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I'll tell you what will swing this fight decisively in the monk's favor:
Tanglefoot bags and/or the humble net.
First round, monk easily hits the fighter's touch AC, entangling the fighter whilst the fighter is 10'-15' away. Fighter's movement has now been reduced considerably (with a decent chance of them being totally immobilized). Even if/when the fighter cuts his way free, he's going to be stuck at half movement... and the monk can always throw another bag at him if he wants.
This makes things a LOT easier for a spring-attacking monk.
It keeps the fighter moving, but not from readying and attacking when the monk melees. If the fighter rolls the 15, the monk basically dies.
Fighters could counter with nets. If it hits, the monk has to cut out, or basically die since the full attack will be coming soon.
But once again, this is a stupid contest because the rules are poorly constructed and everybody is just meta-ing against whatever is used.
1) Nets have a max range of 10'. Monks could easily hit fighters with tanglefoots from outside that range.
2) Monks have much better touch AC.
3) Having a net in hand readt to throw precludes the use of bows/two-handed blades until it is thrown.
4) Very, very few fighters carry nets regularly.
If the fighter rolls the 15, the monk basically dies.
And if the fighter rolls a 5 on his save vs quivering palm, he ACTUALLY dies - the odds are roughyl equivalent.
I don't think anyone's refuting that.
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And if the fighter rolls a 5 on his save vs quivering palm, he ACTUALLY dies - the odds are roughyl equivalent.
If the fighter rolls the 15, the monk basically dies.
Monk has 1 shot at the Palm working. Fighters have multiple shots at rolling the 15.
I'm fully aware of the weaknesses of the net. I could have easily said tanglefoot bags as well. Or buying a horse. Or whatever other ridiculous things that have been added to this "fight".
Both sides should just buy an attack dog so they can attack plus trip.
I'm sure there are still ridiculous ideas that haven't been brought up.
Well, to be fair, the monk does actually stand a chance, however low... I don't know that the same could be said for the rogue.
If the contest only allows one fight against each opponent, then the dice favoring the monk could could win that player the money.
It's just slim odds.
I'm fully aware of the weaknesses of the net. I could have easily said tanglefoot bags as well. Or buying a horse. Or whatever other ridiculous things that have been added to this "fight".
Both sides should just buy an attack dog so they can attack plus trip.
I'm sure there are still ridiculous ideas that haven't been brought up.
Doesn't matter if the fighter hits a monk with a tanglefoot bag, because the monk will still be too fast as long as he puts a couple of feat slots into "Fleet" (which increases his base move by 5' each time it's taken)
Off the top of my head, I'd do a build like this:
Human Monk 20
Str 16 (+4 = 20) Dex 15 (+3 = 18) Con 12 Wis 14 Int 8 Cha 8
Feats (17) Dodge, Combat Reflexes, Spring Attack, Deflect Arrows, Power Attack, Lunge, Point Blank Shot, Far Shot, Vital Strike, Improved Initiative, Step Up, Fleet (x6)
Speed: 120 ft
Even if you halve that 120 feet, the monk still has 60' left over, which means he can Spring Attack against a half-speed fighter with impunity (thanks to Lunge).
If the fighter tries his "ready an action to strike" trick, the Monk will just pelt him with shuriken (using flurry and deadly aim). If the fighter tries to switch to a bow, he'll have to drop his sword (putting him at a disadvantage in later rounds). He'll get a few shots off, and then the monk will close and end him in melee.
Doesn't matter if the fighter hits a monk with a tanglefoot bag, because the monk will still be too fast as long as he puts a couple of feat slots into "Fleet" (which increases his base move by 5' each time it's taken)
Off the top of my head, I'd do a build like this:
Human Monk 20
Str 16 (+4 = 20) Dex 15 (+3 = 18) Con 12 Wis 14 Int 8 Cha 8
Feats (17) Dodge, Combat Reflexes, Spring Attack, Deflect Arrows, Power Attack, Lunge, Point Blank Shot, Far Shot, Vital Strike, Improved Initiative, Step Up, Fleet (x6)
Speed: 120 ft
Even if you halve that 120 feet, the monk still has 60' left over, which means he can Spring Attack against a half-speed fighter with impunity (thanks to Lunge).
If the fighter tries his "ready an action to strike" trick, the Monk will just pelt him with shuriken (using flurry and deadly aim). If the fighter tries to switch to a bow, he'll have to drop his sword (putting him at a disadvantage in later rounds). He'll get a few shots off, and then the monk will close and end him in melee.
So, you've made your Quivering Palm/Stunning saves easier for the fighter. Given Ashern's posted build from the last page, what's to keep him from simply exchanging full ranged attacks with you? He's sure as heck gonna win that game.
You rush to melee, he quick-draws falchion and gives you a full-attack with that... which you can't last one round against.
I don't know if this is much of an improvement. And if you can have tangle foots, he can have tangle foots. : shrugs : That seems like a wash to me.
Kind of feels like we're going in circles at this point.
I suppose it would be going in circles if you ignore the relevant point that I made (namely, that with this build, it doesn;t matter if the fighter has tanglefoot bags, because even at half speed this monk is still too fast). Of course, I think a lot of people on both sides are being unfair by not posting and sticking to a consistent build, and instead keeping vague and then saying "well I could do this" whenever someone gets specific.
How is the fighter going to quick-draw the falchion that he dropped on the ground?
I believe he included multiple falchions in his equipment. And I don't think that fighter is concerned with keeping up with the speedy monk... only with peppering him with arrows.
And I've pretty much just been using Ashern's build for any of my comments.
Edit: nope, he/she didn't include it, but it's a simple enough thing to be prepared with.
I'm fully aware of the weaknesses of the net. I could have easily said tanglefoot bags as well. Or buying a horse. Or whatever other ridiculous things that have been added to this "fight".
Both sides should just buy an attack dog so they can attack plus trip.
I'm sure there are still ridiculous ideas that haven't been brought up.
Doesn't matter if the fighter hits a monk with a tanglefoot bag, because the monk will still be too fast as long as he puts a couple of feat slots into "Fleet" (which increases his base move by 5' each time it's taken)
Off the top of my head, I'd do a build like this:
Human Monk 20
Str 16 (+4 = 20) Dex 15 (+3 = 18) Con 12 Wis 14 Int 8 Cha 8
Feats (17) Dodge, Combat Reflexes, Spring Attack, Deflect Arrows, Power Attack, Lunge, Point Blank Shot, Far Shot, Vital Strike, Improved Initiative, Step Up, Fleet (x6)
Speed: 120 ft
Even if you halve that 120 feet, the monk still has 60' left over, which means he can Spring Attack against a half-speed fighter with impunity (thanks to Lunge).
If the fighter tries his "ready an action to strike" trick, the Monk will just pelt him with shuriken (using flurry and deadly aim). If the fighter tries to switch to a bow, he'll have to drop his sword (putting him at a disadvantage in later rounds). He'll get a few shots off, and then the monk will close and end him in melee.
Just no.
Ah, I did not consider the possibility of multiple falchions. A bit silly, but then, not especially sillier than anything else in this scenario.
You might have me there.
As I said, if the fighter is readying, I'm going to plink him with arrows until he moves hoping for a crit, then spring attack when he moves making sure I end up in a position he can't charge to. I have 90 feet of movement with an extra 20 when I need it if I burn a ki point.
How did the fighter get next to the monk?
The horse line was just an Old Spice Homage since Schrodinger's fighter is now on a horse.
If the monk goes toe to toe with the fighter, most times he loses.
But the monk doesn't need to go toe to toe with the fighter to win the combat.
On a battlefield with cover, it's it all monk. Without cover it gets closer, but odds are still in the monks favor.
With magic items, I think it turns more into rocket tag and the fighter probably wins.
There is no position where the fighter can't charge. Terrain was not specified so there is nothing to block the charge, nothing to hide behind and such.
This is kind of stupid set up really. No magic, no terrian, and nothing but core rule book. Add those in and you know who the winner would be? The rogue wins every time. I saw this because the rogue has hide in plain sight as the UC book based on terrian. So just make sure the rogue is in that terrian and they can hide and blast the fighter with magic till fight is over with UMD. With out magic the rogue can't win.
The monk gets a lot better, Crane Style Spring Attack for example. Go ahead, ready an attack. Still that just changes the fighters tactics but the fighter will find this fight much harder to win.
There is no position where the fighter can't charge. Terrain was not specified so there is nothing to block the charge, nothing to hide behind and such.
This is kind of stupid set up really. No magic, no terrian, and nothing but core rule book. Add those in and you know who the winner would be? The rogue wins every time. I saw this because the rogue has hide in plain sight as the UC book based on terrian. So just make sure the rogue is in that terrian and they can hide and blast the fighter with magic till fight is over with UMD. With out magic the rogue can't win.
Yeah, this seems like the key point. Given the conditions, it's pretty much just a "who has a better full attack/damage sequence" contest - and fighters SHOULD win at that. Neither monks nor rogues SHOULD be better than a fighter at standing toe-to-toe and having a slugfest with an opponent.
I see that nobody has considered Master Strike:
Each time the rogue deals sneak attack damage, she can choose one of the following three effects: the target can be put to sleep for 1d4 hours, paralyzed for 2d6 rounds, or slain. Regardless of the effect chosen, the target receives a Fortitude save to negate the additional effect. The DC of this save is equal to 10 + 1/2 the rogue’s level + the rogue’s Intelligence modifier. Once a creature has been the target of a master strike, regardless of whether or not the save is made, that creature is immune to that rogue’s master strike for 24 hours. Creatures that are immune to sneak attack damage are also immune to this ability.
Soooo with improved initiative etc, maybe fleetx2 for increased range, and cheese some intellect, you have the opportunity to kill him in one blow. Add poisons w/ high saves: Black lotus, deathblade, tears of death, purple worm poison, you could run away after 1 hit and watch him die w/in 4 or 5 rounds.
Thoughts?
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Sounds right to me unless Ciretose has another strategy. Nice concise summation!
It was a good summary, with the only thing I would add being that the stunning fist success is 1d6 +1 paralyisis, which is also game over.
Additionally, the monk can run away to heal, either through DD, etherealness, or just literally running.
The same for the fighter, is not like the monk have the super touch AC.
Seriously? You do realize that Monks have probably the best touch ac in the game right?
There is no position where the fighter can't charge. Terrain was not specified so there is nothing to block the charge, nothing to hide behind and such.
Actually the rules were clarified and terrain was specified. There are things for the rogue (and presumably the monk) to hide behind. That stops the charges and greatly increases the more mobile monk's chances for survival.
I see that nobody has considered Master Strike:
Each time the rogue deals sneak attack damage, she can choose one of the following three effects: the target can be put to sleep for 1d4 hours, paralyzed for 2d6 rounds, or slain. Regardless of the effect chosen, the target receives a Fortitude save to negate the additional effect. The DC of this save is equal to 10 + 1/2 the rogue’s level + the rogue’s Intelligence modifier. Once a creature has been the target of a master strike, regardless of whether or not the save is made, that creature is immune to that rogue’s master strike for 24 hours. Creatures that are immune to sneak attack damage are also immune to this ability.Soooo with improved initiative etc, maybe fleetx2 for increased range, and cheese some intellect, you have the opportunity to kill him in one blow. Add poisons w/ high saves: Black lotus, deathblade, tears of death, purple worm poison, you could run away after 1 hit and watch him die w/in 4 or 5 rounds.
Thoughts?
I did think of this, but it runs into the same problem as the Monk's Quivering Palm. Rogue can only use it once (against the Fighter), and the save is the fighters strongest. I'm not very knowledgeable about poisons, but if there's one that use a WILL save, things start looking up for the rogue :)
The monk will never get a chance to use his save-or-lose/die more than 2 or 3 times before he's dead.
Also, looking at my falchion build...the crit feats are pretty unneeded, it seems. 2d4+35 power attacking is an average of 120 damage on a crit (6d4+105)...once you crit, if the monk or rogue isn't dead, he's pretty close. No need to waste 4 feats on the crit focus line.
What about major magic:
1. Grease - Hold action, wait 'till fighter charges, or just grease him, and watch him fall down (ac penalties) (this strategy doesn't require a will-save, and is a free sneak attack. This will also undoubtedly grant you a check to watch him fall down). He also cannot move, and will most likely fall if he tries. This spell lasts for 20 minutes)
2. Charm person, and pwn. (harder to do, as they get a +5)
3. Color Spray - Stunned - Drops everything, loses dex, can't take actions, penalty to ac.
DC for will-saves of 2 and 3 are: 11+int so.... well cheese it if you want you could get it around 15.
Base for fighter is +6. That means he's gotta roll a 9 or better.
So after a few rounds of trying and trying, you will eventually hit.
If anyone tries to argue against Minor/Major Magic then this whole argument is stupid.
#1: It's a spell-like ability
#2: You're removing one of the most important class skills from the game.
edit: fixed spellings :/
The same for the fighter, is not like the monk have the super touch AC.Seriously? You do realize that Monks have probably the best touch ac in the game right?
without magic items would be like what? 25 at most.
a fighter level 20, with 18 in Dex will only fail with a 1.
Well, for reference, Princeimrahal's build had 18 dex, 14 wis, and dodge feat. So touch AC of 10 +4 dex +7 monk (level and wis bonuses) +1 dodge. That's 22. Fighter has BAB 20 and presumably a dex 14+, that touch AC is still a joke.
Hey guys. So in the OP's scenario, I am the guy who is supposed to bring said fighter to game with me this Sunday.
How this came up: We have in our group of lvl 11's a semi-min/maxy paladin and a guy who is playing a fighter. In my first session with them I find out a few things.
1. the paladin does way more damage than the fighter
2. as ashern said, the fighter is a 1h axe/shield dwarf fighter who has traditionally "sacrificed damage for feats that give good map mobility." I haven't looked at the guy's sheet, but during game, he didn't really do much moving.Anyway, the fighter started complaining mid game that vital strike was worthless unless you could use it in your full round attack on your first hit. I said that would be super broken. After game, the DM basically asked me and another guy why it would be a bad idea to let him vital strike on his first hit then take the rest of his attacks. Arguments ensued. I broke out the iphone to read him DPR Olympics of fighter damage, but said DM "doesn't trust some internet hack's numbers." /facepalm
Anywho...
Let me show you what I've got so far and re-post the rules as the DM has set them out.
1. Bring a fighter/monk/rogue who is optimized for damage output
2. Core only
3. No magic items (master work and strength bows ok)
4. for stats we have to use the 20-point point buy
5. 20th lvl
6. we start 30 feet apart and the rogue has some things to hide behind for stealth/cover/concealment purposes (hence imp precise shot)
7. Winner gets $20
For Green Arrow:
You probably want to ditch Manyshot and Weapon Spec/bow. I suggest picking up Vital Strike and Greater Vital Strike to really punish with readied actions or charges. It's a pity you can't take Furious Focus so you have no penalty on single attacks with a weapon.
For all you Crane Stylist bonzos, remember Crane Style works for Fighters as well as monks, and generates an AoO. So Readied Action + AoO is going to get past the monk's Crane Wing. The Fighter would be silly not to take the feat...it makes him invulnerable to Spring Attacks and that Quivering Palm.
Note that you probably don't want to Power Attack with the Falchion. Why? Because a Crit ends the game...therefore, you want all your attacks to hit. At +31/26/21/16, your cumulative chance to hit is 95/95/90/70 against AC 24, for 350% chance of a hit, which mathematically is basically a crit every round. If you don't insta-kill him from the damage, he's got a DC 30 save or be stunned, another to not be blinded, and then he's staggered and dazed, can't full attack and can't really move. He's going to die.
In all serious, with the killing power of crits, you might want to go TWf with a kukri set just to maximize crits. mathematically, a full attack with kukri's will generate a crit every round, and the monk will get locked and die.
Seriously, however, I'd just use a scimitar so you can quick-draw a shield. Take a Heavy Shield you can quick draw or stow, take Dodge +1, and fight defensively. Your AC will be 30...if you could afford a 13 Int, it'd be 35 from Expertise and he basically couldn't hit you. If he blows a ki point and goes defensive, you would still hit on a 4 against his AC 31 while you are fighting defensively.
AC 30 means he needs a 10 just to hit you with his primary attack, and odds rapidly drop off thereafter. His full attack will simply be whiffing at the air.
Note, you can two hand a scimitar for the extra str damage if you only get a single attack. Stow and draw the shield as needed.
The last option is the Reach Tripper. Grab a Trip weapon and the Trip feats, ready an action to trip him when he comes up...you should have about an 80% chance. That generates an AoO for you and foils his attack and Spring Attacking. Getting up from a Trip generates an attack, withdrawing from your range then forces an AoO or makes him tumble against your CMD, possibly doing another trip, and then you just full attack him dead.
Last is a switch hitting archery build. Focus on killing him with arrows. Take the Spec tree, max your arrow damage, make sure to take iMProved Init. If you crit with an arrow, he dies. Take Improved Crit and weapon focus so you can crit with a melee weapon if he wants to full attack you. If you get a full attack off on him with arrows, you might just kill him in the first round.
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Note that magic favors the fighter, not the monk. A Sword and Board Fighter can hit a walk-around AC of 57 or so, which makes him basically unhittable by Rogue or Monk, save with Touch Attacks. The monk can get his AC high, but not high enough to consistently evade the +43 or higher bonus to hit of a f/20. A Rapid SHotting fighter who goes first could annihilate the monk in one round.
==Aelryinth
I agree with your agumentation Aelryinth, but you're doing the math towards crits wrong. You cannot sum up crit%:P
You've got a 350% percent chance of landing attacks. Mathematically, you crit 6/20 attacks with an auto confirm. Mathematically, that's 21/20 per round of critting...you should crit once every round, by the odds.
And if you crit, he dies, by damage or by stunlock.
==Aelryinth
Why wouldn't an intense crit build be exactly in line with "really dealing damage", out of curiosity?
You've got a 350% percent chance of landing attacks. Mathematically, you crit 6/20 attacks with an auto confirm. Mathematically, that's 21/20 per round of critting...you should crit once every round, by the odds.
And if you crit, he dies, by damage or by stunlock.
==Aelryinth
No - thats not correct.
you have 30% chance to crit.
that means two hits have a chance of critting at least once of 1-0.7²
three hits have a chance of 1-0,7³. depending on the attack bonus of hit number 4 it is 1-0,7³*{H4}.
In general its: 1- PRODUCT (1-Hi) with i={1,2,...,n } (n as number of attacks) and Hi as Chance to crit with Hit number "i".
Power Attack here hurts more then it helps. Normally, stat boosters and magic would 'buy off' the penalty for Power Attack, and you'd keep the same full attack chances, roughly.
Here, you want to crit, and that means you want to hit. If the monk is at AC 28, GA is Power Attacking, his last attack is a +10...he needs an 18 to hit. That's automatically a crit and a confirm...but it also means he misses on a 15, 16, or 17, which are also crits, confirms, and kills. He would also do normal damage on a 12-14., or a 7+ with his third attack.
Do the math. In this circumstance, going against an AC of 28, he's better off hitting as often as he can, instead of Power Attacking for big damage, unless he's only getting a single attack...and if the monk has blown Ki and is fighting defensive, he's best just smacking the guy for auto damage and the crit chance.
Note that the fighter doesn't need a high Str score...he can max out Dex, and rely on Weapon Spec and Training for damage, and go looking fully for the crits with a finesseable weapon(s). Someone pointed out a build where he had a 24 Dex in Mithral Plate, which is AC 26. The Monk noted above would need a 6/11/16/20 to hit him with a full attack, and that's before taking a Dodge feat and fighting defensively or anything...or using a shield. If he only has a single Attack, Power Attack or Deadly Aim provide the additional damage (and much cheaper then Vital Strikes).
==Aelryinth
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The same for the fighter, is not like the monk have the super touch AC.Seriously? You do realize that Monks have probably the best touch ac in the game right?
without magic items would be like what? 25 at most.
a fighter level 20, with 18 in Dex will only fail with a 1.
If only the monk had a way to deflect ranged attacks...
You've got a 350% percent chance of landing attacks. Mathematically, you crit 6/20 attacks with an auto confirm. Mathematically, that's 21/20 per round of critting...you should crit once every round, by the odds.
And if you crit, he dies, by damage or by stunlock.
==Aelryinth
No - thats not correct.
you have 30% chance to crit.
that means two hits have a chance of critting at least once of 1-0.7²
three hits have a chance of 1-0,7³. depending on the attack bonus of hit number 4 it is 1-0,7³*{H4}.
In general its: 1- PRODUCT (1-Hi) with i={1,2,...,n } (n as number of attacks) and Hi as Chance to crit with Hit number "i".
You're getting too technical.
you've a 6/20 chance at a crit.
Over 3.5 attacks, you basically should crit once. In the long run, that is exactly what will happen. If you want to niggle over individual attacks, you are exactly correct, or a very small subset of attacks.
But, on average, over time, you're going to crit once a round. Sometimes it'll be less, sometimes more, but on average.
==Aelryinth
If only the monk had a way to deflect ranged attacks...The same for the fighter, is not like the monk have the super touch AC.Seriously? You do realize that Monks have probably the best touch ac in the game right?
without magic items would be like what? 25 at most.
a fighter level 20, with 18 in Dex will only fail with a 1.
If only enemies were restricted to throwing one tanglefoot bag in a round.
==Aelryinth
no, thats not true. You're wrong there. Chances of critting once are pretty high, but you cannot say you crit once per turn because chances are still ~20% to not crit at all on your turn.
You've got a 350% percent chance of landing attacks. Mathematically, you crit 6/20 attacks with an auto confirm. Mathematically, that's 21/20 per round of critting...you should crit once every round, by the odds.
And if you crit, he dies, by damage or by stunlock.
==Aelryinth
No - thats not correct.
you have 30% chance to crit.
that means two hits have a chance of critting at least once of 1-0.7²
three hits have a chance of 1-0,7³. depending on the attack bonus of hit number 4 it is 1-0,7³*{H4}.
In general its: 1- PRODUCT (1-Hi) with i={1,2,...,n } (n as number of attacks) and Hi as Chance to crit with Hit number "i".
You're getting too technical.
you've a 6/20 chance at a crit.
Over 3.5 attacks, you basically should crit once. In the long run, that is exactly what will happen. If you want to niggle over individual attacks, you are exactly correct, or a very small subset of attacks.But, on average, over time, you're going to crit once a round. Sometimes it'll be less, sometimes more, but on average.
==Aelryinth
Well, this is a math nerd thread; getting technical about the details is to be expected.
no, thats not true. You're wrong there. Chances of critting once are pretty high, but you cannot say you crit once per turn because chances are still ~20% to not crit at all on your turn.
There is always a chance to not crit, but what he is saying is that the mathmatically you should crit. If you have a 30% chance to crit then the 4th hit should be in the critical threat range provided your lowest BAB attack is high enough to hit their AC with a 15 on the dice.
There is no guarantee of a crit, but mathematically speaking, assuming we have perfect die and so one you will crit.
You should hit each number group at least once over 4 rolls.
1-5
6-10
11-15
16-20
In the 11-15 group you might not hit the 15, but anything in the 16-20 group is crit.
actually no - that's definitifly not how probability works. You ignore the fact that same "group" can be hit more often, so you dont have 1 crit on average with a perfect dice. You have like 8 crits on 10 full attacks on average.
Power Attack here hurts more then it helps. Normally, stat boosters and magic would 'buy off' the penalty for Power Attack, and you'd keep the same full attack chances, roughly.
Here, you want to crit, and that means you want to hit. If the monk is at AC 28, GA is Power Attacking, his last attack is a +10...he needs an 18 to hit. That's automatically a crit and a confirm...but it also means he misses on a 15, 16, or 17, which are also crits, confirms, and kills. He would also do normal damage on a 12-14., or a 7+ with his third attack.
Do the math. In this circumstance, going against an AC of 28, he's better off hitting as often as he can, instead of Power Attacking for big damage, unless he's only getting a single attack...and if the monk has blown Ki and is fighting defensive, he's best just smacking the guy for auto damage and the crit chance.
But the Monk CAN'T get his AC that high. Not without having no damage potential at all. That said, in the interest of fairness and because I actually do love the monk class and would like to see it win (I also love rogue, but that's a lost cause), I will attempt a build that can beat a level 20 fighter.
The goal will be to embrace the fact that the only way a monk is winning this is by a lucky failed save on the fighter's part leading to a coup de grace or two or three...however many it takes to kill him off. Since str is not needed and we're looking to buff AC, stun save DC, and survivability, the race will be dwarf. Halfling is tempting for the size bonuses, but ah well.
"Shady"
Dwarf Monk 20
Starting: Str 10, Dex 16, Con 16, Int 7, Wis 19, Cha 5
Final: Str 10, Dex 16, Con 16, Int 7, Wis 24, Cha 5
*****EDIT: I forgot Timeless Body! Actual final stats are..
Str 10, Dex 16, Con 16, Int 10, Wis 27, Cha 8
Kinda makes me want to notch that starting wis 19 up to 20 some how...*****
Feats: Weapon Finesse, Dodge, Toughness, Extra Ki, Spring Attack, Wind Stance, Improved Initiative, Point Blank and Rapid Shot, some others that matter less...
Tactics: Shady is not a smart nor charming man, but he's keenly aware of his own inability to fight worth a damn. Luckily, he finds ways to win with doing a little fighting as possible. This is exemplified in his fighting strategy's tenets.
1. Use Poison! Lots of it! Monk is immune to it, slather it all over like it's baby oil! Each body part is its own unarmed strike possibility if not several. Try to go for contact poisons so even if your feeble strikes glance off his armor, the poison still does its job. You could walk into the fight with poisoned... knee strikes (x2), elbows (x2), fists (x2), headbutt, palm strikes (x2), kicks (x2), shins (x2), shoulder tackles (x2), forearms (x2), and many more! Every attack, inflict a poison! Con damage poisons make each failed fort save allow the next effect in easier!
Also, be sure to carry a ton of poisoned shuriken to flurry with until the dope closes into melee. Again, if possible contact poisons so you don't have to care about his stupid full plate.
Isn't poison use evil/non-lawful?
Good question! Both are debatable, especially if it's evil, as many of nature's creatures use poison. In any case, monk can be evil. The lawful part... it's typically illegal to purchase poison, but Lawful does not necessarily = following local laws. Maybe you are devout to a snake god and see poison use as a core part of your faith. In any case, you lose no class features for being an "Ex-Monk."
2. Exploit that Empty Body! Do not stick around anywhere near the fighter! Distance isn't enough, put a whole PLANE of separation between you two. Use it to heal up maybe, but only if desperate. Also, your etherealness lasts 1 min. Guess how long it takes for 2ndary poison damage to hit? I tell you, this was made to go together, baby!
3. Spam those fort saves! Goes in line with #1, but yeah. Every round you should be hitting that poor fighter full of as much poison as possible +1 stun, + quivering palm on round 1. You need him to fail a fort save at least twice to win (Imp. Great Fortitude), so chuck them out as fast as possible.
4. Don't get impatient! You have all the time in the world to hang out as a ghost and watch the fighter die from poison. Any round he would be able to full attack you when his turn comes up, GET OUT OF THERE! Go ethereal, hang around a bit. Frustrate him. Let that poison do its work. When you come back, do so far away and begin peppering him w/ poisoned shuriken some more. If you want to escape w/o going ethereal, use Abundant Step to go as high up as possible near a wall. Fall as slowly as you can, chucking shuriken on the way down.
5. Break out that dwarven heavy pick! He's gonna go paralyzed eventually. When he does, have at him w/ your coup de grace! Consider full attacking some more to extend the paralysis / do more con damage first, however.
With these tactics, you may well be able to subdue that Fighter over 50% of the time. Go forth, and be cheesy!
:D
I don't think math, or even a "perfect die" works like that.There is no guarantee of a crit, but mathematically speaking, assuming we have perfect die and so one you will crit.
You should hit each number group at least once over 4 rolls.
1-5
6-10
11-15
16-20In the 11-15 group you might not hit the 15, but anything in the 16-20 group is crit.
I am sure it does. The chance of a particular group getting hit more than once is less than ideal.
Each group mathmatically has a 25% chance of getting hit each time the die are rolled. That means each group has a 12.5 percent chance of getting hit twice. However the the chance of any group getting hit twice are lot less than any group getting hit once.It is just like flipping a coin. The chances of getting head or tails twice if you flip the coin twice is only 25%.
The same math applies to the persistent metamagic feat because it gives you a higher chance of failure.