait in the room with doors closed for safety. This is where the trap began to take effect.
The magical candles began to eat through the rooms oxygen supply and in an hour, I rolled a d6 for the two party members, and the mantis, who were still conscious to see if they noticed the fatigue of suffocation setting in (the roll was determined by the campaign, it was not arbitrary). The two PCs rolled a 4 and a 2, remaining oblivious, while the mantis rolled a 1 and started to panic. It bolted for the door and managed to get it open and flee to the base the party had made on the first floor of the dungeon. The summoner followed, saw what it was doing and figured it was nothing so he came back to the room. I then rolled again an hour later to see if they would notice again (as the opening of the door would allow more fresh air in) and the two awake party members both rolled 3s. They then proceeded to pass out and all 6 of them died of suffocation as the magical candles drained the room of oxygen.
When they asked how they died, I explained it to them and mentioned that the candles were magic which lead to an uproar of me withholding "vital information" from them, which I admitted that I had forgot. The party wasn't incredibly mad, some didn't even mind because they didn't really like the characters they were playing to begin with, with the exception of the Oracle (who happens to be my girlfriend which makes the problem that much more... problematic).
Personally, I don't think the candle thing made a difference. The barbarian might have smashed a few and gave up once it didn't turn a result and the party would have forgot about them in favor for the magic carpet that made people fall asleep.
The party is almost level 6, and there is means for them to come back to life practically free of charge. There are three others who drop in and out of this campaign who could find and bring their bodies to a statue in the dungeon that can cast raise dead on them, and even grant some of them another level to make up for the loss
What do you guys think?
TL;DR: I forgot to mention that candles in a room were magic'd to burn forever, and they drained the room the party was staying in of oxygen, killing everyone. What do?
Those must have been some candles, enchanted to grind through oxygen at that high a rate.
Here's my take on traps involving magic: If you can find them with a simple detect magic spell, they're a pointless trap. It's like putting mines out on top of the ground. It says "Watch your step" but also "I'm not trying very hard to slow you down." So I assume that magical traps don't radiate magic.
That said, by pointing out the magic of the carpet, you've got an inconsistency in rulings. I'd take a mulligan and walk back the TPK.
Uh...it's Rappan Athuk.
This won't be the last time it kills them all. Just go with it.
*cue all posts telling me how rad you are in particular at Rappan Athuk and how it never has killed you in 72 years of playing it*
Once the door was open, how did they suffocate? An open door would allow a constant supply of fresh air to flow in, as long as the next room either had an open door or was relatively large.
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I find it hard to believe that you wouldn't notice the air going bad, and find it silly to let dice determine if they notice before the crucial point. I also find it hard to believe that room is so tightly isolated that no oxygen can come in from outside. I assume the door was closed again after the mantis ran.
Also, unless this is specifically called out as not possible, you can rouse people from sleep by taking a standard action.
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I find it hard to believe that you wouldn't notice the air going bad, and find it silly to let dice determine if they notice before the crucial point. I also find it hard to believe that room is so tightly isolated that no oxygen can come in from outside. I assume the door was closed again after the mantis ran.
Also, unless this is specifically called out as not possible, you can rouse people from sleep by taking a standard action.
Actually I'll reverse my other comment in favor of this. If the roll given is for the players to notice the effects of hypoxia its quite possible they would of died for failing.
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I'm confused, why did the PC's not wake up? They were being dragged around (enough to wake them) There was a battle nearby (enough to wake them) and the other PC's were poking them (enough to wake them). Is it a more powerful trap than just the sleep spell? I don't own the module.
Also, you didn't run suffocation right. They should have been under the effects of Slow Suffocation:
The non-lethal damage they would have taken would have woken everyone up and given plenty of time to get out of the room. The Unconsious > Dying > Dead Suffocation rules only apply in a vacuum/underwater ect where there is literally no air AT ALL. There is plenty of air in the room, it just lacks oxygen.
Lastly, if these are continual flame candles they shouldn't even use any oxygen since continual flame isn't an actual fire.
I vote mulligan.
To clear things up, as there are many misunderstanding, I will directly quote the room from which I am referring to. Players of Rappan Athuk should not read this spoiler
(CR 3)
As soon as anyone enters this room, several candles in small wall
alcoves ignite, dimly illuminating the room. In the center of the room there
is a square red carpet ten feet by ten feet in size. Anyone stepping onto
the carpet falls asleep (no save), and cannot be awakened for 24 hours,
at which time the sleeper awakens automatically (unless suffocated: see
below).
Beneath the carpet there is a trap door to a ten foot by ten foot chamber
underneath the floor level. If the trap door is opened, everyone in the
room must make a DC 15 Will save to avoid falling into the same magical
slumber caused by stepping onto the carpet itself. This is the effect of a
magic effect, not a sleeping gas. Inside the chamber beneath the carpet is
a treasure chest containing 1,000 cp, 207 sp, and 201 gp along with a gem
worth 10 gp. There is also a secret cabinet (DC 20 Perception check to
notice) in the side of the sub-chamber. If this is opened, anyone in the subchamber
must make a DC 15 Will save or fall into enchanted sleep. The
secret cabinet contains a gem worth 100 gp, which sits on a small velvet
cushion (worth 1 gp).
The candles in this room are magical and do not use oxygen. In fact, this
room presents a danger of suffocation if anyone remains within for more
than an hour with the door closed (see the Pathfinder Roleplaying Game
Core Rulebook, Environment, “Suffocation”). The candles continue to
burn merrily as people fall asleep and die from suffocation. A person who
is awake during this period of time has a 1 in 6 chance to notice a creeping
sense of fatigue in the last ten minutes or so before being overcome by
sleep and subsequent death.
ETERNAL SLEEP TRAP CR 3
XP 800
Type magic; Perception DC 22; Disable Device DC 27
Trigger location; Reset automatic
Effect spell effect (modified sleep spell, DC 15 Will save
negates, see room description)
Oh... OHH. Ah. Well I have made a large mistake after reading this over and reading the suffocation rules...
The characters have about 6-7 hours before suffocation sets in. The magic candles have nothing to do it with. I'm not sure how I would have DM the non-lethal damage. I will probably just retcon it out, give them the treasure from the room, and send them on their merry way to die another die.
This looks like another case of the writers not being aware of rules that already exist in PFRPG, and substituting needlessly deadly ones in their stead. I'm going through Rappan Athuk myself (fixing a lot of stat blocks- they also built a ton of NPCs incorrectly) to prep it for play.
Stuff like this is actually just played incorrectly in the book, you'll need to fix it yourself before play. :(
Heh, sounds like a fun room.
This looks like another case of the writers not being aware of rules that already exist in PFRPG, and substituting needlessly deadly ones in their stead. I'm going through Rappan Athuk myself (fixing a lot of stat blocks- they also built a ton of NPCs incorrectly) to prep it for play.
Stuff like this is actually just played incorrectly in the book, you'll need to fix it yourself before play. :(
Well just because they choose not to use those rules doesn't mean they are unaware of them or that they are incorrect, after all it's THEIR product.
According to the way the room is (terribly) written, everyone would have died if EVERYONE failed their save versus the sleep effect. The Non-lethal damage would not have awoken them. But, the people that were awake (or asleep but naturally and not as an affect of the trap) would have been alerted once they took non-lethal damage and had plenty of time to open the door for air.
This part is particularly derp-tastic and makes no sense at all:
Well just because they choose not to use those rules doesn't mean they are unaware of them or that they are incorrect, after all it's THEIR product.This looks like another case of the writers not being aware of rules that already exist in PFRPG, and substituting needlessly deadly ones in their stead. I'm going through Rappan Athuk myself (fixing a lot of stat blocks- they also built a ton of NPCs incorrectly) to prep it for play.
Stuff like this is actually just played incorrectly in the book, you'll need to fix it yourself before play. :(
While you're definitely correct, if they say they are using the Pathfinder rule set personally I think they should stick to the established rules of that set unless there is a good reason not to.
From what I've heard of Rappan Athuk it seems like it's more "rocks fall everybody dies" hard, which I have to say is the reason I didn't care much for AD&D.
/2c
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The magical candles began to eat through the rooms oxygen supply and in an hour, I rolled a d6 for the two party members, and the mantis, who were still conscious to see if they noticed the fatigue of suffocation setting in (the roll was determined by the campaign, it was not arbitrary). The two PCs rolled a 4 and a 2, remaining oblivious, while the mantis rolled a 1 and started to panic. It bolted for the door and managed to get it open and flee to the base the party had made on the first floor of the dungeon. The summoner followed, saw what it was doing and figured it was nothing so he came back to the room. I then rolled again an hour later to see if they would notice again (as the opening of the door would allow more fresh air in) and the two awake party members both rolled 3s. They then proceeded to pass out and all 6 of them died of suffocation as the magical candles drained the room of oxygen.
If the mantis broke open the door, I find it hard to believe that it could be shut tight enough to not let oxygen in, or the bad air from the candles out. It also seems like a poorly written trap as "the candles in this room are magical and do not use oxygen." If they don't use oxygen, then how are they using it up?
-Swiftbrook
Just My Thoughts
I'd also think anyone with even one rank in dungeoneering would notice if a door is air-tight.
Well you have to remember it's an old dungeon that has been converted to Pathfinder. Even the new areas were written for old-school rules and then converted up.
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Call a mulligan back to the point where players would have started taking non-lethal damage; the suffocation rules were not applied properly and your players would have had a legit chance to find a way out while they're taking slow suffocation damage. Gasping for air, they might succeed or they might not. Up to that point, everything seemed to be adjudicated properly, and as you noted, being magic candles had nothing to do with the oxygen level in the room.
I think the idea with this room is that if everyone's asleep and the door is closed, you all die. It's not a standard sleep effect, the non-lethal damage doesn't wake you up, nothing does. Did you say there were guys who made the save and went to sleep of their own accord? Maybe they should have woken up.
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The d6 roll seems like a weird mechanic - it makes more sense to use Perception, K:Dungeoneering, or maybe even Survival or K:Engineering, to notice this structural hazard. I mean, this is something you can be trained to be on guard for, so a skill check rather than a random chance check is called for. And especially K:Dungeoneering is appropriate, although the other ones might be too.
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There's another issue at stake here though - the very concept of oxygen. How much real-world science gets imported into the game world? Do things burn because of oxygen or because of phlogiston, or do all things that can burn do so because they contain pieces of Elemental Fire that can be "liberated"?
Pathfinder is pretty vague on this subject. You suffocate if you can't breathe (strangulation, underwater, vacuum), but that doesn't mean that the consumption of oxygen needs to even be a feature of your fantasy physics.
I wouldn't be surprised if some players assume that a large amount of realworld science doesn't apply - maybe everything discovered after the fifteenth century - and that alchemy is much closer to the truth. There's elements of Air, Fire, Earth and Water after all - if oxygen exists, then what is the Element of Water anyway?
So players can be partially forgiven for not being very conscious of the danger of suffocation, if the core book doesn't list oxygen depletion as an environmental hazard - it's not necessarily something that can happen in every fantasy world.
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Finally, the idea that everyone still awake would start Suffocating in exactly the same round is dubious. Assuming that oxygen is distributed uniformly though the room is dubious. Even so, not everyone should suffocate equally fast, particularly if they're different sizes and races. For example, the halfling might start having trouble before the dwarf does, functioning as a sort of canary in the coal mine. At the very least that should be a new round of knowledge checks to realize the danger afoot; maybe even a Heal check.
That actually has some good dramatic potential; not so much guaranteed death, but it should make players pretty nervous. (Shocking the players by how close the PCs came to death without them seeing the reasonable danger coming, that's always fun as a GM...)
Yet another reason I don't run modules.
What a terrible write-up. What a terrible room. What a mess.
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The trap has stats which include the DC of the perception check to 'spot' the trap. How did that get changed to a flat 1-in-6 chance?
This is as much fun as the DM rolling 1d6 behind a screen, not rolling a 1, then saying, 'Rocks fall; everybody dies.'
The long term solution is to read, and understand the implications of, the encounter you are running before the PCs enter the relevant area, so you can fix what's broken!
Short term there's a few things that need fixing in this case; why is there no save when you stand on the carpet? How does it last 24 hours? How can it affect all the PCs without limit in regard to hit dice? How does a room get trapped like this when it seems to be unusable as a room by the owner without risking death? It must be ridiculously expensive to get a sleep effect which lasts 24 hours, affects unlimited hit dice, allows no save, and resets automatically ad nauseum, just on the slim chance that burglars close the door behind them and suffocate. If you wanted to kill burglars and can afford a no save, resetting, unlimited hit die trap, why choose sleep when you can choose death?
Take the stats of the trap and run it according to Pathfinder rules. Gather your players and admit that you were fooled by the writer of the AP into trusting that what was written was kosher, and you ran it as written without a critical eye, and that error led to it all going pear-shaped. Ask for their understanding, and give them a choice of running the (very much alive) PCs through the room again (but played according to PF rules), or to assume they've just got the treasure unhurt and have just left the room. Then say, 'Rocks fall; nobody dies but that room is buried for ever more!
If you do this, I think your players will be sympathetic. You could even tell your significant other your plan, and ask her for her input. That way you won't have to die alone and unloved. : )
Guys, it's a different play style. That doesnt make it bad design, it's just different then what you see in Paizo AP's. Fast loose and deadly. A lot of people like it. When you go into Rappan Athuk you will get into trouble if you think things will follow all those rules you know by heart. That can be exciting.
When my group hit this room, one guy stepped on the rug and fell asleep, and everyone agreed right away this was a bad place to hang around. They dragged him off the carpet and got out of there. They didn't say "Well we're only 3rd level so there's no way this trap has an infinitely resetting modified sleep effect that we won't wake up from". If they were thinking like that they would die all the time in Rappan Athuk.
RA is what Herolab is made for; roll up some toons beforehand and keep them on a zip drive for print-out when your character bites it.
Make sure everyone is on the same page about how deadly it is and hand-wave new characters rolling up to the area.
Well you have to remember it's an old dungeon that has been converted to Pathfinder. Even the new areas were written for old-school rules and then converted up.
Sounds like it was a poorly converted trap. The candles don't burn through any oxygen and there's nothing indicating the door is air tight, and even if it was, the Mantis opened the door and managed to get out.
I'm in agreement with the people calling for a mulligan on the session.
I agree. I leave my confidence in FGG that most of what is in there is correct, and as long as it's not a game altering (like this case was), the imperfections will go unnoticed by both the party and myself. I'm going to just drop them outside the room with the treasure in their lap, and the room is going to suffer a server case of DM magic and disappear into some other plane of existence.
Toons?RA is what Herolab is made for; roll up some toons beforehand and keep them on a zip drive for print-out when your character bites it.
Make sure everyone is on the same page about how deadly it is and hand-wave new characters rolling up to the area.
MMO slang for PC.
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MMO slang for PC.Toons?RA is what Herolab is made for; roll up some toons beforehand and keep them on a zip drive for print-out when your character bites it.
Make sure everyone is on the same page about how deadly it is and hand-wave new characters rolling up to the area.
Ah. I wish people wouldn't assume that players of Tabletop RPGs are MMO players.
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Ah. I wish people wouldn't assume that players of Tabletop RPGs are MMO players.You seriously couldn't gather the meaning from context, after the words "Herolab" and "roll up"?
Should I?
Should I feel stupid?
I mean, I don't play MMOs, I must be stupid.
Maybe not everyone who plays Pathfinder is intimate with all MMO lingo?
Maybe it's just me.
Ah. I wish people wouldn't assume that players of Tabletop RPGs are MMO players.You seriously couldn't gather the meaning from context, after the words "Herolab" and "roll up"?Should I?
Should I feel stupid?
I mean, I don't play MMOs, I must be stupid.
Maybe not everyone who plays Pathfinder is intimate with all MMO lingo?
Maybe it's just me.
I had to look up what an MMO was but I did know what a toon was. lol
Ah. I wish people wouldn't assume that players of Tabletop RPGs are MMO players.You seriously couldn't gather the meaning from context, after the words "Herolab" and "roll up"?
I know it took me a little while to figure it out. And I still can't see HOW it came to be any slang. Especially in Tabletop RPG uses--wouldn't typing PC be faster than toon?
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Ah. I wish people wouldn't assume that players of Tabletop RPGs are MMO players.You seriously couldn't gather the meaning from context, after the words "Herolab" and "roll up"?Should I?
Should I feel stupid?
I mean, I don't play MMOs, I must be stupid.
Maybe not everyone who plays Pathfinder is intimate with all MMO lingo?
Maybe it's just me.
What I got from the context is that BBT almost certainly figured out what "toon" meant, and probably has known for a long time, but wanted to make a point about MMO players by feigning ignorance so he could point out what a tabletop purist he is.
That's what I got. :)
I know it took me a little while to figure it out. And I still can't see HOW it came to be any slang. Especially in Tabletop RPG uses--wouldn't typing PC be faster than toon?Ah. I wish people wouldn't assume that players of Tabletop RPGs are MMO players.You seriously couldn't gather the meaning from context, after the words "Herolab" and "roll up"?
If you play MMOs enough, you end up doing most of your player interaction over headphones and microphones, in which case "toon" is actually easier and more clear to say than "PC".
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What I got from the context is that BBT almost certainly figured out what "toon" meant, and probably has known for a long time, but wanted to make a point about MMO players by feigning ignorance so he could point out what a tabletop purist he is.
That's what I got. :)
I have no problem with them. Do what you love.
I do have a problem with it being assumed that I love them, know all about them, and then getting openly offended when I say I don't.
It happens more than I care to admit.
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What I got from the context is that BBT almost certainly figured out what "toon" meant, and probably has known for a long time, but wanted to make a point about MMO players by feigning ignorance so he could point out what a tabletop purist he is.
That's what I got. :)
I have no problem with them. Do what you love.
I do have a problem with it being assumed that I love them, know all about them, and then getting openly offended when I say I don't.
It happens more than I care to admit.
LOL, perhaps it's not all about you BBT. Perhaps it's just language people use without thinking because it's become second nature to them. The only one that seems remotely offended here is you.
Thread drift!
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Since this is clearly a DM error to the extreme I think a mulligan and start=over are in order. Thanks though to the OP DM for starting this thread... we all learn from our mistakes and it takes some guts admitting when you are wrong. Make sure when you start over in that Rug room you just change it up a bit... (perhaps a pitrap under the rug?)
Any Rug that puts you into a magic sleep for 24 hours with NO SAVE is borderline ARTIFACT and should be changed, otherwise smart players will take the RUG and try to use it against the DM in other encounters.
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I was just thinking that. They skipped the real treasure of the room, the rug. How much would a rug like that go for? A no save, affects everyone, can't be woken up for 24 hour 10x10 rug? 40,000, 50,000? More?
RA is what Herolab is made for; roll up some toons beforehand and keep them on a zip drive for print-out when your character bites it.
Make sure everyone is on the same page about how deadly it is and hand-wave new characters rolling up to the area.
We started the campaign with 30 characters built ready to go! New toons spawn at Zelkor's Ferry as fast as you can die.
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Why did the elf have to make a save?
Elves are immune to sleep.
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I need a PC with high speed IV's, to pop Stealth Rock first turn for my Sandstorm team.
I will likely want one of the Dream World abilities, so I can breed it into my PC, along with egg moves.
Later, I will pick up a Power Anklet to maximize speed EV at each level, and then equip him with a decent held item.
I may need to visit a Move Tutor to flesh out the rest of his moves.
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Why did the elf have to make a save?
Elves are immune to sleep.
Wow!
This carpet can even affect those that are immune to sleep! It just got bumped from minor to major artifact!
Have some gloves made out of it and touch attack everything in the campaign, including golems, FTW!
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I find it hard to believe that you wouldn't notice the air going bad, and find it silly to let dice determine if they notice before the crucial point. I also find it hard to believe that room is so tightly isolated that no oxygen can come in from outside. I assume the door was closed again after the mantis ran.
Also, unless this is specifically called out as not possible, you can rouse people from sleep by taking a standard action.
Actually, looking the number of death for carbon monoxide inhalation that happen every winter thank to bad heating systems, not noticing is fairly easy. the change in the room air is gradual and you fail to notice it.
The only doubt is about the summoner. Leaving the room and getting a few lugfull of fresh air and then returning in the room should have given him a new check, probably with a bonus.