@ Sel - sure the Wizard gets something out of making items for the group - money! They get a useful item that they want, when they want it and the Wizard gets paid.
but here's where real life and fantasy differ. your character doesn't really get put to the end of their rope by crafting....
Yeah, your character doesn't actually bleed or whatever else. But saying that there isn't actual work involved in crafting is pretty metagaming.
eleclipse wrote:
So, i have a crafting wizard and we're playing kingmaker, we just hitted lvl 5 and started building the kingdom.
I'm a LN mage follower of Abadar, the other party member are a paladin a LG oracle, a NG inquisitor and a N druid.
I decided to add a 10% fee on the creation cost when crafting item for the party (this mean that a belt of +2 str will cost them 2200 instead of 2000, which is still a lot better than 4000); this caused an unexpected reaction on the other players (not pg, players).
They now pretty much consider me to be a jerk, just suggesting this we're arrived to the point of them preferring to buy the items at full price and they said me this is not right since the don't make me pay for cure, tanking ecc ecc.
This was totally unexpected by this group since they are always very mature, am i missing something and being "that guy" without knowing? Is this some kind of delicate argument in the average group?
Some advice on how to deal with this situation will be most appreciated! :)
In the party I am running through Kingmaker, the crafters charge more, usually splitting the savings between the crafter and the buyer. Our group is more accepting of this idea, because this sort of behavior has precedent within the group of players. As the DM, I don't really care.
The primary crafter (of several) is a cleric of Nethys who acts more like a cleric of Abadar - I have accused him in jest of role-playing his MBA rather than his character. One significant point is actually the cost - since this is an up-front charge, the end user should certainly be putting up the required $$$ if he expects the item at a zero mark-up. If you play the weather effects (base it on Winnipeg), there certainly is a lot of downtime for crafting.
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I have an old book from "graphic design college" that goes on at length why doing projects for your friends, much less for free, is a TERRIBLE idea. In short, it's precisely because of your close relationship they they, intentionally or not, are more apt to abuse your services than complete strangers (the are simply more comfortable with asking for more, for less).
This thread, and the sheer number of people in it that actively oppose my viewpoint, is proof enough that this is indeed the case. There are SO MANY people here who don't seem to have any trouble at all with asking their close friends to work for them, for 8 hours a day, every day, for months (that, or they simply don't realize how much investment they are really asking for).
Why don't more people see just how obscenely wrong that is?
*scratches my head* *reads the posts of the thread again* *reads your post*
uhhm. Actually, we're not advocating that at all?
Myself, I'm an attorney. I'm the poster child of knowing how stupid it is to do work for friends- free or otherwise really. Generally its a bad idea. No one ever thinks you charged them little enough, and no one realizes just how much work it is you are really doing.
But, as a graphic designer, (or anyone with a skill) if you go into business with others where your skill is in use, its probably expected that you use it. And that you also get paid for it, as part of getting paid for the business venture.
No one has suggested- or I certainly haven't suggested- that the wizard be tied down and made to work for free.
I'm suggesting- actually flat out saying that the payment a wizard receives is in how well the group proceeds with their help rather than without, as opposed to monetary renumeration for that work.
You say: Omg working for free is evil!"
I say : You are right.. but there's more than one way to get paid. And going into business with several other people and using your skillset to make sure the business works as well as possible doesn't entail you getting paid *extra* for doing your part in making the business work.
I totally agree that getting a wizard and binding them hand and foot in the basement to be your personal crafting slave is evil as hell and should not be allowed.
I also promote however that a crafter of any stripe who is a full contributing member of a party should expect to also craft for that party when they have time and when the funds are available, when the opportunity arises. Not 24/7. Not without break. But when there is time available for it to be done. Why? Because it makes the party stronger, better, faster. Yanno, the party. that group of folks the crafter is with trying to save the world. (or whatever). Not some random bunch of strangers, but the friends and comrades in arms of said crafter.
Gilfalas:
if my buddy was a contractor and I asked him to make me a building then I'd expect him to bill me fully.
If I instead went into business with him for the purpose of buying land, building buildings, promoting them and then selling them- or if I went into the business with him of buying houses, renovating them and then finding buyers, then I'd expect him to split the profits with me rather than charging me for his services in addition to splitting the profits with me.
Crafters are already getting a split of the profits. They are also getting the benefit of the expertise and ability of every single other person in the party for everything they do. They do not pay for that benefit. When they craft for the group, they are *already* getting paid to do it, and also reap the future benefits.
They should no more charge extra for it than the other party members should start charging for the things -they- bring to the table.
-S
The "DM upping the difficulty" is just metagaming.
I expect the DM to keep the difficulty .. well.. difficult. if he stops, whats the point?
if i'm 10th level and dont' want a challenge I'll go clear out a goblin den or something.
But when the challenge goes up, so do the bragging rights. No one ever brags about taking down the goblins 15 CR below them. They brag about taking down the dragon 2 CR above them!
The crafters help make that possible. And they get their share of the dragon's hoard, just like everyone else.
-S
...but if they aren't doing the extra work then they really have no business asking for free crafting.
I don't disagree with this. The point isn't something for nothing. its something in exchange for other things. If the crafter really /is/ being made to do everything else And craft then he's just getting screwed. And not in the happy fun way, either.
-S
The difference between crafting and healing is GP doesn't fall from the Clerics *** every time he heals. Crafting, on the other hand, generates wealth. I'll say it again just to make sure every one heard it;CRAFTING GENERATES WEALTH!
Two can play at that game.
Healing generates wealth. By preventing the players from dying, that played doesn't have to pay 1000gp in diamond dust to get resurrected. Wouldn't even be able to craft if you couldn't adventure for the money to buy those materials.
/b*#%&~&& mode off
Crafting doesn't generate wealth, you CANNOT sell items for more then you paid to make them. This means the party can buy more for less, but they cannot make a self sustaining gold farm from crafting. This is why crafting does not GENERATE wealth. In order for it to be 'generating' the party must put 1gp in and get 2gp out, which they don't.
If PCs demand free crafting, then they are STEALING wealth from their teammates.
Crafters have to sell their items at half price to NPCs, why should the crafter get to sell at a higher price to PCs? That's called taking advantage of your friends, AKA stealing.
Fred demands that Wally be his craft b**** or face the consequences.
What consequences? Nice try, that's a LOAD of hot air. Any party member threatening other players is going to get booted from the game. The only person who will be terrified is Fred.
Wally now has 1500gp and Fred has 3000gp sword. Net profit: Wally, 0gp. Fred, 1500gp.
Fred always gives Wally a fair share of loot they find adventuring, but this time he demands all the loot.
Fred doesn't have a sword worth 3000gp, he has a sword worth 1500gp, remember he can only sell at half price, unlike the crafter.
Besides which, Wally could still make a 3000gp item just the same and then they are both equal.
Either way, they will both have the same amount of "gold" as if the party equally distributed loot.
By charging for crafting, the crafter is inflating his own WBL.
Why don't more people see just how obscenely wrong that is?
No, no I don't, because the premise is false.
The reverse is actually accurate.
If you are a crafter and make a Ring of Jumping, the most you can sell it for on 'The (NPC) Market' is 1250gp, 50% of it's retail price. No ifs or buts... just 1250gp. That's it. Period.
You can make 100 of the things, and 1250 it is.
Yet you guys are arguing that charging the party 1250+(2500x10%)= 1500 is ok. You just took your fellow party member for 250gp more than what you would have been given for it 'on the market'.
So what you are really saying is that you are farming your friends for profit.
You aren't 'giving work away free', that's what you do for everyone else - its only your friends that have to pay extra.
The "DM upping the difficulty" is just metagaming.
I expect the DM to keep the difficulty .. well.. difficult. if he stops, whats the point?
if i'm 10th level and dont' want a challenge I'll go clear out a goblin den or something.
But when the challenge goes up, so do the bragging rights. No one ever brags about taking down the goblins 15 CR below them. They brag about taking down the dragon 2 CR above them!
The crafters help make that possible. And they get their share of the dragon's hoard, just like everyone else.
-S
*shrug* Knowing the crafting cost of an item is metagaming too so that isn't really applicable. But I suppose we both agree on the terms it's just that I tend to hear the "crafter is a jerk make me my items you wretch" side of the argument more than the "we should all put in an equal share of downtime effort" side.
EDIT: Also I suppose it's dependent on the whole idea in our group where our downtime is actually downtime. I mean we go whoring about some of us take drugs some of us try to set up our own personal temples or organizations and gamble or try to sell our influence to corrupt politicians. None of us really does party stuff when we have free time.
I disagree that knowing the cost is metagaming.
PC's can find out for a fact how much an item is worth to buy.
They can also find out how much it is to sell.
While the rules to present some oddities (such as this) they also present a *hard* number for each item. Its worth. it isn't metagaming- its the actual hard worth for the item in the game. Absent the DM houseruling it, a sword +1 is always worth the exact same amount to buy, and the exact same amount to sell. Period.
There is no reason for that knowledge to be metagaming- especially for adventurers who are literally in the business of procuring and selling such items.
Therefore the PC would also know that they were being charged a sur charge.
"hey, i can only sell that widget for 1k, and I can buy it for 2k. How come you are charging 1100?" "because I can. Youc an either pay me the 100 or you can go pay that guy 2k. Sucks to be you".
If your DM chooses to alter the game world for it to be other wise (which really isn't a bad idea) its still a house rule.. and we really aren't discussing the pro's and con's of DM's market house rules here. (not to sound snarky. but really, that isn't the point of this particular thread)
In the game, prices are the prices. There's no reason PC's don't know them.
What you do with your downtime is definately an issue. if everyone always screws around with their downtime and one guy is expected to go work hard instead of having leisure time, that should definately work into the equation. Suddenly dude isn't doing group things on group time, he's working for guy X when he could be relaxing. That changes things.
-S
And if your friend buy items on the NPC market they can only ever buy at 100% of retail price which they can only reduce by buying from you so if they get their items at any less than retail they are farming you for profit. Funny how that works too.Why don't more people see just how obscenely wrong that is?No, no I don't, because the premise is false.
The reverse is actually accurate.
If you are a crafter and make a Ring of Jumping, the most you can sell it for on 'The (NPC) Market' is 1250gp, 50% of it's retail price. No ifs or buts... just 1250gp. That's it. Period.
You can make 100 of the things, and 1250 it is.
Yet you guys are arguing that charging the party 1250+(2500x10%)= 1500 is ok. You just took your fellow party member for 250gp more than what you would have been given for it 'on the market'.
So what you are really saying is that you are farming your friends for profit.
You aren't 'giving work away free', that's what you do for everyone else - its only your friends that have to pay extra.
Of course, the crafter is using the entire group for profit anyway. just like they are him. Its at least part of the game- going out, killing, looting, making profit.. yanno- what the adventurers are out there -doing-. for some reason people think that one guy deciding a thing he can do is making magical items entitles him to charge everyone else for it, while the guys who choose to do the other useful things for the group can't, don't, won't, or shouldn't.
Myself, I'd just leave the group if one party insisted on stealing from the others.
But the thief certainly could have no possible objection to the entire party deciding charging for feat and ability use was a good idea and to begin doing so immediately.
"what do you mean you want 20 gold to use power attack!"
"man that nearly killed me. wait- you want HOW MUCH to heal me up? holy [censored]!".
Whats good for the crafter is good for the rest of the mercenaries, right? If he can start tacking on freebies so can they. And they should, too.
-S
Its been alot of fun guys, seriously. I've really enjoyed the discussion.
At this point though, both sides are just repeating what's already been said over and over again. Doesn't look like either is gonna pursuade the other.
Whatever is fun for your group- keep it up. Bever let someone on the boards tell you otherwise. If your group is having fun, then you've found The Right way to do it for your group.
And thats the important part.
I'll probably check this again in the morning but unless something new pops up I'll liekly not post in it again :)
Good luck to you all, and thanks again for the solid conversation.
-S
If the adventure is a desperate battle to save all existence, then no charging, there's more important stuff going on. Everybody works, nobody slacks, the party and world are more important than an individual.
If it's adventuring for fun and profit, then they're a group of professionals that may or may not even like each other. When they're off the clock there's no ticking timer, nothing but their own personal roleplay/agendas.
Cash surcharges are not the only way to be compensated for time. If everybody is doing their part to help their hive/collective, then the crafter's not doing anything special. If they volunteer equivalent noncash services in trade, then that's good. Spending time off the clock with no compensation, bad times.
I think there's a lot of assumptions being made about the nature of "most" games, when this thread reinforces that there are myriad group dynamics and game styles.
"hey, i can only sell that widget for 1k, and I can buy it for 2k. How come you are charging 1100?" "because I can. Youc an either pay me the 100 or you can go pay that guy 2k. Sucks to be you".
This.
Very much this.
The crafters here know the only way they can make a penny is by surcharging the party members, so they go ahead and do it and then act like its all a big favour and they are being 'stolen' from.
It's just velvet lined extortion of their own party, to charge the party MORE than what they could have got on the open market, with the party essentially being blackmailed into the higher cost because it's 'cheaper' than elsewhere. Loansharking 101.
And if your friend buy items on the NPC market they can only ever buy at 100% of retail price which they can only reduce by buying from you so if they get their items at any less than retail they are farming you for profit. Funny how that works too.Why don't more people see just how obscenely wrong that is?No, no I don't, because the premise is false.
The reverse is actually accurate.
If you are a crafter and make a Ring of Jumping, the most you can sell it for on 'The (NPC) Market' is 1250gp, 50% of it's retail price. No ifs or buts... just 1250gp. That's it. Period.
You can make 100 of the things, and 1250 it is.
Yet you guys are arguing that charging the party 1250+(2500x10%)= 1500 is ok. You just took your fellow party member for 250gp more than what you would have been given for it 'on the market'.
So what you are really saying is that you are farming your friends for profit.
You aren't 'giving work away free', that's what you do for everyone else - its only your friends that have to pay extra.
Hell no they aren't. The crafter provides a free service yes, but they get NO money from the crafter. They get the option to get their gear cheaper (which is frankly, beneficial to the whole party, including the crafter). The ONLY person getting ANY money in any of these situations is the crafter if he surcharges the party.
Asking for a surcharge is quite clearly farming the party for gold, asking for a FAVOR from the crafter to use his skill to lower the price of items is NOT farming gold from the crafter.
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A bit too many posts to read, I just skimmed, so I apologize for saying anything already said.
I do not think that charging something as small as 10% is an issue. I think up to 20% would be fine before I'd think I would even say anything.
I just now took a craft feat on a character for the first time, and though we might not play that game again because of unrelated reasons, I've been trying to figure out how I'd do it. I decided the most fair way would be to take a small fee out of the party loot fund, maybe based on time.
I want to respond to a few points against that, under the assumption the wizard in question spreads his creations around to everyone, including himself:
1) Charging for a crafting feat is synonymous with charging for any other feat or ability (people have referenced charging per cure spell).
This simply isn't true. Mathematically speaking, even if the crafter charged 99% of the market cost, then the party is still benefiting as a whole, though obviously not very much. Pricing your items for party members at 60% is a decent boost to the party's power.
Plus, think about the players. Fighter spends a feat on Power Attack or Weapon Focus or whatever, he gets to feel that in combat, hitting more often. The party might get a similar good feeling when he does his job well because of the feat, but it's not the same thing. A crafting feat offers access to items that they couldn't otherwise afford to the entire party. Those items will become part of that other character. If the crafter instead chose a metamagic feat or Spell Penetration, then it reverts back to the situation with the fighter, where the feeling of the use of the feat is mostly contained within the user.
That might not be the best worded, but what can you do?
2) The crafter could only sell his wares to NPCs at the same it costs to make it, so by selling it for more, he is robbing the players.
This is an issue with the craft rules, really. It would be broken to allow players to sell crafted items, created at half cost, for more than that, because that's basically infinite money (which, given, isn't actually that hard to do anyway). It makes little sense to think that an NPC can create an item and charge 2000g, but a PC can create the same item and only charge 1000g.
However, that's how it works. But that doesn't mean it's fair for the players to exploit this silly yet necessary rule. It's metagaming, to be entirely honest.
3) The party doing chores and favors for the crafter is much more acceptable than having to actually pay gold for it.
I don't really understand this one. At all. Time is money, and that is incredibly true in a game. I'm surprised people even said this. I can spend X amount of time doing whatever for the crafter, or I can spend the same amount of time earning money or whatever. There's not really a difference.
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Wow. •Every• PC invests in the team. The crafter of course is entitled to charge, but so too can the face negotiate his own rewards, exclusive of the party. The fighter can choose to intercept the baddie trading his investment in armor, weapons and hit points to keep the wizard safe. The cleric raised his charisma to get extra channels, again an investment. My point is that directly profiting from PCa is simply bad form.
GNOME
Exactly so. This nonsense about 'I paid with a feat to craft' is the same as a fighter paying with a feat to get weapon focus, which benefits the party every combat.
Two PC's sitting in a drow dungeon awaiting sacrafice:
Wizard: "That drow got his hand-crossbow shot off and poisoned me before we could teleport! Why didn't you stop him?"
Fighter: "Don't blame me. He was too far way. And you're the greedy *%&$* that decided not to craft the boots of speed I asked for back on the surface because I was short your bonus fee."
Yeah...
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Working for friends... I charge full price, I pay full price. If it's work, then I keep it totally professional to avoid all this arguing. As a provider I am fully recompensed for my efforts. As a client I get the quality product and not cast offs. Any changes are negotiated before the transaction. I have a lot of long term friends.
Working with friends... When everyone puts in equal time and equal money, things run pretty smooth. If one person contributes more to the group, they should be compensated. Not recognising everyone's contributions makes people unhappy. The messier this gets as different people throw in different time and resources, the more likely things will go pear shaped. Any changes should be negotiated before the transaction.
Gaming- what would my character do?
If the party rogue splits their gambling winnings with the party, if the party noble shares their inheritance and the party cleric doesn't charge the diamond dust for the raise dead, you better be crafting for free.
But if the fighter is on a retainer, the wizard is charging for spells and the cleric likes 'donations', you're mad not to charge as much as the market will bear.
Or you could go by alignment-
LG- Of course I'll make that item for you. Heck, go adventuring without me so I have more time.
NG- Of course I'll make that item for you. You will use it only for good, right?
CG- Of course I'll make that item for you. But only because you bought me that drink.
LN- Of course I'll make that item for you. For only cost price plus 50%.
NN- Of course I'll make that item for you. The more you pay, the sooner I can do it.
CN- I'll get round to it soon, honest. Can I have another advance?
LE- Of course I'll make that item for you. For only cost price plus 90%.
NE- No.
CE- Of course I'll make that item for you. Heck, go adventuring without me so I have more time.
In summary- work it out with the players. Justify it with the characters. Game. Have fun.
Quite frankly your time is valuable, by all means charge for it and if they don't like it they can go to your competition.
There's that "usually" again. Again, the number of posts on this thread alone seems to disprove that. Even the most cooperative teams I've heard of before now don't put more than a quarter of the wealth into a group fund.
And of course there's the inflammatory language. Milking the party for gold, instead of asking for compensation for time spent. Petty gold snatching, instead of maintaining proper boundries.
When I was playing a save the world style campaign, we were up eachother's orifaces all the time. Once the seriousness of the situation became obvious we were always sharing inn rooms, no personal time off, all downtime stayed focused on the campaign, nobody did anything without permission/debate from the rest of the party.
In Kingmaker you're strangers thrown together by Brevoyan charter who become major figures in the government due to founding father status. As the most elite adventuring force in the area, you're all expected to pull it together and work as a team to deal with threats that the kingdom otherwise cannot handle. Extensive downtime, with only a week of every month as a minimum spent dealing with the campaign (keeping the government working and kingdom expanding). You could be political enemies or business rivals. Expensive gifts between government officials could be seen as cronyism and cause Unrest points. Either way, there's a clear divide between adventure time and the other half or more of the year.
All this talk of 'compensation'.
Does the Wizard compensate his buddies for making them endure downtime while he makes his own gear?
Everyone has their job, and the crafter has his, the compensation is what they get later when they go hunting the bad guys.
Simply put, the Wizard can't make a single copper off the open market, so these wizards are trying to make the money off their fellow players.
He's getting 'compensated' on several levels by doing so, and then claiming hes doing them a favour.
Yeah, the same way Tony Soprano does 'favours'.
Glad they aren't at my table.
I'm done here too - no new arguments coming to the discussion.
I presume that these items would be used in future adventures - therefore when they are used you will be benefitting from the increased power of all the PCs. In other words, when these items are used in encounters and teh whole group benefits from it, you will benefit too - that should be taken into consideration.
I play a NG cleric of sarenrae and I'm the only player with crafting feats. I have enabled the fighter to do insane stunts and stay alive time after time after time and when the fire elemental bloodline sorcerer pissed off all those trolls, I'm the reason he's still in the group six levels later. So when I charge 75% of market price, they say 'Thank you for the discount.' Expecting your crafter to craft essentially for free is just greedy.
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I find it interesting that the most common rebuttal about charging for crafting is the idea that then the fighter should charge for stopping the Ogre, and the cleric should charge for healing...well the crafting PC also does their part in combat also. Those things are a wash. In fact it is still more in the crafting PC's favour because they most likely will have created many of the items that the party is using to do those things.
The crafting PC has a function inside of, and because of crafting outside of, combat. The fighter doesn't, nor the non crafting cleric (or insert other caster). To try and equate actions in combat to ones out of combat is wrongful.
The PCs benefiting from the crafting PCs work can still get a significant boost in gear due to the fact that they are almost doubling the amount of gear they can get.
Usually only able to get a +1 weapon(2k)? Well the crafting PC has crafted you a +1 weapon (1100) AND a +1 armour (550) for a lesser price, assuming 10% fee. This allows the fighter to go buy some healing potions on his own, or the cleric to go get some scrolls.
TO THE OP: I am not sure if you are reading but I urge you against many other posters advice. If you choose to not charge for crafting do not apologize for wanting to. You did nothing wrong. You did not go aground on some imaginary rule of thumb.
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crafted items count as 1/2 cost when it comes to WBL according to the FAQ, so i'm just reminding people what this looks like for someone charging 10%. it severely unbalances the party where the rest of the party has 2/3 the wealth of the crafter.
party without a crafter level 13 140k
party with a crafter wealth = 140k
party wealth where crafter takes 10% = 126k
crafter wealth where crafter takes 10% = 182k assuming a party of 4
Yet each other PC does not have 126k of gear...they have 266k. The crafting PC basically doubled their WBL.
And they want to complain about it? I don't get it.
I play a NG cleric of sarenrae and I'm the only player with crafting feats. I have enabled the fighter to do insane stunts and stay alive time after time after time and when the fire elemental bloodline sorcerer pissed off all those trolls, I'm the reason he's still in the group six levels later. So when I charge 75% of market price, they say 'Thank you for the discount.' Expecting your crafter to craft essentially for free is just greedy.
Its disrespectful is what it is.
crafted items count as 1/2 cost when it comes to WBL according to the FAQ, so i'm just reminding people what this looks like for someone charging 10%. it severely unbalances the party where the rest of the party has 2/3 the wealth of the crafter.
party without a crafter level 13 140k
party with a crafter wealth = 140k
party wealth where crafter takes 10% = 126k
crafter wealth where crafter takes 10% = 182k assuming a party of 4Yet each other PC does not have 126k of gear...they have 266k. The crafting PC basically doubled their WBL.
And they want to complain about it? I don't get it.
I believe it might be the whole "and one player more than doubled their won wealth at the groups expense" that's the real hang up. Even if the crafter charged only 90% of the market value people are still benefiting. It's that in doing so they allowed one player to bypass good sense and get even more crap.
To me it sounds like the solution to every profiteer's problem comes down to decent roleplaying and division of labor.
Do you not want to waste a bunch of feat slots on craft feats? Fine, discuss with your group, one guy can get craft wand, one guy can get craft magic arms and armor, etc. etc.
Do you feel like you have to sit down and build all the crap while the party goes out and well, parties? Discuss it in character. If you get browbeaten refuse your services. You're not a slave and no one can force you to craft.
I can understand an out of game contract to keep things friendly, but in the game world, there is ABSOLUTELY NO REASON the wizard shouldn't charge the same amount as any other wizard, even outright guffawing at anyone who dares impinge upon his livelyhood until they slink away in rightful shame. For other players to basically say "you will do this, and you will do it without reward" makes them BULLIES in EVERY SENSE OF THE WORD.
I'd drop out of a group like that without a moment's hesitation. You should too.
Oh noes! Not a group without Ravingdork! :D
One thing I don't get in all those discussions whether charging your party or not is acceptable:
Time
What are the other party members doing while the crafter is pouring his hours into crafting? The survivalst could go hunting to earn money, the entertainer could earn money for performing, the thief will most likely be pilfering pockets, the fighter might be doing some paid work for the local cityguard, the cleric might be out charging rich merchants or nobles for healing/curing...
> Are the other party members not out earning money, while the crafter does his crafting? If the DM is fair he'll make sure that, in the end, everybody earned the same amount of money when all crafting/hunting/stealing/mercenary/curing is done.
"soft" PvP
Does the player of the crafter get upset when he learns that the party rogue has been sleight-of-handing very expensive gems to sell for his personal roguish pleasures? If the crafter is allowed to earn more, so should the other characters through their means.
Or worse: is the rogue allowed to steal the profit back from the crafter?
> In the end it comes down to whether you allow soft-PvP in your group. But that usually also impacts the character's alignment. A crafter counting beans should slide towards lawful, a thief stealing from groupmates should slide towards chaotic. Being strongly lawful or chaotic can have meaningful impact in dealing with NPCs especially those who have means to detect alignments. ;-)
TO THE OP: I am not sure if you are reading but I urge you against many other posters advice. If you choose to not charge for crafting do not apologize for wanting to. You did nothing wrong. You did not go aground on some imaginary rule of thumb.
Yep i still read, even if i'm a little deluded by the drop of quality of the thread after a very good start.
Thanks for your advice and don't worry, i didn't apologize in any way.
Since i'm here i'll take the occasion to post my last 2 cents on the latest part of this thread.
1-I'm surprised by reaction of some people, seeing them talking one can think i'm trying to rape their mother's or something similar, i will be offendend by some of them basically labelling me a jerk and even worse in direct or non direct way, but the fact that this kind of people take a certain position in the argoument just prove my point, i don't wont people like that to agree with me. I think that these people are bad players and bad dms.
2-Adamantine i'm still waiting your answer to my (long) post, but i doubt it'll ever come in a meanigful way
3-Till now nobody has posted a single rational reasion against the 10% but one. The fact that this unbalance the party wealth, it's true, it's totally true and it was one of the factor that made me take my decision; i think that this aspect could have been designed better.
But i want to add a thing, player and pc have the same rights but they are not equal. It's not right to punish someone for finding a way to have more money or power (bouded by good sense of course, everthing can be exagerated) and reward player to do notthing but to wait for the next loot.
4-Just because you always play a party where the members never disagree with each others and never have interest outside the group's one that doesn't mean this it the only way to play, in fact is a rather boring ad unpersonal way of play in my opinion. And just because your friends are ok with crafting at 0 cost (notthing wrong here) this doesn't mean that anyone have to agree with it, in fact you are discouraging all but the totally-altriustic-pious-saint player to be a crafter. The fact that you are ok with them not crafting and not ok with the crafting, make you save money but having some share of it is just hypocrital as a pg and as a player.
As a final tought, as someone said to me:
-Always talk about this before doing the pg
-Always talk yo your friends, you'll solve any problem talking, if they don't want to talk but just obly senselesly you to do things, quit the group.
I disagree,
If you craft for free the person you're crafting for, party member or not, is gaining all the benefit while you gain nothing and you paid a feat to do it. Sure the party is 50% stonger but the crafting character is 25% weaker. To give an example, a wizard who spends his valuable down time crafting for another player can't craft for themselves. So while the fighter might be getting a good sword the wizard is left paying full price to make up the shortage they have in scrolls and potions.
So if the wizard were to charge, 50% it is win win for both party members. One gets a magic item 25% off and the other gains 25% to make up for the loss of time when they could craft for themselves. That way the cafter could buy items they need at full price with the profit. The party is better off this way.
The alternative is the wizard doesn't craft all for other players and that just does the opposite.
Or you could craft for yourself, craft for others, and still come out jsut fine.
And you know what? All the profiteer's are working off the assumption that one character has all the crafting feats. Reality wise I've found that once crafting starts you get most if not all the group taking one feat. And why not? That shares the load of time and feat investment.
Nothing makes the crafter special. Whether I buy the +1 longsword from you or craft it for myself it's still a +1 longsword. The only difference is who invested the two days to do it. And if those two days are worth 200 some odd gold to you then you can keep the money and I'll spend only eight hours a day drinking and wenching as opposed to my customary 16. :D
Depends the GM, if you are allowed to craft for everyone they no problem. Any game I've played you have a bit of down time, enough time to craft maybe 1 item depending on how long it will take you.
Like currently I have melee character that wants a +2 sword. I don't have enough to buy it as I only just over 6000 gold. The wizard in the group can craft me a sword but he want to craft a Amulet of Natural armor +2 and he has 6000 gold too. In the game we have enough time to craft 1 item. Both items are available at full price in the city. So only 1 of can get an item if he doesn't charge me extra but by charging me 50% more he gets 2000 gp to add to his total allowing him to buy the amulet and I get the sword. It's win win. Ideally if we had time for the wizard to craft both this wouldn't even be an issue because we are just looking at what we need to how much it costs. If we got both our items for half price no big deal but we can't so my paying the wizard just makes sense here.
> Are the other party members not out earning money, while the crafter does his crafting? If the DM is fair he'll make sure that, in the end, everybody earned the same amount of money when all crafting/hunting/stealing/mercenary/curing is done.
Often? No. Keep in mind generally speaking regular jobs pay incredibly little compared to adventuring.
Let's say a crafter charged a "reasonable" amount of 5%. In 8 hours he'll make around 50gold.
So how much will the others make?
Well the bard with his performance will make at most 18 gold that day. At most. This is assuming a DC30 perform.
The survivalist may or may not be better off depending on the gm. Generally speaking though survival only manages to cover food.
The thief, same as above. But he gets the added risk of getting caught and getting the group in trouble.
The best bet is likely the cleric. However he suffers from the patronage problem. Wherein his wealthy patron will expect him on call at all times. Which doesn't work for an adventurer.
So with the potential of incredible risk, high dc's or simply spending weeks worth of work we can match the crafters demand for 8 hours of his time. :)
Of course we could go adventuring. Someone slap the wizard up from his scroll making we've got goblins to murder.
Like currently I have melee character that wants a +2 sword. I don't have enough to buy it as I only just over 6000 gold. The wizard in the group can craft me a sword but he want to craft a Amulet of Natural armor +2 and he has 6000 gold too. In the game we have enough time to craft 1 item. Both items are available at full price in the city. So only 1 of can get an item if he doesn't charge me extra but by charging me 50% more he gets 2000 gp to add to his total allowing him to buy the amulet and I get the sword. It's win win. Ideally if we had time for the wizard to craft both this wouldn't even be an issue because we are just looking at what we need to how much it costs. If we got both our items for half price no big deal but we can't so my paying the wizard just makes sense here.
It makes sense only in this scenario where the wizard has taken all the craft feats, you have time for one item, and neither can wait.
And in the end the wizard still is not profiting. He doesn't get "extra" money from it or end up more powerful.
If we flipped the scenario would the wizard have given some gold to you if he only wanted to craft his amulet and you buy the sword? It sounds absurd.
If more than one person took craft feats (let's say the wizard took craft wondrous item adn the other arms and armor) then everyone would get there stuff crafted since you can do it all at once.
It's also been pointed out its possible to craft while adventuring, it just takes way longer. So maybe you decide between the two of you what's more important to the group right at this moment and go from there.
Since i'm here i'll take the occasion to post my last 2 cents on the latest part of this thread.
1-I'm surprised by reaction of some people, seeing them talking one can think i'm trying to rape their mother's or something similar, i will be offendend by some of them basically labelling me a jerk and even worse in direct or non direct way, but the fact that this kind of people take a certain position in the argoument just prove my point, i don't wont people like that to agree with me. I think that these people are bad players and bad dms.
There is a difference between your character being a jerk and you being one. I, personally, did not mean to imply that you are a jerk. Your character definately is, however (in my opinion).
3-Till now nobody has posted a single rational reasion against the 10% but one. The fact that this unbalance the party wealth, it's true, it's totally true and it was one of the factor that made me take my decision; i think that this aspect could have been designed better.
But i want to add a thing, player and pc have the same rights but they are not equal. It's not right to punish someone for finding a way to have more money or power (bouded by good sense of course, everthing can be exagerated) and reward player to do notthing but to wait for the next loot.
The unbalance of party wealth is the major concern here. Ask youself this: if your wizard couldn't craft, and you have a ring of protection +1, a +1 dagger, and a feather token, while your buddy the fighter of the same level was decked out in chain mail +3, a +2 flaming longsword, a cloak of resistance +2, a belt of physical perfection +2, a ring of protection +2, and boots of speed; would you be a little upset at the imbalance of wealth?
There should be a disconnect between wealth that can spent on magic items and equipment (your wealth-by-level) and in-game wealth (such as your Wiz opening a chain of new and unique Magik-Marts across the kingdom), but there isn't in the rules as written.
Now, I have had players who wanted to do fun, crazy, zany things. Heck, they even made money on them. Dante was a low-level (5th) wizard in a 3.0 game I ran a while back. He was a professional chef. He spent one of his spells on a unique cantrip he designed called spice: the only thing the spell did was make food taste good.
He took his share of the party loot and he opened a resturant in the city the game was based in. It took off. He made lots of money, but that money didn't matter for his magic items and gear. It was fluff, nothing more, nothing less. I even let him buy a complete set of pots, pans, and cutlery made out of adamantine for his resturant (and they stayed in the resturant)!
The adamantine cleaver that was his favorite weapon, on the other hand, he paid for out of his wealth-by-level, so that his adventuring gear was on par with his fellow party members.
Look, I'm not going to convince any of you who don't see that there is anything wrong here; I'm certainly not going to convince Sean K. Reynold's that his comment about crafting feats and character wealth is completely flawed reasoning. In your game, play it how you want. In my game, this stuff doesn't fly.
Master Arminas
Like currently I have melee character that wants a +2 sword. I don't have enough to buy it as I only just over 6000 gold. The wizard in the group can craft me a sword but he want to craft a Amulet of Natural armor +2 and he has 6000 gold too. In the game we have enough time to craft 1 item. Both items are available at full price in the city. So only 1 of can get an item if he doesn't charge me extra but by charging me 50% more he gets 2000 gp to add to his total allowing him to buy the amulet and I get the sword. It's win win. Ideally if we had time for the wizard to craft both this wouldn't even be an issue because we are just looking at what we need to how much it costs. If we got both our items for half price no big deal but we can't so my paying the wizard just makes sense here.It makes sense only in this scenario where the wizard has taken all the craft feats, you have time for one item, and neither can wait.
And in the end the wizard still is not profiting. He doesn't get "extra" money from it or end up more powerful.
If we flipped the scenario would the wizard have given some gold to you if he only wanted to craft his amulet and you buy the sword? It sounds absurd.
If more than one person took craft feats (let's say the wizard took craft wondrous item adn the other arms and armor) then everyone would get there stuff crafted since you can do it all at once.
It's also been pointed out its possible to craft while adventuring, it just takes way longer. So maybe you decide between the two of you what's more important to the group right at this moment and go from there.
I guess what I'm getting at is charging for crafting isn't always a bad thing. I'd take is on case by case basis. You can tell when it's gouging or if it's trying the make the best use of gold in specific situation. But to say charging for crafting is always wrong isn't right.
TO THE OP: I am not sure if you are reading but I urge you against many other posters advice. If you choose to not charge for crafting do not apologize for wanting to. You did nothing wrong. You did not go aground on some imaginary rule of thumb.Yep i still read, even if i'm a little deluded by the drop of quality of the thread after a very good start.
Thanks for your advice and don't worry, i didn't apologize in any way.
Since i'm here i'll take the occasion to post my last 2 cents on the latest part of this thread.
1-I'm surprised by reaction of some people, seeing them talking one can think i'm trying to rape their mother's or something similar, i will be offendend by some of them basically labelling me a jerk and even worse in direct or non direct way, but the fact that this kind of people take a certain position in the argoument just prove my point, i don't wont people like that to agree with me. I think that these people are bad players and bad dms.
2-Adamantine i'm still waiting your answer to my (long) post, but i doubt it'll ever come in a meanigful way
3-Till now nobody has posted a single rational reasion against the 10% but one. The fact that this unbalance the party wealth, it's true, it's totally true and it was one of the factor that made me take my decision; i think that this aspect could have been designed better.
But i want to add a thing, player and pc have the same rights but they are not equal. It's not right to punish someone for finding a way to have more money or power (bouded by good sense of course, everthing can be exagerated) and reward player to do notthing but to wait for the next loot.
4-Just because you always play a party where the members never disagree with each others and never have interest outside the group's one that doesn't mean this it the only way to play, in fact is a rather boring ad unpersonal way of play in my opinion. And just because your friends are ok with crafting at 0 cost (notthing wrong here) this doesn't mean that anyone have to agree with it, in fact you are discouraging all but the totally-altriustic-pious-saint player to be a crafter. The fact that you are ok with them not crafting and not ok with the crafting, make you save money but having some share of it is just hypocrital as a pg and as a player.
As a final tought, as someone said to me:
-Always talk about this before doing the pg
-Always talk yo your friends, you'll solve any problem talking, if they don't want to talk but just obly senselesly you to do things, quit the group.
Couldn't agree with you more. The first ten posts or so of this thread have more or less all of the major points of view and the rest has been a slow descent into madness. Well, maybe not that slow.
"soft" PvP
Does the player of the crafter get upset when he learns that the party rogue has been sleight-of-handing very expensive gems to sell for his personal roguish pleasures? If the crafter is allowed to earn more, so should the other characters through their means.
Or worse: is the rogue allowed to steal the profit back from the crafter?
If the rogue is stealing from random nobles/business and not from the in adventure treasure there is no problem. As soon as the rogue steals from the adventure treasure he is stealing more than his share of party loot.
Actions performed during adventures are actions that work towards your party share. That is why it is wrong to charge for combat healing, using power attack, disabling traps, ect. The reason why you get a party share is because you are preforming those actions.
Crafting is not a normal adventure action, its something that a person does on their free time, similar to a peasant while not working in the fields practicing a minor craft. The lord is entitled by contract to some or all of the labors of the field minus what the peasant eats, but generally most rent for that kind of situation doesn't include cottage industry. The situation where the lord IS entitled to all of the peasants labors? Slavery.
Now in an adventuring party, generally there isn't a "lord" character, its more of a party of equals. If equals believe believe that the fruits of labor from individuals in the party are automatically the property of party as a whole, then you have a commune. Which is fine as long as all members of the commune agree on all points. When a member doesn't, and the other members force compliance... how is that different than the tyranny of the majority? There is no give and take, there is only take and redistribution. Its about as bad as a former union of countries in real life that used to pay its doctors less than other professions because they should pay back the collective for all that education and trade training they got for "free".
So the real issue is it stealing when somebody pays the crafter more than cost?
Theft requires something taken against the will of the person being stolen from. In this case the buyer is voluntarily spending money that is already dispersed from his party share on a item that they specifically want. So it is not theft on that count. Gouging requires a cost that higher than the normal market cost because the buyer doesn't have a choice. In this case not only is the cost much lower than the market cost, the buyer has the choice to not buy from the crafter. So its not gouging. Profiteering is a pejorative term for business trying to make a profit through unethical means. In this case the crafter is not raising prices above market cost, he is not jacking up prices due to price fixing, in fact he is undermining the market. He is giving a service at below market price because of party need. This is the opposite of profiteering. But lets look at the group. They want to fix the price of something at artificially low prices. They want to make a profit (in WBL terms, I know they can't see for a profit) at the cost of somebody else (a fellow party member) getting nothing. Now this IS profiteering. If the party member doesn't want to give his labor away, this IS theft (and if you strong arm him into it, its extortion, and a protection racket when you start bringing up in combat threats like not intercepting attackers, or refusing your role in combat).
I find the behavior of party members that wish to steal, extort, or threaten other members because they won't do what they want disgusting.
If my options are pay 2000gp for a +1 weapon from an NPC
or
Pay 1100gp to the party crafter for the same item.
I'll pay the 1100 gp everytime, and if the crafter is considered to be "stealing" from me, he can "steal" from me the whole campaign.
There is a difference between your character being a jerk and you being one. I, personally, did not mean to imply that you are a jerk. Your character definately is, however (in my opinion).
I did't make names (kinda pointless seeing some posts), if someone feel that that sentece is direct to him; well it's his problem.
The unbalance of party wealth is the major concern here. Ask youself this: if your wizard couldn't craft, and you have a ring of protection +1, a +1 dagger, and a feather token, while your buddy the fighter of the same level was decked out in chain mail +3, a +2 flaming longsword, a cloak of resistance +2, a belt of physical perfection +2, a ring of protection +2, and boots of speed; would you be a little upset at the imbalance of wealth?There should be a disconnect between wealth that can spent on magic items and equipment (your wealth-by-level) and in-game wealth (such as your Wiz opening a chain of new and unique Magik-Marts across the kingdom), but there isn't in the...
As you have read in my previous post i agree that the wealth balance is the only inssue, and being it a metagame issue the "your player is a jerk" just don't make sense but in very situational party composition and interaction.
I can understand why you think that there should be a disconection but i don't agree, if one of my players is smart enought to make a profit of something (again, with some good sense)i'm totally fine with it; it's right to reward good idea, good thinking and smart action (since you get what you reward and you lose what you penalize) by disconecting the two thing you are in fact penalizing having good not-fluff related ideas, plus you are doing it not with some in game sensate reason but with pure gm metagaming, you are forced to this since there are no logical reason for a player to not benefit for his ideas.
I know that a lot of group can't stand the idea of someone being more rich or more powerfull (again, within sense) but that just derive from a wrong sense of competion (if the gm is willig to give everyone the same opportunites of course, and if they come up with something more than "where's the next quest?") between players, and this is far away from "the group" idea.
Pg are born with equal rights and opportunity, just that, if someone can put them to a better use than the other is just normal for him to live better and stay better both in fluff related stuff and real stuff.
Of course, i can't say it enough, always using good sense since every system and every rule can be abused.
> Are the other party members not out earning money, while the crafter does his crafting? If the DM is fair he'll make sure that, in the end, everybody earned the same amount of money when all crafting/hunting/stealing/mercenary/curing is done.Often? No. Keep in mind generally speaking regular jobs pay incredibly little compared to adventuring.
Let's say a crafter charged a "reasonable" amount of 5%. In 8 hours he'll make around 50gold.
That's the amount for a single item... I guess the wizard will be making items for several people. So with 4 people that means 4x18gp while the wizard is crafting 1 item for each person.
The survivalist might sell the hides. And any of them could take mercenary jobs that pay well... It's up to the DM to make it really fair in the end though. But if people really wanna RP it, I think it's perfectly fine for the non-crafters to go do something, while the crafters sit around crafting. :-)
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If my options are pay 2000gp for a +1 weapon from an NPC
or
Pay 1100gp to the party crafter for the same item.I'll pay the 1100 gp everytime, and if the crafter is considered to be "stealing" from me, he can "steal" from me the whole campaign.
This is the way I see it. The players in the op are being just as selfish as they claim the crafted is. They are getting magic items at a discounted rate and still aren't happy. If i was playing in that game as the crafter, I would just stop making items for the group and quietly craft items for myself in the downtime between sessions. Crafters give up a lot taking those feats, why should there not be a return on it?
This may have been said already, but I really dont feel like reading 500+ posts to get caught up
I think this whole thread just shows the issues with the current crafting rules. I'm not advocating going back to 'crafting magic items costs xp', however, the RAW doesn't make sense.
If a PC crafts a magic item (or any item it seems) they only get back the cost of the materials to make it. An NPC, however, can add a 100% mark-up to the cost of the exact same item.
No one seems to protest this issue, though. It's not 'stealing from friends' when Clyde Carpenter charges his neighbor Frank Farmer twice what it cost him to make that plow. Why, then, is it 'stealing from friends' when Wally Wizard charges extra to Rudy Rogue for that +1 dagger?
You want 'stealing from friends'? Try this little scenario: in an old 3.5 game, my husband took the feat that let him sell for 75%. He'd take all the items the group found and sell them, then come back and split 50% of the cost with the group. No PC ever caught on in-game, and no player cared when he told them out-of-game.
After reading this thread, I'm half-way considering banning *all* magic item crafting in my game.
A simpler solution, though would be to Rule 0 the stupid 50% idea and allow for a profit. Used items sell for 50%, newly crafted for 75%+ depending on the market.
Then, when Wally Wizard chooses to make items for his party at only a 10% over cost, he's benefiting the group and himself, while taking a massive cut in what he could have made by selling the same item to an NPC.