Can people drop the DR 10 argument? Greater Penetrating Strike. It's been mentioned like 5 times now. Ignore 10 points of DR. Works with ANY weapon attack. And in a core-only game, yes, a Fighter seriously has nothing better to do w/ his high level feats than get it.
The DR 10 is completely moot.
Not so fast kids.
20th level monk can spring attack the fighter to death if no magic weapons (base movement is 90 ft) and would catch the first ranged attack.
Readied Action, reach weapon. Greater Vital Strike will do lots of damage, or trip, then AoO from Greater Trip. Another AoO from getting up. Fighter has pretty awesome CMB if he wants it.
No magic items means no magic weapons/armor. The monk starts off with a +5 to armor, before adding wisdom. With even a 16 wisdom they have the same as full plate.
The fighter just has full plate, full dex bonus to it as well, and DR 5/- and if he has gone sword & board, shield bonus.
Perfect self is DR/10 Chaotic. And without cloaks, Fighters +12 fort isn't that great against quivering palm, which could end the whole thing instantly.
Greater Penetrating Strike. Add Con bonus to Fort save, Great Fortitude and Improved Great Fortitude, and even if the monk gets close enough quivering palm and stunning fist may not work.
It's a cheese scenario, it has no real meaning, but with this scenario, Monk wins.
It's up in the air. But one thing is certain, the monk isn't going to win from damage.
I'd say the Monk would have a chance if the other books were allowed but core only there is no way a Monk can beat the fighter.
The rogue might have chance with USD but the saves are kind of low and 20th level fighter should be able to make them. The highest DC is 23 for 9th level spell on scroll. A 20th level fighter has 17 will save bonus (6 base, 4 stat, 2 feat, and 5 cloak). This could be even higher if the fighter went with more than +1 wisdom bonus with headband +6.
My mistake no magic, no spells then from UMD. That really cripples rogue. The Monk is still toast though.
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that and stunning fist are the best strategiies for the monk, note taht the fighter fort save will be around +15.Not so fast kids.
And without cloaks, Fighters +12 fort isn't that great against quivering palm, which could end the whole thing instantly.
If the monk has a 16 wisdom, the save is 23.
The above monk's ac (before dex) is +9, same as full plate, with the ability to add +4 as a swift action, which considering I have 13 ki points, why wouldn't I burn it. And I'm moving at +60
They have DR/10, do 2d10 damage and can get 8 attacks if they burn a ki, from anywhere if they took the dimension door feats.
Ready an action to do what? Bow without magic will do what against 10/DR that can self heal? Get in trouble, I turn ethereal or dimension door away and heal.
Greater Penetrating Strike removes the DR. You can try to run away, but you are going to have to burn a heck of a lot of ki between empty body and trying to heal yourself back up. With only 10-13 in the pool, you aren't going to be able to pull this over and over.
Even if the monk only has a 13 wisdom, quivering palm is going to be a DC 23 save against a +12 bonus. If you cheese wisdom, it is even worse (and your AC is even higher...) and since I can burn ki, if it doesn't work my AC is going to be another +4 higher, in addition to the natural +5, in addition to the bonus from Wisdom.
A Monk with 13 Wisdom would have a DC of 21, not 23. You also only get one shot at it a day, and if the attack misses it is gone. Since the Fighter will only be needing Fortitude saves, it is almost a given he would have taken Improved Great Fortitude. Even with a 14 Con, you are looking at around a 4% chance of landing the Palm (minus chance of missing the strike entirely). Not exactly something to bank on.
And this isn't even digging into Quiggong stuff.
OP specified Core only.
Like I said, this scenario means nothing, but the monk wins if no magic items are involved.
The Monk is only going to win with a lucky Quivering Palm or Stunning Fist. The Fighter just needs a Full Attack or two to kill the monk. I know who my money is on.
The real problem that the monk is going to run into is the Fighter's critical feats.
Sure, the fighter has a chance of failing a save against the monks Quivering Palm or Stunning Fist, but if the fighter has Stunning Critical and even *threatens* a crit, the monk will be staggered for 1d4 rounds. Remember, Fighters auto confirm crits with one weapon at level 20. The monk will be stunned for 1d4 rounds if he fails the DC 30 fort save....
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Let's say I just build a pure damage monk, max out strength and ignore everything else.
I can dimension door in to a full attack, the first of which will be a quivering palm and could end it right there. The fighte would be flat-footed, so max AC is going to be 19 (full plate, no magic). I can either throw another attack on top for 8 attacks at 2d10 + strength, or I can burn a ki point for a +4 to AC, on top of the +5 natural, before adding wisdom and Dex.
And that is just one way to do it. If you don't kill me on the counter, I dimension door away, burn ki to heal, and come back and do it again, because you can't heal and I can.
This isn't the best way to do it, again not even going to quingong stuff which would make it completely lopsided, but with magic out of the picture the fighter has more trouble than the monk.
When you take magic out of the equation, the monk is at a huge advantage at level 20.
I can dimension door in to a full attack
Pretty tough when Abundant Step is a move action. Also, as it copies dimension door, you still wouldn't be allowed to do anything after you used it.
And that is just one way to do it. If you don't kill me on the counter, I dimension door away, burn ki to heal, and come back and do it again, because you can't heal and I can.
Abundant Step+Extra Attack+Abundant Step+Wholeness of Body+Abundant Step=9 ki. Even if it worked, you could do this once.
This isn't the best way to do it, again not even going to quingong stuff which would make it completely lopsided.
Core. Only.
The fighter would be flat-footed why? he could have a Greater Vital Strike waiting for you on a readied action. A crit, and you are staggered. He saves vs your quivering palm, and you have a big problem of a full-attacking fighter more likely to critical than not.
Abundant Step and Wholeness of Body will burn through your ki like crazy, you won't manage to heal much. This is core only, so abundant step ends your turn anyway.
You appear next to the fighter. He full attacks you. He will likely get a crit in there. Now you are staggered. All you can do is abundant step out, or try quivering palm and if it fails, die.
Even if the Dimension Dervish feats were allowed in this situation, it requires a swift action to activate... so no +4 to AC and no extra attack.
Not so fast kids.
20th level monk can spring attack the fighter to death if no magic weapons (base movement is 90 ft) and would catch the first ranged attack.
No magic items means no magic weapons/armor. The monk starts off with a +5 to armor, before adding wisdom. With even a 16 wisdom they have the same as full plate.
Perfect self is DR/10 Chaotic. And without cloaks, Fighters +12 fort isn't that great against quivering palm, which could end the whole thing instantly.
It's a cheese scenario, it has no real meaning, but with this scenario, Monk wins.
The monk's modifier can get up to +6 most likely.
10+10+6=26 DC for Quivering palm.Fighter get +12 +3(least I would expect for on) +2 great fort= +17.
If he took the other fort feat he can roll twice.
As for spring attack a readied action handles that, and if the monk tries to stand in deliver things will not go well. I would suggest the fighter trip the monk though.
Of course since the GM, according to the OP said this was about damage I am guessing this will be a "stand and deliver" contest.
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I think everyone is thinking of a fighter with magic weapons.
Let's DD in, the monk is hitting on anything but a 1 on the first attack, so basically it is if quivering palm works or not. So we have basically a 40% chance of auto death/game over off the jump.
The monk gets either 7 attacks at 2d10 + strength and a +4 to ac, or 8 attacks at full BAB two weapon fighting progression.
The monk can heal 20 points with 2 ki points, and they have at least 10 ki points.
A 20th level fighter with magic weapons kills anything it gets a full attack on. If the fighter can take my 7 or 8 attacks and survive, they have to kill me next round, or else I get way, heal, and come back and do it again.
If I quiggong, I can barkskin up another +5, or scorching ray a bit before I move in, battlemind it up if I really want to be sure I hit, etc...but I don't want to drift to far into Schrodinger's monk.
Off the bat I'm going to hit on anything but a 1 with the quivering palm/stunning fist attack, so it comes down to if you save or not, and if I survive.
If I were doing it, I would cheese up wisdom to make the save higher and make myself harder to hit.
EDIT:
Sorry just realized it was core only.
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I didn't even think of Armor and Weapon Mastery, wow! Yeah, Fighter really owns this. Get that man a Falchion with Improved Crit and Stunning Crit! I am starting to think Fighter can take both monk and rogue at once...
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I think everyone is thinking of a fighter with magic weapons.No, we're thinking of Core only, and the fact that the fighter gets Weapon/Armor Training over the monk.
Armor training adds dex bonus, but without magic items, how much dex is the fighter adding?
Weapon training is nice, but it is only a +4 damage/hit.
Quivering palm is going to pretty much auto hit (anything but a 1) and can be easily made better than 50/50. If not quivering palm, at 20th I can try to paralysis for 1d6 rounds next time.
Against the ranged fighter I can DD toe to toe, since you are going to need to give up something to get your Dex up, and I think I can survive a round, retreat to heal, then come back and do it again.
Against the melee, I'll spring attack stun/quivering to death, adding in all of the stun effects if I don't kill you outright on the first attack.
If you win initiative and ready to trip me, I'm just going to wait for you to come to me or move in a classic mexican standoff, preferable behind cover so can't charge me, but I can spring attack you.
Once I've stunned enough effects t
Dimension Door doesn't let you perform an attack after using it. Dimension Door
If the fighter takes the critical line of feats you are effectively locked down once a crit lands.
Stunning Critical (Combat, Critical)
Your critical hits cause opponents to become stunned.
Prerequisites: Critical Focus, Staggering Critical, base attack bonus +17.
Benefit: Whenever you score a critical hit, your opponent becomes stunned for 1d4 rounds. A successful Fortitude save reduces this to staggered for 1d4 rounds. The DC of this Fortitude save is equal to 10 + your base attack bonus. The effects of this feat do not stack. Additional hits instead add to the duration.
Special: You can only apply the effects of one critical feat to a given critical hit unless you possess Critical Mastery.
As I said before even with a ranged fighter dex does not have to be that high. Get rapid shot, and deadly aim(bypass DR somewhat). No need to get manyshot.
The monk will most likely survive the barrage of arrows, and close with the fighter.
To get things back on track though the GM is suggesting a damage dealing contest, not a "who will win if everyone plays smart" contest.
Weapon training is nice, but it is only a +4 damage/hit.
And +4 to hit. Probably the more important bit.
Quivering palm is going to pretty much auto hit (anything but a 1) and can be easily made better than 50/50. If not quivering palm, at 20th I can try to paralysis for 1d6 rounds next time.
Your maximum possible Wisdom will be 25. That means a DC of 27. A Fighter with 14 Con and Improved Greater Fortitude is going to have a +16, meaning your best possible scenario is a 47.5% chance of landing it. 23.75% if he uses IGF.
Against the ranged fighter I can DD toe to toe, since you are going to need to give up something to get your Dex up, and I think I can survive a round, retreat to heal, then come back and do it again.
Against the melee, I'll spring attack stun/quivering to death, adding in all of the stun effects if I don't kill you outright on the first attack.
We have already determined your retreating strategy doesn't work. It burns all your ki, and lets the Fighter get a Full Attack on you while you are running or Abundant Stepping in. You can try to use Spring Attack, but will still be facing readied actions. Worse, if you don't have total cover to hide behind.
You can try to stun all you want, but that is hardly an advantage over the Fighter. While you have a 50/50 shot (at the absolute maximum) of getting one of your abilities to work, all the Fighter needs is a single threatened critical. Then you get to save vs DC30 against Stunning, and even if you succeed you are staggered for 1d4 rounds. Plus whatever other critical effect the Fighter chooses from Critical Mastery.
If you win initiative and ready to trip me, I'm just going to wait for you to come to me or move in a classic mexican standoff, preferable behind cover so can't charge me, but I can spring attack you.
If the Fighter wins initiative you are going to take a ranged full attack. Thanks to buckets of feats and weapon trainings, even a melee Fighter is pretty deadly with a bow. If the Fighter is ranged oriented, you may well be dead.
I think everyone is thinking of a fighter with magic weapons.
Nope. Just Weapon Focus, Greater Weapon Focus, Weapons Specialisation, Greater Weapons Specialisation, Weapon Training. That's +6 to hit and +8 to damage there and then. With a 24 strength that's +35 to hit with a masterwork weapon and +16 damage, +20 with a two-handed weapon. Power-attacking that's +29 to hit and either +28 damage or +38 damage two handed.
Now let's say he's got a falchion and Improved Critical, his attacks vs the monk's 25 AC are +29/+24/+19/+14. That's 95%/95%/75%/50% or 315% x 43 (average 2d4+38) damage. Odds of a critical are 30% (15-20 threat range) per hit with no confirm check required (capstone ability) for x3 damage (capstone ability) which is an additional 120% hits x 2, so our total average damage for a full attack on the monk is 435% x 43 = 187.05 mean DPR on a full attack.
Is a level 20 monk going to have that many hit points with no magic boosters?
Let's DD in,
...and that ends your turn. This is core, remember? The fighter than full attacks you. Dead Monk.
the monk is hitting on anything but a 1 on the first attack, so basically it is if quivering palm works or not. So we have basically a 40% chance of auto death/game over off the jump.
I don't make it that. You have DC23 on the attack, because there are no magic boosters and you put all your incremental boosters into strength or dex just so you could score the hit in the first place.
The fighter has +12 basic on his Fort save, plus his Con, plus Greater Fortitude and Improved GF. Now we boosted strength up a lot, so Con is secondary so assume a 14 Con, for +16 in total with a re-roll. He succeeds on a 7+, a 70% success rate. With the re-roll, your chance of success is less than 10%.
The monk gets either 7 attacks at 2d10 + strength and a +4 to ac, or 8 attacks at full BAB two weapon fighting progression.
Assuming he doesn't dimension door in. That takes the fighter's total odds down to 355% x 43 = 152.65 DPR. Probably more hit points than the monk has.
On the flip side, the fighter has 20d10+60 hit points with favoured class, so standing up to the monk's attack isn't hard. Assuming your monk has an 18 strength to begin with, a 23 after bonuses gives him +6 to hit and damage. With Weapon Specialisation his highest bonus is +25, and the fighter's AC is probably only around 20 (plate armour + dodge).
So monk hits for +25/+25/+20/+20/+15/+15/+10 (you used ki to boost AC, remember), or with Power Attack +20/+20/+15/+15/+10/+10/+5 for +10 damage per hit. That's 95%/95%/75%/75%/50%/50%/25% or 465%, with 10% added for critical hits = 511.5% of average damage, which is 2d10+6+10 = 27 damage. That's 138.105 DPR.
Now let's look at average HP, say max at 1st level +half max +1 per level. Assume favoured class bonus is all in HP:
Fighter (14 Con remember) = 20d10+60 = 10+(19x6)+60 = 184
Monk (everything in Strength and Wis) = 8+(19x5)+20 = 123
Result, the monk pops up, gets surprise maybe, full attacks, and uses quivering palm. Then there is a 90% chance that the fighter kills him.
I will concede, non-core adds some fun to the monk, but it adds some to the fighter too.
Well but the Monks Stunning Fist is still the most dangerous weapon in this challenge. At level 20 he can paralyze his opponent for 1d6+1rounds
and then just coup the grace him to death.With a starting level of 20 and no need to survive the levels before you might as well max Wisdom to 18 and stuff your level advancements in there too so thats DC25 vs what maybe +15/16/17 on the fighters fort save.With 90ft movement spring attack,dodge/mobility,lightning Stance,deflect arrows and 20 stunning fist plus a quivering palm he could definately win this.
But pure DPR? Thats clearly the fighter.
BTW you cannot ready a Full attack action as its a Full round action so the strike and retreat strategy does in fact work.
Stunning Fist advances with a Monks Level.
At 16th level you get to Paralyze for 1d6+1 rounds and that makes you helpless and ready for a coup de grace. And with 20 tries even a 20.25% chance will realize sooner or later.
Stunning Fist advances with a Monks Level.
At 16th level you get to Paralyze for 1d6+1 rounds and that makes you helpless and ready for a coup de grace. And with 20 tries even a 20.25% chance will realize sooner or later.
At best you're gambling the Fighter's 30% chance to crit (falchion) versus the Monk's 20+% to paralyze. If/when the Fighter crits, the Monk dies (stunning critical).
Well but the Monks Stunning Fist is still the most dangerous weapon in this challenge. At level 20 he can paralyze his opponent for 1d6+1rounds
In this example, would you bet your life on a <10% chance of success?
BTW you cannot ready a Full attack action as its a Full round action so the strike and retreat strategy does in fact work.
Nobody said anything about readying full attacks. You only use Ready Action in the absolute worst case scenario, which was the Monk Spring Attacking from behind total cover. Less than total cover or Abundant Stepping in, and the Monk faces full attacks (whether melee or ranged). Ciretose wanted to Abundant Step in and out of the fight while using Wholeness of Body to heal. Besides the fact you can't Abundant Step in and attack, the idea burned through the Monks entire ki pool in one go around. It isn't an effective strategy.
At 16th level you get to Paralyze for 1d6+1 rounds and that makes you helpless and ready for a coup de grace. And with 20 tries even a 20.25% chance will realize sooner or later.
20 tries is irrelevant. The fight simply is not going to last that long. You would need to paralyze the Fighter before he threatened even a single critical on you, let alone got a full attack. With one Stunning Fist a round and the Fighter's chance to save, your chances of that aren't particularly good.
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Yeah, the fighter will win this. It doesn't matter what tricks are available. He's packing DR/-, the highest AC of the group, an attack bonus that basically guarantees all his attacks will hit vs. unmagically armored opponents, and the crit feats and crit range to ensure that he gets to inflict plenty of match-winning status effects.
The monk has a few cool things he can do, as does the rogue. But that's just it... they're a few cool things, and their damage can't even come CLOSE.
The monk probably stands the best chance with all his CC abilities. That rogue is just SCREWED.
The monk gets a save versus stunning critical too, and he can also have.Improved Great Fortitude so even with the higher DC on stunning Critical the Fighters Chance is significantly lower as he has to land a crit first.
The monk gets a save versus stunning critical too, and he can also have.Improved Great Fortitude so even with the higher DC on stunning Critical the Fighters Chance is significantly lower as he has to land a crit first.
Weapon Mastery automatically confirms critical threats. The DC is 30, and your Monk is going to be lucky to afford the 14 Con of a Fighter with his maximized Wisdom and, presumably, a few points of Strength so he can actually hit. Even if he had the same +16, he only has a 35% chance of saving. Then he gets to save again, or be blind. And even if he makes both, he is automatically staggered and dazzled. This, all if the Monk even survives a (minimally) triple damage critical.
The monk just isn't winning this one.
I concede.
It still could work though:)
The monk gets a save versus stunning critical too, and he can also have.Improved Great Fortitude so even with the higher DC on stunning Critical the Fighters Chance is significantly lower as he has to land a crit first.
Crit range of 15-20, four attacks a round = 120% chance of a critical that is automatically confirmed - ironically the fighter has a better chance of landing a critical than the monk has of landing the quivering palm blow (95%). The monk can take the feats, but he's got lower con and he's got less feats to burn, and it really doesn't matter because the fighter is dishing out enough damage in a round to kill the monk outright anyway.
Edit: I forgot the DR for the fighter in the example above, the monk actually only does 112.53 DPR to the fighter.
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Actually I said you could abundant step in to full attack, or just use your +60 movement to spring attack.
If any of the spring attacks work for either quivering palm or paralysis, fight over.
The monk can try that up to 20 times.
Also the monk gets more than 10 feats. Bonus feat at 1st, 2nd, 6th, 10th, 14th, and 18th for a total of 16 (17 if human)
Well a Ninja at 20th is kinda unbeatable.(and a Ninja is technically a rouge so...)
With magic it changes a lot and would depend a lot on match ups and environment.
I don't see a discussion of it not involving both sides being Schrodinger's version of the class.
Pretty much this. I think this thread has done a good job of showing that even with no magic this type of high level fight is kind of a gimmick contest. Quivering Palm lands, Fighter dies. Critical lands, Monk dies. Magic will just make this crazier, adding a huge number of extra gimmicks and counter-gimmicks. In the end, you'd probably just have two characters using Use Magic Device to fire 9th level scrolls at each other.
Scrolls that change between every post, of course.
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You cannot abundant step for a full attack you can do it and get a standard action.
Quivering palm may only be used 1/day
We've already covered that a fighter can easily get a fort of +16 without magical items, racial stuff, or traits and you get two saves.
Spring attack won't do jack if he pulls out a bow and fires off 5-6 shots that will easily beat your AC and bypass your DR
Perhaps you are unfamiliar with this feat.. But it is moot since it isn't core.
However what is core is that stunning fist causes paralysis for 1d6+1 rounds at 20th level.