Fighter vs. Rogue or Monk


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Even with cover whats to stop the fighter from readying to trip/grapple/attack you when you come running up?


For the fighter he has to make sure he can avoid being taken down. If the Monk is a Tetori and the fighter isn't geared to stop it, the fighter is toast. The Tetori is arguably the best 1 on 1 combatant there is when faced with someone their size or smaller.

Of course when faced with the gargantuan dragon, all the monk can do is stay out the way of the fighter.


Do remeber however that if the fighter has a one-handed weapon he can full attack the monk with it even in a grapple if he forgoes trying to escape.


StreamOfTheSky wrote:

I still think in any "normal" fight, monk has no chance. I just wanted to be fair and try to find a way for monk to find victory. That he has to resort to such extreme measures to avoid an actual fight at all costs and turn it into a game of rocket tag -- "will I be able to make the fighter fail 2 or more fort saves before he rolls a nat 15+ to hit me?" -- only shows how weak a class it is for a "melee combatant."

But being elderly, using lots of poisons, and so forth... it's all core.

I completely disagree, with your build, without age (I'd also change some feats, but nothing major), making the fighter go ranged, the fighter loses huge.

What I just realized was when people were posting their fighter builds and they were posting their to hit bonuses like this: +18/+18/+13/+8/+3, I didn't realize the two +18's were Many-shot. The monk deflects both of them at the same time. Even without Venerable and a 26 AC the odds of hitting are 35%/15%/5%. Fighter only hits with 1 arrow ever 3-ish rounds. If the monk uess Ki and jacks his AC to 30 the odds fall to 15%/5%/5%. All the Monk has to do is make the fighter go ranged, spring attack, and it's game over.


Until he drops his bow draws a melee weapon and readies for you to come charging in.


Talonhawke wrote:
Even with cover whats to stop the fighter from readying to trip/grapple/attack you when you come running up?

Who says the monk is going to come running up? He'll just stay ranged until the fighter attacks. The grapple and or trip is a non-issue for the fighter as well. The monk's CMD is around 41, fighter needs something like a 16, and unless he wants a stunning fist AoO, he will also need a 13 INT and to change two feats.

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

The monk can't do any damage to him ranged. SHuriken don't get past the DR 5/-, and the Fighter will just Rapid Shot him dead if he stays at range.

Plus, look at the range of Shuriken. The monk isn't going to HIT the fighter with shuriken if he just stands 40' away (-6 to hit). They have a range increment of 10 FEET. The fighter can hit with no penalties at 90'.

Ranged combat definitely doesn't work for the monk.

==Aelryinth


Ah so the monks plan is to win the fight by not fighting? Very Zen.

Also depending on weapon choice (i haven't read over all the builds) a reach weapon negates any chance of your AoO without a single feat switch.


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Jodokai wrote:
If the age rules were never supposed to come up, why are there rules governing them?

The rules are here to know which one will die of old age while hiding with full cover. And clearly, my elf fighter wins.

Liberty's Edge

Aelryinth wrote:

The monk can't do any damage to him ranged. SHuriken don't get past the DR 5/-, and the Fighter will just Rapid Shot him dead if he stays at range.

Plus, look at the range of Shuriken. The monk isn't going to HIT the fighter with shuriken if he just stands 40' away (-6 to hit). They have a range increment of 10 FEET. The fighter can hit with no penalties at 90'.

Ranged combat definitely doesn't work for the monk.

==Aelryinth

1. Monks are proficient with crossbow, and the presented builds have shot on the run.

2. Is the fighter readying melee or ranged, because they can't do both.


Aelryinth wrote:

The monk can't do any damage to him ranged. SHuriken don't get past the DR 5/-, and the Fighter will just Rapid Shot him dead if he stays at range.

Plus, look at the range of Shuriken. The monk isn't going to HIT the fighter with shuriken if he just stands 40' away (-6 to hit). They have a range increment of 10 FEET. The fighter can hit with no penalties at 90'.

Ranged combat definitely doesn't work for the monk.

==Aelryinth

It really does. Monk Deflects 1 arrow, with his 30 AC (from Ki) the other arrow has a reduced chance to hit, but even if it does, it's what 24-ish points of damage, but more importantly you are not holding an action, so I spring attack a Quivering Palm/Stunning Fist. You have a 50-55% chance of making that save, so two more rounds and you're pretty much sure to fail one of them.


ciretose wrote:
2. Is the fighter readying melee or ranged, because they can't do both.

My elf fighter has total cover and is readying a move to another total cover.

Liberty's Edge

GâtFromKI wrote:
ciretose wrote:
2. Is the fighter readying melee or ranged, because they can't do both.

My elf fighter has total cover and is readying a move to another total cover.

Great. Since the monks movement is literally double the fighters, I'll just wait until you move then stunning fist (which is paralysis at 20th level) if the quivering palm I started with didn't work.

If you are readying a ranged attack, deflect arrows is easy enough.

Liberty's Edge

Talonhawke wrote:
Until he drops his bow draws a melee weapon and readies for you to come charging in.

If only the monk had some counter against a single incoming melee attack...


ciretose wrote:
I'll just wait [...]

My elf fighter waits until you dies from old age. He wins.


GâtFromKI wrote:
ciretose wrote:
I'll just wait [...]

My elf fighter waits until you dies from old age. He wins.

And that's about the only hope he has of winning too.

Liberty's Edge

GâtFromKI wrote:
ciretose wrote:
I'll just wait [...]

My elf fighter waits until you dies from old age. He wins.

Oops, forgot who I was responding to...


StreamOfTheSky wrote:

I still think in any "normal" fight, monk has no chance. I just wanted to be fair and try to find a way for monk to find victory. That he has to resort to such extreme measures to avoid an actual fight at all costs and turn it into a game of rocket tag -- "will I be able to make the fighter fail 2 or more fort saves before he rolls a nat 15+ to hit me?" -- only shows how weak a class it is for a "melee combatant."

But being elderly, using lots of poisons, and so forth... it's all core.

You think that is sadder than having to devote yourself entirely to one combatant to even have a shot of winning? As I've said before, the monk I propose is a perfectly viable character in a campaign, the none of the proposed fighter builds are, and of all the builds, only one has a real chance of winning.


Jodokai wrote:
And that's about the only hope he has of winning too.

If it was his only hope, the monk wouldn't be waiting until something happens.

Anyway, it's a perfectly valid tactic: my elf fighter makes a clever use of his racial abilities.


Let review the situation, the monk have a lot of cover to chose, also the cover is strategicaly located so the monk always have a scape route and the fighter never use the cover and the is no dificult terrain so the monk can just run and run.

so convinient.

Liberty's Edge

Nicos wrote:

Let review the situation, the monk have a lot of cover to chose, also the cover is strategicaly located so the monk always have a scape route and the fighter never use the cover, so convinient.

Actually no. The monk has 90 feet of movement, so they can move pretty much however they need to to use whatever cover is available.

And monk always has two escape routes (Abundant step and going ethereal) in addition to just full retreating.

The argument is that each side has a kill button that will work a certain percentage of the time. The monk can either kill or paralyze, the fighter can get a high crit weapon to be keen and try to crit lock the monk.

This has been explained ad nauseum, so I'm not sure what you aren't following here.


I have never seen so much butthurt in one topic. This is stupid and quite frankly the whole thing is a wash. I really had hoped the community at large was above this...


DeusNocturne wrote:
I really had hoped the community at large was above this...

You can't decently hope I'm above this.

... Well, don't think I can decently be included in "the community" either.


DeusNocturne wrote:
I have never seen so much butthurt in one topic. This is stupid and quite frankly the whole thing is a wash. I really had hoped the community at large was above this...

I actually think the butthurt was pretty one sided.

If you look back over this thread, I didn't have a lot of hope for the monk in the beginning. I thought it would come down to a lucky die roll. I believed all the hype about the monk too, even though I loved them. This thread has taught me a lot, when you're arguing, you really need to stat out the characters. When this thread was pure theory, it seemed pretty hopeless for the Monk. Once the Fighters started posting their builds, I started seeing how much theory there really was behind what people were saying. A fighter can't do all those things at the same time like people were saying they could.

@Nicos - Again the monk can run, jump, teleport and phase though things. A fighter can't. All there needs to be is 1 rock or 1 area of rough terrain, or anything else that stops a fighter's charge. The Monk isn't using cover against the piddly ranged attacks, he's using it to stop the fighter's charge. And even if the Monk flubs his movement once, the fighter has to get a 15 or higher on that one hit. Typically the monk will have to screw that up 4 times before the odds work that out.


Wasn't the fight supposed to be this past weekend?

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

Yeah, what happened?


Yeah, what did happen?


You've all get punk'ed, that's what happened. :P

But seriously, what happened?

RPG Superstar 2008 Top 32

I removed a couple posts. Please act like grown ups.


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ImperatorK wrote:

You've all get punk'ed, that's what happened. :P

But seriously, what happened?

I suppose the rogue killed the monk and the fighter :P


After having read the entire post I must say... fascinating.

The class who wins is the one who has its "fans" arguing the longest. One day there is only one poster left "standing", and his/hers class will be the winner!!! Course there is no one to oppose him/her.

Sczarni

Yeh RasTenira, pretty much.

I can make a Rogue/Fighter/Monk build to defeat the last Rogue/Fighter/Monk listed and then someone else will come along and build one to defeat that.

Ok, so a Fighter has umpteen attacks and what what with a bow.. my rogue moves with 50% concealment and gets sneak attack damage of +10d6 on 4 ranged attacks (after taking a single level Shadowdancer and doing Hide in Plain Sight, or if pure rogue, making a move roll into someplace to hide and then disappearing)... yada yada yada... it never ends...

I don't doubt that a Fighter can out BASH the other two. But can he really outsmart and outfight them? Not if they took a few feats which allow them to move faster, further, etc... then disappear, then use THEIR special abilities (Come on, the Fighter's special abilities are BASHING people, so its only fair).


maouse wrote:
I can make a Rogue/Fighter/Monk build to defeat the last Rogue/Fighter/Monk listed and then someone else will come along and build one to defeat that.

They kind of works, if you remove Rogue (at least in this very, very specific case).

maouse wrote:
Ok, so a Fighter has umpteen attacks and what what with a bow.. my rogue moves with 50% concealment and gets sneak attack damage of +10d6 on 4 ranged attacks (after taking a single level Shadowdancer and doing Hide in Plain Sight, or if pure rogue, making a move roll into someplace to hide and then disappearing)... yada yada yada... it never ends...

I assume the 50% concealment comes from Lightning Stance. Lightning Stance requires you take two move actions or the withdraw action, so you have no actions left to get sneak attack. And as soon as your next turn starts, you lose concealment, causing you to lose Stealth.

Shadowdancer probably wouldn't be allowed because it is a prestige class, not Rogue. Also, even if it did, you would get one attack with Sneak Attack, not four. You can try the "sniping" option, but the chances of winning Perception vs Stealth four times at a -20 penalty is negligible. Also, each attack would deal the equivalent of +35 damage. Good, but likely not enough at level 20.

maouse wrote:
I don't doubt that a Fighter can out BASH the other two. But can he really outsmart and outfight them? Not if they took a few feats which allow them to move faster, further, etc... then disappear, then use THEIR special abilities (Come on, the Fighter's special abilities are BASHING people, so its only fair).

Smart, unfortunately, comes from players. Especially in a theoretical instance like this, nobody is going to say "Well, moving behind alternate cover would be better, but I have 7 INT. So I'm going to try smashing through the wall with my face!" In theoretical arguments, perfect tactics are pretty much assumed.

Outfight means nothing but "make the other guy stop hurting you before you are forced to stop hurting him." Even in this very specific, very weird case, bashing is generally preferable. People have made a fairly good argument for Monks spamming Stunning Fists with Spring Attack to have a shot at winning, but the Rogue just doesn't have the speed for that. You'll get one shot at Master Strike if you are lucky, then get crushed under a pile of attack bonuses and critical feats.

While I agree, in the theoretical, that "X Killer" builds almost inevitably make these sorts of arguments go in circles, the specific circumstances listed are very, very heavily weighted against the Rogue class. Much like a Wizard in an antimagic zone, a Rogue would have a heck of a time winning this fight in any reasonable circumstance.


the tetori monk would beat the fighter. If built properly it would be very hard for the fighter to escape his grapple, and once in the grappled or pinned state, the monk would have a huge advantage over the fighter. He could either break his neck or just hit him with 3 almost guaranteed hits per turn dealing double damage. Tetori monk over any fighter archetype. Rebuttle encouraged.


Gunn wrote:
the tetori monk would beat the fighter. If built properly it would be very hard for the fighter to escape his grapple, and once in the grappled or pinned state, the monk would have a huge advantage over the fighter. He could either break his neck or just hit him with 3 almost guaranteed hits per turn dealing double damage. Tetori monk over any fighter archetype. Rebuttle encouraged.

tetori is not core. if you allow non core stuff for the figther he can easily have 58 in his CMD against grapple without magic items, i woul want to see a monk tetori that beat that.


are you talking about a regular fighter archetype or one specifically build for cmd?


Gunn wrote:
are you talking about a regular fighter archetype or one specifically build for cmd?

Nothing special, just this option

Fighter: Add +1 to the fighter’s CMD when resisting two combat maneuvers of the character’s choice.

I prefer to chose trip and grapple, because weapon trainig adds to disarm and sunder.


break down the 58 for me then. I'm just curious.


Gunn wrote:
break down the 58 for me then. I'm just curious.

10 +20 BAB+ 20 (fighter option)+ 4 str + 4 Dex.

Note that with magic items it would add an extra +6 from belt of dex/str and an extra +5 deflection, add dodge and you obtain 70 in the CMD againts trip and grapple.


oh it's a +1 per level. That is pretty significant, wow. which archetype is that?

Sczarni

Nicos wrote:
Gunn wrote:
break down the 58 for me then. I'm just curious.

10 +20 BAB+ 20 (fighter option)+ 4 str + 4 Dex.

Note that with magic items it would add an extra +6 from belt of dex/str and an extra +5 deflection, add dodge and you obtain 70 in the CMD againts trip and grapple.

...no magic items...


Gunn wrote:

oh it's a +1 per level. That is pretty significant, wow. which archetype is that?

It is a human favored class alternative. http://www.d20pfsrd.com/races/core-races/human


maouse wrote:
Nicos wrote:
Gunn wrote:
break down the 58 for me then. I'm just curious.

10 +20 BAB+ 20 (fighter option)+ 4 str + 4 Dex.

Note that with magic items it would add an extra +6 from belt of dex/str and an extra +5 deflection, add dodge and you obtain 70 in the CMD againts trip and grapple.

...no magic items...

58+ WITHOUT magic items, that is prety high.

Sczarni

maouse wrote:
Nicos wrote:
Gunn wrote:
break down the 58 for me then. I'm just curious.

10 +20 BAB+ 20 (fighter option)+ 4 str + 4 Dex.

Note that with magic items it would add an extra +6 from belt of dex/str and an extra +5 deflection, add dodge and you obtain 70 in the CMD againts trip and grapple.

...no magic items...

Bluff 20 ranks, +3 class skill... Look over there! - if the fighter fails its roll the rogue is now hidden.

Next round he can take a full attack action and unleash all his attacks as sneak attacks... if they all hit, the knight loses 8 str (no save... no fort check, nothing - crippling strike). Not to mention the 40d6 sneak attack bonus...

If he bluffed you once, guess what, he can do it again.

So basically all a rogue needs to do is find a 20th level fighter with a low perception (well lower than his bluff and stealth). OR be invisible. My build beats yours because your fighter can't see...


maouse wrote:

Bluff 20 ranks, +3 class skill... Look over there! - if the fighter fails its roll the rogue is now hidden.

Next round he can take a full attack action and unleash all his attacks as sneak attacks... if they all hit, the knight loses 8 str (no save... no fort check, nothing - crippling strike). Not to mention the 40d6 sneak attack bonus...

If he bluffed you once, guess what, he can do it again.

So basically all a rogue needs to do is find a 20th level fighter with a low perception (well lower than his bluff and stealth). OR be invisible. My build beats yours because your fighter can't see...

Only if the fighter stay in the same place, and only if the fighter is not carryng smokes bombs, and only if the rogue go first, and only if the fighter does not maximize perception,and i suposse there is other options but ido not know.


Still need cover to stay hidden still break stealth on the first attack.

So Nope one sneak attack assuming you can hit the AC.


maouse wrote:


OR be invisible. My build beats yours because your fighter can't see...

Oh common, with magic avaliable there is a lot of scrodinger-like ways to deny that tactics.

Sczarni

Nicos wrote:
maouse wrote:


OR be invisible. My build beats yours because your fighter can't see...
Oh common, with magic avaliable there is a lot of scrodinger-like ways to deny that tactics.

i didn't say he was invisible because of magic... bluff + stealth works fine too. or as i stated, one core level of shadowdancer allows them to stand in the fighter's shadow and be hidden (but not thier own).


maouse wrote:
Nicos wrote:
maouse wrote:


OR be invisible. My build beats yours because your fighter can't see...
Oh common, with magic avaliable there is a lot of scrodinger-like ways to deny that tactics.
i didn't say he was invisible because of magic... bluff + stealth works fine too. or as i stated, one core level of shadowdancer allows them to stand in the fighter's shadow and be hidden (but not thier own).

Oh well, then Smokebomb, if the rogue can not see he can not use his sneak attack.

Sczarni

Talonhawke wrote:

Still need cover to stay hidden still break stealth on the first attack.

So Nope one sneak attack assuming you can hit the AC.

Snipe, as an option means you are going to be rolling 3+stat versus their perception+stat. So in theory, that can work fine if they have a low perception. 9 turns (or less) and he is on the floor with 0 strength.

I am missing the part where you can't attack from stealth as a full attack action if you beat their initiative and they are still flat footed... (ie. you beat their initiative on the suprise round, waited, then did a full attack as they are flat footed still waiting to act). Nobody says you HAVE to attack during a suprise round and take away their flatfootedness with a lone attack.

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