I have a theory that by the hundredth post every thread necessarily has nothing to do with the original post and is instead governed by a back and forth about an unrelated technical point and/or grudge match between two or more posters.
I call this Boggard's first law of forum thread counts.
/thread.
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I have a theory that by the hundredth post every thread necessarily has nothing to do with the original post and is instead governed by a back and forth about an unrelated technical point and/or grudge match between two or more posters.
I call this Boggard's first law of forum thread counts.
Only Hitler would post such a thing.
The way I always viewed the hand crossbow was as a weapon any rogue with the quickdraw feat would want hidden on their person at all times. Since there's no penalty for one handed firing, if you want to get that sneak attack at 30 ft. in the surprise round, you can just pull out that hand crossbow and fire. After that you should probably drop it or put it away. It's not worth the feat IMO, but if you can get it for free then it's not a bad thing to have for that purpose at least.
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Hush, you. Clearly this thread is now about swimming in plate mail. And Hitler.
/Your hand crossbow assessment is reasonable.
As you have astutely pointed out, the rules make some allowance for the encumbrance / weight of plate mail by imposing an armour check penalty. The question is, does this rule accurately reflect reality?It's already factored in. Plate Mail has a built in armor check penalty plus more for it's weight. Both of these stack against swim checks.
What's reality? Do Dragons, mindflayers, and medusae reflect reality? For that matter what is plate mail? AFAIK, it's not the total tin can armor that people associate with jousting events, which was pretty much the only time such armor was worn, being specifically designed for such sport. It's much like the banded mail argument as I'm not even sure most people have a consistent or even accurate definition of what the term "plate mail" means.
I've seen various artistic representations of what people call "plate mail" in fantasy art and they've run the gamut of coverage and bulk.
Sigh, did you read the rest of that post you quoted? I have nothing wrong with reality rules bending in a fantasy rpg. I believe I made that clear when I said "awesome" rather than "stupid".
I was merely trying to explain the reason why people were talking about swimming in plate mail at all: that it makes no sense to pick on the rogue whose x-bow sits in his pack loaded all day (dude, can you imagine what the tension would do to the string???) when many other examples of similar implaussible / unlikely things exist in the game (such as mindflayers and whatever, as you pointed out, and such as swimming in tin can armour, as others have pointed out).
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I'd imagine a magical crossbow and the unicorn hair it uses for a string would be better able to withstand being kept taut all day.
I'd imagine a magical crossbow and the unicorn hair it uses for a string would be better able to withstand being kept taut all day.
YES! I love this!
Of course, the other issue is accidental misfires and weapon jams.
Unicorn hair, dude.
EDIT: And dragon bone safety switches, lubricated with oil made from ground-up pixies.
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I picked the wrong day to stop snorting pixie dust
It's always a wrong day to cold turkey the pixie dust.
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any in game defense of why the hand crossbow or repeating crossbow should require 2 hands went out the window with the addition of guns. if there's enough technology to make wheel-lock pistols, there shouldn't be any holdback.
in the new thundercat cartoon, Pumira has a foldable hand crossbow on her forearm guard, that uses bullets/pellets/stones like a sling.
there's fantasy/fiction precident to be able to do cool stuff with a hand crossbow. the game rules just limit this at present. i'm lobbying for some change! if elected... oh nevermind.
My step-son's character plays a rogue/ninja type with an arm-mounted hand crossbow. Why? Because it's badass, that's why.
I have a solution...
Animated Hand Crossbows
They are more durable, can be magically enhanced as normal, and since they have hit dice, they can have feats!
Like Rapid Reload....
Do I win this interwebzz?
It gives the single class core rogue something to spend his feats on! Improved Initiative, Rapid Reload, Quick Draw. Win initiative in the surprise round, quickdraw and load hand crossbow, boom-headshot the closest flat-footed dude. Round two, full attack, boom boom-more headshots against other flat-footed dudes. At least, that's what my rogue does.
You can dual wield them and nowhere is it written that you cannot keep them loaded at all time!
Round 1 of a fight that you do not get the drop on the enemy (those happen!)
- Swift action, draw smoke stick from your bandolier/belt, throw smoke stick ahead, move 15 feet back and diagonally, draw first hand crossbow as a free action.
Round 2
- Stealth as a standard action (thank you smoke stick!), move back furthermore back 15 feet and draw second hand crossbow.
Round 3
- Execute whoever was stupid enough to charge you through the smoke since you are now hiding. Pow! 1d4 + sneak attack damage! you can hit a second target or the main target if you miss your first shot!
But yeah, not the best weapon ever but hey it's pretty fun to use since it gives you one hand free at all time!
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Usually it is only said DMs limited personal experience on a subject that lends itself to his oft-times wrong ruling.So, you know a lot of people who can swim encased in 100 lbs of dead weight, do you?
I could actually pull it off.
Rangers (the actual US military ones) have to swim around with close to 50 pound of gear on them in training.
It would be a pretty heroic and unique feat of strength and should not be called swimming, more like drowning slower than usual, hehehe.
That said, do you know many magician that can actually cast real spells? , or have you seen any real unicorn lately? It's a rule set system that has nothing to do with the current law of physics or thermodynamics or energy conservation laws! In this world there is nothing like buoyancy! A naked mage with 10 STR carrying 2 bag of holding type 4 and no ranks in swim as more chances to drown than your fighter with 18 STR and a full plate on his back!
You want to go insane? LOOK AT THE FLYING MECHANICS, especially the dragon and their insane flyspeeds! They go at almost 1/4 of the speed of sound and are gargantuan size creatures that weigh a few hundred tons!
And here I thought my no free hands needed, self reloading as a free action hand crossbows were epic...
Every time I use hand crossbows my players just assume the user is going to poison them...and rightly so actually.
When the rogue or the assassin is braced, glued against a wall, hung from the ceiling by claws, a peak or a rope, and he would silently eliminate a sentry or an enemy, he can not use a bow or a crossbow and a throwing weapon requires large movements, which is neither discrete nor easy in this case (I always apply a penalty of -2 to -10 on the attack and stealth rolls). Both appropriate weapons in this case are the blowgun and the hand crossbow (the pistol works also but immediately reveals your position).
Stop arrange fights on a flat surface in full light to propose real undercover sessions (with places to hide, places to climb, places from which to draw in ambush and full of powerful enough sentinels make him bitterly regret the slightest misstep ...) In these conditions I bet the hand crossbow would be soon your rogue's best friend.
Again, the Ultimate Campaign could help to introduce deadly clandestine raids into enemy strongholds in favor of the night in our campaigns.
Otherwise yes, a hand crossbow against a tarasque in a plain that is pitiful. It would be better to have a ballista or trebuchet... And btw, if you throw an H-Bomb on the great Cthulhu, it regenerates and now he is also radioactive... :)
Everyone keeps mentioning that the hand crossbow is great because it's "concealable." Are there rules for that somewhere, or is this just something that's being declared based on fluff? Because unless I'm missing a section, it seems like, RAW, a greatclub is equally "concealable."
In contrast, the weapon table for the old James Bond 007 game actually listed the DC equivalent to conceal each weapon.
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I'm in a combat LARP. I often use hand crossbows in it. While it's not quite the same and the mechanics don't necessarily carry into pathfinder, I'll post some observations on them. Mostly a flavor thing though.
Hand crossbows are cheap. I can pick one up for 10 bucks. The $20 model works better for me, but you'll easily pay over $100 for a light crossbow.
Yes, you can duel-wield them. Or wield one and have a shield or a sword in the other hand (more common)
Reloading typically takes both hands. I've added a folding foot-stirrup to mine, and with it I can reload it one-handed.. But it's very difficult, takes 10-20 seconds, and leaves me wide-open and defenseless while I do it. Re-cocking the string is easy, it's getting the bolt in one-handed that's tricky.
On the other hand, I'm mobile. I can reload while running. Sometimes I manage to then turn and hit the guy chasing me. A larger crossbow typically needs both hands on the string / crank, and the stock braced against your stomach, so you loose mobility.
The bolt falling out is very rare. There is a spring that holds it in (called the Spoon) that does it's job well. There's also a safety on the crossbow to prevent accidental fire. You can flick it off with your thumb easily.
You will definitely want your quiver at the hip instead of the shoulder. Bolts for a hand-crossbow look more like throwing darts, and are only about 6" long. My larp-bolts are big clunky things with gigantic padded heads, so they don't work so well for that.
You could carry a brace of them, but it's tricky. Because the pistol-grip and the prods (the bow part)are perpendicular, they stick out annoyingly. You have to be particular about the order you use them in, as the prods will be overlapping and blocking each other. Much harder than with pistols, though much lighter.
I've tried weapon-cording them. I end up tying it to my shoulder instead, so that it hangs at arm's length. It works ok, but not great.
you loose mobility.
does it's job
Like the other two loaded hand crossbows you have strapped to your chest
Why a hand crossbow is the wrong question.
Why a Rubber Ducky, guy? Why not a chicken?
One thing that bugs me about hand crossbows is that they are listed as exotic weapons. Since exotic weapons represent weapons that require extra-special training to use properly, that would imply that using one of these things is hard.
However, historically, crossbows were so effective because they didn't require any special training to use: You just point ans shoot! (This is reflected in the rules by regular crossbows being simple weapons.) I think that hand crossbows got listed as exotic weapons in 3.0 because they're supposed to be very unusual. But that's not what "exotic weapon" means.
In my homerules, hand crossbows are simple weapons that are very expensive (1000 gp) and hard to find because they are very difficult to construct. At the same time, all hand crossbows are Masterwork weapons, because it takes a master to build one propertly.
But anyone can pick one up and use it effectively: It's a point-and-shoot weapon!
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In my homerules, hand crossbows are simple weapons that are very expensive (1000 gp) and hard to find because they are very difficult to construct. At the same time, all hand crossbows are Masterwork weapons, because it takes a master to build one propertly.
Having made a crossbow, I disagree. Making the prods is no harder than making them for a bow. There are a lot of ways to make the trigger, which will change how fast the string wears out but not have much other effect. The simplest are a shelf and a lever. If you want something higher-quality like a wheel-nut, then yes, it get's more complicated, but even then on par with maybe, Masterwork Manacles at 50gp.
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In my homerules, hand crossbows are simple weapons that are very expensive (1000 gp) and hard to find because they are very difficult to construct. At the same time, all hand crossbows are Masterwork weapons, because it takes a master to build one propertly.
But anyone can pick one up and use it effectively: It's a point-and-shoot weapon!
That's both realistic & reasonable. Realistic meaning there's a good "realism" rationale to it, which normally isn't sufficient (IMO) to change a rule, but reasonable because what should set "exotic weapons" apart is that they ought to offer a mechanical advantage worth investing an extra feat in (or, for classes that get them "for free," an advantage to that class). Hand crossbows don't.
One thing I'd quibble with is your price. IMO, even at 100 gp it would represent the rarity. It might be that they're simply unavailable in some areas. But 100 gp is a lot of money for any weapon, particularly a mechanically "meh" one. 1K as a base for non-masterwork, non-enchanted seems like too much.
If it were me I'd have them priced at 100 gp, but only available in major cities or in locales where they're culturally used. This would make them "scarce" but not "exotic" (in a rules-sense).
I think they can be hidden on you, but if the light crossbow can be hidden then it's just a style. :)
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Generally from a design standpoint, Exotics should be 'better' then martials. They should either do more damage for less (Dwarven Waraxe with its 1d12 one-handed), or give weird benefits, or have odd rules (like the caber from old 3e).
There are some exotic weapons though that fail on this, and do less damage, or don't really have a 'feature' for them.
The hand cross bow is not one of these. Its smaller, can be used in two hands. You can waft into a battle with a rapier in one hand and a poisoned hand-crossbow in the other.
They do absolutely piddly damage, but they're meant as a poison delivery system and they do that job quite well.
I'll have to check earlier my AD&D books when I get a chance. Originally, they were dangerous because getting hit by one in the hands of a drow meant save or sleep (and then, probably, die). So they were more of a poison delivery system than for killing stuff with damage.
Also, not sure about their fire rate, but a lot of stuff has changed, like how attacks/round work, and TWF and attacks/round, etc. I think heavies used to have a rate of 1/3, so it's possible that lights were 1/2 and hand were 1/1. Like I said, though, I don't have my books atm and that may be way off.
As for why you'd use them in PF? Racial/cultural preference. Makes me wonder if there are weapons that are never used due to their numbers not being optimal.
Also, nice referencing 1st/2nd Ed. poisons! Should definitely be considered when discussing the hand crossbow. Ah, back when poisons were dangerous, and could kill you.
Also.
Ultravision.
Being able to see further then everyone else, with a ranged weapon made for close-quarters and low ceilings.
The crossbows should have strength ratings, and Hand Crossbows should be simple weapons. A Hand Crossbow would require the least amount of strength. I have one, it has a 45 pound pull. It is easy. My larger crossbow has a 155-pound pull (and a stirrup in front). After shooting for a while you get tired.