Fighter vs. Rogue or Monk


Advice

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Sczarni

Nicos wrote:
maouse wrote:
Nicos wrote:
maouse wrote:


OR be invisible. My build beats yours because your fighter can't see...
Oh common, with magic avaliable there is a lot of scrodinger-like ways to deny that tactics.
i didn't say he was invisible because of magic... bluff + stealth works fine too. or as i stated, one core level of shadowdancer allows them to stand in the fighter's shadow and be hidden (but not thier own).
Oh well, then Smokebomb, if the rogue can not see he can not use his sneak attack.

which goes back to five posts ago... I post a build that can beat yours and you counter with something... blah blah blah, this entire convo is kinda dumb. Any of the three can beat the other if properly played.


maouse wrote:
Talonhawke wrote:

Still need cover to stay hidden still break stealth on the first attack.

So Nope one sneak attack assuming you can hit the AC.

Snipe, as an option means you are going to be rolling 3+stat versus their perception+stat. So in theory, that can work fine if they have a low perception. 9 turns (or less) and he is on the floor with 0 strength.

I am missing the part where you can't attack from stealth as a full attack action if you beat their initiative and they are still flat footed... (ie. you beat their initiative on the suprise round, waited, then did a full attack as they are flat footed still waiting to act). Nobody says you HAVE to attack during a suprise round and take away their flatfootedness with a lone attack.

One if they are flatfooted you dont even need stealth.

Two if you snipe its one shot then your hiding at a -20 to keep me from seeing you so if you both have max ranks you have (stat -17) I have at worst (stat)


maouse wrote:

which goes back to five posts ago... I post a build that can beat yours and you counter with something... blah blah blah, this entire convo is kinda dumb. Any of the three can beat the other if properly played.

Of course, and the dice will matters too. I still believe the fighter have advantage in most of the cases.

Sczarni

Talonhawke wrote:
maouse wrote:
Talonhawke wrote:

Still need cover to stay hidden still break stealth on the first attack.

So Nope one sneak attack assuming you can hit the AC.

Snipe, as an option means you are going to be rolling 3+stat versus their perception+stat. So in theory, that can work fine if they have a low perception. 9 turns (or less) and he is on the floor with 0 strength.

I am missing the part where you can't attack from stealth as a full attack action if you beat their initiative and they are still flat footed... (ie. you beat their initiative on the suprise round, waited, then did a full attack as they are flat footed still waiting to act). Nobody says you HAVE to attack during a suprise round and take away their flatfootedness with a lone attack.

One if they are flatfooted you dont even need stealth.

Two if you snipe its one shot then your hiding at a -20 to keep me from seeing you so if you both have max ranks you have (stat -17) I have at worst (stat)

That's the point... your build intentionally studied something other than perception... ergo my build wins. Or are you just presuming that anything I can do you are going to take 20 ranks (of a fighter's whapping 40 point pool for skills, which, guess what = would take every RANK he had since its not a class skill) in to counter and thus end the conversation? And then I can take whatever non-magical means I can to counter that counter... and so on... ad nauseum... oh wait. here we are 11+ pages later.

Heck, my rogue threatens and bluffs your fighter into beating himself up. Case closed. Bluff:"The only way for you to beat me is to kill yourself (-20 impossible bluff)." So now we are rolling dice, your Wis bonus versus 3 points of class skill and my charisma... gives me a 15% or better advantage as the rogue.


.... One I havent posted a build so what build are you talking about?

2. I can have more than one skill heck as a human with even a 12 INT I can haz 4 maxed out.

3. Both your hide in my shadow and your sniping plan still only need one skill perception.

4. I'm pointing to the flaws in your examples showing you where the rules don't support the claims your making. For instance you brought up making a full attack from stealth, which you can't do and I pointed this out. Then suddenly your talking about doing it after a surprise round while I'm still flat-footed yes you can now full attack but not becuase of stealth.

Sczarni

Talonhawke wrote:

.... One I havent posted a build so what build are you talking about?

2. I can have more than one skill heck as a human with even a 12 INT I can haz 4 maxed out.

3. Both your hide in my shadow and your sniping plan still only need one skill perception.

4. I'm pointing to the flaws in your examples showing you where the rules don't support the claims your making. For instance you brought up making a full attack from stealth, which you can't do and I pointed this out. Then suddenly your talking about doing it after a surprise round while I'm still flat-footed yes you can now full attack but not becuase of stealth.

Well, as I stated a while back.. I am just back to the 3.x PF rule set.

1. "Your build" refers to any generic fighter build. not you personally. I meant it as an argumentative point that if you presented one, then obviously someone could counter it.
2. You can get 20 points in perception, but its not a class skill so it costs you 40 ranks (your entire base pool for a lvl 20 fighter). If we go by a "core" rules fighter, they wouldn't have any ranks in it as its not a class skill. Thus stealth of a rogue trumps their "eyesight". Generically speaking.
3. as stated in 2.
4. ty for pointing that out. obviously I needed some help finding the "ideal situation"in which the rules benefitted my rogue delivering 44d6 and 8 strength damage to your fighter... again, just back to these rules.


1. Got ya

2. PF is 1 for 1 on skills and i can easily manage 20 of my 80-100(depends on favored class bonus allocation).

3. As stated in 2

4. NP

To expand on 2 skills work way different in PF when it comes to class and cross class. Its only 1 point to raise it ever if you have it as a class skill you get a free +3 instead of max ranks being lvl +3. with the cost of 1 of my 21 feats I can grab skill focus for another +6 meaning even with a 0 wisdom (something that wouldn't happen with me) I would still have a 26 before rolling.


maouse wrote:
Talonhawke wrote:

.... One I havent posted a build so what build are you talking about?

2. I can have more than one skill heck as a human with even a 12 INT I can haz 4 maxed out.

3. Both your hide in my shadow and your sniping plan still only need one skill perception.

4. I'm pointing to the flaws in your examples showing you where the rules don't support the claims your making. For instance you brought up making a full attack from stealth, which you can't do and I pointed this out. Then suddenly your talking about doing it after a surprise round while I'm still flat-footed yes you can now full attack but not becuase of stealth.

Well, as I stated a while back.. I am just back to the 3.x PF rule set.

1. "Your build" refers to any generic fighter build. not you personally. I meant it as an argumentative point that if you presented one, then obviously someone could counter it.
2. You can get 20 points in perception, but its not a class skill so it costs you 40 ranks (your entire base pool for a lvl 20 fighter). If we go by a "core" rules fighter, they wouldn't have any ranks in it as its not a class skill. Thus stealth of a rogue trumps their "eyesight". Generically speaking.
3. as stated in 2.
4. ty for pointing that out. obviously I needed some help finding the "ideal situation"in which the rules benefitted my rogue delivering 44d6 and 8 strength damage to your fighter... again, just back to these rules.

Please at least read the PF rules before you make arguments. All skills you buy up 1 to 1 in PF, whether class skills or not. Also no cover = no stealth, unless you have hide in plain sight.


Rogue has an Advanced Talent that gives him auto SA on all attacks for one round, but only once per day.


ImperatorK wrote:
Rogue has an Advanced Talent that gives him auto SA on all attacks for one round, but only once per day.

not core...


I'm currently trying to find out if the fight went down this weekend. More information hopefully incoming soon.

Sczarni

Gignere wrote:
maouse wrote:
Talonhawke wrote:

.... One I havent posted a build so what build are you talking about?

2. I can have more than one skill heck as a human with even a 12 INT I can haz 4 maxed out.

3. Both your hide in my shadow and your sniping plan still only need one skill perception.

4. I'm pointing to the flaws in your examples showing you where the rules don't support the claims your making. For instance you brought up making a full attack from stealth, which you can't do and I pointed this out. Then suddenly your talking about doing it after a surprise round while I'm still flat-footed yes you can now full attack but not becuase of stealth.

Well, as I stated a while back.. I am just back to the 3.x PF rule set.

1. "Your build" refers to any generic fighter build. not you personally. I meant it as an argumentative point that if you presented one, then obviously someone could counter it.
2. You can get 20 points in perception, but its not a class skill so it costs you 40 ranks (your entire base pool for a lvl 20 fighter). If we go by a "core" rules fighter, they wouldn't have any ranks in it as its not a class skill. Thus stealth of a rogue trumps their "eyesight". Generically speaking.
3. as stated in 2.
4. ty for pointing that out. obviously I needed some help finding the "ideal situation"in which the rules benefitted my rogue delivering 44d6 and 8 strength damage to your fighter... again, just back to these rules.

Please at least read the PF rules before you make arguments. All skills you buy up 1 to 1 in PF, whether class skills or not. Also no cover = no stealth, unless you have hide in plain sight.

Well, in any event, if fighter is in full plate (presumably), a rogue need only get them to 5 strength before they lose their dex bonus from staggering around under a too heavy load. After the first -8 they will be at 12 max and already under a medium load no matter what... so the rogue can easily outdistance them, hide again and wait/snipe a few more times and its game over.

ps. ty for the heads up on the skill cost change... I don't know if it was just an old habit or if I thought I read it somewhere. Will make a lot of difference to my intelligence rogue...


maouse wrote:
Well, in any event, if fighter is in full plate (presumably), a rogue need only get them to 5 strength before they lose their dex bonus from staggering around under a too heavy load. After the first -8 they will be at 12 max and already under a medium load no matter what... so the rogue can easily outdistance them, hide again and wait/snipe a few more times and its game over.

I'd strongly recommend getting more experience with the Pathfinder ruleset before trying to make these arguments. It seems like you are coming from a 3.5 background, and a lot has changed since then. In this case, ability damage does not reduce carrying capacity. You can see the specifics what ability damage does here.

Your Bluff idea is likely not going to work either, as the skill description says, "Note that some lies are so improbable that it is impossible to convince anyone that they are true (subject to GM discretion)." Also, it takes a round of more to even make the attempt, meaning you are likely going to eat a full attack for even trying.

Honestly, all your tactics so far seem to be based on rules misinterpretations or the Fighter being purposefully built with a specific, massive flaw for you to exploit. While the Monk people made their case with specific rule knowledge, argument, and even builds, you haven't really presented any evidence that makes me think a Rogue would stand much of any chance in this contest.


maouse wrote:
which goes back to five posts ago... I post a build that can beat yours and you counter with something... blah blah blah, this entire convo is kinda dumb. Any of the three can beat the other if properly played.

Not true. You're only looking at one side of the argument. Most of the monk builds haven't changed at all. They haven't even really changed their tactics. It only takes a few feats (6 I think?) and the monk's mobility and stunning fist to beat most fighter builds.


Mort the Cleverly Named wrote:
Honestly, all your tactics so far seem to be based on rules misinterpretations or the Fighter being purposefully built with a specific, massive flaw for you to exploit. While the Monk people made their case with specific rule knowledge, argument, and even builds, you haven't really presented any evidence that makes me think a Rogue would stand much of any chance in this contest.

Yeah I've been trying to come up with a way for the rogue to win this fight, and I can't even make it close. Without the APG, the rogue just doesn't have the options. The major flaw comes from having to be within charging range to use sneak attack. Admittedly I haven't gone through all the options available for Major Magic, and there may be some fun to be had with getting a Familiar, but I don't see how a rogue can even make this close.


Yah, i was pretty convinced tat the fighter would generally win until a couple of builds came along that maxed out the monk's Stunning Fist/Quivering Palm ability. At that point, the monk can basically grief the fighter (using mobility + cover + weak-but-semi-dependable-ranged-attacks) into dropping his readied action... at which point he delivers his Stunnig Fist/Quivering Palm.

It's not a guaranteed strategy by any means, but it seems to tip the scales.

The only fighter build I've seen posted that counters this is the two-kukri, AC-stacking build that basically makes the above monk's ability to actually land the Stunning Fist/Quivering Palm far less likely. Does the venerably-aged, quivering-palm-of-terror monk build have an answer to this?

So what we have (as has been mentioned before) is a series of "one-upping", and it seems to be the monk's turn to do so. So far, only the rogue has failed to post a winning build (from what i can tell).

Yep... apparently it's my job to give periodic, concise updates hoping to move the conversation along constructively... i can be okay with that. :)


Jodokai wrote:
Admittedly I haven't gone through all the options available for Major Magic, and there may be some fun to be had with getting a Familiar, but I don't see how a rogue can even make this close.

Major Magic seemed to hold a bit of promise, especially because pumping INT for the save would also increase the chance of landing a Master Strike, but I can't find anything good. The only "game changer" on the 1st level Wizard list (even non-Core) would be Charm Person, everything else being HD restricted or just not that useful in this situation. But with the lower DC, additional save bonus if the target is threatened, and really limited uses per day, it feels like trying to spam Stunning Fist with the Monk, but with all of the things that made that at least plausible removed.

Non-core would get interesting, though. Familiar flanking buddies, Sneaking Precision, and of course Rogue Talent:Ninja Trick... I think non-core Rogue would probably be able to create at least a few interesting gimmicks.


Mort the Cleverly Named wrote:
[The only "game changer" on the 1st level Wizard list (even non-Core) would be Charm Person, everything else being HD restricted or just not that useful in this situation. But with the lower DC, additional save bonus if the target is threatened, and really limited uses per day, it feels like trying to spam Stunning Fist with the Monk, but with all of the things that made that at least plausible removed.

Why a fighter should feel threatened by a rogue?

Sorry, just trolling :p


Eben TheQuiet wrote:
The only fighter build I've seen posted that counters this is the two-kukri, AC-stacking build that basically makes the above monk's ability to actually land the Stunning Fist/Quivering Palm far less likely. Does the venerably-aged, quivering-palm-of-terror monk build have an answer to this?

No even the Venerable Monk will only hit on a 17. Technically, given that the Monk has 21 chances to hit (20 stunning, 1 quivering) odds say he'll get 4 hits (17, 18, 19, 20) which is enough to be pretty sure of a win, assuming a 50% save chance with one reroll, 17 - Saves, 18 - Fails, 18 Rereoll - saves, 19 - Fails, Monk wins. But that's really testing the odds.

The other side to that is the Kukri still has to get a 15 to end the fight, and if the Monk were intelligent at all, the fighter would never get a full attack, so the monk might be able to soak up a couple of mistakes barring a lucky roll from the fighter.


Jodokai, can you link me your build (or the build you're referencing and any changes you'd want to make)? I'm having a hard time tracking it down, though I see you mention it a lot. (Probably a testament to my epic lack of search-fu.)

EDIT: Of course at this point I don' tnow how necessary it is. We've proven that there is a build to be had from the monk side that can challenge and overcome the fighter -- you just need the right monk and fighter in the ring (the same to be said for the reverse, of course).

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

The kukri means that 6/20 are going to crit. But the monk isn't going to survive 20 attack rolls from a fighter unless he spends ki to heal, which depletes the ki usable for stunning fists. Keep in mind he's also blowing ki every round to up his AC...he will probably run out of ki in under 10 rounds, and then he's hosed.

Furthermore, you have to declare quivering palm and stunning fist before you swing, which means a 75% chance the quivering palm is just wasted, and the stunning fists are going to be eating ki.

I thought there was a 2:1 feat allowing you to take two swings while TWF as part of a standard action, which doubles the likelihood of a crit. If so, it will only take two attempted attacks, the kukri will crit, and the monk has a 75% chance of missing each save, and then will suck even if they do make it.

One full attack sequence later, dead monk.

This is actually a fight where Expertise could come in handy. Mithral full plate, a 20+ Dex, shield, shield focus, and +7 to AC with a Trait from Expertise is a 34 AC, 36 if you go for the all out Dex build. Add Fightng Defensively +3 and Dodge +1, and you can hit a 40 AC and the monk can only hit you on a nat 20. Remember, he's probably starting with a +34 to hit. He can afford to 'waste' BAB on fighting defensively or Expertise, and on readied actions it serves better then Power Attack.

You'll have some problems hitting him in return, of course, but that is basically going from auto-hit to 80%. If you get a full attack, just drop the defenses and pray for the crits as your iteratives land.

==Aelryinth


Agreed on most of the above, but i'm guessing the response from the Venerable monk is to stand back and Shot On the Run (is that the feat name?) the fighter from out of range and hopefully using cover.

The kukri build posted doesn't have access to Penetrating Strike chain with his bow, nor does he have any other ranged feats, so his damage out-put against the monk (who has DR 10/chaotic as well as Deflect Arrows) will pretty low (if anything at all).

So we have a monk taking single ranged attacks against the fighter who is either futilely taking return shots with his bow or readying combat-expertise-enhanced single kukri attacks against the monk. i was trying to figure out what the hit-chance per shot of the monk was against the fighter in the latter scenario.

Aelrynth wrote:
I thought there was a 2:1 feat allowing you to take two swings while TWF as part of a standard action, which doubles the likelihood of a crit. If so, it will only take two attempted attacks, the kukri will crit, and the monk has a 75% chance of missing each save, and then will suck even if they do make it.

I'm unaware of any such feat. Anyone know if this feat is core? I can only think of the Two-weapon archetype in the APG that does this, and it's disallowed by the rules of the fight in this thread.

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

The fighter will just use the same cover against the monk that the monk is using to stop him from charging. The monk will run out of ammo before he does any signficant damage to the fighter. Not to mention the default 80% miss chance isn't doing the monk any good.

The monk can only win by landing a stunning palm successfully, and he has to have the ki reserves to do it. He's going to be going through ki like mad trying to land that palm. The fighter has a much better chance of landing the crit then the palm going through.

Note that if Double Strike isn't in PF, the kukri guy is much better off with a shield and AC feats then the TWF tree.

==Aelryinth


alrighty...so I fought the monk this weekend. The guy who was supposed to bring the rogue didn't show up. Here are the results.

Fighter vs. Monk:

Round 1. Monk wins initiative, abundant steps to me and quivering palms me. I roll a TWO on my save. Epic. epic fail.

Round 2. I win initiative, full round attack with my bow. I hit with 4 of my 5 attacks (+many shot). Monk's average HP is 125 or thereabouts. Monk dies a horrible, horrible death.

Round 3. Monk wins initiative, abundant steps to me and quivering palms me. I save like a champ. I quick draw my falchion and save against his stunning fist on his AoO because I drew a weapon. First attack garners a 17. Second attack garners a 14. Third attack is a 19....and I stopped rolling.


Aelryinth wrote:

I thought there was a 2:1 feat allowing you to take two swings while TWF as part of a standard action

I believe it exist in the player handbook II of 3.5 and in some 3pp, but not in PF.


SaschaVikos wrote:


Round 1. Monk wins initiative, abundant steps to me and quivering palms me. I roll a TWO on my save. Epic. epic fail.

you can not use in the same raound abundant steps and quivering palms

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

SaschaVikos wrote:

alrighty...so I fought the monk this weekend. The guy who was supposed to bring the rogue didn't show up. Here are the results.

Fighter vs. Monk:

Round 1. Monk wins initiative, abundant steps to me and quivering palms me. I roll a TWO on my save. Epic. epic fail.

Round 2. I win initiative, full round attack with my bow. I hit with 4 of my 5 attacks (+many shot). Monk's average HP is 125 or thereabouts. Monk dies a horrible, horrible death.

Round 3. Monk wins initiative, abundant steps to me and quivering palms me. I save like a champ. I quick draw my falchion and save against his stunning fist on his AoO because I drew a weapon. First attack garners a 17. Second attack garners a 14. Third attack is a 19....and I stopped rolling.

Since when does drawing a weapon trigger an AoO?

==Aelryinth


Aelryinth wrote:

Since when does drawing a weapon trigger an AoO?

==Aelryinth

I didn't think it did at the time but he swore up and down to me it did so i didn't rules check him. Either way I still saved.

I think the most important thing we all learned was that fighters are incredible damage machines, and that monks, while not necessarily superior in this regard, make up for it in other areas.

What was really eye opening was that we looked over the sheet for the dwarf fighter who started this debate...his feats were something like this at lvl 11:

fleet x2, mobility, spring attack, vital strike, step up, shield focus, one other movement feat I cant remember. He was missing 3 feats.


Nicos wrote:


you can not use in the same raound abundant steps and quivering palms

Really? well, I'm counting that loss as a win for me then. Screw him.


Like I said normally played fighter wins vs normally played monk.

Obviously not everyone is going to play flawlessly like all the monk posters are suggesting because I think the majority of players in PF/D&D are not rules lawyers and doesn't know how to eke out every advantage of terrain, cover, etc..

Most players knows how to get up in someone's face and roll attack though, and no core monk build can stand up to the fighter doing that.


In fairness when I posted the dual wielding Kukri build, it was for surviving the fight of both a monk and a rogue in the 4x4 room that the OP had said (later on) the fight would occur in.

If restricted to just fighting a monk, and NOT in a 4x4 area which I agree hamstrings a monk I would have used a different build. At the least replaceing Blindfighting (which was in the build for dealing with the rogue) with Weapon Focus Bow (to trade snap shots) or more likley going with a non dual wielder.


SaschaVikos wrote:
Nicos wrote:


you can not use in the same raound abundant steps and quivering palms

Really? well, I'm counting that loss as a win for me then. Screw him.

Yeah, dimension door specifically says you lose all other actions for the round after doing it. So that's totally not legit at all.

If you want to go outside of core, then the dimensional feat chain from UC allows you to do cool shenanigens, but it requires feat investment.

Also, even if drawing a weapon might normally trigger AoOs, you have quickdraw, and last I checked swift actions don't trigger AoOs. For example swift action spell casting doesn't provoke AoOs. So that was b#+#!@~$ as well.


SaschaVikos wrote:
Aelryinth wrote:

Since when does drawing a weapon trigger an AoO?

==Aelryinth

I didn't think it did at the time but he swore up and down to me it did so i didn't rules check him. Either way I still saved.

I think the most important thing we all learned was that fighters are incredible damage machines, and that monks, while not necessarily superior in this regard, make up for it in other areas.

What was really eye opening was that we looked over the sheet for the dwarf fighter who started this debate...his feats were something like this at lvl 11:

fleet x2, mobility, spring attack, vital strike, step up, shield focus, one other movement feat I cant remember. He was missing 3 feats.

And no power attack... or weapon focus, or weapon spec. Did the dude at least accept that fighters deal better damage after your demonstration?


SaschaVikos wrote:
fleet x2, mobility, spring attack, vital strike, step up, shield focus, one other movement feat I cant remember. He was missing 3 feats.

Yah... um... just yah.

Why would he think he's going to be doing a lot of damage? He doesn't' have the feats to do so, and the feats he does have don't support what he does best... standing and fighting.

And if you want a tactical, mobile fighter, why would you go with a dwarf fighter?


Since it's no-magic, could a sniping rogue with Bleeding Attack pretty successfully whittle down the fighter?

1st round = Rogue hits fighter with bleeding attack, ducks behind cover to prevent a charge. Fighter uses heal check (assuming he has ranks in it, which seems a little unlikely) to stop the bleeding, but that requires a standard action.
2nd Round = Rogue hides, Fighter looks around but doesn't find him - even if he's maxed out Perception to +20 (most of these builds don't appear to have put Wis over 10), a rogue could pretty easily get the advantage with skill focus and the relevant +2/+2 feat (after level 10, those feats grant +6 and +4 to the related skills, respectively, for a total of +10). So Rogue Favored Class training +3, Dex of +5, max ranks of +20, +10 from skill feats gives a rogue a what, a +38 stealth vs. the fighter's +20 perception? Pretty good odds there.
3rd Round = See 1st round.

I'm a little unclear on how stealth/sniping typically work in combat (my group has never really tried it), but this seems like it would be an effective (albeit slow) way for the rogue to get the win.


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So the monk outright cheated in two of the three fights (acting after abundant steps and then later claiming a non-existent AoO from you drawing a weapon -- only sheathing one provokes), and you STILL won the rubber match.

Also...bad "Fighter in poorly conceived gladiator match" not having Imp. Great Fortitude. :p

I have to say, though, Abundant Stepping to you every time is quite possibly the dumbest freaking monk "strategy" he could have possibly employed, so that side wasn't well represented. Oh well, he cheated like crazy, screw him. Hope you won some good money.

Scarab Sages

Quick draw is a free action, not a swift action.


Eben TheQuiet wrote:
Jodokai, can you link me your build (or the build you're referencing and any changes you'd want to make)? I'm having a hard time tracking it down, though I see you mention it a lot. (Probably a testament to my epic lack of search-fu.)

Monk:
"Shady"

Dwarf Monk 20

Starting: Str 10, Dex 16, Con 16, Int 7, Wis 19, Cha 5
Final: Str 10, Dex 16, Con 16, Int 7, Wis 24, Cha 5
*****EDIT: I forgot Timeless Body! Actual final stats are..
Str 10, Dex 16, Con 16, Int 10, Wis 27, Cha 8

Kinda makes me want to notch that starting wis 19 up to 20 some how...*****

Feats: Weapon Finesse, Dodge, Toughness, Extra Ki, Spring Attack, Wind Stance, Improved Initiative, Point Blank and Rapid Shot, some others that matter less...

This is the build Stream posted, and the one I've been going off. If Venerable was used, I'd drop CON down 2 WIS down 1 and raise DEX to 18 (combination of points and Level bonus). If Venerable is off the table, I'd use the stats as is.

The feats are about what I'd use but add Deflect Arrows.

Some things about what others have said: Stunning Fist doesn't require Ki, so the monk could keep up the +4 to AC for about 17 rounds depending on how many Extra Ki feats were used.

The fighter can use as much cover as he wants, the difference is that the monk has enough movement to get around the cover, shoot, and find his own cover (Shot on the run).

And "normal fight"? I think I finally understand why everyone says Fighters are so much better than monks despite this thread: If everyone considers a "normal fight" standing in adjacent squares trading blows, there's not much a fighter can't take out in that type of "normal fight".

Really what we're looking at though is either the fighter doesn't attack and readies an action, until the monk runs out of arrows/bolts and then it's a draw (fighter could never catch the monk). Or the fighter attacks and takes the Stunning Fist. The high AC fighter avoids/saves enough times times and the monk runs out of stunning fist, and it becomes a draw (again, the fighter can't catch the monk).

If a monk plays it smart (which, he wasn't in the actual battle) the best the fighter can hope for is a draw.


What if the kukri fight build traded his kukri's for a bandolier of a few dozen daggers and traded Power Attack for Deadly Aim? Then his overall damage might go down but his AC would stay very high and he would be able to throw daggers at the monk in return for the crossbow bolts. The damage of each dagger with Deadly Aim would still be in the high 20s with a 30% chance of a 3x crit.

If the monk gets fed up of the one sided shot trading game he closes on the fighter who has a dagger in each hand and be ready with a full attack.
I realize that this brings us back to the spring attack, and who can score their 'I Win' move first but this build gives the fighter a way to deal with the shot on the run trick.


Crossbow has longer range than daggers.


but at this kind of level, the penalties for longer range brackets won't make a lot of difference. The fighter has something like a +25 on his to-hit rolls. If the monk wants to get far enough away to be safe from the daggers then he'll have to be outside the range where his spring attack will allow him to attack and stay safe from reprisal by the fighter next turn.


Dagger max range is 50 ft. Light Crossbow has 80 ft. basic range, or up to 800 ft. The Monk can shoot from a safe distance.


wargamer wrote:

What if the kukri fight build traded his kukri's for a bandolier of a few dozen daggers and traded Power Attack for Deadly Aim? Then his overall damage might go down but his AC would stay very high and he would be able to throw daggers at the monk in return for the crossbow bolts. The damage of each dagger with Deadly Aim would still be in the high 20s with a 30% chance of a 3x crit.

If the monk gets fed up of the one sided shot trading game he closes on the fighter who has a dagger in each hand and be ready with a full attack.
I realize that this brings us back to the spring attack, and who can score their 'I Win' move first but this build gives the fighter a way to deal with the shot on the run trick.

The real issue is how many daggers are you throwing? The first one get knocked away be deflect (with the possibility of getting thrown back, if the monk goes down that line), and once you aren't readying an action, you open yourself up to Spring Attack. The other question is, how many daggers can you carry?


Ok, modifying the Kukrui build a little since it was originally set up for the monk and rogue vs fighter in 4x4 room.

1) Drop the following feats. It is unlikley a monk wil go toe to toe with a fighter so MOST of the 2 weapon fighting feats adn damage feats are not needed. Blindfightnig was there primarily for the rogue.

Improved two weapon fighting
Greater Two weapon fighting
Blind Fight
Great Specialization Kukri
Weapon Specialization Kukri
Greater Weapon Focus Kukri

2) Replace those feats with the following.

Weapon Finesse
Improved Unarmed Combat
Weapon Focus Unarmed strike
Deflect Arrows
Improved Trip
Greater Trip

Fighter is now immune to crossbow due to deflect arrows.

If monk comes in Fighter uses a Readied action to TRIP the monk and then takes his attack of opportunity (from greater trip) with the Kukri.

Monk will have a decent CMB due to the high wisdom but I think warrior should still have a reasonable chance of tripping him, much better then the monk has of actually landing a hit.

Just doing some quick math I figure CMB for trip attempt is 20 (bab) + 5 (dex due to weapon finesse) +3(Weapon training) +1 (Weapon focus Unarmed) +4 (Improved and greater trip) = 33.

Wha was the CMD for the Venerable monk?


As posted, it would be 10 +15 BAB +3 dex +8 wis +5 monk +1 dodge. And he's a dwarf, so +4 stability against tripping. So that is... CMD 46 against trips.

(I was considering filling out one of his MANY remaining feat slots w/ Defensive Combat Training to boost CMD by 5, but I have a feeling people are going to call me Shroedinger if I do that now :) )

EDIT: Forgot strength, but it's +0 anyway.


StreamOfTheSky wrote:

As posted, it would be 10 +15 BAB +3 dex +8 wis +5 monk +1 dodge. And he's a dwarf, so +4 stability against tripping. So that is... CMD 46 against trips.

(I was considering filling out one of his MANY remaining feat slots w/ Defensive Combat Training to boost CMD by 5, but I have a feeling people are going to call me Shroedinger if I do that now :) )

Hmm so 51 CMD (gving you the benefit of CMD) means trip on a 18 vs hit on a 17. That would give you the advantage (slightly). The fighter would be better to just attack with kukri when you came in critting on a 15 or higher to your hitting on a 17 which would be advantage fighter.

The trip build idea works better if you do not have Defensive Combat training giving me a 13 against your 17 but that still does not guarantee a crit just two attacks. I am ashamed to admit I forgot about the +5 bonus for monk due to AC bonus, my bad.

Best way for the fighter to go is just attack with kukri when you come in. So I wasted a few feats on trip but fighters can waste some. To me it looks like your best bet is a 17 to hit followed by the fighter missing a save, the fighters best bet is a 15 followed by you missing one of 2 saves DC 30.

Odds favor the fighter, but the first to miss a save dies.


Yeah, it basically just comes down to rocket tag. Turning it into that is the best the monk can do, because even if crits were houseruled out and none of the save-based stuff was allowed and the two had to actually duke it out rolling attack and damage till someone's hp dropped, monk would lose very very badly.

Never mind that aside from that, Fighter just needs to roll a single 15 to crit and end the fight w/o such houserules. Monk's goal needs to be letting the fighter attack as little as possible while maximizing his own amount of attacks w/ fort saves attached.

So yeah, rocket tag.


What else where you expecting?


ImperatorK wrote:
What else where you expecting?

The funny thing is that I assumed everyone expected the level of rocket tag to be lower (at least I did), since there isn't any archetype focusing/magic items boosting stuff.

Though I think the biggest thing is that a lot of the big defensive feats are outside of the core book, and without magic items AC is extremely lower.


How about this?

So this is a concept I had considered playing in a campaign of a friend of mine. It was inspired by the switch-hitter ranger, but the group needed someone who could stand in as a tank as well.

His concept works really well in this situation, I think. Fighter bonuses for hit/damage with both melee and ranged. Dex build keeps his AC, initiative, and reflex decent-to-high. And Combat Expertise makes it possible for him to sky-rocket his AC when needed. He's never lacking for options with his ability with decent melee and ranged capabilities. His damage is pretty fair when power attacking/deadly aiming (and he can even keep his attack modifier up while using either of those in conjunction with Combat Expertise).

His decent damage becomes much more impressive with crits, especially considering those crits triple his elven curved blade damage on top of staggering the victim.

He's good to go from level 1 - 20, and he doesn't rely on age to make his staggering criticals painful (which just means that he can do it throughout his adventuring career as well as in our tiny rock 'em sock 'em arena box).

Joe Regular the Elf Adventurer:

CR 19
Male Elf Fighter 20
LN Medium Humanoid (Elf)
Init +7; Senses Low-Light Vision; Perception +22
--------------------
DEFENSE
--------------------
AC 26, touch 17, flat-footed 19. . (+9 armor, +7 Dex)
hp 164 (20d10+20)
Fort +14, Ref +13, Will +8
Defensive Abilities Bravery +5; DR 5/&#151;; Immune sleep; Resist Elven Immunities
--------------------
OFFENSE
--------------------
Spd 30 ft.
Melee Adamantine Curve Blade, Elven +33/+28/+23/+18 (1d10+7/15-20/x3) and
. . Gauntlet (from Armor) +27/+22/+17/+12 (1d3+2/20/x2) and
. . Unarmed Strike +29/+24/+19/+14 (1d3+4/20/x2)
Ranged Darkwood Longbow, Composite (Str +2) +32/+27/+22/+17 (1d8+5/20/x3)
Special Attacks Weapon Training: Blades, Heavy, Weapon Training: Bows, Weapon Training: Natural, Weapon Training: Pole Arms
--------------------
STATISTICS
--------------------
Str 14, Dex 24, Con 11, Int 13, Wis 10, Cha 7
Base Atk +20; CMB +22; CMD 39
Feats Combat Expertise +/-6, Critical Focus, Deadly Aim -6/+12, Deflect Arrows, Elven Weapon Proficiencies, Great Fortitude, Greater Penetrating Strike, Improved Critical: Curve Blade, Elven, Improved Great Fortitude (1/day), Improved Iron Will (1/day), Improved Unarmed Strike, Iron Will, Penetrating Strike, Point Blank Shot, Power Attack -6/+12, Quick Draw, Rapid Shot, Staggering Critical (DC 30), Toughness +20, Weapon Finesse, Weapon Focus: Curve Blade, Elven, Weapon Focus: Longbow
Skills Climb +6, Intimidate +10, Knowledge (Dungeoneering) +7, Perception +22, Stealth +27, Survival +9, Swim +6
Languages Common, Draconic, Elven
SQ Armor Mastery (Ex), Armor Training 4 (Ex), Elven Magic, Weapon Mastery: Curve Blade, Elven (Ex)
Combat Gear Adamantine Curve Blade, Elven, Darkwood Longbow, Composite (Str +2), Mithral Full Plate;
--------------------
SPECIAL ABILITIES
--------------------
Armor Mastery (Ex) DR 5/- while wearing armor
Armor Training 4 (Ex) Worn armor -4 check penalty, +4 max DEX.
Bravery +5 (Ex) +5 Will save vs. Fear
Combat Expertise +/-6 Bonus to AC in exchange for an equal penalty to attack.
Critical Focus +4 to confirm critical hits.
Damage Reduction (5/-) You have Damage Reduction against all attacks.
Deadly Aim -6/+12 Trade a penalty to ranged attacks for a bonus to ranged damage.
Deflect Arrows Deflect an incoming arrow once per round.
Elven Immunities +2 save bonus vs Enchantments.
Elven Immunities - Sleep You are immune to Sleep effects.
Elven Magic +2 racial bonus on caster checks to overcome spell resistance. +2 to spellcraft checks to determine the properties of a magic item.
Greater Penetrating Strike Ignore up to 10 points of DR/? or 5 points of DR/–.
Improved Great Fortitude (1/day) 1/day, re-roll a Fort save.
Improved Iron Will (1/day) 1/day, re-roll a Will save.
Improved Unarmed Strike Unarmed strikes don't cause attacks of opportunity, and can be lethal.
Low-Light Vision See twice as far as a human in low light, distinguishing color and detail.
Penetrating Strike Ignore up to 5 points of DR/?.
Point Blank Shot +1 to attack and damage rolls with ranged weapons at up to 30 feet.
Power Attack -6/+12 You can subtract from your attack roll to add to your damage.
Quick Draw Draw a weapon as a free action. Throw at full rate of attacks.
Rapid Shot You get an extra attack with ranged weapons. Each attack is at -2.
Staggering Critical (DC 30) Critical hit staggers target
Weapon Mastery: Curve Blade, Elven (Ex) Chosen weapon has an improved critical multiplier, always confirms criticals, and cannot be disarmed.
Weapon Training: Blades, Heavy +4 (Ex) +4 Attack, Damage, CMB, CMD with Heavy Blades
Weapon Training: Bows +3 (Ex) +3 Attack, Damage, CMB, CMD with Bows
Weapon Training: Natural +2 (Ex) +2 Attack, Damage, CMB, CMD with Natural weapons
Weapon Training: Pole Arms +1 (Ex) +1 Attack, Damage, CMB, CMD with Pole Arms

So how does either of the posted monks (specifically talking about Jodokai's and Stream's) plan to beat this guy? He'd pretty much immediately begin by readying an action to attack in melee should the monk close and saying (only with a slightly elvish accent) "Come get some." Everyone around (including the old-ass monk) has their skirt blown up by his obvious awesomeness.

Joe Regular the Elf Adventurer is standing here with his AC of 38, his hands free (remember he can draw his weapon as a free action on the attack itself) to deflect a surprisingly-accurate ranged attack, and even with Combat Expertise + Power Attack he can post a +21 attack roll bonus (a roll of 15 or higher forcing a DC 30 fort save to be staggered for an average of 3.5 rounds -- not to mention a success merely reducing the duration by 1 round).

All I can figure is that the monk is hoping to beat the fighter's initiative and have the fighter fail two successive (albeit difficult -- needs a 14 or higher, i think) fortitude saves… a feat requiring three dice rolls going his way.

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