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Dudes! As was already pointed out, the answer is to grow a vestigial "reloading" arm. 2 level vivisectionist dip ftw!
Yeah, it's unfortunate that the only options are freak (vestigial arm) or cheese (quickdraw to fire 7 different x-bows in a single round).
Would be nice if you could simply reload a hand x-bow with only 1 hand. It might actually be worth the EWP then.
I always thought that the reason for having a hand crossbow was that it was a concealable weapon that could shoot poisoned bolts a fair distance.
If you're looking to do HP damage with a hand crossbow you're better off holding it in two hands and bashing someone over the head with it.
I always thought that the reason for having a hand crossbow was that it was a concealable weapon that could shoot poisoned bolts a fair distance.
If you're looking to do HP damage with a hand crossbow you're better off holding it in two hands and bashing someone over the head with it.
Exactly. It is a concealable,precision-damage,poison delivery system. And it isnt noisy like a gun. I would fire one on the first round, before (hopefully) anyone else, except maybe the mage on my team,drop it (maybe them) and get to flanking with my melee partner.
So you just walk around with multiple loaded crossbows on your person? Do you have any idea what prolonged tension does to a draw string? Also, how do you not shoot yourself every time you take a tumble?
Do your fighters have any issues with their platemail rusting? Rangers leather armour become all stretched and wrecked from being exposed to rain and water etc for session after session? Does your Wizard find himself buying new robes on a continual basis?
No?
So why bring a bow string into this?
Crossbowkata. Ahahahahaaha!
The following round, the party Fighter would pull the small bolt out of his shoulder and proceed to split the Rogue in two with his ax.
Is that the same fighter who just swam a mile in his platemail like it was made of cork and ran a marathon in it too with no worries?
having shot one of these modern reproductions, the hand crossbow cannot penetrate a 1/2 inch wooden board. from 6 feet. accurately.
the crossbow could conceivably have a safety mechanism that includes a 'lockdown' grip over the bolt.
I can only imagine one way to effectively store two crossbows strapped to your chest, and that would entice any witty gm to roll chance of triggering any time you're struck, since the bolts face up at a convenient angle for your face.
I could also see a tether arrangement with two loaded xbows dangling from straps, and two more in the hand, also tethered. make a special arrangement with your gm to special feat quickdraw, tossing the spent ones up and grabbing the handles of the danglers. The price? what the hell are you going to effectively draw and fight with, with two xbows dangling and interfering with each hand.
Wow, that's a pretty impressive fighter! I thought he was just attacking in reponse to getting hit with a bolt, but that he did all that other stuff, too?
Well, you wanted to apply 'realism' to the other person, you applying the same level to said fighter?
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The following round, the party Fighter would pull the small bolt out of his shoulder and proceed to split the Rogue in two with his ax.Is that the same fighter who just swam a mile in his platemail like it was made of cork and ran a marathon in it too with no worries?
Or the same fighter that just took a couple bolts from the assassin....coated in Purple Worm poison and some drow sleep, tears of death or some other fun poison.....sure the fighter has high saves but the dice-gods are fickle at times.
Wow, that's a pretty impressive fighter! I thought he was just attacking in reponse to getting hit with a bolt, but that he did all that other stuff, too?Well, you wanted to apply 'realism' to the other person, you applying the same level to said fighter?I've never allowed a fighter, or anyone for that matter, to swim in plate mail or run a marathon in it either. I don't know of any GM who has.
Don't get me wrong. There's plenty of unnatural stuff a fighter, particularly a high level fighter can do (for example, stay on a flying dragen while fighting it with a dagger). A rogue can do plenty of unnatural stuff, too. But, I always ask myself, "if this were a book, is this the point where the reader would get excited or where their suspension of disbelief would be broken?"
There's no mechanic preventing a fighter from swimming in plate mail or running a marathon in it. In fact, there are completely non-magical mechanics specifically allowing characters to run marathons in plate mail by allowing them to ignore speed penalties. The GM can add discretionary modifiers to the DC of the task; likewise, the GM can use discretion in deciding how reasonable packing seven loaded crossbows is in their setting.
RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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I've never allowed a fighter, or anyone for that matter, to swim in plate mail or run a marathon in it either. I don't know of any GM who has.Wow, that's a pretty impressive fighter! I thought he was just attacking in reponse to getting hit with a bolt, but that he did all that other stuff, too?Well, you wanted to apply 'realism' to the other person, you applying the same level to said fighter?
I find it funny when people who play with the same established group for most of their lives talk about not knowing anyone who does X.
A 7th-level vanilla fighter has only a -3 ACP in his masterwork full plate and masterwork light shield/buckler (or -2 if he has the Armor Expert trait). He can swim, climb, tumble (if trained in Acrobatics) and move at full speed in that armor.
Just because you houseruled that out doesn't mean most other people have, and doesn't mean anyone who hasn't is some sort of oddity.
Additionally, using your houserules as a metric for determining what does and doesn't make sense in the unmodified rules is laughably silly.
Not saying there's anything wrong with having your fighter-related houserules, but acting like it's par for the course for any reasonable Pathfinder player does nothing but expose how big your ego is.
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I've never allowed a fighter, or anyone for that matter, to swim in plate mail or run a marathon in it either. I don't know of any GM who has.Wow, that's a pretty impressive fighter! I thought he was just attacking in reponse to getting hit with a bolt, but that he did all that other stuff, too?Well, you wanted to apply 'realism' to the other person, you applying the same level to said fighter?I find it funny when people who play with the same established group for most of their lives talk about not knowing anyone who does X.
A 7th-level vanilla fighter has only a -3 ACP in his masterwork full plate and masterwork light shield/buckler (or -2 if he has the Armor Expert trait). He can swim, climb, tumble (if trained in Acrobatics) and move at full speed in that armor.
Just because you houseruled that out doesn't mean most other people have, and doesn't mean anyone who hasn't is some sort of oddity.
Additionally, using your houserules as a metric for determining what does and doesn't make sense in the unmodified rules is laughably silly.
Not saying there's anything wrong with having your fighter-related houserules, but acting like it's par for the course for any reasonable Pathfinder player does nothing but expose how big your ego is.
Day-em!! Cold-busted!! You got served!!!
Actually my group and all the DMs I have played with try to stick with RAW rulings, including swimming in Plate and all that...we all just make sure to apply the respective ACP to the skills and whatnot....I generally dislike rulings by DMs who cite "realism" as a reason for their rulings. Usually it is only said DMs limited personal experience on a subject that lends itself to his oft-times wrong ruling.Had a DM once impose all the negatives for fighting in chest high water then he also decided that the PCs should also be considered flat-footed and have an effective 0 dex with those penalties also....It was the beginning of the end for me and that DM.
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Usually it is only said DMs limited personal experience on a subject that lends itself to his oft-times wrong ruling.So, you know a lot of people who can swim encased in 100 lbs of dead weight, do you?
It's been done by mundane people in real life. therefore it should certainly be int he realm of possibility for fantasy heroes with magic. Also, full plate is 50 pounds, not 100.
Where has it been done by real people? I'd like a reference.It's been done by mundane people in real life. therefore it should certainly be int he realm of possibility for fantasy heroes with magic. Also, full plate is 50 pounds, not 100.Usually it is only said DMs limited personal experience on a subject that lends itself to his oft-times wrong ruling.So, you know a lot of people who can swim encased in 100 lbs of dead weight, do you?
I don't know where it is at now, but someone posted a YouTube video of military swimming in 100+ pounds of gear in a similar discussion. It was slow and difficult, but they did it.
I don't know where it is at now, but someone posted a YouTube video of military swimming in 100+ pounds of gear in a similar discussion. It was slow and difficult, but they did it.Where has it been done by real people? I'd like a reference.It's been done by mundane people in real life. therefore it should certainly be int he realm of possibility for fantasy heroes with magic. Also, full plate is 50 pounds, not 100.Usually it is only said DMs limited personal experience on a subject that lends itself to his oft-times wrong ruling.So, you know a lot of people who can swim encased in 100 lbs of dead weight, do you?
Swimming in modern military gear ≠ swimming in full plate. If weight were the only issue, oil tankers would sink. It's more to do with density and encumbrance.
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Usually it is only said DMs limited personal experience on a subject that lends itself to his oft-times wrong ruling.So, you know a lot of people who can swim encased in 100 lbs of dead weight, do you?
Never met someone with a strength of 25 either....or an intelligence that makes Einstein look stupid.....or who could manage to take no damage in a room with no cover that is engulfed in flame....
It's a game. Magic is involved and people are not standard issue earth humans. They have abilities far above anything we have on earth. Take a look at the jumping rules. Take a look at holding breath....with a barbarian who has a 24 constitution....far above what earth-humans can achieve. I really don't care if real life people can't do something, Pathfinder people can. It's ok to assume someone can change the physics of the world at whim with spells though, right? Know many people who can summon devils to fight for them, do you? Or take the form of a dragon?
It's already factored in. Plate Mail has a built in armor check penalty plus more for it's weight. Both of these stack against swim checks.
As you have astutely pointed out, the rules make some allowance for the encumbrance / weight of plate mail by imposing an armour check penalty. The question is, does this rule accurately reflect reality? Some people here are suggesting that it doesn't, and that the mere fact that the rules allow for the possibility of running/swimming a triathlon in plate mail at all is ridiculous. I have some sympathy for this point of view, although I prefer to think of it as "awesome" instead of "stupid". The general point is that arguments about whether it would be realistic to keep a bowstring taut all day are moot when one considers the realism of other elements of the game.
Now, with the post in question I was merely pointing out to RD that swimming in modern combat gear can't simply be equated with swimming in plate mail. It's highly likely that modern combat gear is designed with some degree of swimmability in mind. Certainly the same can't be said for plate mail.
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Usually it is only said DMs limited personal experience on a subject that lends itself to his oft-times wrong ruling.So, you know a lot of people who can swim encased in 100 lbs of dead weight, do you?Never met someone with a strength of 25 either....or an intelligence that makes Einstein look stupid.....or who could manage to take no damage in a room with no cover that is engulfed in flame....
It's a game. Magic is involved and people are not standard issue earth humans. They have abilities far above anything we have on earth. Take a look at the jumping rules. Take a look at holding breath....with a barbarian who has a 24 constitution....far above what earth-humans can achieve. I really don't care if real life people can't do something, Pathfinder people can. It's ok to assume someone can change the physics of the world at whim with spells though, right? Know many people who can summon devils to fight for them, do you? Or take the form of a dragon?
As I said earlier, there is plenty of stuff that I'd allow that is beyond human ability. I gave an example of staying on a dragon in flight while fighting it with a dagger. That's quite beyond human ability.
The laws of physics are not. Things heavier than water sink. 100 lbs (or even 50 lbs) of steel is going to sink. Unless there is a magical explanation, the laws of physics still apply.
You want to do something crazy that would require superhuman levels of skill or attributes like toss a ton of stone down a hallway and you've got the attributes/skill to support it? Be my guest. I love it.
You want to just magically (or, rather, let me emphasize, non-magically) cease the laws of physics? No. Its not going to happen.
Personally, I think its lazy on the part of the player. I think they could come up with some awesome action that gets the job down, shows off their superhuman skills/attributes, and doesn't break the laws of physics/the...
If you're going to bring physics into it, at least do it right. I'm (barely) denser than (fresh) water, depending on how much air is in my lungs. And yet, in utter defiance of the laws of physics, I'm able to swim! I did it yesterday! I can even swim while carrying something more significantly denser than water, something that makes our combined density significantly greater than water and that will easily sink me if I just go limp. I realize that my claim of being able to swim while holding a rock might be difficult to believe, given that it will require rewriting most of what we throught we knew about physics, but I assure you -- no trickery is involved! If any physicists are reading this and would like a demonstration of my incredible physics-rewriting ability to swim while holding something dense, please contact me and I will demonstrate. I would be willing to submit to whatever experimental conditions you desire, within reason, but am unable to travel outside the greater Chicago area due to work obligations. I realize that swimming while being an object that sinks violates physics, and physics will have to be rewritten in light of my incredible ability to do so, but I don't seek any special credit; I'm content to just help out science.
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Where has it been done by real people? I'd like a reference.It's been done by mundane people in real life. therefore it should certainly be int he realm of possibility for fantasy heroes with magic. Also, full plate is 50 pounds, not 100.Usually it is only said DMs limited personal experience on a subject that lends itself to his oft-times wrong ruling.So, you know a lot of people who can swim encased in 100 lbs of dead weight, do you?
How about Here?
Video is black for a bit, talking bits & armor swim test start around 1:10 or so.
Where has it been done by real people? I'd like a reference.It's been done by mundane people in real life. therefore it should certainly be int he realm of possibility for fantasy heroes with magic. Also, full plate is 50 pounds, not 100.Usually it is only said DMs limited personal experience on a subject that lends itself to his oft-times wrong ruling.So, you know a lot of people who can swim encased in 100 lbs of dead weight, do you?How about Here?
Video is black for a bit, talking bits & armor swim test start around 1:10 or so.
I couldn't listen to the sound, as I'm nominally studying in the library at the moment. To me it looked like the tester couldn't really pull it off except for a few short bursts. That doesn't necessarily mean that a stronger, more athletic person couldn't do it (say with a strength score of 20+ and skill focus swim!).
Still, as a general proposition swimming in plate armour seems pretty unfeasible unless you're the kind of super human athlete that PCs usually are.
Cool video. Thanks for sharing that!
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Where has it been done by real people? I'd like a reference.It's been done by mundane people in real life. therefore it should certainly be int he realm of possibility for fantasy heroes with magic. Also, full plate is 50 pounds, not 100.Usually it is only said DMs limited personal experience on a subject that lends itself to his oft-times wrong ruling.So, you know a lot of people who can swim encased in 100 lbs of dead weight, do you?How about Here?
Video is black for a bit, talking bits & armor swim test start around 1:10 or so.
I couldn't listen to the sound, as I'm nominally studying in the library at the moment. To me it looked like the tester couldn't really pull it off except for a few short bursts. That doesn't necessarily mean that a stronger, more athletic person couldn't do it (say with a strength score of 20+ and skill focus swim!).
Still, as a general proposition swimming in plate armour seems pretty unfeasible unless you're the kind of super human athlete that PCs usually are.
Cool video. Thanks for sharing that!
Yup, that's pretty much what the tester said. "If someone were stronger or better trained, this could be feasible."
Darkwing, what part of "fantasy game" do you not understand? If a strong warrior swimming in full armor breaks your suspension of disbelief than how about a flying dragon or a guy in robes breaking the rules of reality?What part of
Do you not understand?
there is plenty of stuff that I'd allow that is beyond human ability. I gave an example of staying on a dragon in flight while fighting it with a dagger. That's quite beyond human ability.The laws of physics are not. Things heavier than water sink. 100 lbs (or even 50 lbs) of steel is going to sink. Unless there is a magical explanation, the laws of physics still apply.
You want to do something crazy that would require superhuman levels of skill or attributes like toss a ton of stone down a hallway and you've got the attributes/skill to support it? Be my guest. I love it.
You want to just magically (or, rather, let me emphasize, non-magically) cease the laws of physics? No. Its not going to happen.
Probably the part where somebody super strong can throw a ton of stone but can't, for some reason, swim while wearing something heavy because "dense stuff sinks". Both are just superhuman feats of strength. My example - that I'm able to swim while holding something heavy - was just a snarky way of pointing out that with sufficient strength (in my case, not much), it's possible to use muscle power to swim even if you're denser than the water, and thus swimming in armor is not a violation of the laws of physics that say that desne stuff sinks. Obviously dense stuff sinks, but if you're a good enough swimmer there's no intrinsic reason you couldn't swim anyway, any more than the fact that one-ton hunks of stone don't fly through the air on their own means that it's VIOLATING THE LAWS OF PHYSICS to pick one up and throw it. You do realize that "swimming" and "floating" are not the same action, right?
Darkwing, what part of "fantasy game" do you not understand? If a strong warrior swimming in full armor breaks your suspension of disbelief than how about a flying dragon or a guy in robes breaking the rules of reality?What part of
Do you not understand?
there is plenty of stuff that I'd allow that is beyond human ability. I gave an example of staying on a dragon in flight while fighting it with a dagger. That's quite beyond human ability.The laws of physics are not. Things heavier than water sink. 100 lbs (or even 50 lbs) of steel is going to sink. Unless there is a magical explanation, the laws of physics still apply.
You want to do something crazy that would require superhuman levels of skill or attributes like toss a ton of stone down a hallway and you've got the attributes/skill to support it? Be my guest. I love it.
You want to just magically (or, rather, let me emphasize, non-magically) cease the laws of physics? No. Its not going to happen.
The part that says aircraft carriers sink.
Note they weigh more than 100 lbs and are heavier than water. Maybe not denser but you didn't stipulate density just weight.
Also I hate the RAMVORD mentality.
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"I felt a great disturbance in the force . . . as if millions of catgirls suddenly cried out in terror and were suddenly silenced."
Talonhawke, I assumed that the density was implied given that we are talking about the strengths of medieval materials - steel - as armor. Do you happen to know a lot of people who wear aircraft carriers as armor?
The relevant question about swimming in plate armor isn't just about how strong a person is, but whether they can generate enough thrust. There is a limit to with how much force you can push against the water and that limit has a lot to do with the viscosity of the water itself. Beyond a certain point, adding more strength does nothing significant. Its like getting a car stuck in the mud. You can increase the engine size of the car, but all that means is that your tires will spin faster without going anywhere.
At least you've gotten to a statement that's technically true instead of just blatantly false, even if the effect is orders of magnitude too small to matter. (Unless the surface area of of the limbs the individual is using is also several orders of magnitude smaller than I think is a reasonable assumption.)
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I have a theory that by the hundredth post every thread necessarily has nothing to do with the original post and is instead governed by a back and forth about an unrelated technical point and/or grudge match between two or more posters.
I call this Boggard's first law of forum thread counts.