There's a LOT here to read and I'm going to come back around to it all but I just want to say ... thank you for posting this because you just gave me a great in-game idea.
My Gnome Wizard has a bit of a gem obsession and has just taken the Craft Arms/Armor feat. The party's Human Cleric (who's player is a min/max'er) is already planning to turn poor little Garth into a sweatshop employee.
Looks like Garth will be requiring a gem of good value to use as a focal point while he's doing the work. I'll estimate how much the materials will cost plus the gem to keep him focused on what's going on.
Thanks for answering the questions
In the business example:
Your assumption is that the crafter is the only one contributing to the "group". And he's not. if 4 guys are in business with each other the assumption is that they are all doing things to promote the business.
One guy may be out in the city promoting the business. Another guy is busy purchasing raw goods. Another guy is manning the store. Another guy is in the back crafting the items. They are all 4 doing very valuable things- one guy shouldn't be saying "i'm the one making things so I get to charge you guys an extra 10 off the top".In an adventuring group: everyone is still contributing. The fighter chose his feats to make combat better for all. The rogue chose his feats to make combat better (or to be a scout, or a skill monkey, or whatever he focused on). Each character is choosing their thigns to make themselves- and the rest of the group- better. What are they doing while you are crafting? while on the road- they are watching your butt. They may be taking your watch. They are helping you kill things to get more money to get more of whatever it is you like to get. They re also your friends. Your comrades. Them getting better is /you/ getting better. The Group gets better.
"I burned a feat for this so I get 10% off the top" just doesn't fly for me. I realize thats just my opinion and you don't have to agree- but its still my opinion.
In the business example, I was taking it for granted that everyone was contributing to the business. The crafter, for this example, let's say one of the partners learned a fair bit about electronics, can make nifty toys that could help everyone with their workload, but it is not their job at the shared company. Should the electronics guy have to make the nifty toys for the other three owners, during his vacation and off time?
To me, that would be a more accurate example.
In the adventuring example, I seem to be missing what the other PCs do during in town down time while the crafter is busy making items for the group.
If the rest of the group is out doing things for the group's benefit, then yes, a fee is probably not appropriate, but if all they are doing is goofing off, then I think a fee is appropriate.
Do you expect your co-worker to come over and spend his time re-roofing your house while you wath the game and drink a beer for free?
Except he's not roofing my house. He's installing SAM sites so his house doesn't get bombed.
I'd help but seeing as I have knowledge only of firing SAMs and not building them there's not much I can do except offer the man a lemonade and continue shooting down those bombers.
Now before you say"well pay him then" understand that nothing stopped me from moving to a different neighborhood or simply learning how to build sam sites myself. He chose to profit from my lack of knowledge. I chose to read the manual, do it myself while he wonders why he bothered to learn sam site building as a business if he couldn't charge his closest friends.
But you know what? It doesn't matter anyway because the stealth bomber wiped out the neighborhood.
In the adventuring example, I seem to be missing what the other PCs do during in town down time while the crafter is busy making items for the group.
If the rest of the group is out doing things for the group's benefit, then yes, a fee is probably not appropriate, but if all they are doing is goofing off, then I think a fee is appropriate.
In virtually all cases where we role play any downtime, every character is doing something for the group.
But there's another point here that you are missing Mist.
When the crafter took the crafting feat INSTEAD of a combat feat, he deferred some of his combat contribution to off-hours where his contribution became crafting items that make combat better.
His choice. He chose a path where his contribution is in part "after hours". He could have picked "Power Attack" and contributed directly.
So it is not unreasonable for the party members who took combat or metamagic feats to expect the crafter to hold up his end by crafting in his down time. That's the feat he picked.
Now, nobody is saying that the crafting PC is a "crafting slave" who has to do nothing but craft, craft, craft for the party.
What we are saying is that he took the feat, he must WANT to craft, he's just not going to turn the party into a profit center. That's all.
I would explain that to the party... and then hike my price up to 20% and tell them to stop crying or it goes up again. If they dont like it tell them to find another mage... at which point you can bring in another mage without the feat... and they can pay full price.If it were me, I would (In Char) do exactly that. When they kicked me out, I would then bring in the same build of caster minus the crafting feats. Then when I hear them complain that they can't afford an item, I'll mention to them (In Char) that if they continue to save thier money they can visit a certain "now NPC" crafter that is open for buisness at full price in a shop around the corner.
Yeah, it's petty revenge on my part, but a sweet revenge at that.. muahahaha.
but then you'd be penalizing your character too because then you can't get items at half price. I think its perfectly okay for you to refuse to craft for other people if you don't want to.
I'd like to remind people that you don't win pathfinder by being the strongest character in the party
Yeah I agree, I suffer as well from the full price items, but as I said.. it would be a form of petty revenge on my part :)
...So when the other party members ask the wizard to make items without compensation they are enriching themselves while the wizard gets nothing. Similar to the thief who enriches himself while the party gets nothing. Nothing different between the two, but one is theft since it benefits the individual, and the other is not because the group benefits while the individual gets nothing? In fact in thisSo the party rogue takes skill focus (stealth) and buys some good boots/cloak for it and dumps a /ton/ of skill points into that and sleight of hand.
The next time some big bad dies he makes some die rolls, passes a note to the DM, and scores something off the top. Into his pocket, no one notices.
Is he a thief? Is it "alright" because he dumped skills and feats into it?
Nope. A thief is a thief. Using your class abilities to steal from the players is.. well.. stealing from the other players.
The more I think about it, the more I'd just IC ditch the character and leave him at his temple to Abadar, wish him luck and move on without him. Which is exactly what would happen to the Thief, assuming the DM had a "no pvp" rule.. (in which case they would die, for becoming an enemy to the party. for the thief anyway, not necesarily applicable to the cleric here)
However you frame it, however you work around it, your character is using his feats/skills/whatever to steal money from the group. Its really just that simple. You can claim its for your god, you can claim you are getting something back for your feat taken, you can pretty much claim whatever you want.
But you are still stealing money from the group you are supposed to be friends and comrades with- IC.
And IC, you shouldn't expect to hang out with them very long.
At least, in every group I've ever been with in my entire life. *they* would all consider it theft. And I would too.Your mileage may vary- but by the OP's original post, it seems they too take a very dim view of the activity.
-S
I disagree,
If you craft for free the person you're crafting for, party member or not, is gaining all the benefit while you gain nothing and you paid a feat to do it. Sure the party is 50% stonger but the crafting character is 25% weaker. To give an example, a wizard who spends his valuable down time crafting for another player can't craft for themselves. So while the fighter might be getting a good sword the wizard is left paying full price to make up the shortage they have in scrolls and potions.
So if the wizard were to charge, 50% it is win win for both party members. One gets a magic item 25% off and the other gains 25% to make up for the loss of time when they could craft for themselves. That way the cafter could buy items they need at full price with the profit. The party is better off this way.
The alternative is the wizard doesn't craft all for other players and that just does the opposite.
I think the key is that in any logical sense you are asking the player to be your slave when crafting for you. After all he's technically doing everything at cost you also aren't paying for his food housing clothing etc nor are you paying him for the potential profit he could make doing anything else at all with all of the time he's using on you. From an RP perspective it's pretty much insane and nobody would do it.
For that matter 10% is pretty darn minor if the other characters rage I'd shrug and inform them that my time is very limited and they're welcome to seek out another crafter I'd relish the time to spend working on my own projects however it is exceedingly unlikely that they will ever find a better deal.
Option A: roll percentile, if successful pay full retail
Option B: commission party Wizard to craft item at cost + 10%, no percentile roll necessary.
How is this even an issue?
Lets look at this another way. The chars in the OP were 5th level. 5th level WBL is listed at 10,500. Now if all his money was spent to the crafter to make items for him @10%, the crafter would earn a whopping 1909gp. Yet he increased the party members WBL to essentially 20,999gp.
It truely is worth it to pay the 10%. And like I mentioned, my costs are a gp per day thing, which calculates closer to 5%. Now tell me that it's unreasonable to ask to be compensated for your time and effort into making someone else rich. Even a slave laborer would cost the party 500gp for christs sake, and you expect me to be your slave and do your crafting bidding for free. Completely unreasonable if you ask me.
So the crafter earns 1909 from each of his 4 (standard number of) companions so he gets 7627gp (+ 10,500), for all his hard work and time. Afterwards he uses this to craft his own items, so he has 36,254gp of items as compared to each of the party members 20,999gp. Of course this is an extreme case & wouldn't happen. Anyway, the scenario seems to have been resolved.
make sure OOG the player is okay with being charged a premium and more importantly the GM (my GM doesn't like me having much wealth because I tend to optimize well). If not, i would suggest subtracting the Gem from the price of the item, but it would still mean the cleric has to do some looking and role playing to get you to craft something.There's a LOT here to read and I'm going to come back around to it all but I just want to say ... thank you for posting this because you just gave me a great in-game idea.
My Gnome Wizard has a bit of a gem obsession and has just taken the Craft Arms/Armor feat. The party's Human Cleric (who's player is a min/max'er) is already planning to turn poor little Garth into a sweatshop employee.
Looks like Garth will be requiring a gem of good value to use as a focal point while he's doing the work. I'll estimate how much the materials will cost plus the gem to keep him focused on what's going on.
I'll bring it up the next time we're getting to a point where crafting items will be possible. Right now we're in the middle of a dungeon crawl so there's nothing available for me to work with anyway.
Hopefully we'll be able to do some stuff OOG and via email ... we wasted over an hour sifting through magic items and selling stuff on the weekend. Oh, and the min/max'er showed up and hadn't leveled his character up yet.
One thing that isn't being discussed is "where is the crafter getting all the gold needed to craft in the first place?"
In the vast majority of my gaming groups, the majority of party funds are kept in a party pool. If one of the party has crafting feats, then party funds are pulled so they can craft a specific requested item. They aren't spending their gold, so if they fail, it's a party risk, not the caster risk. Since the party funded the item, the party gets the benefit of it. So the crafted item is essentially put back into the party pool and then disbursed to the character who needs it.
That might be the crafting member themselves.
If the crafter saved up all their cash and made an item and then wanted to try to sell it to a party member at a premium, I suppose I'd just allow that to be role played out. But if they attempted that and failed, they lost their gold.
But in my parties it would take a long, long time to save up that much gold. The party is treated as a for-profit enterprise and mostly the members only have what funds are needed to pay for food, clothing and mundane supplies usually. The rest is treated as "company cash".
There are periodic checks to see how balanced everyone is, and if someone is out of balance, we spend gold or craft items to bring that person in balance.
Between major campaigns we might allocate a share of the gold to each party member as "their share" to upgrade stuff, but it's specifically to upgrade stuff, not to invest in a local tavern or start a ponzi scheme to get rich. The funds are still kept by the party treasurer and the merchants are paid out of the party gold pile.
In short each member of the party is not a self-contained mercantile mercenary.
We're a team.
I look at it like from the point of view of both a DM and a player. Character A (we'll call him Chris the Crafter) is playing a caster who takes several crafting feats.
He soon discovers that if the creates something and then sells it to the local magic shop, he doesn't make any profit. Cost of crafting is 50% of the price, and he can only sell the item to the shop for 50% of price. End result, no profit.
But, he can make things for himself, saving him 50% from the normal prices that Magik-Mart charges. He notices, however, that in the course of adventuring, that his companions consistently receive more treasure, until one day the wealth of his gear matches that of his companions, and then he starts getting an equal share once again.
Now, Character B (we'll call him Petey the Paladin) comes by Chris the Crafters room one night and asks him if he would consider upgrading his shield from a +1 heavy steel shield to a +2 heavy steel shield. That's a 3,000 gp difference in the price (1,500 gp difference in crafting cost).
Chris the Crafter tells Petey the Paladin no problem, dude, I'll have this finished for you either tomorrow or the day after. But it'll cost you 1,650 gp because I'm tacking on an extra 10% for my time and effort.
Petey the Paladin is shocked. He and Chris the Crafter have adventured together for year, and he has healed Chris the Crafter, stood between him and a horde of Orcs, defended him against foes trying to coup-de-grace the caster when he was paralyzed that one time, and countless other deeds of great bravery, camaraderie, and derring-do. Shocked, I say!
Chris the Crafter can't make a profit selling a magic item in the game to anyone except his fellow party members. Yes, he is saving Petey the Paladin 1,350 gp that he would have to pay Magik-Mart to upgrade his shield, but he is trying to exceed his own wealth guidelines in the process.
Of course, a good DM will go tsk, tsk, tsk, and once again cut down Chris the Crafter's treasure until his wealth matches that of his companions, just like he will do to Petey the Paladin, so that his new shield doesn't exceed his own wealth guidelines.
So, in conclusion, if you DM is running the system right, all Chris the Crafter is doing is being a jerk and alienating his own party--because he cannot profit in game by crafting magic items. Not even those he crafts for his fellow party members.
Master Arminas
One thing that isn't being discussed is "where is the crafter getting all the gold needed to craft in the first place?"
In the vast majority of my gaming groups, the majority of party funds are kept in a party pool. If one of the party has crafting feats, then party funds are pulled so they can craft a specific requested item. They aren't spending their gold, so if they fail, it's a party risk, not the caster risk. Since the party funded the item, the party gets the benefit of it. So the crafted item is essentially put back into the party pool and then disbursed to the character who needs it.
That might be the crafting member themselves.
If the crafter saved up all their cash and made an item and then wanted to try to sell it to a party member at a premium, I suppose I'd just allow that to be role played out. But if they attempted that and failed, they lost their gold.
But in my parties it would take a long, long time to save up that much gold. The party is treated as a for-profit enterprise and mostly the members only have what funds are needed to pay for food, clothing and mundane supplies usually. The rest is treated as "company cash".
There are periodic checks to see how balanced everyone is, and if someone is out of balance, we spend gold or craft items to bring that person in balance.
Between major campaigns we might allocate a share of the gold to each party member as "their share" to upgrade stuff, but it's specifically to upgrade stuff, not to invest in a local tavern or start a ponzi scheme to get rich. The funds are still kept by the party treasurer and the merchants are paid out of the party gold pile.
In short each member of the party is not a self-contained mercantile mercenary.
We're a team.
Well said AD. Well said.
Master Arminas
I would explain that to the party... and then hike my price up to 20% and tell them to stop crying or it goes up again. If they dont like it tell them to find another mage... at which point you can bring in another mage without the feat... and they can pay full price.And that would happen. Because not only is he being exploitative he's being a t@** about it.
Or he is just putting his foot down when the party tries to exploit his downtime for their advantage.
I dont know what type of game your used to. I have played in games with people who had to have their hand in everyone elses character. Telling them what feats and skills they should take. What spells to memorize. Who should be in the lead and who should follow. THOSE are usually the characters we kick to the curb.
Not a character that uses one of his own feats to earn gold and provide a large discount to the rest of the party. You say he should be required. I say the party should be HAPPY to tip 10% because in reality he could be making a 50 percent profit off that item he gave you.
Either way its his character. And you are not the DM. You can either pay 60% or 100% for your items. If your party lets their pride, and some false sence of entitlement force you to pay 100% then fine. I hope you feel vindicated as you pass your gold over to a NPC instead of the PC.
I disagree,
If you craft for free the person you're crafting for, party member or not, is gaining all the benefit while you gain nothing and you paid a feat to do it. Sure the party is 50% stonger but the crafting character is 25% weaker. To give an example, a wizard who spends his valuable down time crafting for another player can't craft for themselves. So while the fighter might be getting a good sword the wizard is left paying full price to make up the shortage they have in scrolls and potions.
So if the wizard were to charge, 50% it is win win for both party members. One gets a magic item 25% off and the other gains 25% to make up for the loss of time when they could craft for themselves. That way the cafter could buy items they need at full price with the profit. The party is better off this way.
The alternative is the wizard doesn't craft all for other players and that just does the opposite.
Or you could craft for yourself, craft for others, and still come out jsut fine.
And you know what? All the profiteer's are working off the assumption that one character has all the crafting feats. Reality wise I've found that once crafting starts you get most if not all the group taking one feat. And why not? That shares the load of time and feat investment.
Nothing makes the crafter special. Whether I buy the +1 longsword from you or craft it for myself it's still a +1 longsword. The only difference is who invested the two days to do it. And if those two days are worth 200 some odd gold to you then you can keep the money and I'll spend only eight hours a day drinking and wenching as opposed to my customary 16. :D
The OP mentioned that his character is married with a child.
IMHO he should spend what little free downtime he has crafting his own gear and spend the rest of his downtime with his wife and kid. The other PCs, who seem to have nothing but time on their hands, can take their own crafting feats or ranks in profession to craft or earn money on the side. Or they could role play having some sort of life when their not out solving crimes and killing monsters.
As a general rule, I think that if you want to be impose on someone else's down time between adventuring you should be willing to at least pay them a token sum for their time or at the very least be willing to spend your downtime doing stuff for them. I'm sure the wizard has a patio that could use refinishing or a stone wall that should be rebuilt. Honestly, if one of my co-workers started asking me to spend days or weeks of my free time building stuff for him I'd probably burst out laughing before telling him to get lost.
I look at it like from the point of view of both a DM and a player. Character A (we'll call him Chris the Crafter) is playing a caster who takes several crafting feats.
He soon discovers that if the creates something and then sells it to the local magic shop, he doesn't make any profit. Cost of crafting is 50% of the price, and he can only sell the item to the shop for 50% of price. End result, no profit.
But, he can make things for himself, saving him 50% from the normal prices that Magik-Mart charges. He notices, however, that in the course of adventuring, that his companions consistently receive more treasure, until one day the wealth of his gear matches that of his companions, and then he starts getting an equal share once again.
Now, Character B (we'll call him Petey the Paladin) comes by Chris the Crafters room one night and asks him if he would consider upgrading his shield from a +1 heavy steel shield to a +2 heavy steel shield. That's a 3,000 gp difference in the price (1,500 gp difference in crafting cost).
Chris the Crafter tells Petey the Paladin no problem, dude, I'll have this finished for you either tomorrow or the day after. But it'll cost you 1,650 gp because I'm tacking on an extra 10% for my time and effort.
Petey the Paladin is shocked. He and Chris the Crafter have adventured together for year, and he has healed Chris the Crafter, stood between him and a horde of Orcs, defended him against foes trying to coup-de-grace the caster when he was paralyzed that one time, and countless other deeds of great bravery, camaraderie, and derring-do. Shocked, I say!
Chris the Crafter can't make a profit selling a magic item in the game to anyone except his fellow party members. Yes, he is saving Petey the Paladin 1,350 gp that he would have to pay Magik-Mart to upgrade his shield, but he is trying to exceed his own wealth guidelines in the process.
Of course, a good DM will go tsk, tsk, tsk, and once again cut down Chris the Crafter's...
I am just trying to picture Murdock telling BA that he can't help with any of the maintenance work on his van without a cash investment from BA for his time.
... Except he's not roofing my house. He's installing SAM sites so his house doesn't get bombed ...
I disagree SAM sites to protect his house would be similar to magic items for him.
Your example sounds closer to, I will be more rested, healthy, happy, and more likely to cooperate with you at work because you re-roofed my house.
... I'd help but seeing as I have knowledge only of firing SAMs and not building them there's not much I can do except offer the man a lemonade and continue shooting down those bombers. ...
Except your not even offering him a lemonade. And no one has said anything about any threat out of work (non-adventuring) or doing anything to protect/help him out of work (non-adventuring) on the weekends (down time). It has all been, "while I do nothing, you do this for me while you get nothing out of it." If there were actually an exchange of favors, I agree. There is some reason to expect assasin to show up outside the adventure and I'll protect you while you are making my sword. That is completely different than what I've seen anywhere here.
... that nothing stopped me from moving to a different neighborhood or simply learning how to build sam sites myself. He chose to profit from my lack of knowledge. I chose to read the manual, do it myself while he wonders why he bothered to learn sam site building as a business if he couldn't charge his closest friends ...
Yes exactly, you could have chosen to learn the skill but you didn't. So you are saying you should get to profit (your house is worth more) from your lack of knowledge (you don't know how to re-roof).
I don't see that your example of protecting him is valid because it is down time when there is not a threat tha almost everyone is talking about.
The very little bit of crafting I could do to help out during an adventure is not the same thing. I agree that is 'cooperating during business hours.' If jimbo wants me to scribe a scroll of haste this evening while the horses are resting, I would say sure and would not charge him. I already said that.
You are saying I have to spend a huge amount of my free time doing stuff just for you because you might be more cooperative or better able to do you job at work.
...Now, nobody is saying that the crafting PC is a "crafting slave" who has to do nothing but craft, craft, craft for the party...
I think that is exactly what alot of peole are saying. He is a spell caster. He should take crafting feats. And he must make anything I want for free.
I would explain that to the party... and then hike my price up to 20% and tell them to stop crying or it goes up again. If they dont like it tell them to find another mage... at which point you can bring in another mage without the feat... and they can pay full price.And that would happen. Because not only is he being exploitative he's being a t@** about it.Or he is just putting his foot down when the party tries to exploit his downtime for their advantage.
I dont know what type of game your used to. I have played in games with people who had to have their hand in everyone elses character. Telling them what feats and skills they should take. What spells to memorize. Who should be in the lead and who should follow. THOSE are usually the characters we kick to the curb.
Not a character that uses one of his own feats to earn gold and provide a large discount to the rest of the party. You say he should be required. I say the party should be HAPPY to tip 10% because in reality he could be making a 50 percent profit off that item he gave you.
Either way its his character. And you are not the DM. You can either pay 60% or 100% for your items. If your party lets their pride, and some false sence of entitlement force you to pay 100% then fine. I hope you feel vindicated as you pass your gold over to a NPC instead of the PC.
Yup. I do, thank you. Because you'll note a couple of things.
1. No one asked him to take the feat or forced him to as you seem to imply. If they do then that's that player's problem as you noted.
2. There is no 50% profit. If he sells to an NPC merchant he gets the amount he put in. That's RAW by the way. By chargin the other players he's getting around that limitation at the expense of the rest of the group. As has been noted.
3. Nothing makes the crafter special. Nothing. It's a feat investment (and before you say skills I'd like to point out the skill in question was likely maxed long before deciding to be a crafter). The downtime he invests does not entitle him to an extra 200gp. Because I can just as easily invest that time myself.
...Now, nobody is saying that the crafting PC is a "crafting slave" who has to do nothing but craft, craft, craft for the party...I think that is exactly what alot of peole are saying. He is a spell caster. He should take crafting feats. And he must make anything I want for free.
Your misinterpretation of the argument may be one reason you have chosen the side you are on.
I look at it like from the point of view of both a DM and a player. Character A (we'll call him Chris the Crafter) is playing a caster who takes several crafting feats.
He soon discovers that if the creates something and then sells it to the local magic shop, he doesn't make any profit. Cost of crafting is 50% of the price, and he can only sell the item to the shop for 50% of price. End result, no profit.
But, he can make things for himself, saving him 50% from the normal prices that Magik-Mart charges. He notices, however, that in the course of adventuring, that his companions consistently receive more treasure, until one day the wealth of his gear matches that of his companions, and then he starts getting an equal share once again.
Now, Character B (we'll call him Petey the Paladin) comes by Chris the Crafters room one night and asks him if he would consider upgrading his shield from a +1 heavy steel shield to a +2 heavy steel shield. That's a 3,000 gp difference in the price (1,500 gp difference in crafting cost).
Chris the Crafter tells Petey the Paladin no problem, dude, I'll have this finished for you either tomorrow or the day after. But it'll cost you 1,650 gp because I'm tacking on an extra 10% for my time and effort.
Petey the Paladin is shocked. He and Chris the Crafter have adventured together for year, and he has healed Chris the Crafter, stood between him and a horde of Orcs, defended him against foes trying to coup-de-grace the caster when he was paralyzed that one time, and countless other deeds of great bravery, camaraderie, and derring-do. Shocked, I say!
Chris the Crafter can't make a profit selling a magic item in the game to anyone except his fellow party members. Yes, he is saving Petey the Paladin 1,350 gp that he would have to pay Magik-Mart to upgrade his shield, but he is trying to exceed his own wealth guidelines in the process.
Of course, a good DM will go tsk, tsk, tsk, and once again cut down Chris the Crafter's...
First of all as a DM.... how you do you as the DM "spit" up the wealth. Isnt that left up to the party after they loot and roleplay it out. You as a DM should have little to no sway as to what each party member receieves. The group as a whole... sure. You control what the party recieves but past that its up to them to divy up the loot.
As Chris the Crafter I would expect a full share of loot when my party splits up the loot. They have no idea what I have and dont have as far as gear to worth value. And IN GAME it doesnt matter either way. This isnt a United Socialist Party. Its an adventuring party.
As for the Paly... how does he know how much it cost Chris to make his shield? Does he have Craft arms and armor... or even Knowledge Arcana? If not how does he know what he is paying isnt the bare minimum.
To that point does every crafter in your entire universe charge 3000 gold on the dot for that service. If so they have one heck of a market system. What if the paly went to the local crafter and he wanted 5000 gold for that enhancement.... now he believes he is recieving a HUGE discount.
Using out of game knowledge to make sure everyone has an equal share takes away from the game. I have played a Barbarian that sold a +5 weapon to the magic mart for 2000 gold... he had zero idea what things cost and truelly didnt care. It worked out for him in the end. The Wizard that owned the shop started feeling so bad after screwing him he finally started giving my barbarian the hookup (probably didnt hurt that he saw me rip a centuares leg off and beat him to death in arena either)
What Im trying to say is the wealth by level is a fluid thing, and doesnt have to be watched like a hawk. Sure make adjustments if a party member becomes grosely overbalanced but otherwise let em figure it out themselves... its part of the fun.
As I said, if I played a crafter in that game, I likely would do the occasional item for me, perhaps a few wands of CL for the party but not sacrafice my time for outfitting the other individuals. My work with the mages guild and the quest for knowledge discussing theorems with fellow wizards at the Academy is valued higher then enchanting a ring for someone who could just as easily purchase it.
And you know what? That's fine. But don't expect the rest of the group to call on your aid when the next bad thing happens.
After all lectures on elves and dragons are much more important then ensuring the group is better equipped then the next encounter. You are a busy man with important things to do and your time is of incredible value. Why should you be bothered?
I think that is exactly what alot of peole are saying. He is a spell caster. He should take crafting feats. And he must make anything I want for free.
Actually what I'm trying to say is that if you offer your services to the group as a crafter you should not take that as a license to exploit the group when asked for the use of your feat. I've already explained that using it for personal use, or even profit from other npc's is fine.. It's when you decide that you should profit at the expense of the group that you cross a line.
... while he's installing the SAM sites, you're taking care of the house ...
I would have no problem with that. That is an exchange of favors and is perfectly equitable. We will do something for each other out side of work. Very few people are saying anything about an exchange. They are saying you do this for me. I don't do anything for you. You have to spend a huge amount of your freee time doing stuff for me because we work together. It's ok because you still have part of the weekend for yourself.
First of all as a DM.... how you do you as the DM "spit" up the wealth. Isnt that left up to the party after they loot and roleplay it out. You as a DM should have little to no sway as to what each party member receieves. The group as a whole... sure. You control what the party recieves but past that its up to them to divy up the loot.
As Chris the Crafter I would expect a full share of loot when my party splits up the loot. They have no idea what I have and dont have as far as gear to worth value. And IN GAME it doesnt matter either way. This isnt a United Socialist Party. Its an adventuring party.
As for the Paly... how does he know how much it cost Chris to make his shield? Does he have Craft arms and armor... or even Knowledge Arcana? If not how does he know what he is paying isnt the bare minimum.
To that point does every crafter in your entire universe charge 3000 gold on the dot for that service. If so they have one heck of a market system. What if the paly went to the local crafter and he wanted 5000 gold for that enhancement.... now he believes he is recieving a HUGE discount.
Using out of game knowledge to make sure everyone has an equal share takes away from the game. I have played a Barbarian that sold a +5 weapon to the magic mart for 2000 gold... he had zero idea what things cost and truelly didnt care. It worked out for him in the end. The Wizard that owned the shop started feeling so bad after screwing him he finally started giving my barbarian the hookup (probably didnt hurt that he saw me rip a centuares leg off and beat him to death in arena either)
What Im trying to say is the wealth by level is a fluid thing, and doesnt have to be watched like a hawk. Sure make adjustments if a party member becomes grosely overbalanced but otherwise let em figure it out themselves... its part of the fun.
I talk to my players out of the game. I let them know if they are getting too much stuff for their level and inform them that they can fix the problem, or they won't be getting as big a share in the future. Not all treasure is gold coins and rare gems. If Chris the Crafter has more wealth the rest of the party because he crafts his own items, then the 'random' treasure isn't going to be so random. It will consist of things he can't use, or already has.
Until the part is back on an even keel again (or near even; I don't make them account for every single copper piece).
As Chris the Crafter I would expect a full share of loot when my party splits up the loot. They have no idea what I have and dont have as far as gear to worth value.
And you would be disappointed. I don't run a game where the Chris the Crafter can have twice as many magic items as the rest because he took crafting feats. He tries to pull that BS in my group; he will suffer; he will lose wealth; and if the player doesn't like it, he can find another game.
Master Arminas
Actually what I'm trying to say is that if you offer your services to the group as a crafter you should not take that as a license to exploit the group when asked for the use of your feat.
Again - let me get this straight: cost + 10% is exploiting the other characters in your party? Really? Exploiting, as in gaining undue advantage?
So I make something for you, and save you 40% of retail price, and you're being exploited?
But it's not exploitation when you expect me to craft something for you at cost?
I am so confused...
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Yup. I do, thank you. Because you'll note a couple of things.1. No one asked him to take the feat or forced him to as you seem to imply. If they do then that's that player's problem as you noted.
2. There is no 50% profit. If he sells to an NPC merchant he gets the amount he put in. That's RAW by the way. By chargin the other players he's getting around that limitation at the expense of the rest of the group. As has been noted.
3. Nothing makes the crafter special. Nothing. It's a feat investment (and before you say skills I'd like to point out the skill in question was likely maxed long before deciding to be a crafter). The downtime he invests does not entitle him to an extra 200gp. Because I can just as easily invest that time myself.
1. No you didnt force him to take the feat... but if he does you want to force him to use it as YOU see fit. IN GAME it is still taking a significate amount of down time away from him for no pay off... and you act as if this should just be expected of him. In real life and in fantasy thats asking too much. People on this thread have pointed out example after example of why thats just not how things work. I have alot of friends who can make some very cool things. I dont expect them to make them for me for free.
2. Sure if he sells it to a magic mart. But if he wanted he could take private request around town... just as the rogue can take local "jobs" around town, or the fighter can take a local guard duty, or the bard can perform, ect. There are plenty of ways for most characters can make side gold that doesnt involve killing and looting. You seem to think a crafter's means is not his own. Tell that to the rogue next time he decides to go to the local thieves guild he has to steal something for each party member first.
3. Im not sure what your point was supposed to be here. Who cares if he is "special". Its his feat. Its his time. He should be able to do with it what he wants. YOU should have no say as to what he does with it. Same goes for any other character and the skills they use to make gold. And your right. You can decide to start taking levels in wizard, pick up the feats, and skills needed and then spend the months of downtime to make your own gear... but isnt it a bit childish to do so just to spite someone when you could simply tip someone for their hard work.
I talk to my players out of the game. I let them know if they are getting too much stuff for their level and inform them that they can fix the problem,...
Well each to his own I suppose. As a DM, I dont take an overbearing aproach. But then I am also generous with my Party wealth. My players in turn self regulate each other. But if they decide to become crafters they get a bonus. They split the wealth as they see fit.
I take a crafting feat. I spend months of in game time crafting. And I get.... absolutly nothing better then if I had simply gone to the magic mart..... um no thanks.
You are correct though. I dont think we would work well together in a game lol. I would be finding a different group. Or more then likely starting my own.
But if it works for your group no biggy. Character Wealth is far from the most important thing in Table Top.
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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Again - let me get this straight: cost + 10% is exploiting the other characters in your party? Really? Exploiting, as in gaining undue advantage?So I make something for you, and save you 40% of retail price, and you're being exploited?
But it's not exploitation when you expect me to craft something for you at cost?
I am so confused...
look at WBL, assume a part of 4. take 10% off of 3 and add them to the 4th and see how much of a difference. thats a lot of items that the crafter gets above the rest of the party.
just look at the items. if you don't have time to do that, i'll do it and post it so people can see what the 10% is.
Actually if you're using the WBL guidelines, then you shouldn't be crafting anything for anyone but yourself, as I pointed out above.
I'm never going to be happy paying another character in the group 10% for something. I will be happy to leave his self serving character behind and find someone else who's more group oriented.
This Game Is Not About Any One Character.
I can Not stress that enough.
If your sole reason for taking anything is for your own person sole use then get the heck out of my game, don't sit at my table. If you aren't in it for the group, get out. Just get out. Self serving characters don't belong in a cooperative game.
You guys who are for them stealing from the party have an entirely self centered perspective that is essentially "I took this feat and this means I get to steal your money if you expect me to use it"
The defense is that: I'm not trying to make me better. I'm trying to make /us/ better. You chose a feat just like the one I chose. To make the group better at what we do. It happens that mine lets me swing more accurately or with better effect or to use a skill better or to do whatever better while you chose a feat that makes the group work better by more efficiently choosing what magical items we have.
You opting to then charge me for it, is as wrong as the rogue using a feat to steal from the group. Because you are stealing from the group. *it is theft*. If the fighter charged you to use power attack or the barbarian charged you to use his rage, what would you say? Honestly?
You'd tell him to get the heck out. At best.
This game isn't about the crafter. Its about the group. If you want to play lets craft for profit, then you chose the wrong game. D&D is poorly designed as a "lets craft for profit" endeavor. If you want to go adventure and kill things as a group though, then this is the game for you. Quit trying to turn a profit out of making the group better at what the group is doing. That's the merchants job- not the PC's.
The fighter isn't out to beat you. The barbarian isn't your adversary. They are in this group to further the ends of the group.
Also:
If the fighter and barbarian are getting double WBL while you aren't then you need to consider using your feat for yourself.
No one that I've seen in this thread is advocating using the crafting character as some sort of personal slave. no one is asking you to never make things for yourself or even that you should swap out doing one for you and one for them. Its your character its your feat- make stuff for you.
At some point though, at least in theory, you will have the time to craft and not the money to make what you want yet. What harm in making something for someone else? Why the need to steal from that character to do it?
"Hey Fighter, I don't have anything to craft for the next couple of weeks while we're traveling, do you want me to upgrade that sword of yours? I can change it from a +X to a +Y for only Z amount of gold".
Why wouldn't you? Making him better *is making you better* by making the whole group better. Stealing from him in the process isn't the way to do it. You are weakenng him persoanally for your own gain. Its a group game. Be in it for the group, or expect the group to react poorly to your decisions.
The house analogy is a poor one anyway. If 4 guys have 4 houses, no one expects one guy to maintain 4 houses for free.
But of 4 folks are sharing 1 house and 1 guy is a plumber, its not beyond expectation that he'll keep the plumbing in check in the house without charging the other 3 guys the going professional rate for plumbers. Why? Because part of up keeping the house is, for him, doing the plumbing for the house. If he says "guys I'll fix this but I'm going to charge yuo all 45 bucks an hour" then he should expect everyone else to start nickle and diming *him* for all the things *they* do around the house for upkeep too. Mowing the lawn, trimming the hedges, doing the cooking, nailing a shingle on the roof if it gets blown off, repairing the .. well, you get the idea. You live together, you live as a group, you maintain the dwelling as a group. If one of yuo has a special skill that lets you maintain the dwelling, or upgrade the dwelling, cheaper... that doesn't mean you start charging the other guys for it.
Do you know how to cook? Do you live with folks who don't? Do you charge them to cook for them? If so- how'd that work out?
-S
The crafter obviously is rich, so its ok to ask him to pay for your stuff, or subsidize your gear.
And all parties are collectives for the greater good. All parties never divvy up treasure, it all sits in a petty cash fund. All parties are one party. Nobody ever plays differently.
Seriously though explain why a character would give up years of his life for nothing more than a gear grind and enriching a fund that never gets dispersed?
Demanding that a character give you free stuff is such meta gaming bull that I would put my foot down as a GM or player. Its on par with suiciding characters so the party can loot the body to get extra gold since the new character will have level appropriate gear.
... Your misinterpretation of the argument may be one reason you have chosen the side you are on.
There are statements of:
Any character that doesn't make my items for free will be killed by my PC, the player will get kicked from the group, you are jerk, you are [insert whatever bleeped cuss word]... You don't have the right... You are stealing from me if I don't get everything for free... You are dishonest... It doesn't really cost you anything... It doesn't matter because you still have some of your time left... If you make magic for you you get more powerful while I don't... The wizard is already plenty powerful, why should he get anything...
That really sounds to me like what the wizards wants to do is completely irrelevant to alot of people. His job since he is a wizard is to take the crafting feats and make magic items for free.
Are you really sure I misinterpreted the arguments?
I'm never going to be happy paying another character in the group 10% for something. I will be happy to leave his self serving character behind and find someone else who's more group oriented.
This Game Is Not About Any One Character.
I can Not stress that enough.
If your sole reason for taking anything is for your own person sole use then get the heck out of my game, don't sit at my table. If you aren't in it for the group, get out. Just get out. Self serving characters don't belong in a cooperative game.You guys who are for them stealing from the party have an entirely self centered perspective that is essentially "I took this feat and this means I get to steal your money if you expect me to use it"
Wow thats about as far as I got in your post. I got one thing to say.
CALM down buddy. Someone takes a feat and tries IN GAME to charge a 10 percent fee and you not only kick the party member out, you accuse them of being thieves and kick him out of your game completly.
Try and keep a little perspective here bro.
Again - let me get this straight: cost + 10% is exploiting the other characters in your party? Really? Exploiting, as in gaining undue advantage?So I make something for you, and save you 40% of retail price, and you're being exploited?
But it's not exploitation when you expect me to craft something for you at cost?
I am so confused...
If you took the craft magic item feat for the explicit purpose of making cash off of your adventuring partners, then I can see how you view it this way. And if so I would have a problem with your character because your character is a jerk.
If you took the craft magic item feat because you felt it made your character more powerful and therefore a better partner for a team to work with, then I'm not sure why you want to make money off of them.
So which is it loaba? You took the feat to make money, or you took the feat to be a better PC?
Again - let me get this straight: cost + 10% is exploiting the other characters in your party? Really? Exploiting, as in gaining undue advantage?So I make something for you, and save you 40% of retail price, and you're being exploited?
But it's not exploitation when you expect me to craft something for you at cost?
I am so confused...
look at WBL, assume a part of 4. take 10% off of 3 and add them to the 4th and see how much of a difference. thats a lot of items that the crafter gets above the rest of the party.
just look at the items. if you don't have time to do that, i'll do it and post it so people can see what the 10% is.
I actually read most of the thread and this needs to be explained, and I hope that you do go in depth. You have an excellent point! I have seen this happen in games I have been in. When the party wealth shifts to favor one character (and it is in 10% above cost in the OP) it will cause a shift favoring the character with the crafting feat in this situation. Ignore the 40% savings argument, it isn't the issue. Lets say that the spellcaster in the party makes everything for everyone. In the case of charging cost +10% the spellcaster will end up with more wealth than the party and over time can craft themselves more gear. This will skew the game.
Not to mention that once the party sees the difference it causes resentment or other negative feelings to arise.
The OP has long ago already figured out what to do about their situation, and I'm glad for that. For the remainder of the thread dragon's post is important.
I'm never going to be happy paying another character in the group 10% for something. I will be happy to leave his self serving character behind and find someone else who's more group oriented.
And likewise no one would want to play a crafter in your party, Selgard. Now you get to roll percentage and if you luck out, you can even pay full retail for whatever it is.
WBL is largely alterable by the DM. If the party gets too much from crafting he can lay off the cash given. If one guy crafts for just himself, the DM can tailor the drops to make sure the other guys get more stuff to even it out.
IMO: the benefit of the crafting feats are to let you tailor your gold into the specific items you want, rather than waiting for the DM to give it to you. Its not necessarily to give you gobs of cash more than WBL would otherwise allow.
The gear is worth what its worth. The fact that it costs you less to make it doesn't alter its worth.
Ihat is just imo though.
-S
Lets say that the spellcaster in the party makes everything for everyone.
Who has that much down-time?