Fighter vs. Rogue or Monk


Advice

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Or how about this for fun........

What if the Monk just uses..............wait for it.............Sunder/Disarm and appropriate feats for Dodge Mobility Spring attack.

Even if the fighter has Adamantite everything the Monk can destroy it all in a few hits. Then the fighter is just as naked as the Monk.


Mogart wrote:
xn0o0cl3 wrote:
ciretose wrote:
Monk has +60 movement. Not 60 total. Base movement is 90.
Right, so the farthest away from the fighter you can possibly at the beginning and end of your move is 45 feet - start your spring attack 45ft away, end it 45ft away. Still within the fighter's charging range. To be outside his charge range, you'll have to end your spring attack at 65ft away or higher, which means you'll have to start your attack from either 25, 20, 15, or 10 feet away from him. Not something you can keep pulling off.
The DM statted the fighter as a Dwarf. Last I checked Dwarves move 20 feet per round.

Actually, no, he didn't. The DM just stated that the dwarf shield and axe fighter sucked at DPR, therefore all fighters obviously suck at DPR. The fighter in the suggested builds above (at least all the ones I have suggested) is human.

Also, as pointed out, disarm doesn't work thanks to the fighter's capstone ability. Sunder could work though.


ashern wrote:


Also, as pointed out, disarm doesn't work thanks to the fighter's capstone ability. Sunder could work though.

Monk CMB is would be like +25,+26.

Fighter CMD agains sunder would be like 41.

the monk will be a hard time.


Fighter takes a Glaive. Step up is not core so he can always five foot step back and full attack if the monk ends a turn next to him. In an exchange of full attacks the Fighter wins. That's why the monk is considering a spring attack strategy in the first place.

If the monk spring attacks the fighter readies a vital strike. If the monk stands at range with shuriken (and has enough strength to get over the dr/-- from armor mastery, which isn't a sure thing without magic items) the fighter closes and makes a vital strike from outside of the monk's reach. The monk can only then close and try to turn the fight into an exchange of full attacks that the fighter will win. If the monk tries to flurry shuriken from 5 range increments away with no charge lane the fighter moves to either cover or a 50' clear area and readies a vital strike. Though I'm not sure that you can carry enough shuriken to make a difference at 5 range increments with no magic against someone with dr/-- 5.

On an infinite difficult battlefield the monk might be able to win with shuriken. Or the fighter could drop the glaive, quickdraw a bow, and unleash


Atarlost wrote:
Step up is not core

You might want to check page 135 of the Core Rulebook.


what is the monk doing on a horse?


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Essentially, the whole fight is a horrible comparison with ridiculous rules.

Core rule book no magic items..........

Well........Pathfinder put out supplements to improve classes that already exist.

This is sort of like saying....If I put Bruce Lee in a fight against a US Marine, and took away the soldier's guns.......and took away the soldier's grenades........and took away the soldier's vehicles........and took away the soldier's weapons making this an unarmed fight...........and put the fighters in a 10x10 foot room.

The soldier would stand no chance for victory against Bruce Lee.

If I took a human, and put her up against an Alien, and took away all of her guns, and gave her a sharpened pencil.......The Alien would totally win.

If I took a baby, and put him in a crib. And then I took the big red button that launches all of the nukes in that crib..... the baby would totally destroy the world within 2 hours.

The DM is constraining the rules to prove his point. In a real game, the DM is simply wrong.


it seems like everybody who thinks the fighter would be more likely to win
is agreeing that the restricted rules are in FAVOR of the fighter winning, not the other way around. i agree the rules are wierd, mostly in the no magic, which is a core assumption... certainly at 20th level (at 1st or 2nd no magic is reasonable and normal obviously). whether or not to use non-core sources isn't wierd, the game was designed to be played with only core, and it works fine that way. may groups who aren't rules reading junkies play exactly like that.

Liberty's Edge

As I said, if the fighter is readying, I'm going to plink him with arrows until he moves hoping for a crit, then spring attack when he moves making sure I end up in a position he can't charge to. I have 90 feet of movement with an extra 20 when I need it if I burn a ki point.

How did the fighter get next to the monk?

The horse line was just an Old Spice Homage since Schrodinger's fighter is now on a horse.

If the monk goes toe to toe with the fighter, most times he loses.

But the monk doesn't need to go toe to toe with the fighter to win the combat.

On a battlefield with cover, it's it all monk. Without cover it gets closer, but odds are still in the monks favor.

With magic items, I think it turns more into rocket tag and the fighter probably wins.

Dark Archive

Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

How do you get to the plinking, exactly?

>Fighter readies action to attack when you're adjacent. End of turn.
>Monk stands his ground, fires arrows. Readied action is never triggered. End of turn.
>Fighter quick draws bow, unleashes considerably more arrows. End of turn.
>Monk rethinks strategy.


ciretose wrote:

As I said, if the fighter is readying, I'm going to plink him with arrows until he moves hoping for a crit, then spring attack when he moves making sure I end up in a position he can't charge to. I have 90 feet of movement with an extra 20 when I need it if I burn a ki point.

How did the fighter get next to the monk?

You can only spring attack once and still saty out of the charge range. monk does not have bow proficiency, so or you use shuriknes o use a feat, even with the fighter automiss a hit every turn i bet he can outdamage the monk in an ranged contest. If the monk uses the bow then no flurry, if flurrying with shurikens DR will eat mos of the monk damage.

Liberty's Edge

xn0o0cl3 wrote:

How do you get to the plinking, exactly?

>Fighter readies action to attack when you're adjacent. End of turn.
>Monk stands his ground, fires arrows. Readied action is never triggered. End of turn.
>Fighter quick draws bow, unleashes considerably more arrows. End of turn.
>Monk rethinks strategy.

As I said earlier, shot on the run (Mobility and Dodge are both monk feats) back behind cover or to activate the 20% concealment in addition to being able to deflect one of the arrows.

Liberty's Edge

Nicos wrote:
ciretose wrote:

As I said, if the fighter is readying, I'm going to plink him with arrows until he moves hoping for a crit, then spring attack when he moves making sure I end up in a position he can't charge to. I have 90 feet of movement with an extra 20 when I need it if I burn a ki point.

How did the fighter get next to the monk?

You can only spring attack once and still saty out of the charge range. monk does not have bow proficiency, so or you use shuriknes o use a feat, even with the fighter automiss a hit every turn i bet he can outdamage the monk in an ranged contest. If the monk uses the bow then no flurry, if flurrying with shurikens DR will eat mos of the monk damage.

The monk has crossbow proficiency, and 16 feats (17 if human).

I'm not getting in a ranged contest, I'm making sure he doesn't ready an action to stop me from spring attacking with either death or paralysis in a given round.


ciretose wrote:

[

As I said earlier, shot on the run (Mobility and Dodge are both monk feats) back behind cover or to activate the 20% concealment in addition to being able to deflect one of the arrows.

1d8 of the bolt against DR 5/-?

Dark Archive

Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

So the net gain here is a miss chance and maybe a couple points of damage? How long does the monk plan to keep that up? Sounds like just another way to get into a Mexican standoff, because the fighter's just going to start readying to fire his bow as soon as the monk leaves his hypothetical cover.


Guys this fight is over. If the monk stands and fights he'll die in one turn. If he spring attacks for quivering palm he'll die in 3 turns unless the fighter rolls really badly. If the monk sits behind cover Fighter readies an action with a ranged weapon. No matter what situation you put it in the fighter will heavily out dpr the monk and going off of saves just means your monk will die in a few turns because the fighter has a significant chance of saving anyways.

Oh and guys
Quivering Palm (Su)

Starting at 15th level, a monk can set up vibrations within the body of another creature that can thereafter be fatal if the monk so desires. He can use this quivering palm attack once per day, and he must announce his intent before making his attack roll. Creatures immune to critical hits cannot be affected. Otherwise, if the monk strikes successfully and the target takes damage from the blow, the quivering palm attack succeeds. Thereafter, the monk can try to slay the victim at any later time, as long as the attempt is made within a number of days equal to his monk level. To make such an attempt, the monk merely wills the target to die (a free action), and unless the target makes a Fortitude saving throw (DC 10 + 1/2 the monk's level + the monk's Wis modifier), it dies. If the saving throw is successful, the target is no longer in danger from that particular quivering palm attack, but it may still be affected by another one at a later time. A monk can have no more than 1 quivering palm in effect at one time. If a monk uses quivering palm while another is still in effect, the previous effect is negated.


Another part of the Quivering Palm rules that's worth noting:

"Otherwise, if the monk strikes successfully and the target takes damage from the blow, the quivering palm attack succeeds."

Dump strength too much to get wisdom high for a better save DC, and the quivering palm might end up missing and going to waste, and there's a small but non-zero chance of it bouncing off the fighter's DR.

Dark Archive

Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

Yup, monk is objectively screwed, probability says so. End of story.


Chengar Qordath wrote:

Another part of the Quivering Palm rules that's worth noting:

"Otherwise, if the monk strikes successfully and the target takes damage from the blow, the quivering palm attack succeeds."

Dump strength too much to get wisdom high for a better save DC, and the quivering palm might end up missing and going to waste, and there's a small but non-zero chance of it bouncing off the fighter's DR.

Which is roughly the same chance that quivering palm has to end the fight in 1 hit.

As far as the crossbow and DR, I think you're missing the point:

Fighter readies an action for when the monk closes
Monk launches a bolt for 1 point of damage
Monk is uninjured and Fighter with no way to heal now has 199 HP (or whatever)

Fighter readies an action waiting for monk to close
Monk launches a bolt for 1 point of damage
Monk is uninjured and Fighter with no way to heal now has 198 HP

The other thing to consider is that if the fighter is specialized in HtH his to hit bonus and damage go way down if not using his "signature weapon" (as seen in the other thread about monk's and fighters). I don't know if it's enough, but you add that and let the monk take advantage of terrain, and it's not such a sure win anymore.


Jodokai wrote:


Which is roughly the same chance that quivering palm has to end the fight in 1 hit.

As far as the crossbow and DR, I think you're missing the point:

Fighter readies an action for when the monk closes
Monk launches a bolt for 1 point of damage
Monk is uninjured and Fighter with no way to heal now has 199 HP (or whatever)

Then the fighter quickdraw a bow full attack and cause more than 1 point of damage.

Now the fighter have not readied an attack, but the monk can not spring attack and stay away from a charge, so if the attack miss or the fighter make the save agains uivering palm/stunning fist the fighter use the carge action.

The only hopes for the monk is that the fighter do not make his save.

Liberty's Edge

xn0o0cl3 wrote:
So the net gain here is a miss chance and maybe a couple points of damage? How long does the monk plan to keep that up? Sounds like just another way to get into a Mexican standoff, because the fighter's just going to start readying to fire his bow as soon as the monk leaves his hypothetical cover.

This is only if the fighter is doing nothing but readying an action. The fighter stands and does nothing, so I plink at him using shot on the run until he does something. It isn't a lot of damage, but it is net advantage to me, so why not. I might get a crit or two and make it worthwhile.

Once he does something, he isn't readying an action, so I can spring attack him without any real consequence.

If there is any object of any size, I can use it to prevent charge attacks and get cover from against ranged attacks. If not, I get a 20% miss chance as long as I keep moving, plus one auto miss.

I only need the quivering palm or stunning fist to work once, and I can try it up to 20 times.

Unarmed strike does 2d10 plus strength, so a 16 overcomes the DR.

Liberty's Edge

Quivering palm is once a day (the first thing to try)

Paralysis for 1d6+1 rounds is one of the effect you can choose for stunning fist at 20th level.


ciretose wrote:
xn0o0cl3 wrote:
So the net gain here is a miss chance and maybe a couple points of damage? How long does the monk plan to keep that up? Sounds like just another way to get into a Mexican standoff, because the fighter's just going to start readying to fire his bow as soon as the monk leaves his hypothetical cover.

This is only if the fighter is doing nothing but readying an action. The fighter stands and does nothing, so I plink at him using shot on the run until he does something. It isn't a lot of damage, but it is net advantage to me, so why not. I might get a crit or two and make it worthwhile.

Once he does something, he isn't readying an action, so I can spring attack him without any real consequence.

If there is any object of any size, I can use it to prevent charge attacks and get cover from against ranged attacks. If not, I get a 20% miss chance as long as I keep moving, plus one auto miss.

I only need the quivering palm or stunning fist to work once, and I can try it up to 20 times.

Unarmed strike does 2d10 plus strength, so a 16 overcomes the DR.

Your tactics make total sense, and with those modifiers it sounds like your survivability is pretty good. So stat something out and comparing it to the fighter that was posted earlier, to we can see how the numbers crunch.

Liberty's Edge

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Guys. Guys.

What if...

The monk took leadership and gained a fighter cohort?

BAM. Monk wins.


ciretose wrote:
Unarmed strike does 2d10 plus strength, so a 16 overcomes the DR.

Sure, but on 20 point buy a 16 in strength eats up half your points. Combine that with the high wisdom you advocated earlier, and your monk is looking at tens in Dex and Con.

MAD hurts a lot when you can't get any stat-boosts.


xn0o0cl3 wrote:
Yup, monk is objectively screwed, probability says so. End of story.

On the other hand, what if the fighter rolls really badly? Not being funny here, but I play this game with dice - I don't compare tables to see who loses. Have I been doing it wrong?


Wrexham3 wrote:
xn0o0cl3 wrote:
Yup, monk is objectively screwed, probability says so. End of story.
On the other hand, What if the fighter rolls really badly? Not being funny here, but I play this game with dice - I don't compare tables to see who loses. Have I been doing it wrong?

Of course if the fighter keep rolling badly and the monk keep rolling good the monk will win. So, the monk attack with quivering palm and hit because he rolls high. The fighter rolls extremely low on his save: tries again and rolls really low again. The fighter dies. The odds of that happening have been calculated, it's not impossible but it's extremely unlikely.


Crysknife wrote:
Wrexham3 wrote:
xn0o0cl3 wrote:
Yup, monk is objectively screwed, probability says so. End of story.
On the other hand, What if the fighter rolls really badly? Not being funny here, but I play this game with dice - I don't compare tables to see who loses. Have I been doing it wrong?
Of course if the fighter keep rolling badly and the monk keep rolling good the monk will win. So, the monk attack with quivering palm and hit because he rolls high. The fighter rolls extremely low on his save: tries again and rolls really low again. The fighter dies. The odds of that happening have been calculated, it's not impossible but it's extremely unlikely.

Thanks, Crysknife. I was just worried about Probability making all these definitive statements before Outcome said anything. Carry on.


Out of curiosity why does the fighter have to ready a melee attack?

"I ready a shot as soon as he leaves cover"

bam 1d10 with a moderate at best to hit versus taking bow as a 2nd weapon

1d10+3(Weap Train)+4(Great Weap Spec)+5(Strength: Composite)+12(Deadly Aim)

or 1d10 + 24


Bows are 1d8.
The readied melee attack assumes the monk does not start with cover and will enter into melee with spring attack.

Silver Crusade

Axebeard wrote:

Guys. Guys.

What if...

The monk took leadership and gained a fighter cohort?

BAM. Monk wins.

Fighter gets Leadership earlier and can more easily afford to pump CHA to optimize it.

:(


Pointlessness overkill. Math kills the monk.


I just realized. The monk can't use deflect arrows on anything even moderately large. it says right in the description that he can't deflect a ballista bolt which is 10 lbs. take the throw anything feat, carry a few of them. Take normal Stuff for it, then throw anything and two handed thrower.

Human Fighter

Str 18
Dex 14
Con 14

Favored Class Bonus +20 Grapple, Sunder

Feats
1. Weap Foc (Greataxe)
1. Great Fort
1. Improved Great Fort
2. Throw Anything
3. Quick Draw
4. Two Handed Thrower
5. Weapon Special (Greataxe)
6. Vital Strike
7. Improved Unarmed Strike
8. Great Weap Foc (Greataxe)
9. Dodge
10. Blind Fight
11. Crane Style
12. Great Weap Special (Greataxe)
13. Crane Wing
14. Blind Fight Improved
15. Crane Riposte
16. Blind Fight Greater
17. Penetrating Strike
18. Improved Penetrating Strike
19. Improved Crit (Greataxe)
20. Power Attack

+5 Increase to strength through levels

Equipment
Adamantine Platemail
(30) (Masterwork) Adamantine Greataxes

Thrown
+29 (20 BAB + 2 DEX + 1 Masterwork + 2 Weap Foc + 4 Weapon Training) 1d12+17 (9 Strength + 4 Great Weap Special + 4 Weap Training)

Melee
+27 (20 BAB + 6 STR + 4 Weapon Training + 2 Weap Foc + 1 Masterwork-6 Power Attack)
1d12 + 35 (9 STr + 4 Great Weap Special + 4 weap Train + 18 Power Attack)

Ready an action to throw it as soon as he leaves his cover. Its too large for him to deflect, its bigger than a ballista bolt which deflect arrows specifically says he cannot. If he tries to stun you he can only try 1 time per round and he has to declare it. Crane wing auto negates, you get an AOO. No matter what he'll never get stunning fist or quivering palm off because he has to declare them and you can just deflect it.


It's core only, so Crane Style is out.

Liberty's Edge

So you hit the monk with one ranged attack that won't kill the monk, and the monk hits you with an attack that could kill you.

And if the monk gets hurt, the monk spends a ki point to get 20 hit points back.

And as has been pointed out to me on other issues, crane wing isn't core, and even if it was you can't do it and ready an action.

So to half-ass stat out a monk.

Human
Str 16 (10)
Dex 15 (7)
Con 12 (2)
Int 8 (-2)
Wisdom 15 (7) +2 Human, + 5 Bonuses = 22
Charisma 7 (-4)

Stunning save DC = 26
AC = 24 (10 + 5 Monk + 6 wis +2 Dex +1 dodge)

Feats

Monk Bonus Feats
1. Deflect Arrows.
2. Dodge
6. Mobility
10. Spring Attack
14. Medusa's wrath
18. Improved Critical (unarmed)

Other feats
1. Point blank shot
3. Toughness
5. Power attack
7. Shot on the run
9. Deadly Aim
11.Wind Stance
13.Endurance
15.Die Hard
17.Weapon Focus (unarmed)
19.Rapid reload


Cool! Here's a rough fighter build put together

Strength 16(10) +2 from human (+2 lvl 4,8)
Dex 17( 13) ( +3 lvl 12,16,20)
Con 14( 5)
Int 7(-4)
Wis 10
Cha 7 (-4)

Ends with 20,20,14,7,10,7

HP: 10 (first level) + 19x6 (all other levels) +40 (con) + 20 (favored class) = 184 HP
AC: 10: 9(full plate) +5 (Dex) +1 (dodge) = 25 also DR 5/- since he's wearing armor

Saves
Fort: +12 +2 (con) + 2(Great Fortitude) = +16, roll twice once per day
Ref: +6 +5 (dex) = +11
Will: +6

Feats:
1 Point Blank Shot
H Rapid Shot
3 Deadly Aim
5 Power Attack
7 Dodge
9 Precise Shot
11 Improved Init
13 Penetrating Strike
15Great Fort
17 Imp Great Fort
19 Imp Penetrating Strike

Fighter Feats
1 Weapon focus (falchion)
2 Weapon focus (longbow)
4 Weap Spec(falchion)
6 Weap Spec(longbow)
8 Greater WF (falchion)
10 Greater WF (longbow)
12 Improved Crit (Falchion)
14 Quick Draw
16 Critical Focus
18 Staggering Critical
20 Stunning Critical

Weapon Training/Master- +4/+4 falchion (auto confirm at +1 crit modifier), +3 longbow.
Armor Training: (+4 max dex bonus, -4 armor check penalty, DR 5/- while in armor, move full speed in heavy armor)

Falchion Attack Routine:
Attack: +20 (bab) +5 (str) + 4(training) +2(weap focus+ greater) +1 (masterwork)-6 PA = +26/+21/+16/+11
Damage: 2d4 + 4(training) + 7 (strength) + 2(spec) + 18 (PA) = 2d4 +31, crit range 15-20x3, auto confirm.

Longbow Attack Routine:
Attack: +20 (bab) +5 (dex) + 3(training) +2(weap focus+ greater) +1 (masterwork)-6 DA-2 RS = +23/23/18/13/8
Damage: 1d8 + 3(training) + 5 (strength) + 2(spec) + 12 (PA) = 1d8 +22

Alright, all of that being said. By your own calculations your monk has an AC of 24. You can grab the first arrow every round. That's pretty good. You also have identical HP to my character by my calculations (difference being you have toughness and I have 14 con), so 184 HP. You attack string is +18/18/13/13/8/8/3 for 2d10+11 (when power attacking, which I'm assuming you are). That would do 60.5 DPR against me with a full attack, or 15.4 with a single attack.

Now, honestly thing seems to kind of turn into rocket launcher tag. I have improved precise shot, which negates the miss chance from anything less than full cover, which negates wind stance. This means that unless you can hide behind full cover I can blast you for 61 DPR, including your snatched arrow. That's not amazing, I'll grant, and if you spend KI to boost AC it goes down, and realistically that gives you 3-5 chances to hit me with a stunning fist/quivering palm, either of which would be game over with a failed save.

Now if we turn this into a melee response to your spring attacking, which is more difficult, I'm averaging 55.8 DPR on my falchion response attack. Also, each time that connects it has a 30% chance to hit you with stunning critical, which even if you save leaves you staggered for 1d4 rounds, which would realistically end the fight in my favor.

So really, I agree that the monk stands a chance. It comes down to if the fighter fails a save before criticaling on the monk.

If somebody else feels like putting together the reach/trip fighter build that would be great. I already crunched a lot of numbers.


I do not understand the idea of ciretose, the only chance i see for the monk to win is the fighter not making a saving trow.

In a ranged contest the fighter will easely win.


IF I understand what has been posted, Ciretose is suggesting the monk only use ranged attacks to draw the fighter out of his readied melee attack strategy. It's a griefing tactic that can deal roughly 7 damage per round assuming a hit -- which he seems only capable of doing at about a 50% rate. Given that, it'd take somewhere over 30 rounds to take down the fighter with this tactic (again, assuming a 50% hit-rate).

So the fighter's response (by the above poster's suggestions) is to draw bow and unleash hell... which does quite a bit more damage, but not enough to drop the monk in one go. Ciretose's monk then takes that opportunity to rush in for a Quivering Palm attack. High chance of landing the blow, but the fighter has a high chance of saving out of it, at which point the fighter either switches back to readying actions or continues to pound on the monk with his bow (mostly depending on whether or not the monk retreats back again -- and he pretty much has to because giving the fighter a full-attack in melee is suicide).

At this point, the monk has to choose, does he keep trying for spring attack stuns -- attempting to fish out the fighter's bad fort save rolls -- or stop to use his standard action to heal himself?

Healing himself pretty much only gives the fighter another full-attack of pincushioning him with arrows, so it's kind of a losing strategy (in my mind, anyway).

I might have missed something, though.


Sounds right to me unless Ciretose has another strategy. Nice concise summation!


Nicos wrote:

Then the fighter quickdraw a bow full attack and cause more than 1 point of damage.

Now the fighter have not readied an attack, but the monk can not spring attack and stay away from a charge, so if the attack miss or the fighter make the save agains uivering palm/stunning fist the fighter use the carge action.

The only hopes for the monk is that the fighter do not make his save.

Except the Monk now has DR 10 against the fighter who is no longer using their specialized weapon, the monk also has defelct arrows and, if you read my post, cover. Top that off with the Fighters to hit bonus and damage goes way down when not using his signature weapon, and it's back to being a fight.

You've also missed that if a fighter doesn't hold action, the monk is free to close and stunning fist.

Again, I'm not saying the monk will win, but it will be a fight that comes down to die rolls and not just the fighter walking all over him.


Jodokai wrote:


Except the Monk now has DR 10 against the fighter who is no longer using their specialized weapon, the monk also has defelct arrows and, if you read my post, cover. Top that off with the Fighters to hit bonus and damage goes way down when not using his signature weapon, and it's back to being a fight.

You've also missed that if a fighter doesn't hold action, the monk is free to close and stunning fist.

Again, I'm not saying the monk will win, but it will be a fight that comes down to die rolls and not just the fighter walking all over him.

Just want to point out:

Greater Penetrating Strike (Combat)
Your attacks penetrate the defenses of most foes.
Prerequisites: Penetrating Strike, Weapon Focus, 16th-level fighter.
Benefit: Your attacks with weapons selected with Weapon Focus ignore up to 10 points of damage reduction. This amount is reduced to 5 points for damage reduction without a type (such as DR 10/—).

Switch hitter fighter has weapon focus with both weapons. Monk DR is inapplicable. Also, improved precise shot elimates all cover and concealment bonuses, short of full cover/concealment. Weapon training 3 is applied to the bow so it is actually only 1 lower. I already calculated DPR considering all of this above.

I agree that it will come down to die rolls though.

Edit: can't spell


Jodokai wrote:
Nicos wrote:

Then the fighter quickdraw a bow full attack and cause more than 1 point of damage.

Now the fighter have not readied an attack, but the monk can not spring attack and stay away from a charge, so if the attack miss or the fighter make the save agains uivering palm/stunning fist the fighter use the carge action.

The only hopes for the monk is that the fighter do not make his save.

Except the Monk now has DR 10 against the fighter who is no longer using their specialized weapon, the monk also has defelct arrows and, if you read my post, cover. Top that off with the Fighters to hit bonus and damage goes way down when not using his signature weapon, and it's back to being a fight.

You've also missed that if a fighter doesn't hold action, the monk is free to close and stunning fist.

Again, I'm not saying the monk will win, but it will be a fight that comes down to die rolls and not just the fighter walking all over him.

The above fighter has Weapon Focus and Greater Weapon focus in both Falchion and Longbow, so his Penetrating Strikes work for both -- bypassing the DR of the monk.

Yes, if the fighter doesn't ready a melee attack, the monk is free to spring attack + quivering palm/stunning fist. The point being that he has only a slightly better chance of landing the unarmed attack than the fighter is to save out of the effect.

I love monks, but the odds seem to be stacked against him unless there's something I"m missing.


Sample crit-fishing fighter build

Half-Elf Fighter 20

Starting: Str 19, Dex 16, Con 14, Int 7, Wis 10, Cha 7
Final: Str 22, Dex 18, Con 14, Int 7, Wis 10, Cha 7

HP: ~194 (20d10 +40 +20 toughness +20 favored class)
AC: 24 (10 +9 armor +4 dex +1 dodge)
Touch: 15; FF: 19
Saves: Fortitude +16, Reflex +10, Will +6
BAB +20; CMB +26; CMD 41
Initiative +8
Speed: 30 ft

Full Attack:
Falchion +33/+28/+23/+18 (2d4+17, S, 15-20/x3)
w/ Power Attack: +27/+22/+17/+12 (2d4+35, S, 15-20/x3)

Armor Spikes +29/+24/+19/+14 (1d6+8, P, 20/x2)
w/ Power Attack: +23/+18/+13/+8 (1d6+24, P, 20/x2)

Longbow +28/+23/+18/+13 (1d8+9, P, 20/x3, 110 ft)

Feats:
1 Skill Focus (Perception) [Half-Elf]
1 Power Attack
1F Weapon Focus (Falchion)
2F Dodge
3 Great Fortitude
4F Weapon Specialization (Falchion)
5 Improved Initiative
6F Lunge
7 Imp. Greater Fortitude
8F Improved Critical (Falchion)
9 Toughness
10F Greater Weapon Focus (Falchion)
11 Critical Focus
12F Penetrating Strike
13 Staggering Critical (Fort DC 30 partial)
14F Greater Weapon Specialization (Falchion)
15 Blinding Critical (Fort DC 30 partial)
16F Greater Penetrating Strike
17 Stunning Critical (Fort DC 30 partial)
18F Critical Mastery
19 Step Up
20F Quickdraw

Skills: Perception +28 (20 ranks +2 racial +6 focus)

Weapon Training: Heavy Blades +4, Bows +3, Close +2 and +1 something else

Equipment: Masterwork everything, basically. Bow has +6 str rating. Backup copies of weapons, plus armor spikes, daggers, and clubs and whatnot. Wears mstwk. mithral or adamantine (doesn't really matter) full plate.

Tactics: Has bow drawn, falchion(s) sheathed. Softens up target with arrows until within or close to melee range. Drops bow and quickdraws sword at that point. Threatens with armor spikes while bow is in use.

Dark Archive

All bows and crossbows are 2H weapons except for the hand crossbow. If the monk is using bows, he can't Defect Arrows/Snatch Arrows.

Not sure if anybody mentioned that, since I haven't been on this thread for a day.


You're only using 2 hands when shooting the projectile weapon, otherwise reloading it would be impossible. Out of turn, that bow/xbow is in one hand and the other is free to deflect arrows.

Dark Archive

Although that's logical, I remember Paizo saying a wizard with a quarter staff arcane bond would need to do a concentration check due to not "wielding" it properly. Did they ever turn that?

If this is the case, if a monk is using another 2H weapons with reach during another character's turn frees up a hand to Deflect Arrows, does he provoke with his weapon?


ciretose wrote:
TriOmegaZero wrote:
Provided the monk can get off 20 attacks, which isn't a certainty.

Let’s look at how I see it playing out and you tell me where I am wrong.

If the monk wins initiative,

As the Spartans said to Alexander: "If."

ciretose wrote:
the monk spring attacks a quivering palm and gets behind cover.

Is there cover?

ciretose wrote:
The monk can move at least 90 feet, and if he can get behind cover he is safe from range and charge attacks.

Why would the fighter bother? He can just wait for the monk to come to him with a readied action.

ciretose wrote:
Rinse, repeat with paralyzing attacks if quivering palm fails, doing 2d10 + str damage each attack with functionally adamantine weapons.

Which don't get past the fighter's DR5/-, while the fighter has a falchion and a readied action. Each time he hits the monk (and at his attack bonus he misses on a '1') he has a 30% chance of a critical hit, no confirmation roll required. From the figures I crunched, one critical hit kills the monk dead. The monk could have a 30% chance of succeeding with his quivering palm/stunning fist attack, but the fighter with Imp. Great Fortitude gets a re-roll. The monk gets not re-roll from being cut in half.

ciretose wrote:
If the fighter wins initiative, they need to drop the monk in one round, presumably from range, with at least one attack auto missing, or I do the above. If he tries to ready an action to hit me when I spring, I wait him out.

He can wait as long as you can - longer, he has better Con.

ciretose wrote:
If I need to heal, I go ethereal, heal, then come back. I could also get shot on the run (Mobility is a monk feat) and plink away while hoping for crits until you stop readying. I’ve got 16 feats and get spring attack as a bonus feat, so I have plenty.

So? The fighter with Quickdraw needn't have his primary weapon in hand to be readying. His archery attack will do a LOT of damage even if the monk is using shot-on-the-run - certainly more to the monk than the monk will manage to the fighter. The monk has to stay further than sixty feet to be out of reach of a charge, and end further away than sixty feet in order to Spring Attack with no chance of the fighter just racing after him and hitting him, so the fighter can actually move out of range quite easily.

ciretose wrote:
If there is no cover, I still can spring attack 90 feet, which is more than double the fighters movement, so same basic strategy, but invest more in Dex so I can get wind stance (I’ve got 16 feats) and go ethereal if I get in trouble and need to heal. I can take the bonus ki feat a few times to make sure I don’t run out.

It's not going to work. With cover the monk has a fighting chance, because the fighter cannot charge. Without it, the monk has to move 120' per round to stay out of charge range, assuming the fighter doesn't have Fleet, 130' if he does. If the fighter readies actions, the monk can't get him. If he just shoots the monk, he hammers out enough shots that the monk dies anyway in a few rounds. Even with Lightning Stance and Deflect Arrows the monk gets hit around twice a round. With a mighty bow and Deadly Aim, it's going to hurt.

ciretose wrote:
But this is a horrible and pointless scenario.

I agree. You have some good tactics for hit-and-run, but they can be countered and ultimately, any time the fighter hits the monk he has a 30% chance of insta-win, the same as the monk. I don't see how the monk can pull it off reliably.


Hey guys. So in the OP's scenario, I am the guy who is supposed to bring said fighter to game with me this Sunday.

How this came up: We have in our group of lvl 11's a semi-min/maxy paladin and a guy who is playing a fighter. In my first session with them I find out a few things.
1. the paladin does way more damage than the fighter
2. as ashern said, the fighter is a 1h axe/shield dwarf fighter who has traditionally "sacrificed damage for feats that give good map mobility." I haven't looked at the guy's sheet, but during game, he didn't really do much moving.

Anyway, the fighter started complaining mid game that vital strike was worthless unless you could use it in your full round attack on your first hit. I said that would be super broken. After game, the DM basically asked me and another guy why it would be a bad idea to let him vital strike on his first hit then take the rest of his attacks. Arguments ensued. I broke out the iphone to read him DPR Olympics of fighter damage, but said DM "doesn't trust some internet hack's numbers." /facepalm

Anywho...

Let me show you what I've got so far and re-post the rules as the DM has set them out.

1. Bring a fighter/monk/rogue who is optimized for damage output
2. Core only
3. No magic items (master work and strength bows ok)
4. for stats we have to use the 20-point point buy
5. 20th lvl
6. we start 30 feet apart and the rogue has some things to hide behind for stealth/cover/concealment purposes (hence imp precise shot)
7. Winner gets $20

We are doing two scenarios:

1. 1v1 combats between fighter, rogue, and monk (though I will suggest making it a 2 on 1. The other guy and DM aren't necessarily great optimizers obviously).

2. group of 3 vs a single monster with ridiculous HP. (This is a damage vs. survivability test the DM came up with after I started bragging he was going to get steamrolled).

My plan was to make a high damage switch hitter that could take full round attack every round. I assume I'll be able to ace the rogue 2nd or 3rd round if I get my hits off.

The Green Arrow, Human Fighter 20.

Attributes (20-point buy)
Str: 20 (base 16, +2 stat points, +2 Racial Mod)
Dex: 20 (base 17 + 3 stat points)
Con: 14
Int: 7
Wis: 10
Cha: 7

Saves
Fortitude: 14
Reflex: 11
Willpower: 6

HP 185
1d10 + 20 (Favored class)+ 40 (Con) + 20 (Toughness)

AC 25
10 + 9 (Fullplate armor bonus) + 5 (Dex bonus) + 1 (Dodge)
DR: 5/--

Skills
Minimum 1 per level + 1 per level (for human)
Perception +20 (for rogue spotting)
Heal +13 (for bleeding)
Climb +18

BOWS
Weapon to hit:
25*/25/20/15/10
plus many shot

Weapon Damage:
Mighty Composite Longbow (+5 Str Adjustment)
1d8 + 26
5 (stat) + 4 (weapon training) + 4 (weapon specialization) + 12 (Deadly Aim) + 1(PBS)

Weapon Critical: 20x3

FALCHION
Weapon to hit:
25/20/15/10

Weapon Damage:
Falchion
2d4 + 32
7 (stat and a half) + 3 (weapon training) + 4 (weapon specialization) + 18 (Power Attack)
Weapon Critical: 15-20x3 (auto confirm criticals)

Feats
1. Weapon Focus (Bows)
2. Point Blank Shot
3. Precise Shot
4. Quick Draw
5. Rapid Shot
6. Deadly Aim
7. Weapon Specialization (Bow)
8. Many Shot
9. Improved Precise Shot
10. Power Attack
11. Combat Reflexes
12. Improved Initiative
13. GWF (bows)
14. GWS (bows)
15. Dodge
16. Toughness
17. WF (2h)
18. WS (2h)
19. GWF (2h)
20. GWS (2h)
21. Improved critical (Falchion)
22. Lunge

Gear:
Masterwork Full Plate
Masterwork Falchion
Masterwork Composite Longbow (+5 Strength)
Explorer’s Outfit
Quivers (5)
Arrows (100)
Backpack

**I'll edit this as i tweak it


I'll tell you what will swing this fight decisively in the monk's favor:

Tanglefoot bags and/or the humble net.

First round, monk easily hits the fighter's touch AC, entangling the fighter whilst the fighter is 10'-15' away. Fighter's movement has now been reduced considerably (with a decent chance of them being totally immobilized). Even if/when the fighter cuts his way free, he's going to be stuck at half movement... and the monk can always throw another bag at him if he wants.

This makes things a LOT easier for a spring-attacking monk.


@SashaVikos - I'm not one of the fighter optimizers, but I'd think you could lose weapon spec and Greater spec with the bow (a loss of 4 damage per shot) and pick up a few critical feats. Critical feats + falchion are game-enders, especially if the falchion is the fighter's capstone weapon.

Others might have better ideas, though.

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