So my buddy believes he can enchant darkwood armor as wild without making it +1 first. I'm telling him he's wrong, but he's saying he has sources that contradict me.
He's saying teh bolded part means he can bypass the +1 and simply put wild on it for 9,000gp + the cost of darkwood.
A suit of armor with a special ability must also have at least a +1 enhancement bonus
I showed him this and he simply won't listen to me. I'm the GM of the game he's going to do this for (next semester), and if he doesn't listen, what should I do? Simply disallow the character?
magic is not the same as +1
the rules are excruciatingly specific.
Nowhere is listed an exception to that rule, he must point out the exact words that say "you may bypass the rule"
Or you could besiege him with disenchanters until he relents. (Not recomended)
You may need to pull rule zero and just say "I am altering the rules, pray i do not alter them further."
In general, magic armor protects the wearer to a greater extent than non-magical armor. Magic armor bonuses are enhancement bonuses, never rise above +5, and stack with regular armor bonuses (and with shield and magic shield enhancement bonuses). All magic armor is also masterwork armor, reducing armor check penalties by 1.
In addition to an enhancement bonus, armor may have special abilities. Special abilities usually count as additional bonuses for determining the market value of an item, but do not improve AC. A suit of armor cannot have an effective bonus (enhancement bonus plus special ability bonus equivalents, including those from character abilities and spells) higher than +10. A suit of armor with a special ability must also have at least a +1 enhancement bonus.
"Magic" or not it can't have any special ability until it has a +1 enhancement bonus on it. It can glow in the dark and cause your poo to turn to gold but if it doesn't have a +1 enhancement bonus it can't have a special property from the armor chart on it (such as wild).
The key phrase to pull out of the description of the special material in this case is "... is considered a masterwork item" - if it were considered magical or already enchanted, it would say so.
Disallowing the entire character is a bit extreme. It's not the concept that's broken, as you haven't provided it, but, rather, the item he wants to make. Simply disallow that.
What is the "wild" enhancement? I can't find it on the PFSRD.
|
Yep, that's pretty clear text. A shield must have an enhancement bonus before any special properties can be added to it.
"Wild" is an enhancement from 3.5 that allowed you to retain the item's bonuses while that piece of gear was melded into your shapeshifted form. I don't recall seeing it reprinted in Pathfinder content yet.
edit:
Wild: The wearer of a suit of armor or a shield with this ability preserves his armor bonus (and any enhancement bonus) while in a wild shape. Armor and shields with this ability usually appear to be covered in leaf patterns. While the wearer is in a wild shape, the armor cannot be seen.
Moderate transmutation; CL 9th; Craft Magic Arms and Armor, baleful polymorph; Price +3 bonus.
There we go.
Agreed. Your friend is wrong. Just because something is magic doesn't mean you can enchant it before you add a +1 enhancement bonus first.
Wild is in the core rulebook on page 464.
A suit of armor with a special ability must also have at least a +1 enhancement bonus.
Nothing in there about it needing to be magic, it must have a +1 enhancement bonus in order to have a special property. Wild is a special property.
- Gauss
I'm the GM of the game he's going to do this for (next semester), and if he doesn't listen, what should I do?
Simply disallow the player. You don't have to waste your time arguing with someone over the rules when you run a game. If he doesn't understand he has to accept and abide by your rulings, just don't let him play.
"Not Listening" isn't really an option.
I mean, as DM you have really done your part. You listened to his argument, you researched it, got advice from others, have determined the correct course of action.
His choices now really are:
1) Accept it.
2) find a new DM.
3) Try to convince you to house rule it.
but just "not listening". I assume you mean he's going to "do it anwyay" even after you said he couldn't. That wouldn't fly.. not at all.
-S
Thanks, guys.
I'm really the only DM up here. I showed him the magic item rules sections above before posting this. I hate having to pull Rule 0 as his character isn't broken, really. It's going to be level 7 and he wants a wild Darkwood armor/shield. He thinks it will only cost him 9k each (but it's really 16k each), and I don't want to simply disallow his character because I've never done it before, but if he doesn't listen, I don't know what to do. I've never had a situation like this come up before because usually it's worked out by both the player and I looking at the rules and coming to a decision but he's adamant that he's right. Have you guys ever had to simply disallow a character because of something like this?
Don't disallow the character, disallow the items. If he won't listen and keeps argueing, show him the door. He agreed to play Pathfinder with you as DM and so he also agreed to play by the rules. The rules disallow what he intends to do. Period.
There is nothing to argue.
OT: Sometimes I really hate the sense of entitlement modern RPG Players think they have the right to. Why can'T they just trust the DM to know what he is doing. This kind of behavior leads nowhere but to a futile arms race which will suck out the fun for everyone involved...
|
Don't disallow the character, just charge him the correct amount for the item. You're the DM. He has to buy the item (or the materials if he's making it himself) from an NPC, which you, as DM will be playing. Have the NPC charge the 16k. End of story. If he does anything but accept your ruling gracefully, you can tell him that's the way it is, and if he doesn't like it, he doesn't have to play in your game. It's really up to him at that point, but you should hold firm. Don't let your players bully you.
I don't want to sound like a jerk but it really sounds like you need to grow a backbone, Borthos. Man up and tell him that you expect him to play by the same rules everyone else does: the ones that are printed in the rulebook. If he doesn't want to do that then he can find another game that finds his cheating acceptable. Being that doing so isn't an option for him it will basically be the equivalent to "play by the rules or not at all".
Why you need to come to a message board to get the courage simply to tell a player, "No. I am not letting you cheat." is beyond me. Just do it. Unless you want to have cheaters in your game. I guess thats up to you too.
|
Alternatively, point him to this thread and let him see what people think of his interpretation of the rules. Just the two first answers should be enough, and he'll know what may await him if he keeps on arguing on his wrong stance with any other DM out there.
The problem here isn't the player trying to cheat, it's him miunderstanding the rules and believing you are forbidding him to use a legal system to make the character work.
Thanks, guys.
I'm really the only DM up here. I showed him the magic item rules sections above before posting this. I hate having to pull Rule 0 as his character isn't broken, really. It's going to be level 7 and he wants a wild Darkwood armor/shield. He thinks it will only cost him 9k each (but it's really 16k each), and I don't want to simply disallow his character because I've never done it before, but if he doesn't listen, I don't know what to do. I've never had a situation like this come up before because usually it's worked out by both the player and I looking at the rules and coming to a decision but he's adamant that he's right. Have you guys ever had to simply disallow a character because of something like this?
You are not pulling rule 0. you are going by the rules as written. Tell him bluntly that he is wrong, he can have the 'wild' property when his armour is enchanted to +1 enhancement bonus and not before.
End of discussion.
If he tries to ignore you then he is cheating. That's his problem, and usually leads to being excluded from the group.
Thanks, guys.
I'm really the only DM up here. I showed him the magic item rules sections above before posting this. I hate having to pull Rule 0 as his character isn't broken, really. It's going to be level 7 and he wants a wild Darkwood armor/shield. He thinks it will only cost him 9k each (but it's really 16k each), and I don't want to simply disallow his character because I've never done it before, but if he doesn't listen, I don't know what to do. I've never had a situation like this come up before because usually it's worked out by both the player and I looking at the rules and coming to a decision but he's adamant that he's right. Have you guys ever had to simply disallow a character because of something like this?
Heck, if you even allow Wild at all in a Pathfinder game, you're being nice since it's not part of the rules. You could simply chop him off at the knees and inform him that Wild isn't part of the rules, so the argument is moot. The allowed armor special abilities in Pathfinder can be found at http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/magic-armor and Wild isn't there.
He's arguing against the rules as written on a silly technicality. If he persists after explaining, I'd probably give it to him cut and dry. If he continues, then he's not playing. You probably don't need the headache of that sort of player.
Heck, if you even allow Wild at all in a Pathfinder game, you're being nice since it's not part of the rules.
Gauss mentioned it earlier, but the Wild Armor Special Ability is part of the Core Rulebook.
Heck, if you even allow Wild at all in a Pathfinder game, you're being nice since it's not part of the rules.Gauss mentioned it earlier, but the Wild Armor Special Ability is part of the Core Rulebook.
Oops, my bad ,it is in there. Disregard my rambling about that then.
If you're worried about the high cost of wild armor, just have your friend pick a combat form that they stick with and get barding for that form.
Okay, so what if he just casts Ironwood on it first?
Ironwood is a magical substance created by druids from normal wood. While remaining natural wood in almost every way, ironwood is as strong, heavy, and resistant to fire as steel. Spells that affect metal or iron do not function on ironwood. Spells that affect wood do affect ironwood, although ironwood does not burn. Using this spell with wood shape or a wood-related Craft check, you can fashion wooden items that function as steel items. Thus, wooden plate armor and wooden swords can be created that are as durable as their normal steel counterparts. These items are freely usable by druids.
Further, if you make only half as much ironwood as the spell would normally allow, any weapon, shield, or suit of armor so created is treated as a magic item with a +1 enhancement bonus.
Does that work?
And what happens to the Wild enhancement when the duration of the Ironwood spell wears off? Does it go into suspended animation until the next time the druid Ironwoods it again?
That might be a way for your Druid to get what he's looking for while staying within the boundaries of the rules.
|
I showed him this and he simply won't listen to me. I'm the GM of the game he's going to do this for (next semester), and if he doesn't listen, what should I do? Simply disallow the character?
You got the answers on the rule portion.
Regarding what to do as GM: There is a tendency for people to sometimes go immediately to "find a new GM/find a new player" advice on the forums. Maybe this is something that some see happen as a regular matter of course, but my experience is that we tend to play with friends and/or want to keep relationships going through successful conflict resolution rather than ending them.
|
|
In our game, the barbarian got an old PrC to shapechange into a bear.
Since the DM rewards roleplay and good behavior, and said player has always been a lot of fun to play with without ever being a dick, he's been allowed to get a +1 Wild armor when reaching level 7 - this, despite the rules saying that no character should have more than 50% of his money into a single item. It did well for the character's concept, and the player was really happy with it.
I would suggest you to do the same for your player, allowing him to pay the price of a +4 armor for his Wild armor at level 7. He'll be left with around 6500 GP to spend on anything else.
And if he still has to ask : NO, the rules are cristal clear about an item needing a +1 enhancement before adding properties. "Being magical" is not enough, and a 50gp torch ioun stone cannot be made a vorpal improvised weapon for a +5 price. It's not even DM fiat or rule 0, that's reading the rules.
Ironwood is temporary, runs into the problem that Magic weapon spell does.
Ironwood is a lot easier to extend the duration by recasting though. It's essentially a no brainer to have it up perpetually. Not the same with Magic Weapon.
but it makes it ineligible for adding permanent additions based on the temporary +1
If he is being a pain over an issue where he is clearly wrong, what is he going to be like when you come across an in-game issue that is not so clear cut?
He needs to toe the line now or it is likely he is going to continually be a problem.
Wild isn't part of PF. There's a good reason why they didn't include it. Why not just use PF?
Wild isn't part of PF. There's a good reason why they didn't include it. Why not just use PF?
Wild is a part of PF.. its right there in the Magic Armor special ability section of the core rule book. Others have said this. It is true.
Wild: The wearer of a suit of armor or a shield with this ability preserves his armor bonus (and any enhancement bonus) while in a wild shape. Armor and shields with this ability usually appear to be covered in leaf patterns. While the wearer is in a wild shape, the armor cannot be seen.
Moderate transmutation; CL 9th; Craft Magic Arms and Armor, baleful polymorph; Price +3 bonus.
If you think it's not, just double check before you post, it won't muddy the discussion that way.
Don't disallow the character, just tell him you require the +1 enhancement on the armor, that's how you understand it's done.
Tell the player that's how it works in your game (if he doesn't believe you) and that's how all magic item special abilities work. If you stress that this is a universal rule in the game and not a specific rule against him, he might understand more.
In my opinion the wild property is broken even for a +3 bonus, especially considering you can put it on a shield and armor. It can easily add up to giving a +10 armor bonus and an additional +3 shield bonus. If you want to cheese it take a monk level as well for additional wisdom bonus to AC, altogether a druid ends up having way better AC than other party members early on.
Even if you told him you'd remove it from the game he'd just have to deal or not play, a little discussion is fine but you have to be the final arbiter of the rules if you are certain it should be enough.
Why is it broken? Lets consider the best the Druid can put it on: +1 Wild Dragonhide Breastplate, +1 Wild Darkwood Heavy Shield. Total armor bonus: +7 and +3shield. Cost: 17000+16257 = 33257gp at minimum level 11 (WBL unless crafting yourself)
Combined with Wild Shape (huge) we get the following (Assuming a level 11 strength of 18 and dexterity of 18):
AC 10+7Armor+3shield+2dex+6Natural(size)+4Natural(barkskin)-2(size)+2deflectio n= 32.
Meanwhile the Fighter of the group has similar physical stats, plate armor, heavy shield etc. :
AC 10+13+6shield+4dex+2natural(amulet)+2deflection = 37.
This is an off the cuff quick build. If I dived into it deeper I can probably optimize it but the point is that the wild shaping druid WITH wild armor still doesnt have the AC to keep up with the fighter. I see no issue with a druid that is trying to be the wild shape tank. Cool, powerful, not overpowered though. (Note: the fighter will still way outdamage the druid even including the druid's spells.)
- Gauss
It's only "broken" if you ignore the cost.
And if you ignore the costs, the whole damn crafting system is broken. If you ignore the costs, a 3rd level mage can become a lich, and a 5th level one can create Wish items. Hell, even with the costs, a 3rd level guy can craft one-shot Gate items.