Creating magical item for the party + small fee on the work = players uprorar?


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Quote:
THe math shows nothing.

It shows more then you have.

Quote:

The crafter is crafting on downtime, which becomes uptime...it's now productive.

What is the rest of the party doing to make their downtime uptime? Sitting around waiting for the crafter?

They should be out producing something, not sitting around with their thumbs up their bums. Like, adventuring. And if he wants to CHARGE them for his crafting, that's exactly what they should be doing.

His time is worth no more then theirs is.

It seems you don't understand what "downtime" means. It is a part of the campaign when the group isn't adventuring, for whatever reason. The crafter isn't forcing his group to do nothing. He is crafting WHEN the group is doing nothing. Big difference.


Aelryinth wrote:
Darkwing Duck wrote:
There should be plenty of non-adventuring applications of your crafting skills where you can make a profit from your party (for example, a permanent unseen servant to keep their house clean).

Until they equalize and normalize the crafting rules, ain't gonna happen equitably.

==Aelryinth

The crafting rules are broken. I don't deny that.


Pathfinder Companion, Maps Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber
Aelryinth wrote:

??

Everyone has a 62k gp limit/person.

THE CRAFTER, and ONLY the Crafter, can make his own items. By the ruling of SKR, this means he can spend his 62k gp, make them himself, and end up with 124k of magic items.

The Rest of the Party STILL has a 62k market value gp limit...EVEN IF THE CRAFTER MAKES THE ITEM. Unless they take the feat, they can't get 'double value'. That IS the benefit of the feat.

I think I may see where the disconnect lies.

Aelryinth, you are saying that only the crafter can calculate their WBL using the cost of the items and not retail. No problem, I agree.

You are saying that the non-crafters cannot, under any circumstances benefit from a price reduction by the crafter making their items. Hmm, what do you do in your games when the non-crafting party members ask the crafter to make them an item? Does the crafter charge full price? If so, what happens to the difference between the cost and the full price - does the crafter keep it, does it magically disappear, etc..?

Silver Crusade

Awl:

If we go by what you are saying then PCs are screwing themselves over if they buy their items at full price from a shop.


Who's Awl?

Silver Crusade

ImperatorK wrote:
Who's Awl?

Supposed to be Ael. Apple needs to stop with the slave labor, maybe their products would turn out better.

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

Hey, I'm not saying it's LOGICAL. As a matter of fact, I think it makes no sense at all.

But those are the rules.

If the PC's get stuff made at half price, the non-crafters get half the normal loot. They get no benefit from feat, and the DM adjusts WBL accordingly. The PC's get the price break on the front end, and the DM shafts their WBL to keep things even on the back end.

How the Crafter is supposed to then benefit becomes an interesting argument, as he'll get the same loot as everyone else. Basically, he shoots himself in the foot making stuff for others.

Basically, as written, ONLY the crafter can see a true benefit from Crafting.

--
And no, dude, if the Crafter is using his downtime to make stuff, it is now uptime for HIM. The rest of the party must also have the option to use downtime to become uptime, otherwise he now has access to a resource they do not.

This is ESPECIALLY if he charges for making magic items. If he wants to charge them for making magic items, the rest of the party should have an option to be making 1000 gp/day that he's crafting...without him. He's crafting, they are slaying ogres and making xp to get the money to pay him. He gets more cash, they get more cash and xp.

That's equitable, and that's fair. He's choosing to craft without them, and they are choosing to butcher and slay without him.

==Aelryinth

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

shallowsoul wrote:

Awl:

If we go by what you are saying then PCs are screwing themselves over if they buy their items at full price from a shop.

Actually, they are screwing the caster over if they DON'T buy their items at full price from a shop.

Because if they have the crafter make the stuff, he gets less loot just like they do to make up for the inflated WBL.

==Aelryinth


loaba wrote:
Shah Jahan the King of Kings wrote:
So you swing your sword, he casts his spells. In your time in a city, were you to win at a casino should you be expected to split that loot up evenly with the party?

AD is going to say that he wasn't playing against his friends when he won, therefore he can keep the additional loot.

That's not my point. My point is that the wizard here isn't crafting "against" his friends either. He's doing something in non-dungeon time and should not be expected to do it for free or split up his private earnings with the others.


Quote:
How the Crafter is supposed to then benefit becomes an interesting argument, as he'll get the same loot as everyone else. Basically, he shoots himself in the foot making stuff for others.

He can charge.

Quote:
Basically, as written, ONLY the crafter can see a true benefit from Crafting.

RAW won't stop his teammates from requesting that he crafts for them. He could always refuse, but "free crafting crowd" says it's a huge jerk move.

Quote:
And no, dude, if the Crafter is using his downtime to make stuff, it is now uptime for HIM. The rest of the party must also have the option to use downtime to become uptime, otherwise he now has access to a resource they do not.

He paid the feat, dude. If other PCs would have their own crafting feats they also could use their downtime in a productive way. But if they don't then that's their own fault, not the crafters. It's not like non-caster classes can't do something useful during downtime. There's Craft, Perform or Profession skill. There's also Master Craftsman feat which allows non-casters to take two of the more useful crafting feats. So there. Other party members have options. It's their loss if they ignore them.

Quote:
This is ESPECIALLY if he charges for making magic items. If he wants to charge them for making magic items, the rest of the party should have an option to be making 1000 gp/day that he's crafting...without him. He's crafting, they are slaying ogres and making xp to get the money to pay him. He gets more cash, they get more cash and xp.

If they go slaying ogres then it's not downtime, it's adventure time and the crafter can't craft, because he's part of the group which means that he goes with them and helps.

Quote:
That's equitable, and that's fair. He's choosing to craft without them, and they are choosing to butcher and slay without him.

No, that's not fair, because he paid a feat for the privilege to use his downtime in a productive manner. They didn't.


Pathfinder Companion, Maps Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber
Aelryinth wrote:

Hey, I'm not saying it's LOGICAL. As a matter of fact, I think it makes no sense at all.

But those are the rules.

If the PC's get stuff made at half price, the non-crafters get half the normal loot. They get no benefit from feat, and the DM adjusts WBL accordingly. The PC's get the price break on the front end, and the DM shafts their WBL to keep things even on the back end.

How the Crafter is supposed to then benefit becomes an interesting argument, as he'll get the same loot as everyone else. Basically, he shoots himself in the foot making stuff for others.

Basically, as written, ONLY the crafter can see a true benefit from Crafting.

--
And no, dude, if the Crafter is using his downtime to make stuff, it is now uptime for HIM. The rest of the party must also have the option to use downtime to become uptime, otherwise he now has access to a resource they do not.

This is ESPECIALLY if he charges for making magic items. If he wants to charge them for making magic items, the rest of the party should have an option to be making 1000 gp/day that he's crafting...without him. He's crafting, they are slaying ogres and making xp to get the money to pay him. He gets more cash, they get more cash and xp.

That's equitable, and that's fair. He's choosing to craft without them, and they are choosing to butcher and slay without him.

==Aelryinth

There is a disconnect to what you are saying now, and what you were saying a page ago.

A page ago, you seemed to be saying: that the non-crafters cannot, under any circumstances benefit from a price reduction by the crafter making their items.

Now you are saying that the crafter is shooting himself in the foot if they craft for the others.

You are also now saying that if the crafter is crafting, that the rest of the party should go out adventuring. Hmm, is that what happens in your games?

You also didn't answer what do you do in your games when the non-crafting party members ask the crafter to make them an item? Does the crafter charge full price? If so, what happens to the difference between the cost and the full price - does the crafter keep it, does it magically disappear, etc..? Or is it that the rest of the party goes adventuring while the crafter is making items for them?

You have stated that the math is in error, but when asked why, your argument was that only the crafter can benefit from the feat. But then you say that the others can benefit from the reduced price but that the crafter is shooting himself in the foot. Which is it, the non-crafter can benefit from reduced prices or they cannot?

You have stated that crafting feat rules are not logical, that they makes no sense. The math was an attempt to reconcile the FAQ, WBL and perceived power of the PCs.

I am still not seeing where you are seeing an error in the math. Could you point out the specific spots in the lines where there is an error?


The math is correct but the conclusion is erroneous because it says the craftier is behind due to lower wbl. This is erroneous in that high wealth is a BAD thing. Good items is positive, high wealth value is a negative side effect. So if the craftier has 10k wealth and the others 20k but their items are the same, the caster is ahead, not behind.


Wait, why does the crafted have only 62k WBL? Aren't they taking that 62k and making 124k worth of items?

If he makes items for the rest of the party, they all have WBL of 124k. The benefit of the feat is that you get exactly what you want, instead of relying on what's found, at the cost of time. Wouldn't crafting items for the party result in equalizing the wealth of the Party?

Considering that not all items are crafted and not all loot is directly transferable to cash at 1:1 ratio, the GM shouldn't have to mess with the groups WBL really.


Pathfinder Companion, Maps Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber
Kaisoku wrote:

Wait, why does the crafted have only 62k WBL? Aren't they taking that 62k and making 124k worth of items?

If he makes items for the rest of the party, they all have WBL of 124k. The benefit of the feat is that you get exactly what you want, instead of relying on what's found, at the cost of time. Wouldn't crafting items for the party result in equalizing the wealth of the Party?

Considering that not all items are crafted and not all loot is directly transferable to cash at 1:1 ratio, the GM shouldn't have to mess with the groups WBL really.

The crafter has only 62k WBL because the WBL calculations are based on the cost of making the magic items (half price), not the retail value (full price).

Yes, the GM would have to mess with the WBL, because the crafter would have half the WBL of the rest of the group if the crafter crafted free of charge for them.


Pathfinder Companion, Maps Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber
stringburka wrote:
The math is correct but the conclusion is erroneous because it says the craftier is behind due to lower wbl. This is erroneous in that high wealth is a BAD thing. Good items is positive, high wealth value is a negative side effect. So if the craftier has 10k wealth and the others 20k but their items are the same, the caster is ahead, not behind.

In your example of 10K and 20K, the crafter is not ahead, they are exactly equal.

Why is it erroneous? Could you go into more detail?


Yes, they are exactly equal at the moment, just like a guy with 5k xp and 5.5k xp are equal; same power right now but one is closer to get more power. Due to the lower wealth, the crafter should obtain more wealth later. This can be solved through the DM dropping more scrolls and staves and less greatswords.

But the crafting rules in respect to wbl are wonky - i dislike skrs new ruling and in fact the "you can alter wbl with crafting" ruling completely. Wbl should be a useful dm tool, and allowing items at different prices tales that away. So in my games that use regular crafting (most dont), crafting doesn't allow bypassing wbl, only easier access to magic items. Just like sleight of hand doesn't allow you to.


If the crafter sells his equipment, he nets 62k, because cost=sell price. If the Party sells their crafted items, they get 62k, because sell price = half full retail.

Wealth is how much their items are worth. I don't see how the crafter is behind.


Pathfinder Companion, Maps Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber
stringburka wrote:

Yes, they are exactly equal at the moment, just like a guy with 5k xp and 5.5k xp are equal; same power right now but one is closer to get more power. Due to the lower wealth, the crafter should obtain more wealth later. This can be solved through the DM dropping more scrolls and staves and less greatswords.

But the crafting rules in respect to wbl are wonky - i dislike skrs new ruling and in fact the "you can alter wbl with crafting" ruling completely. Wbl should be a useful dm tool, and allowing items at different prices tales that away. So in my games that use regular crafting (most dont), crafting doesn't allow bypassing wbl, only easier access to magic items. Just like sleight of hand doesn't allow you to.

I would argue that 5k XP and 5.5k XP are not equal, one is superior to the other. The 20% fee arranges things so that the GM doesn't have to modify the loot or do anything (as a lot of GMs don't change the AP at all, this can be important).

If you are not abiding by SKR's FAQ, then you are not abiding by FAQ and are houseruling. That is fine, but it isn't RAW.


Pathfinder Companion, Maps Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber
Kaisoku wrote:

If the crafter sells his equipment, he nets 62k, because cost=sell price. If the Party sells their crafted items, they get 62k, because sell price = half full retail.

Wealth is how much their items are worth. I don't see how the crafter is behind.

WBL is calculated by cost value for the crafter and by retail for the non-crafters. WBL isn't calculated by the sell price.


it's not always 20% though.
I'll do a quick math.

Lat's assume the party is composed of "n" party members.
Let's assume there is only one crafter in the party, to keep things easy.
Let's assume the value of crafted items per character is the same (that is, the crafter spent an equal amount of time on behalf of each character). Let's call this amount "a". That means "2a" is the crafted items price.
Let's call the price of non crafted items "b", so that normally "b+2a" is the actual wealth of a noncrafting character (the number to be confronted with the WBL guidelines).
SKR's FAQ tells that a crafter gets to use the item cost, not price, in WBL calculations, so his actual wealth is "b+a" rather than "b+2a".

How much should the crafter charge to equalize the wealth between noncrafters and crafters?
Let's call this amount x, so that x/a is the percentage that should be asked to keep things equal and allow the crafter to benefit from SKR's FAQ in full.
If the crafter asks the same percentage to everyone in the party, he "earns" x times the number of people in the party minus himself. Note that this earning is just to make sure the wealth is the same across the board, let's ont forget crafted items count for full price if not used by the crafter himself per the new FAQ.

crafter's wealth = noncrafter's wealth

a + b + (n-1)*x = 2a + b - x

b cancels out, let's solve for x.

(n-1)*x + x = 2a - a
n*x = a
x = a/n
x/a = 1/n

so the fee percentage, that is x/a should be equal to 1/n, with n the number of people in the party, crafter included.

If there are 2 people in the party, the fee is 50%. It means that when crafting a ring of protection +1 for his fighter friend, the wizard asks for 1500 gp: he "earns" 500 gp, the fighter "saves" 500 gp, both go ahead in wealth by 500 gp and the relative wealth remains the same.
If there are 4 people in the party, the fee is 25%. By the same example, three fighters get their ring for 1250 gp, saving 750 gp each. The crafter earns 250 gp for each crafted ring, for a total of 750 gp. Everyone goes agead in wealth by 750 gp and the relative wealth remains the same.
If there are 5 people in the party, the fee is 20%.
If there are 6 people in the party, the fee is 16.7% and so on.

Note that per crafting faq, the crafter is free to craft his own items ad cost and they count as cost for the purpose of wealth. If the wizard crafts a ring of protection +1 for himself, he spends 1000 gp to craft the ring but the expense is canceled out exactly because he gets an item worth (for him, and just for him) 1000 gp.

I hope that helps.


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I'm sorry.

It seems that the problem is not the crafter making money by crafting.
(10%). Really? Is life that bad?

The real problem is WBL.

PLayers are being penalized for playing smart.


Mistwalker wrote:
stringburka wrote:

Yes, they are exactly equal at the moment, just like a guy with 5k xp and 5.5k xp are equal; same power right now but one is closer to get more power. Due to the lower wealth, the crafter should obtain more wealth later. This can be solved through the DM dropping more scrolls and staves and less greatswords.

But the crafting rules in respect to wbl are wonky - i dislike skrs new ruling and in fact the "you can alter wbl with crafting" ruling completely. Wbl should be a useful dm tool, and allowing items at different prices tales that away. So in my games that use regular crafting (most dont), crafting doesn't allow bypassing wbl, only easier access to magic items. Just like sleight of hand doesn't allow you to.

I would argue that 5k XP and 5.5k XP are not equal, one is superior to the other. The 20% fee arranges things so that the GM doesn't have to modify the loot or do anything (as a lot of GMs don't change the AP at all, this can be important).

If you are not abiding by SKR's FAQ, then you are not abiding by FAQ and are houseruling. That is fine, but it isn't RAW.

more experience is not superior in itself unless you reach a higher level, just like low wealth with equip x isn't superior until you begin to get more xp.

And due to skr's ruling you ALWAYS have to adjust an AP if you want to follow WBL. Or rather, you always have to anyway.

And selling at more than 50% isn't RAW either. that limit can only be overruled by the dms decision, thus "in general", just like how WBL completely is a big "in general". Actually, not following SKRs ruling is not following a guideline, while selling for more than 50% is a house rule.


Pathfinder Companion, Maps Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber
stringburka wrote:

more experience is not superior in itself unless you reach a higher level, just like low wealth with equip x isn't superior until you begin to get more xp.

And due to skr's ruling you ALWAYS have to adjust an AP if you want to follow WBL. Or rather, you always have to anyway.

And selling at more than 50% isn't RAW either. that limit can only be overruled by the dms decision, thus "in general", just like how WBL completely is a big "in general". Actually, not following SKRs ruling is not following a guideline, while selling for more than 50% is a house rule.

Actually, that should have been "If you are not abiding by SKR's FAQ, then you are not abiding by RAW and are houseruling. That is fine, but it isn't RAW."

Any rule can be overruled by the GM's decision, so they didn't need to put in "in general" to state that. My interpretation is that the value can be more or less, based on dice rolls and the local situation. The average, overtime will work out to 50% value.

How does SKR's FAQ ruling require you to always adjust WBL? I only see that happening if the crafter crafts for free, or over charges on the fee, for the rest of the party.


Not following SKR ha nothing to do with the Rules As Written since he didn't comment a rule, but a rule but a guideline. Still, ice never claimed otherwise and clearly noted that in the first post on the matter.

Your way to do selling IS a house rule though. Interpret all you want - in general means "this is the baseline but there MIGHT be exceptions", not each player can choose how the rule works and call that the RAW in a rules discussion.

Heck, with that freedom of interpretation i could state that crafted clubs sell for a thousand gp and start a rant on how broken the system is. "In general 50%" means any discussion outside of your personal table has to assume 50% or we are into house rules.

House rules are fine! But dont use them as a basis of your argument outside of your table. I'm not ignoring the guideline as an argument (it was bus a side note) so dont ignore the rules as an argument and then comment on others presenting other solutions.


Mistwalker wrote:
WBL is calculated by cost value for the crafter and by retail for the non-crafters. WBL isn't calculated by the sell price.

Sorry, I'm going to have to ask for a source on this one.

SKR's ruling in the FAQ says that crafted items count as cost, not price, towards WBL.

If the crafter makes a crafted item for his party members, they count it at cost towards their WBL too, according to the FAQ.

Please explain where you are getting your conclusion regarding treating the character different, and not the items, because I haven't found anything.

Paizo Employee Senior Software Developer

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The advice forum isn't really meant for extended discussion of whatever it is you think you're arguing about in here, and after 2,074 posts I think any actual advice has long ago been lost in the noise. If anybody has any actual requests for advice feel free to start a new thread.

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