Or how about this for fun........
What if the Monk just uses..............wait for it.............Sunder/Disarm and appropriate feats for Dodge Mobility Spring attack.
Even if the fighter has Adamantite everything the Monk can destroy it all in a few hits. Then the fighter is just as naked as the Monk.
Step up is not core
You might want to check page 135 of the Core Rulebook.
what is the monk doing on a horse?
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Essentially, the whole fight is a horrible comparison with ridiculous rules.
Core rule book no magic items..........
Well........Pathfinder put out supplements to improve classes that already exist.
This is sort of like saying....If I put Bruce Lee in a fight against a US Marine, and took away the soldier's guns.......and took away the soldier's grenades........and took away the soldier's vehicles........and took away the soldier's weapons making this an unarmed fight...........and put the fighters in a 10x10 foot room.
The soldier would stand no chance for victory against Bruce Lee.
If I took a human, and put her up against an Alien, and took away all of her guns, and gave her a sharpened pencil.......The Alien would totally win.
If I took a baby, and put him in a crib. And then I took the big red button that launches all of the nukes in that crib..... the baby would totally destroy the world within 2 hours.
The DM is constraining the rules to prove his point. In a real game, the DM is simply wrong.
it seems like everybody who thinks the fighter would be more likely to win
is agreeing that the restricted rules are in FAVOR of the fighter winning, not the other way around. i agree the rules are wierd, mostly in the no magic, which is a core assumption... certainly at 20th level (at 1st or 2nd no magic is reasonable and normal obviously). whether or not to use non-core sources isn't wierd, the game was designed to be played with only core, and it works fine that way. may groups who aren't rules reading junkies play exactly like that.
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As I said, if the fighter is readying, I'm going to plink him with arrows until he moves hoping for a crit, then spring attack when he moves making sure I end up in a position he can't charge to. I have 90 feet of movement with an extra 20 when I need it if I burn a ki point.
How did the fighter get next to the monk?
The horse line was just an Old Spice Homage since Schrodinger's fighter is now on a horse.
If the monk goes toe to toe with the fighter, most times he loses.
But the monk doesn't need to go toe to toe with the fighter to win the combat.
On a battlefield with cover, it's it all monk. Without cover it gets closer, but odds are still in the monks favor.
With magic items, I think it turns more into rocket tag and the fighter probably wins.
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How do you get to the plinking, exactly?
>Fighter readies action to attack when you're adjacent. End of turn.
>Monk stands his ground, fires arrows. Readied action is never triggered. End of turn.
>Fighter quick draws bow, unleashes considerably more arrows. End of turn.
>Monk rethinks strategy.
As I said earlier, shot on the run (Mobility and Dodge are both monk feats) back behind cover or to activate the 20% concealment in addition to being able to deflect one of the arrows.
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You can only spring attack once and still saty out of the charge range. monk does not have bow proficiency, so or you use shuriknes o use a feat, even with the fighter automiss a hit every turn i bet he can outdamage the monk in an ranged contest. If the monk uses the bow then no flurry, if flurrying with shurikens DR will eat mos of the monk damage.As I said, if the fighter is readying, I'm going to plink him with arrows until he moves hoping for a crit, then spring attack when he moves making sure I end up in a position he can't charge to. I have 90 feet of movement with an extra 20 when I need it if I burn a ki point.
How did the fighter get next to the monk?
The monk has crossbow proficiency, and 16 feats (17 if human).
I'm not getting in a ranged contest, I'm making sure he doesn't ready an action to stop me from spring attacking with either death or paralysis in a given round.
Another part of the Quivering Palm rules that's worth noting:
"Otherwise, if the monk strikes successfully and the target takes damage from the blow, the quivering palm attack succeeds."
Dump strength too much to get wisdom high for a better save DC, and the quivering palm might end up missing and going to waste, and there's a small but non-zero chance of it bouncing off the fighter's DR.
Another part of the Quivering Palm rules that's worth noting:
"Otherwise, if the monk strikes successfully and the target takes damage from the blow, the quivering palm attack succeeds."
Dump strength too much to get wisdom high for a better save DC, and the quivering palm might end up missing and going to waste, and there's a small but non-zero chance of it bouncing off the fighter's DR.
Which is roughly the same chance that quivering palm has to end the fight in 1 hit.
As far as the crossbow and DR, I think you're missing the point:
Fighter readies an action for when the monk closes
Monk launches a bolt for 1 point of damage
Monk is uninjured and Fighter with no way to heal now has 199 HP (or whatever)
Fighter readies an action waiting for monk to close
Monk launches a bolt for 1 point of damage
Monk is uninjured and Fighter with no way to heal now has 198 HP
The other thing to consider is that if the fighter is specialized in HtH his to hit bonus and damage go way down if not using his "signature weapon" (as seen in the other thread about monk's and fighters). I don't know if it's enough, but you add that and let the monk take advantage of terrain, and it's not such a sure win anymore.
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So the net gain here is a miss chance and maybe a couple points of damage? How long does the monk plan to keep that up? Sounds like just another way to get into a Mexican standoff, because the fighter's just going to start readying to fire his bow as soon as the monk leaves his hypothetical cover.
This is only if the fighter is doing nothing but readying an action. The fighter stands and does nothing, so I plink at him using shot on the run until he does something. It isn't a lot of damage, but it is net advantage to me, so why not. I might get a crit or two and make it worthwhile.
Once he does something, he isn't readying an action, so I can spring attack him without any real consequence.
If there is any object of any size, I can use it to prevent charge attacks and get cover from against ranged attacks. If not, I get a 20% miss chance as long as I keep moving, plus one auto miss.
I only need the quivering palm or stunning fist to work once, and I can try it up to 20 times.
Unarmed strike does 2d10 plus strength, so a 16 overcomes the DR.
Unarmed strike does 2d10 plus strength, so a 16 overcomes the DR.
Sure, but on 20 point buy a 16 in strength eats up half your points. Combine that with the high wisdom you advocated earlier, and your monk is looking at tens in Dex and Con.
MAD hurts a lot when you can't get any stat-boosts.
Yup, monk is objectively screwed, probability says so. End of story.
On the other hand, what if the fighter rolls really badly? Not being funny here, but I play this game with dice - I don't compare tables to see who loses. Have I been doing it wrong?
Yup, monk is objectively screwed, probability says so. End of story.On the other hand, What if the fighter rolls really badly? Not being funny here, but I play this game with dice - I don't compare tables to see who loses. Have I been doing it wrong?
Of course if the fighter keep rolling badly and the monk keep rolling good the monk will win. So, the monk attack with quivering palm and hit because he rolls high. The fighter rolls extremely low on his save: tries again and rolls really low again. The fighter dies. The odds of that happening have been calculated, it's not impossible but it's extremely unlikely.
Of course if the fighter keep rolling badly and the monk keep rolling good the monk will win. So, the monk attack with quivering palm and hit because he rolls high. The fighter rolls extremely low on his save: tries again and rolls really low again. The fighter dies. The odds of that happening have been calculated, it's not impossible but it's extremely unlikely.Yup, monk is objectively screwed, probability says so. End of story.On the other hand, What if the fighter rolls really badly? Not being funny here, but I play this game with dice - I don't compare tables to see who loses. Have I been doing it wrong?
Thanks, Crysknife. I was just worried about Probability making all these definitive statements before Outcome said anything. Carry on.
Bows are 1d8.
The readied melee attack assumes the monk does not start with cover and will enter into melee with spring attack.
Pointlessness overkill. Math kills the monk.
It's core only, so Crane Style is out.
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So you hit the monk with one ranged attack that won't kill the monk, and the monk hits you with an attack that could kill you.
And if the monk gets hurt, the monk spends a ki point to get 20 hit points back.
And as has been pointed out to me on other issues, crane wing isn't core, and even if it was you can't do it and ready an action.
So to half-ass stat out a monk.
Human
Str 16 (10)
Dex 15 (7)
Con 12 (2)
Int 8 (-2)
Wisdom 15 (7) +2 Human, + 5 Bonuses = 22
Charisma 7 (-4)
Stunning save DC = 26
AC = 24 (10 + 5 Monk + 6 wis +2 Dex +1 dodge)
Feats
Monk Bonus Feats
1. Deflect Arrows.
2. Dodge
6. Mobility
10. Spring Attack
14. Medusa's wrath
18. Improved Critical (unarmed)
Other feats
1. Point blank shot
3. Toughness
5. Power attack
7. Shot on the run
9. Deadly Aim
11.Wind Stance
13.Endurance
15.Die Hard
17.Weapon Focus (unarmed)
19.Rapid reload
IF I understand what has been posted, Ciretose is suggesting the monk only use ranged attacks to draw the fighter out of his readied melee attack strategy. It's a griefing tactic that can deal roughly 7 damage per round assuming a hit -- which he seems only capable of doing at about a 50% rate. Given that, it'd take somewhere over 30 rounds to take down the fighter with this tactic (again, assuming a 50% hit-rate).
So the fighter's response (by the above poster's suggestions) is to draw bow and unleash hell... which does quite a bit more damage, but not enough to drop the monk in one go. Ciretose's monk then takes that opportunity to rush in for a Quivering Palm attack. High chance of landing the blow, but the fighter has a high chance of saving out of it, at which point the fighter either switches back to readying actions or continues to pound on the monk with his bow (mostly depending on whether or not the monk retreats back again -- and he pretty much has to because giving the fighter a full-attack in melee is suicide).
At this point, the monk has to choose, does he keep trying for spring attack stuns -- attempting to fish out the fighter's bad fort save rolls -- or stop to use his standard action to heal himself?
Healing himself pretty much only gives the fighter another full-attack of pincushioning him with arrows, so it's kind of a losing strategy (in my mind, anyway).
I might have missed something, though.
Then the fighter quickdraw a bow full attack and cause more than 1 point of damage.
Now the fighter have not readied an attack, but the monk can not spring attack and stay away from a charge, so if the attack miss or the fighter make the save agains uivering palm/stunning fist the fighter use the carge action.
The only hopes for the monk is that the fighter do not make his save.
Except the Monk now has DR 10 against the fighter who is no longer using their specialized weapon, the monk also has defelct arrows and, if you read my post, cover. Top that off with the Fighters to hit bonus and damage goes way down when not using his signature weapon, and it's back to being a fight.
You've also missed that if a fighter doesn't hold action, the monk is free to close and stunning fist.
Again, I'm not saying the monk will win, but it will be a fight that comes down to die rolls and not just the fighter walking all over him.
Then the fighter quickdraw a bow full attack and cause more than 1 point of damage.
Now the fighter have not readied an attack, but the monk can not spring attack and stay away from a charge, so if the attack miss or the fighter make the save agains uivering palm/stunning fist the fighter use the carge action.
The only hopes for the monk is that the fighter do not make his save.
Except the Monk now has DR 10 against the fighter who is no longer using their specialized weapon, the monk also has defelct arrows and, if you read my post, cover. Top that off with the Fighters to hit bonus and damage goes way down when not using his signature weapon, and it's back to being a fight.
You've also missed that if a fighter doesn't hold action, the monk is free to close and stunning fist.
Again, I'm not saying the monk will win, but it will be a fight that comes down to die rolls and not just the fighter walking all over him.
The above fighter has Weapon Focus and Greater Weapon focus in both Falchion and Longbow, so his Penetrating Strikes work for both -- bypassing the DR of the monk.
Yes, if the fighter doesn't ready a melee attack, the monk is free to spring attack + quivering palm/stunning fist. The point being that he has only a slightly better chance of landing the unarmed attack than the fighter is to save out of the effect.
I love monks, but the odds seem to be stacked against him unless there's something I"m missing.
Sample crit-fishing fighter build
Half-Elf Fighter 20
Starting: Str 19, Dex 16, Con 14, Int 7, Wis 10, Cha 7
Final: Str 22, Dex 18, Con 14, Int 7, Wis 10, Cha 7
HP: ~194 (20d10 +40 +20 toughness +20 favored class)
AC: 24 (10 +9 armor +4 dex +1 dodge)
Touch: 15; FF: 19
Saves: Fortitude +16, Reflex +10, Will +6
BAB +20; CMB +26; CMD 41
Initiative +8
Speed: 30 ft
Full Attack:
Falchion +33/+28/+23/+18 (2d4+17, S, 15-20/x3)
w/ Power Attack: +27/+22/+17/+12 (2d4+35, S, 15-20/x3)
Armor Spikes +29/+24/+19/+14 (1d6+8, P, 20/x2)
w/ Power Attack: +23/+18/+13/+8 (1d6+24, P, 20/x2)
Longbow +28/+23/+18/+13 (1d8+9, P, 20/x3, 110 ft)
Feats:
1 Skill Focus (Perception) [Half-Elf]
1 Power Attack
1F Weapon Focus (Falchion)
2F Dodge
3 Great Fortitude
4F Weapon Specialization (Falchion)
5 Improved Initiative
6F Lunge
7 Imp. Greater Fortitude
8F Improved Critical (Falchion)
9 Toughness
10F Greater Weapon Focus (Falchion)
11 Critical Focus
12F Penetrating Strike
13 Staggering Critical (Fort DC 30 partial)
14F Greater Weapon Specialization (Falchion)
15 Blinding Critical (Fort DC 30 partial)
16F Greater Penetrating Strike
17 Stunning Critical (Fort DC 30 partial)
18F Critical Mastery
19 Step Up
20F Quickdraw
Skills: Perception +28 (20 ranks +2 racial +6 focus)
Weapon Training: Heavy Blades +4, Bows +3, Close +2 and +1 something else
Equipment: Masterwork everything, basically. Bow has +6 str rating. Backup copies of weapons, plus armor spikes, daggers, and clubs and whatnot. Wears mstwk. mithral or adamantine (doesn't really matter) full plate.
Tactics: Has bow drawn, falchion(s) sheathed. Softens up target with arrows until within or close to melee range. Drops bow and quickdraws sword at that point. Threatens with armor spikes while bow is in use.
You're only using 2 hands when shooting the projectile weapon, otherwise reloading it would be impossible. Out of turn, that bow/xbow is in one hand and the other is free to deflect arrows.
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Although that's logical, I remember Paizo saying a wizard with a quarter staff arcane bond would need to do a concentration check due to not "wielding" it properly. Did they ever turn that?
If this is the case, if a monk is using another 2H weapons with reach during another character's turn frees up a hand to Deflect Arrows, does he provoke with his weapon?
Provided the monk can get off 20 attacks, which isn't a certainty.Let’s look at how I see it playing out and you tell me where I am wrong.
If the monk wins initiative,
As the Spartans said to Alexander: "If."
the monk spring attacks a quivering palm and gets behind cover.
Is there cover?
The monk can move at least 90 feet, and if he can get behind cover he is safe from range and charge attacks.
Why would the fighter bother? He can just wait for the monk to come to him with a readied action.
Rinse, repeat with paralyzing attacks if quivering palm fails, doing 2d10 + str damage each attack with functionally adamantine weapons.
Which don't get past the fighter's DR5/-, while the fighter has a falchion and a readied action. Each time he hits the monk (and at his attack bonus he misses on a '1') he has a 30% chance of a critical hit, no confirmation roll required. From the figures I crunched, one critical hit kills the monk dead. The monk could have a 30% chance of succeeding with his quivering palm/stunning fist attack, but the fighter with Imp. Great Fortitude gets a re-roll. The monk gets not re-roll from being cut in half.
If the fighter wins initiative, they need to drop the monk in one round, presumably from range, with at least one attack auto missing, or I do the above. If he tries to ready an action to hit me when I spring, I wait him out.
He can wait as long as you can - longer, he has better Con.
If I need to heal, I go ethereal, heal, then come back. I could also get shot on the run (Mobility is a monk feat) and plink away while hoping for crits until you stop readying. I’ve got 16 feats and get spring attack as a bonus feat, so I have plenty.
So? The fighter with Quickdraw needn't have his primary weapon in hand to be readying. His archery attack will do a LOT of damage even if the monk is using shot-on-the-run - certainly more to the monk than the monk will manage to the fighter. The monk has to stay further than sixty feet to be out of reach of a charge, and end further away than sixty feet in order to Spring Attack with no chance of the fighter just racing after him and hitting him, so the fighter can actually move out of range quite easily.
If there is no cover, I still can spring attack 90 feet, which is more than double the fighters movement, so same basic strategy, but invest more in Dex so I can get wind stance (I’ve got 16 feats) and go ethereal if I get in trouble and need to heal. I can take the bonus ki feat a few times to make sure I don’t run out.
It's not going to work. With cover the monk has a fighting chance, because the fighter cannot charge. Without it, the monk has to move 120' per round to stay out of charge range, assuming the fighter doesn't have Fleet, 130' if he does. If the fighter readies actions, the monk can't get him. If he just shoots the monk, he hammers out enough shots that the monk dies anyway in a few rounds. Even with Lightning Stance and Deflect Arrows the monk gets hit around twice a round. With a mighty bow and Deadly Aim, it's going to hurt.
But this is a horrible and pointless scenario.
I agree. You have some good tactics for hit-and-run, but they can be countered and ultimately, any time the fighter hits the monk he has a 30% chance of insta-win, the same as the monk. I don't see how the monk can pull it off reliably.
I'll tell you what will swing this fight decisively in the monk's favor:
Tanglefoot bags and/or the humble net.
First round, monk easily hits the fighter's touch AC, entangling the fighter whilst the fighter is 10'-15' away. Fighter's movement has now been reduced considerably (with a decent chance of them being totally immobilized). Even if/when the fighter cuts his way free, he's going to be stuck at half movement... and the monk can always throw another bag at him if he wants.
This makes things a LOT easier for a spring-attacking monk.
@SashaVikos - I'm not one of the fighter optimizers, but I'd think you could lose weapon spec and Greater spec with the bow (a loss of 4 damage per shot) and pick up a few critical feats. Critical feats + falchion are game-enders, especially if the falchion is the fighter's capstone weapon.
Others might have better ideas, though.