Fighter vs. Rogue or Monk


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Can people drop the DR 10 argument? Greater Penetrating Strike. It's been mentioned like 5 times now. Ignore 10 points of DR. Works with ANY weapon attack. And in a core-only game, yes, a Fighter seriously has nothing better to do w/ his high level feats than get it.

The DR 10 is completely moot.


ciretose wrote:

Not so fast kids.

20th level monk can spring attack the fighter to death if no magic weapons (base movement is 90 ft) and would catch the first ranged attack.

Readied Action, reach weapon. Greater Vital Strike will do lots of damage, or trip, then AoO from Greater Trip. Another AoO from getting up. Fighter has pretty awesome CMB if he wants it.

ciretose wrote:
No magic items means no magic weapons/armor. The monk starts off with a +5 to armor, before adding wisdom. With even a 16 wisdom they have the same as full plate.

The fighter just has full plate, full dex bonus to it as well, and DR 5/- and if he has gone sword & board, shield bonus.

ciretose wrote:
Perfect self is DR/10 Chaotic. And without cloaks, Fighters +12 fort isn't that great against quivering palm, which could end the whole thing instantly.

Greater Penetrating Strike. Add Con bonus to Fort save, Great Fortitude and Improved Great Fortitude, and even if the monk gets close enough quivering palm and stunning fist may not work.

ciretose wrote:
It's a cheese scenario, it has no real meaning, but with this scenario, Monk wins.

It's up in the air. But one thing is certain, the monk isn't going to win from damage.


I'd say the Monk would have a chance if the other books were allowed but core only there is no way a Monk can beat the fighter.

The rogue might have chance with USD but the saves are kind of low and 20th level fighter should be able to make them. The highest DC is 23 for 9th level spell on scroll. A 20th level fighter has 17 will save bonus (6 base, 4 stat, 2 feat, and 5 cloak). This could be even higher if the fighter went with more than +1 wisdom bonus with headband +6.

My mistake no magic, no spells then from UMD. That really cripples rogue. The Monk is still toast though.

Liberty's Edge

Nicos wrote:
ciretose wrote:

Not so fast kids.

And without cloaks, Fighters +12 fort isn't that great against quivering palm, which could end the whole thing instantly.
that and stunning fist are the best strategiies for the monk, note taht the fighter fort save will be around +15.

If the monk has a 16 wisdom, the save is 23.

The above monk's ac (before dex) is +9, same as full plate, with the ability to add +4 as a swift action, which considering I have 13 ki points, why wouldn't I burn it. And I'm moving at +60

They have DR/10, do 2d10 damage and can get 8 attacks if they burn a ki, from anywhere if they took the dimension door feats.


ciretose wrote:

Not so fast kids.

20th level monk can spring attack the fighter to death if no magic weapons (base movement is 90 ft) and would catch the first ranged attack.

No magic items means no magic weapons/armor. The monk starts off with a +5 to armor, before adding wisdom. With even a 16 wisdom they have the same as full plate.

Perfect self is DR/10 Chaotic. And without cloaks, Fighters +12 fort isn't that great against quivering palm, which could end the whole thing instantly.

It's a cheese scenario, it has no real meaning, but with this scenario, Monk wins.

Not really. First of all Full Plate is +9 not +8 so no even with a 16 wisdom and his entire monk bonus he hasn't even met basic full plate yet.

2nd of all go ahead put 16 into wisdom thats 10 of your 20 point buy. You've almost bought yourself the AC of full plate with it and you've got a great will save versus a character who requires no will saves. congrats.

3rd fighters with 2 feats can get through 10 points of any damage reduction even unbypassable. your DR/10 is useless.

4th Fighters +12 base isn't that great until you realize he has plenty of feat space for Great Fort to pop it to 14 and then even with a con of 16 you've got a 17 Fort versus his 23 save. It has a 25% chance of success before magic items.

5th What does it matter? yeah you can block the first shot. but with that 16 Wisdom you're gonna max dex after level modifiers at 18, 19 if you go epic fantasy point buy. After leveling you can get a 24. so thats 7 + the 18 he had before for a total AC of 25. Fighter, if he specializes in the bow is going to have +20 (BAB) + 4 (Weapon Training) + 2 (Greater Weapon Focus) +1 (Masterwork Weapon) + 6 (Dex) -6 (Deadly Aim)

So even after apply the full deadly aim negative he's got a +26 to hit. This means the first attack has a 5% chance of failure (which you can then deflect), the 2nd attack has a 15% chance, 3rd 40% and so on.

6th Furthermore Rapid Shot is going to hit you hard even worse. because it's going to give him a 6th attack for you to try and stop with that one little deflection

7th congrats you've built your AC. What now? you can take weapon finesse for your to hit but with armor you're going to be badly off anyways (5/- DR) . you've got no method of reducing damage reduction, no bonus damage on your attacks and with that +7 even on epic fantasy point buy your power attack will get you + 14 damage per hit but you will only have a + 19 to hit on your flurry, while your normal will be lower. With weapon focus you'll have +20. so congrats after your first two attacks which will be severely lessened in damage you're gonna have a low chance to hit.

He'll end up with Mithral Full plate that he can still move full speed in and still get a +7 to his AC resulting in an AC of 26 compared to your 25.


ciretose wrote:
Ready an action to do what? Bow without magic will do what against 10/DR that can self heal? Get in trouble, I turn ethereal or dimension door away and heal.

Greater Penetrating Strike removes the DR. You can try to run away, but you are going to have to burn a heck of a lot of ki between empty body and trying to heal yourself back up. With only 10-13 in the pool, you aren't going to be able to pull this over and over.

ciretose wrote:
Even if the monk only has a 13 wisdom, quivering palm is going to be a DC 23 save against a +12 bonus. If you cheese wisdom, it is even worse (and your AC is even higher...) and since I can burn ki, if it doesn't work my AC is going to be another +4 higher, in addition to the natural +5, in addition to the bonus from Wisdom.

A Monk with 13 Wisdom would have a DC of 21, not 23. You also only get one shot at it a day, and if the attack misses it is gone. Since the Fighter will only be needing Fortitude saves, it is almost a given he would have taken Improved Great Fortitude. Even with a 14 Con, you are looking at around a 4% chance of landing the Palm (minus chance of missing the strike entirely). Not exactly something to bank on.

ciretose wrote:
And this isn't even digging into Quiggong stuff.

OP specified Core only.

ciretose wrote:
Like I said, this scenario means nothing, but the monk wins if no magic items are involved.

The Monk is only going to win with a lucky Quivering Palm or Stunning Fist. The Fighter just needs a Full Attack or two to kill the monk. I know who my money is on.


The real problem that the monk is going to run into is the Fighter's critical feats.

Sure, the fighter has a chance of failing a save against the monks Quivering Palm or Stunning Fist, but if the fighter has Stunning Critical and even *threatens* a crit, the monk will be staggered for 1d4 rounds. Remember, Fighters auto confirm crits with one weapon at level 20. The monk will be stunned for 1d4 rounds if he fails the DC 30 fort save....

Liberty's Edge

Let's say I just build a pure damage monk, max out strength and ignore everything else.

I can dimension door in to a full attack, the first of which will be a quivering palm and could end it right there. The fighte would be flat-footed, so max AC is going to be 19 (full plate, no magic). I can either throw another attack on top for 8 attacks at 2d10 + strength, or I can burn a ki point for a +4 to AC, on top of the +5 natural, before adding wisdom and Dex.

And that is just one way to do it. If you don't kill me on the counter, I dimension door away, burn ki to heal, and come back and do it again, because you can't heal and I can.

This isn't the best way to do it, again not even going to quingong stuff which would make it completely lopsided, but with magic out of the picture the fighter has more trouble than the monk.

When you take magic out of the equation, the monk is at a huge advantage at level 20.


ciretose wrote:
I can dimension door in to a full attack

Pretty tough when Abundant Step is a move action. Also, as it copies dimension door, you still wouldn't be allowed to do anything after you used it.

ciretose wrote:
And that is just one way to do it. If you don't kill me on the counter, I dimension door away, burn ki to heal, and come back and do it again, because you can't heal and I can.

Abundant Step+Extra Attack+Abundant Step+Wholeness of Body+Abundant Step=9 ki. Even if it worked, you could do this once.

ciretose wrote:
This isn't the best way to do it, again not even going to quingong stuff which would make it completely lopsided.

Core. Only.


The fighter would be flat-footed why? he could have a Greater Vital Strike waiting for you on a readied action. A crit, and you are staggered. He saves vs your quivering palm, and you have a big problem of a full-attacking fighter more likely to critical than not.

Abundant Step and Wholeness of Body will burn through your ki like crazy, you won't manage to heal much. This is core only, so abundant step ends your turn anyway.

You appear next to the fighter. He full attacks you. He will likely get a crit in there. Now you are staggered. All you can do is abundant step out, or try quivering palm and if it fails, die.


Even if the Dimension Dervish feats were allowed in this situation, it requires a swift action to activate... so no +4 to AC and no extra attack.


ciretose wrote:

Not so fast kids.

20th level monk can spring attack the fighter to death if no magic weapons (base movement is 90 ft) and would catch the first ranged attack.

No magic items means no magic weapons/armor. The monk starts off with a +5 to armor, before adding wisdom. With even a 16 wisdom they have the same as full plate.

Perfect self is DR/10 Chaotic. And without cloaks, Fighters +12 fort isn't that great against quivering palm, which could end the whole thing instantly.

It's a cheese scenario, it has no real meaning, but with this scenario, Monk wins.

The monk's modifier can get up to +6 most likely.

10+10+6=26 DC for Quivering palm.

Fighter get +12 +3(least I would expect for on) +2 great fort= +17.
If he took the other fort feat he can roll twice.

As for spring attack a readied action handles that, and if the monk tries to stand in deliver things will not go well. I would suggest the fighter trip the monk though.

Of course since the GM, according to the OP said this was about damage I am guessing this will be a "stand and deliver" contest.

Liberty's Edge

I think everyone is thinking of a fighter with magic weapons.

Let's DD in, the monk is hitting on anything but a 1 on the first attack, so basically it is if quivering palm works or not. So we have basically a 40% chance of auto death/game over off the jump.

The monk gets either 7 attacks at 2d10 + strength and a +4 to ac, or 8 attacks at full BAB two weapon fighting progression.

The monk can heal 20 points with 2 ki points, and they have at least 10 ki points.

A 20th level fighter with magic weapons kills anything it gets a full attack on. If the fighter can take my 7 or 8 attacks and survive, they have to kill me next round, or else I get way, heal, and come back and do it again.

If I quiggong, I can barkskin up another +5, or scorching ray a bit before I move in, battlemind it up if I really want to be sure I hit, etc...but I don't want to drift to far into Schrodinger's monk.

Off the bat I'm going to hit on anything but a 1 with the quivering palm/stunning fist attack, so it comes down to if you save or not, and if I survive.

If I were doing it, I would cheese up wisdom to make the save higher and make myself harder to hit.

EDIT:

Sorry just realized it was core only.


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I didn't even think of Armor and Weapon Mastery, wow! Yeah, Fighter really owns this. Get that man a Falchion with Improved Crit and Stunning Crit! I am starting to think Fighter can take both monk and rogue at once...


I'm sorry my previous math was wrong. You're spring attacking or dimension Door which is a move action. You cannot flurry. Your BAB is now 3 lower. Your power attack now maxes out at -4/+8

So you will have 15+7+1-4 to hit= 19 for that 1 attack. You get 1 attack at 2d10+8. The fighter has a 26 AC here and 5/- DR which drops your attack to 2d10+3 or 14 damage average, with you having a 30% miss chance on your highest BAB.

His math on the other hand I simply didn't include a section for rapid shot so
20+7+1+4-6-2=+24 for 1d10+12 damage which will average out to 17.5.

Attack looks like +24/24/19/14/9/4. So congrats versus his 25 AC, he deflects your first attack, 2nd one is don't roll a 1, 3rd one is a 20% miss and on the 4th attack he finally has a higher miss chance than your one attack

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook Subscriber; Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber
ciretose wrote:
I think everyone is thinking of a fighter with magic weapons.

No, we're thinking of Core only, and the fact that the fighter gets Weapon/Armor Training over the monk.

Liberty's Edge

TriOmegaZero wrote:
ciretose wrote:
I think everyone is thinking of a fighter with magic weapons.
No, we're thinking of Core only, and the fact that the fighter gets Weapon/Armor Training over the monk.

Armor training adds dex bonus, but without magic items, how much dex is the fighter adding?

Weapon training is nice, but it is only a +4 damage/hit.

Quivering palm is going to pretty much auto hit (anything but a 1) and can be easily made better than 50/50. If not quivering palm, at 20th I can try to paralysis for 1d6 rounds next time.

Against the ranged fighter I can DD toe to toe, since you are going to need to give up something to get your Dex up, and I think I can survive a round, retreat to heal, then come back and do it again.

Against the melee, I'll spring attack stun/quivering to death, adding in all of the stun effects if I don't kill you outright on the first attack.

If you win initiative and ready to trip me, I'm just going to wait for you to come to me or move in a classic mexican standoff, preferable behind cover so can't charge me, but I can spring attack you.

Once I've stunned enough effects t


ciretose wrote:
TriOmegaZero wrote:
ciretose wrote:
I think everyone is thinking of a fighter with magic weapons.
No, we're thinking of Core only, and the fact that the fighter gets Weapon/Armor Training over the monk.

Armor training adds dex bonus, but without magic items, how much dex is the fighter adding?

Weapon training is nice, but it is only a +4 damage/hit.

Quivering palm is going to pretty much auto hit (anything but a 1) and can be easily made better than 50/50. If not quivering palm, at 20th I can try to paralysis for 1d6 rounds next time.

Against the ranged fighter I can DD toe to toe, since you are going to need to give up something to get your Dex up, and I think I can survive a round, retreat to heal, then come back and do it again.

Against the melee, I'll spring attack stun/quivering to death, adding in all of the stun effects if I don't kill you outright on the first attack.

If you win initiative and ready to trip me, I'm just going to wait for you to come to me or move in a classic mexican standoff, preferable behind cover so can't charge me, but I can spring attack you.

Once I've stunned enough effects t

A fighter will need

Power Attack
Deadly Aim
Weapon Focus x2
Greater Weapon Focus x2
Weapon Specialization x2
Greater Weapon Specialization x2
Weapon Finesse
Point Blank Shot
Rapid Shot
Great Fort
Improved Great Fort
Improved Unarmed Strike
Penetrating Strike
Greater Penetrating Strike

20 Point Buy

10 Str
20 Dex (+2 Racial Modifier)
13 Con
10 int
10 Wis
10 Cha

5 Level increases

10 Str
24 Dex
14 Con
10 int
10 Wis
10 Cha

You just got your monk up to 27 Save. You may use it 1/day. His fort will be 16 with 2 saves

You have a 30.25% chance of success. That's maxing your wisdom to the exclusion of all else, not including trait or racial modifiers for the fighter.

On the other hand his armor is mithral FullPlate
so +1 dex +2 (mithral) +4 armor training = +7 Dex Bonus +9 Base Bonus

He has a 26 Armor class. With a non Flurry (you can't make with spring attack) you get +15 +1 weapon focus. You put everything into wisdom so you'll get maybe +3 with your attack. You have +19 so you have a 30% miss chance on your highest BAB.

With his bow he gets +20 + 7 + 4 + 2 + 1 (masterwork weapon) - 6 (Deadly Aim) -2 (Rapid Shot) for a total of +26 to hit

His Attacks will do 1d10 + 20 at +26/26/21/16/11/6 versus your 25 AC. You deflect the first. The 4th attack finally has a greater miss chance than you.


Dimension Door doesn't let you perform an attack after using it. Dimension Door


If the fighter takes the critical line of feats you are effectively locked down once a crit lands.

Quote:

Stunning Critical (Combat, Critical)

Your critical hits cause opponents to become stunned.

Prerequisites: Critical Focus, Staggering Critical, base attack bonus +17.

Benefit: Whenever you score a critical hit, your opponent becomes stunned for 1d4 rounds. A successful Fortitude save reduces this to staggered for 1d4 rounds. The DC of this Fortitude save is equal to 10 + your base attack bonus. The effects of this feat do not stack. Additional hits instead add to the duration.

Special: You can only apply the effects of one critical feat to a given critical hit unless you possess Critical Mastery.

As I said before even with a ranged fighter dex does not have to be that high. Get rapid shot, and deadly aim(bypass DR somewhat). No need to get manyshot.

The monk will most likely survive the barrage of arrows, and close with the fighter.

To get things back on track though the GM is suggesting a damage dealing contest, not a "who will win if everyone plays smart" contest.


ciretose wrote:

Weapon training is nice, but it is only a +4 damage/hit.

And +4 to hit. Probably the more important bit.

ciretose wrote:
Quivering palm is going to pretty much auto hit (anything but a 1) and can be easily made better than 50/50. If not quivering palm, at 20th I can try to paralysis for 1d6 rounds next time.

Your maximum possible Wisdom will be 25. That means a DC of 27. A Fighter with 14 Con and Improved Greater Fortitude is going to have a +16, meaning your best possible scenario is a 47.5% chance of landing it. 23.75% if he uses IGF.

ciretose wrote:

Against the ranged fighter I can DD toe to toe, since you are going to need to give up something to get your Dex up, and I think I can survive a round, retreat to heal, then come back and do it again.

Against the melee, I'll spring attack stun/quivering to death, adding in all of the stun effects if I don't kill you outright on the first attack.

We have already determined your retreating strategy doesn't work. It burns all your ki, and lets the Fighter get a Full Attack on you while you are running or Abundant Stepping in. You can try to use Spring Attack, but will still be facing readied actions. Worse, if you don't have total cover to hide behind.

You can try to stun all you want, but that is hardly an advantage over the Fighter. While you have a 50/50 shot (at the absolute maximum) of getting one of your abilities to work, all the Fighter needs is a single threatened critical. Then you get to save vs DC30 against Stunning, and even if you succeed you are staggered for 1d4 rounds. Plus whatever other critical effect the Fighter chooses from Critical Mastery.

ciretose wrote:
If you win initiative and ready to trip me, I'm just going to wait for you to come to me or move in a classic mexican standoff, preferable behind cover so can't charge me, but I can spring attack you.

If the Fighter wins initiative you are going to take a ranged full attack. Thanks to buckets of feats and weapon trainings, even a melee Fighter is pretty deadly with a bow. If the Fighter is ranged oriented, you may well be dead.


ciretose wrote:
I think everyone is thinking of a fighter with magic weapons.

Nope. Just Weapon Focus, Greater Weapon Focus, Weapons Specialisation, Greater Weapons Specialisation, Weapon Training. That's +6 to hit and +8 to damage there and then. With a 24 strength that's +35 to hit with a masterwork weapon and +16 damage, +20 with a two-handed weapon. Power-attacking that's +29 to hit and either +28 damage or +38 damage two handed.

Now let's say he's got a falchion and Improved Critical, his attacks vs the monk's 25 AC are +29/+24/+19/+14. That's 95%/95%/75%/50% or 315% x 43 (average 2d4+38) damage. Odds of a critical are 30% (15-20 threat range) per hit with no confirm check required (capstone ability) for x3 damage (capstone ability) which is an additional 120% hits x 2, so our total average damage for a full attack on the monk is 435% x 43 = 187.05 mean DPR on a full attack.

Is a level 20 monk going to have that many hit points with no magic boosters?

ciretose wrote:
Let's DD in,

...and that ends your turn. This is core, remember? The fighter than full attacks you. Dead Monk.

ciretose wrote:
the monk is hitting on anything but a 1 on the first attack, so basically it is if quivering palm works or not. So we have basically a 40% chance of auto death/game over off the jump.

I don't make it that. You have DC23 on the attack, because there are no magic boosters and you put all your incremental boosters into strength or dex just so you could score the hit in the first place.

The fighter has +12 basic on his Fort save, plus his Con, plus Greater Fortitude and Improved GF. Now we boosted strength up a lot, so Con is secondary so assume a 14 Con, for +16 in total with a re-roll. He succeeds on a 7+, a 70% success rate. With the re-roll, your chance of success is less than 10%.

ciretose wrote:
The monk gets either 7 attacks at 2d10 + strength and a +4 to ac, or 8 attacks at full BAB two weapon fighting progression.

Assuming he doesn't dimension door in. That takes the fighter's total odds down to 355% x 43 = 152.65 DPR. Probably more hit points than the monk has.

On the flip side, the fighter has 20d10+60 hit points with favoured class, so standing up to the monk's attack isn't hard. Assuming your monk has an 18 strength to begin with, a 23 after bonuses gives him +6 to hit and damage. With Weapon Specialisation his highest bonus is +25, and the fighter's AC is probably only around 20 (plate armour + dodge).

So monk hits for +25/+25/+20/+20/+15/+15/+10 (you used ki to boost AC, remember), or with Power Attack +20/+20/+15/+15/+10/+10/+5 for +10 damage per hit. That's 95%/95%/75%/75%/50%/50%/25% or 465%, with 10% added for critical hits = 511.5% of average damage, which is 2d10+6+10 = 27 damage. That's 138.105 DPR.

Now let's look at average HP, say max at 1st level +half max +1 per level. Assume favoured class bonus is all in HP:
Fighter (14 Con remember) = 20d10+60 = 10+(19x6)+60 = 184
Monk (everything in Strength and Wis) = 8+(19x5)+20 = 123

Result, the monk pops up, gets surprise maybe, full attacks, and uses quivering palm. Then there is a 90% chance that the fighter kills him.

I will concede, non-core adds some fun to the monk, but it adds some to the fighter too.


wraithstrike wrote:
To get things back on track though the GM is suggesting a damage dealing contest, not a "who will win if everyone plays smart" contest.

Damage dealing is easy though. Max monk strength a +7 take power attack use it or don't we can calculate later.

Monk will be 18+7+1(weapon focus)-4 (Power Attack)= 22 He gets 7 Attacks

so he can deal

22/22/17/17/12/12/7 at 2d10+15 or 26
26/26/21/21/17/17/12 at 2d10+7 or 18
Average AC for something CR appropriate is 37. (CR 20, 10 random monsters averaged)

Averaging it out with power attack you will deal 22.1 damage (you have a 25% hit chance on the first and 2nd attack and then 5% for every one after.This means if you look at each one individually (because they are individual rolls independent) you shouldn't land an average of even one attack per round.

Without Power Attack you will deal 29.7 damage average.

A fighter Maxing strength will have +7

His to hit will be +20+4+2+7-6(Power Attack) for +27 after Power Attack or +33 without it.

Damage
2d6+36 (10 STR + 18 Power Attack + 4 Greater weapon Special +4 Weapon Training)

so it's
27/22/17/12/7 for 2d6+36 or 43
33/28/23/18/13 for 2d6+18 or 25

Power Attack 43 damage/average.
w/o Power Attack 48.75

I intentionally left crit out of here because monks need to confirm their crits and will have lower crit values. Fighters auto crit and have their crit multiplier increase by 1. This will shift the imbalance more in favor of the fighter.

Please note I did these numbers for an average monster of equivalent cr which generally assumes you have magic items


Well but the Monks Stunning Fist is still the most dangerous weapon in this challenge. At level 20 he can paralyze his opponent for 1d6+1rounds
and then just coup the grace him to death.With a starting level of 20 and no need to survive the levels before you might as well max Wisdom to 18 and stuff your level advancements in there too so thats DC25 vs what maybe +15/16/17 on the fighters fort save.With 90ft movement spring attack,dodge/mobility,lightning Stance,deflect arrows and 20 stunning fist plus a quivering palm he could definately win this.

But pure DPR? Thats clearly the fighter.


BTW you cannot ready a Full attack action as its a Full round action so the strike and retreat strategy does in fact work.


Sleet Storm wrote:

Well but the Monks Stunning Fist is still the most dangerous weapon in this challenge. At level 20 he can paralyze his opponent for 1d6+1rounds

and then just coup the grace him to death.With a starting level of 20 and no need to survive the levels before you might as well max Wisdom to 18 and stuff your level advancements in there too so thats DC25 vs what maybe +15/16/17 on the fighters fort save.With 90ft movement spring attack,dodge/mobility,lightning Stance,deflect arrows and 20 stunning fist plus a quivering palm he could definately win this.

But pure DPR? Thats clearly the fighter.

He wouldn't win because those are fort saves. The fighter will get two saves and even with a con of 14 would have a + 16 without magical items, traits, or racial bonuses. Thats a 20.25% chance of success. You get the quivering palm 1/day. the stunning fist I will grant you happens more often. However you do not get a coup de grace, stunning someone does not make them helpless. They drop everything and get a -2 to Ac and thats it.

Furthermore stacking wisdom like that makes your damage insignificant especially considering he has damage reduction. So unless you kill him outright with quivering palm with that build he swats you and says "shoo fly don't bother me"


Stunning Fist advances with a Monks Level.
At 16th level you get to Paralyze for 1d6+1 rounds and that makes you helpless and ready for a coup de grace. And with 20 tries even a 20.25% chance will realize sooner or later.


Sleet Storm wrote:

Stunning Fist advances with a Monks Level.

At 16th level you get to Paralyze for 1d6+1 rounds and that makes you helpless and ready for a coup de grace. And with 20 tries even a 20.25% chance will realize sooner or later.

At best you're gambling the Fighter's 30% chance to crit (falchion) versus the Monk's 20+% to paralyze. If/when the Fighter crits, the Monk dies (stunning critical).


Sleet Storm wrote:
Well but the Monks Stunning Fist is still the most dangerous weapon in this challenge. At level 20 he can paralyze his opponent for 1d6+1rounds

In this example, would you bet your life on a <10% chance of success?


Sleet Storm wrote:
BTW you cannot ready a Full attack action as its a Full round action so the strike and retreat strategy does in fact work.

Nobody said anything about readying full attacks. You only use Ready Action in the absolute worst case scenario, which was the Monk Spring Attacking from behind total cover. Less than total cover or Abundant Stepping in, and the Monk faces full attacks (whether melee or ranged). Ciretose wanted to Abundant Step in and out of the fight while using Wholeness of Body to heal. Besides the fact you can't Abundant Step in and attack, the idea burned through the Monks entire ki pool in one go around. It isn't an effective strategy.

Sleet Storm wrote:
At 16th level you get to Paralyze for 1d6+1 rounds and that makes you helpless and ready for a coup de grace. And with 20 tries even a 20.25% chance will realize sooner or later.

20 tries is irrelevant. The fight simply is not going to last that long. You would need to paralyze the Fighter before he threatened even a single critical on you, let alone got a full attack. With one Stunning Fist a round and the Fighter's chance to save, your chances of that aren't particularly good.


Sleet Storm wrote:

Stunning Fist advances with a Monks Level.

At 16th level you get to Paralyze for 1d6+1 rounds and that makes you helpless and ready for a coup de grace. And with 20 tries even a 20.25% chance will realize sooner or later.

First of all at 20th level he can paralyze. 2nd of all its a 20.25% chance if you hit. We've already proven that we can go dex fighter and have higher damage, and AC and significant saves anyways. Not to mention the damage resistance that fighters can bypass and monks can't. Heck if we wanted we could pop the saves by up to 4 more (race, trait, Drunken Brawler) you'd end up with a total of 4% chance of success meaning even 20 tries shouldn't net you even 1 success.

Scarab Sages

Yeah, the fighter will win this. It doesn't matter what tricks are available. He's packing DR/-, the highest AC of the group, an attack bonus that basically guarantees all his attacks will hit vs. unmagically armored opponents, and the crit feats and crit range to ensure that he gets to inflict plenty of match-winning status effects.

The monk has a few cool things he can do, as does the rogue. But that's just it... they're a few cool things, and their damage can't even come CLOSE.

The monk probably stands the best chance with all his CC abilities. That rogue is just SCREWED.


The monk gets a save versus stunning critical too, and he can also have.Improved Great Fortitude so even with the higher DC on stunning Critical the Fighters Chance is significantly lower as he has to land a crit first.


Sleet Storm wrote:
The monk gets a save versus stunning critical too, and he can also have.Improved Great Fortitude so even with the higher DC on stunning Critical the Fighters Chance is significantly lower as he has to land a crit first.

Weapon Mastery automatically confirms critical threats. The DC is 30, and your Monk is going to be lucky to afford the 14 Con of a Fighter with his maximized Wisdom and, presumably, a few points of Strength so he can actually hit. Even if he had the same +16, he only has a 35% chance of saving. Then he gets to save again, or be blind. And even if he makes both, he is automatically staggered and dazzled. This, all if the Monk even survives a (minimally) triple damage critical.

The monk just isn't winning this one.


Sleet Storm wrote:
The monk gets a save versus stunning critical too, and he can also have.Improved Great Fortitude so even with the higher DC on stunning Critical the Fighters Chance is significantly lower as he has to land a crit first.

Yes but all critical effects apply the effect or a lesser version of the effect even if you save. The only difference usually is the duration. For stunning you're staggered for several rounds.

2nd of all yes he can take improved great fort but guess what? it's gonna be 20% of his feats (he only gets 10) as opposed to 10% of the fighters and as we just went over even if he does save it doesn't negate the effect just lessens it


I concede.

It still could work though:)


Sleet Storm wrote:
The monk gets a save versus stunning critical too, and he can also have.Improved Great Fortitude so even with the higher DC on stunning Critical the Fighters Chance is significantly lower as he has to land a crit first.

Crit range of 15-20, four attacks a round = 120% chance of a critical that is automatically confirmed - ironically the fighter has a better chance of landing a critical than the monk has of landing the quivering palm blow (95%). The monk can take the feats, but he's got lower con and he's got less feats to burn, and it really doesn't matter because the fighter is dishing out enough damage in a round to kill the monk outright anyway.

Edit: I forgot the DR for the fighter in the example above, the monk actually only does 112.53 DPR to the fighter.


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Oddly enough, I'm kinda laughing at this because its the GM's choice to limit it to core materials and to say no magic items that really killed the monk end game in my opinion :P With magic items the monk's AC would have gone through the roof and he could have simply scaled his damage off of his Dexterity and been done with that or gone the dragon style feats and done damage like a 2 handed weapon wielder


I just wanted to say thanks to everybody for the thoughtful contributions. It looks like my original thought about the fighter is justified, but a monk could definitely pull out some tricks. It seems like everyone agrees rogues would be toast though.

So, what if we allowed magic items but kept it core only, thoughts about who would do better?

Scarab Sages

Fighter still wins. The monk COULD still throw his AC through the ceiling, but he'd have to sacrifice a lot of damage/accuracy to do it, which the fighter could easily reach with magic.

Fact is, in a straight fight, the Fighter will win.

Liberty's Edge

Actually I said you could abundant step in to full attack, or just use your +60 movement to spring attack.

If any of the spring attacks work for either quivering palm or paralysis, fight over.

The monk can try that up to 20 times.

Also the monk gets more than 10 feats. Bonus feat at 1st, 2nd, 6th, 10th, 14th, and 18th for a total of 16 (17 if human)


Well a Ninja at 20th is kinda unbeatable.(and a Ninja is technically a rouge so...)


ashern wrote:

I just wanted to say thanks to everybody for the thoughtful contributions. It looks like my original thought about the fighter is justified, but a monk could definitely pull out some tricks. It seems like everyone agrees rogues would be toast though.

So, what if we allowed magic items but kept it core only, thoughts about who would do better?

Monk was crap in core in general. If you want a monk to work for just about anything you're going to need at least the apg and hopefully ultimate combat.

With core you can get an amulet of mighty Fists (agile) (5000 gold) Stack both your dex and wis. You get high to hit, high saves, moderate damage, high AC. Toss on a ring of natural armor and bracers of armor and you'll be hard for even the fighter to hit.

Liberty's Edge

With magic it changes a lot and would depend a lot on match ups and environment.

I don't see a discussion of it not involving both sides being Schrodinger's version of the class.


ciretose wrote:

Actually I said you could abundant step in to full attack, or just use your +60 movement to spring attack.

If any of the spring attacks work for either quivering palm or paralysis, fight over.

The monk can try that up to 20 times.

Also the monk gets more than 10 feats. Bonus feat at 1st, 2nd, 6th, 10th, 14th, and 18th for a total of 16 (17 if human)

You cannot abundant step for a full attack you can do it and get a standard action.

Quivering palm may only be used 1/day

We've already covered that a fighter can easily get a fort of +16 without magical items, racial stuff, or traits and you get two saves.

Spring attack won't do jack if he pulls out a bow and fires off 5-6 shots that will easily beat your AC and bypass your DR


ciretose wrote:

With magic it changes a lot and would depend a lot on match ups and environment.

I don't see a discussion of it not involving both sides being Schrodinger's version of the class.

Pretty much this. I think this thread has done a good job of showing that even with no magic this type of high level fight is kind of a gimmick contest. Quivering Palm lands, Fighter dies. Critical lands, Monk dies. Magic will just make this crazier, adding a huge number of extra gimmicks and counter-gimmicks. In the end, you'd probably just have two characters using Use Magic Device to fire 9th level scrolls at each other.

Scrolls that change between every post, of course.


I still think the fighter is going to win. Also your GM said no magic items he didn't say no special materials. Special materials for weapons and armor are listed in the equipment section. That means the Fighter can get adamantine weapons and armor. He going to blast most anything out of the water plus he is going to be a pain to do damage to. I agree two handed weapon is awesome for massive damage but take advantage. Two short swords and two weapon fighting the Fighter with the weapon focus, weapon training, and improved critical range he going to outdamage a monk. He just took away the Monks flurry ability pretty well. Take the fortitude feats and you just got around it. I would recommend taking dwarf as the race so movement isn't hindered by anything. The thing of it is you can build a fighter to be the killer of <insert class here> the thing of it is a fighter is vulnerable to almost everything else. If you put the fighter against all classes at once (except himself) you could design him perfectly to kill certain classes but that leaves him open to the others. That why the fighter gets so many feats it isn't solely to be the class killer it is so that he can diversify and be effective against all not overwhelming to some and overwhelmed by others.

These types of games are designed with group dynamic in mind. Solo fighting so rarely happens in combat it is almost an improbability. And if it does happen that means the party has messed up. And unless your GM is gunning for you, you shouldn't find yourself in such situations often.

Liberty's Edge

Thomas Long 175 wrote:


You cannot abundant step for a full attack you can do it and get a standard action.

Quivering palm may only be used 1/day

We've already covered that a fighter can easily get a fort of +16 without magical items, racial stuff, or traits and you get two saves.

Spring attack won't do jack if he pulls out a bow and fires off 5-6 shots that will easily beat your AC and bypass your DR

Perhaps you are unfamiliar with this feat.. But it is moot since it isn't core.

However what is core is that stunning fist causes paralysis for 1d6+1 rounds at 20th level.


Add insult to injury, have the fighter go HtH against the monk and still win.


ciretose wrote:

Perhaps you are unfamiliar with this feat.. But it is moot since it isn't core.

However what is core is that stunning fist causes paralysis for 1d6+1 rounds at 20th level.

Yes and it was pointed out on page 1 you can't use that feat. furthermore we've pointed out the fighter has a significantly high chance of making not only that save, but saving several times in a row based on how low your odds of success are even if you stack wisdom

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