dragonfire8974's page

it seems whenever i'm away for any amount of time the argument regresses to what i've already addressed...

oh well, i'm out this weekend anywyas

dragonfire8974 wrote:

our group pools for consumables like teleports and does free crafting because we're constantly facing 3 or 4 APL +3 monsters. nothing unites a party like the constant threat of death. we have LN, NG, CN bordering on CE, CN, and another LN. because we have all been targeted, we have to stick together or die apart. its a pretty effective party unity tool

So, if I'm reading this right there is still money that flows to the individuals that the individual can do with as they choose right? Your pooling only consists of consumables? That would seem like an acceptable way to play for the group of neutrals you have.

What I was mentioning is that if all wealth is considered party wealth, and each item created or bought comes from that pool and belongs to the party not the individual. I could really only see that working (in-game) for a good aligned group.

ahh right, my mistake

Yep.. some what, 200 posts later, and the ball still hasn't been moved from the 50 yard line, by either side.

The fact guys is that we're all arguing our own opinions as though we can and should inflict them on our groups.

Its all just "how you think is the most fun way to play. Neither is right, neither is wrong.

If you think charging X% is appropriate talk to your group, get their input, act accordingly.

If you think being being charged, or charging x% is absurd, talk to your group, get their input, act accordingly.

I'm not really sure why the discussion is still going on unless its really just because everyone enjoys repeating their exact same reasonings over and over again just to hit 2000 posts.

"stealing from the party makes you a jerk"
"no it doesn't it just lets me maintain wbl"
"yeah but taking money from your party makes you a jerk, if you do it so can everyone else"
"yeah but the crafter's contribution is worth more than everyone else's so he deserves more money"
"but stealing from the party makes you a jerk"

we're just rolling through the convo over and over and over again like a broken record.

Truth:
WBL is something that the DM *should* be handling, using as a method to help make sure the party power is adequate for the CR of beasties he's throwing at them. Its not something the PC's *should* be having to even mess with.

Truth:
If the group thinks that the crafter charging for crafting shouldn't be allowed- then it isn't allowed. End of story.

Truth:
If the group thinks that the crafter charging for crafting is allowed then its allowed. End of story.

Truth:
No one person inside the group has the right to dictate terms to the group. The dictator is the person who gets "thrown out" regardless of which side of the coin they are on.

If me or AD came to a "pro fee" crowd we could either accept it and go with it, craft things ourselves, pay full price, or go home.
Harrassing and threatening the rest of the group into doing things our way would be...

but if we stop arguing we'll never get to 2000 posts

dragonfire8974 wrote:

no more than 1/2 dozen people have said that, and when i said it, it was in jest then to illustrate to the whole, 'its what my character would do' thing cuts both ways.

I really don't mean to be a dick even though this kind of sounds prickish, but i'm not that kind of gamer who won't have fun if you don't play it my way. i'll enjoy a game because i like to game

The fee crafters had asked a few times that if the crafter took the feat and only crafted for themselve, would they object. The half dozen or so free crafters that responded said that they would, that they would ask drop the crafter PC, and those are the only ones that I recall addressing the question at all. So, to me, that means that in general, the free crafters will drop the crafter if they do not craft at cost. I have no problem accepting that in your case it was in jest, but that still leaves the others.

I didn't take you to be a "dick" or "prick". Engaged and passionate about the subject, yes.

The biggest frustration that I have had in this thread is/was the derogatory terms towards the fee crafting crowd. When this was brought up pages ago, most of you moderated your terms, which was appreciated.

nah man, i understand. also i wouldn't mind if a crafter just crafted for himself. to me, that's what the FAQ ruling says...

BTW, i lol'd a little when you wrote "I just flagged you for the truth"

it depends what kind of game you're having. if it is a constant heartpounding combat game, the fighters and cleric are going to wind up ahead. if its a more RP heavy, then its the person with charisma and social skills. if its a normal game, there is a good chance that there would be a TPK because the wizard won't memorize battlefield control spells because someone's going to say that's not contributing, they're going to get into an argument, someone will get dominated... then there will be a good bloodbath

talk about absurdist arguments. fees cause TPK! no fee crafting it will kill off your group!

btw, i'm just kidding, just wanted to make a little fun of myself

dragonfire8974 wrote:

though in your above situation, it depends who's character's abilities are most needed at the time who will come out ahead

An excellent point. The only way to know is to actually play it out. My argument is based on an assumption that if there was no crafter in the group, the contributions over-time would equal out. Now if wizard takes some crafting feats he ends up ahead of the rest.

.
It's a reasonable assumption given the difficulties of accurately determining the true cost of party participation.

BTW, i lol'd a little when you wrote "I just flagged you for the truth"

it depends what kind of game you're having. if it is a constant heartpounding combat game, the fighters and cleric are going to wind up ahead. if its a more RP heavy, then its the person with charisma and social skills. if its a normal game, there is a good chance that there would be a TPK because the wizard won't memorize battlefield control spells because someone's going to say that's not contributing, they're going to get into an argument, someone will get dominated... then there will be a good bloodbath

sunshadow21 wrote:

My thoughts on the WBL complaint being raised are that arcane casters, the most common crafters, aren't actually going to have that much higher actual WBL as they tend to rely more heavily on consumables (scrolls/potions/wands) than the other classes. Over time, the person ultimately using the shiny weapons and armor that the crafters are making will still have the full value of their item. The stuff the crafters either have to make for themselves or get others to make for them will be gone after one use in most cases. Therefore, a small fee to acknowledge the crafter's time is not inappropriate, and helps keep the demands for requested items reasonable. That fee doesn't necessarily have to be gold, but there does need to be some kind of recognition that they are doing something completely optional as far as the game is concerned. Most of the examples people are using as counterarguments are not optional, they are simply expected as part of the game; that is a big difference. The recognition doesn't have to be huge; an extra 5% is going to be barely noticable to the martial fighter, and give the crafter enough gold to make a few more consumables, which tend to be the lifeblood for many of the casting classes, but not really much more beyond that.

Everything you said here is basically the reason why I charge. I use consumeables quite a bit, and it helps out.. I also charge a minimal fee of 5% as well.. Barely noticeable considering I just increased his wealth by 45%.

.
I could see not charging if everyone pooled thier money into one giant party fund.. and the crafter made everyone what they needed, and consumeables came from that fund. In this system nothing is the individuals.. everything belongs to the group.

A group like this would almost all be Good aligned chars.. which is not how our group is at the moment.

our group pools for consumables like teleports and does free crafting because we're constantly facing 3 or 4 APL +3 monsters. nothing unites a party like the constant threat of death. we have LN, NG, CN bordering on CE, CN, and another LN. because we have all been targeted, we have to stick together or die apart. its a pretty effective party unity tool

dragonfire8974 wrote:

one was being intentionally provocative and should be flagged.

when we attempt to breakdown eachother's arguments it is to illustrate our understanding of the concept, not to intentionally exaggerate to absurdity, that's not constructive.

I agree in the sense that when an argument is taken to the absurd, it tends to spark an negative response in people. However, it can be constructive in the sense that some people cannot see where an argument breaks down unless it is taken to its extreme. Thats where the emotions come out and the accusations of mischaracterization comes into play.

-
I do think, that if someone is having a hard time seeing the other side of an argument, then exaggerating to the absurd can be a valuable tool.

For example, in my previous posts, I took that absurd notion that if the crafter can charge, then the healer can charge argument, and I expanded it even further. The absurd argument broke down when one realizes that if everyone charges for thier service, the charges will equal out (heal for a buff; for a disable device.. ect). Yet, the crafter will still make more because he is doing something above and beyond that of his companions.

yes, i do agree that exaggeration can be a valuable debate tool for exactly the reason you stated, same with attempting to put the other's position in your own words. when i'm having trouble understanding, i attempt that not to put words in someone's mouth, but to see if i'm missing the point.

though in your above situation, it depends who's character's abilities are most needed at the time who will come out ahead

@dragonfire8974 - it really comes down this, typically the crafter PC is making magic weapon for two reasons.

1. he's making things for himself
2. he planning on offering crafting services to his party companions

Obviously there will be exceptions, but mainly those are the reasons for why the feat was chosen.

In terms of purchasing magic items, the party really only knows that you pay whatever the price is at the local magic mart. The party simply has no idea that the magic crafter is offering anything other than a good deal when he undercuts the magic mart.

It's really just that simple.

You want to know who's being rude in this thread? It's the Free Crafters and their insistence that THEY are the only market that the crafter can sell to. They're essentially advocating for holding the crafter character hostage.

"Craft for me, at the price I want! It's not like you can sell the item for more anyway."

That is such a load of crap.

the problem is, the crafter probably isn't the only one who handles selling loot. and probably isn't the only one with appraise. both of those ways could tell you the cost of an item. I've said before, that if i were playing a BSF (big stupid fighter, which really is my favorite character. "hey, you gonna eat that orphan?"), I certainly wouldn't know the difference. I wouldn't even be good with money so i'd probably ask one of my party members to take care of my share of the gold just for fun.

but at some point, the crafter will do something at cost or talk to someone about something at cost, or some of the other players will discuss it with an NPC. there are plenty of ways to find out IG how much things cost to make. so while i understand that everyone doesn't know inherently how much magic is worth, I would rule (as a GM) that you could figure it out with spellcraft, knowledge arcana/religion (for magical knowledge) or appraise.

i've never advocated for holding a crafter hostage. according to RAW, the only way a crafter can make a profit is by selling to the party (excluding hedge magician and any GM who allows a diplomacy check to give you a better price). that's just absurd saying we're holding the crafter hostage...

VedounMar wrote:

stuff

My generalizaion comment is still valid, because the majority of the free crafting crowd that has posted in this thread and addressed the question have stated "craft for free or get out". Is not the basis of a generalization, that the majority does "x"?. Stating that you can make a call and have a dozen people post things/support your argument doesn't really carry any weight with me. Prove it, have them post support for the free crafting crowd and state that they are doing so because you called them, and it may carry more weight with me.

no more than 1/2 dozen people have said that, and when i said it, it was in jest then to illustrate to the whole, 'its what my character would do' thing cuts both ways.

I really don't mean to be a dick even though this kind of sounds prickish, but i'm not that kind of gamer who won't have fun if you don't play it my way. i'll enjoy a game because i like to game

yet again i disagree, seeking bow does not allow you to hit the target unless you know which square to hit. i never talk pvp, i talk BBEG v your archer. my point is that you cant say "archer > wizard in damage potential? because how do you rate save or die in damage? one hit kill?

also wizards have more flexability over any other class as far as having the best potential damage. you might theory craft having 150 dpr, but that dosent mean squat when the BBEG throws up a wind wall.

but anyway... we digressed the thread, back to the topic at hand. if you meta game you are in the wrong. so if you get pissy because i charge you 10% more, then you have already failed at the game imo.

.... must... fight... urge.... to... digress....

Finished up the spells for the Expanded Guide, which also concludes everything that I'm probably going to do with it.

I may make an expanded equipment section for the main guide sometime in the future, but I don't really spend a lot of time looking at equipment, and even when I DM I just use random generators to assign loot.

I may get around to doing it at some point, but for now I think I'm done with anything related to the guide besides going in and editing stuff for clarity and conciseness. I am after all a master of the unnecessary comma.

this is incredible. thankyou so much

dragonfire8974 wrote:

I tend to make the most powerful characters in my party too, doesn't mean you'll not need them at some point. either that or you're playing with some severely unoptimized characters. if you take a decent archer, they will outdamage a wizard like no one's business in basically every way possible.

this actually is not necessarily true, i would love to see your archer attack anyone in obscuring mist, through a wall, or while in darkness. a good cleric/wizard will shut an archer down, while a mage has tools to counter those abilities.

well, most things aren't dangerous on the other side of a wall, but when it comes to damage potential...

seeking bow negates the obscuring mist and the darkness. but if we're going to talk PVP? it comes to who has initiative and if the wizard has time to prepare.

but if we're talking killing bad guys? archer wins

In-character, fee-crafting is a really good deal. Out-of-character, Free-crafting makes sense because you assume the crafter can't refuse your demands and sell the item for more.

Yes, AD, I stand by my statement. You are using the meta-game to justify the best price for your character. In doing so, you're devaluing the in-game time of the crafter PC.

Combat healing is not the same as combat crafting. In fact, there is no such thing as combat crafting.

See the difference now?

Rogue sneaks for free and he's going to do it anyway.

Are you seeing the trend yet?

So if there's no RAW, well then it must be bad-wrong for the crafter to value his time and charge for it?

The bottom line is, again AD, that you just don't want to pay the crafter more than 50%. 'Cause you're cheap and you don't recognize a good deal when you see one. :P

okay... bunch of stuff here.

assuming again that the crafter isn't grateful enough for his friends disarming/setting off traps that could have seriously ruined his day to give them things he can make at cost, or that he's just ran into a whole new group of adventurers where they really haven't been in that much danger yet together.

In-character - Fee crafting is still a good deal as you point out. but it also brings up as to how much profit one should be making on things you do to help out the other people. if the crafter says he needs a profit, why not the other guy who's researching enemies or trying to get contacts so they can sneak into the nearby castle to grab the macguffin? In character and out of character fee crafting brings up a group dynamic that can be toxic if you're not prepared to deal with it. If your group doesn't care or likes it? GOOD! have fun :)

Out of character there are rules that say you are the only one who can benefit from your craft feat in regards to wealth (this is a paraphrasing, please don't say that they meant for you to charge because you gain a wealth benefit). crafted items count as creation cost for WBL calculations, while non crafted items count as full market cost. Mistwalker has pointed out that this is RAW, and while i don't like it, it is the rules and we have to argue (again as mistwalker has pointed out) from RAW or RAI instead of from how we houserule our own games.

To complete the Above metagame-balance thought - charging allows your character to accrue wealth above the others and suppress theirs. again, if your group doesn't care, great. I always want there to be a level playing field between the characters because no one can feel cheated.

healing is more crucial when you need it than crafting, so it is more easily able to extort money. if you're down to 1hp or 1wisdom or 1str, it is pretty easy to get a high price from some of those healing spells especially if there's still combat yet to come.

the rogue can take some treasure without letting the others know and thus gain 'compensation' for his/her services. the tank/direct damage monkey gets the most screwed because their roles are straight forward. the only way they're going to get paid for their services is if they let the monsters kill their friends and loot the bodies after cleaning up. it has been made abundantly clear that no one is willing to pay for charging up into the face of death to keep it's attentions from squishies or cutting it into ribbons, so the only recourse is to strike at the moment needed, or find someone else who appreciates the labor.

this turned into a longer post than i intended....

Countering the wizard's 10% crafting fee by charging for your actions in the party is a foolish gambit. My wizards have universally been the one in the party that did the most damage, handed out the most buffs, helped the adventure through scrying/teleporting/door-making, and if necessary could do a fair share of OoC healing thanks to UMD.

If I really wanted, my wizard could make a minion that's as powerful as you (and have, free of charge). Now that every gold that would be given to you for your sword swings can be deducted from your debt to the skeleton's punches, you can provide any normal loot you get to the wizard because of all the stuff he's doing on top of that.

Not exactly a good way to 'get back' at the supposedly greedy wizard.

I tend to make the most powerful characters in my party too, doesn't mean you'll not need them at some point. either that or you're playing with some severely unoptimized characters. if you take a decent archer, they will outdamage a wizard like no one's business in basically every way possible.

if your party isn't pulling their fair share, it is probably in your best interests to make them more competent than take the whole burden onto yourself. one unlucky roll and the whole adventure is screwed (hold person or icy prison)

but yeah, not to be a dick or anything, but this is beside the point. if you're running the whole show, it doesn't matter whether you do things one way or the other

Adamantine Dragon wrote:

Flagged that one too loaba. Stop speaking for me, and stop claiming that my argument is one thing when it clearly is something else.

And..

Adamantine Dragon wrote:

Let me break down your arguments...

One has to appreciate the irony of someone who flags someone for the very thing they themselves do in the same post (next sentence to be exact). Hmpf!

one was being intentionally provocative and should be flagged.

when we attempt to breakdown eachother's arguments it is to illustrate our understanding of the concept, not to intentionally exaggerate to absurdity, that's not constructive.

Adamantine Dragon wrote:

I have it. YOu want it. I can profit from it.

Anything else is metagaming. "I have a FEAT".

You want to play capitalist profiteers...

I'll play a capitalist profiteer.

Been down this road several times now. The argument is the same.

You charge me.

I charge you.

Simple. Straightforward. Fair.

But is the wizard not acting in combat as well? He's not asking you to pay for his time or use in combat. He's asking you to pay to take things from what could be his shop. That's his off-duty livlihood, and you expect him to make you items at cost because in your NOT free time (dungeoneering) you both do your jobs? If he simply stood by and took from the loot, with his ONLY task being a craftmonkey, sure. But I'm sure he doesn't, as a party member.

So you swing your sword, he casts his spells. In your time in a city, were you to win at a casino should you be expected to split that loot up evenly with the party?

alot of this is also assuming the crafter is a wizard, which I made my crafter be a fighter. fighter's don't really lose much crafting cause they have tons of feats.

I think the point AD is making is that if you start charging for something, why can't someone else charge for something else? if he's not making that argument, how does fee crafting compare to the slippery slope argument? cause i'm sure the guy with the out of combat healing could have most of the group by the balls if he says, "give me 50g or i won't heal you."

Adamantine Dragon wrote:

I have it. YOu want it. I can profit from it.

Anything else is metagaming. "I have a FEAT".

You want to play capitalist profiteers...

I'll play a capitalist profiteer.

Been down this road several times now. The argument is the same.

You charge me.

I charge you.

Simple. Straightforward. Fair.

But is the wizard not acting in combat as well? He's not asking you to pay for his time or use in combat. He's asking you to pay to take things from what could be his shop. That's his off-duty livlihood, and you expect him to make you items at cost because in your NOT free time (dungeoneering) you both do your jobs? If he simply stood by and took from the loot, with his ONLY task being a craftmonkey, sure. But I'm sure he doesn't, as a party member.

So you swing your sword, he casts his spells. In your time in a city, were you to win at a casino should you be expected to split that loot up evenly with the party?

actually in our current game, this is how we're playing. pool everything we get and then split it up.

the other players are really glad for this cause i've been making a hundred thousand a month, and am about to multiply that by 3 with a couple choice items. so instead of my character being VASTLY stronger than the rest, i'm splitting it evenly with the party. but before the game we decided we would share everything

dragonfire8974 wrote:

Mistwalker wrote:

Uchawi wrote:

Taking 10 percent profit is like an investment for the group, you have to show the returns on such an investment to keep the groups interest. Just stating you are taking 10 percent based on an organizational belief will not fly with most players, if you do not take the effort to explain how is benefits the group.

I am not quite sure what you are saying here.

That charging a 10% fee should lead to a benefit for the group? If so, doesn't the crafter being a stronger PC benefit the group?

well, if you give the crafter all the wealth, isn't that better because he's much stronger now?

action economy is my answer to that. you need 5 people doing strong actions instead of 1 character doing very strong actions

You make it sound like it a very large increase in wealth, when it is not. But I believe that the increase in wealth/magic items craft will put the crafter back on par with the rest of the group, as strong as they are.

it depends at what level. craft rod, at its level, can equal out that metamagic feat. craft wonderous items can equal out toughness almost when you get it.

craft wand isn't worth it (as i think selgard put it: it is like balling up loot and throwing it at a target).

now as you level up and you have more wealth feats do become less replaceable, but their bonuses become less consequential. especially when you have untyped bonuses like orange prism ioun stones

It is less about wanting the team weaker, as not being the weak link in the team because crafting feats were chosen.

If you have two identical spellcasters, but one takes Toughness and one takes Craft Wondrous, and you also give them the same magic items because the crafter is crafting for free, then the spellcaster that took toughness will do better in fights, be able to last longer and live longer too.

If the crafter charges a small fee, then they have a chance of balancing themselves against the other spellcaster, by crafting an additional item that will help them in combat, like an amulet of armor or a cloak of displacement. That is what I believe the feat does and what SKR was trying to get across with the FAQ.

So free crafting has made the party stronger, but not the crafter. So the crafter is now more at risk while adventuring. Stronger encounters to challenge the rest of the party will be more dangerous to the crafter.

I don't see the fee as dipping into the loot/into team pockets/etc.. but as a way of stopping the rest of the team from dipping into the crafter's pockets.

Not all downtime is handwaved in all groups. Nor are the event's during that handwaving consequence free to the PC or party.

okay, attempt 2.

I understand that feats are important. I am currently working on a build of a high level air mage and i have 4 item creation feats. 1 is cause of concept, and the other 3 because they're just too strong to not have. it is kinda painful when I don't have the elemental substitutions i want, and other metamagic feats that i really enjoy, but looking at the character, any less effective wealth, and I would drop in effectiveness a load. (wow, does that sound like feces to anyone else?)

2nd, i'm pretty sure the FAQ says that crafted items count at 1/2 wealth for WBL calculations. I don't remember if it says for the crafter or not full disclosure. i'll look for it later

3rd, the other party members that don't need the feats do get to shine a little more in combat, but if no one had the feats, the whole party would shine less, but that's if your GM allows your group to benefit from your crafting feat. But i don't see that as a problem, because i like giving other people the spotlight. not meaning to imply that other people don't, I just happen to be a veteran at a table where there are few others. I enjoy thrusting the newer or other players into the forefront. Even if we're in an evil game where the other players could backstab me, i think it would be more fun to let them do it and say, "why? i trusted you..." as i die.

I don't see any group playing out the day to day activities of their characters over a week, maybe a day, but not for much longer. GMs I know say, "what are you doing?" and then we RP important events or if the players want something lax we can throw a party or sit at a bar and RP that

dragonfire8974 wrote:

you do gain a benefit, but if you don't think you gain a benefit from crafting for your friends i don't think you need to keep in this discussion. the MOST IMPORTANT thing in pathfinder is action economy. the SECOND most important thing is wealth. crafting gives you a huge benefit, and are you now arguing it doesn't? no offense intended but i'm done... I can't argue with someone who has a fundamental disagreement about the usefulness of crafting

I don't disagree on it's usefulness I'm just disagreeing on whether you can maintain those uses while spreading the benefits, you insist that somehow you do when the logical result is that you don't. But if you're done that's cool.

I don't think my -character- benefits from crafting for my friends and the fact is that it's true and action economy is well and good but if you don't understand the basic logic I've presented about how relativistic wealth increase/decrease affects the party and the crafter, well maybe it's time for you to leave the discussion too.

yep, we have a fundamental disagreement. I didn't mean to sound rude if I did

I LOVE THE NEW FAQ RULING!

It validated the playstyle we've been using (and have been persecuted for using) for years. Now I finally get to point at you naysayers and say "neener neener." :D

grrrr.... (j/K)

Uchawi wrote:

Taking 10 percent profit is like an investment for the group, you have to show the returns on such an investment to keep the groups interest. Just stating you are taking 10 percent based on an organizational belief will not fly with most players, if you do not take the effort to explain how is benefits the group.

I am not quite sure what you are saying here.

That charging a 10% fee should lead to a benefit for the group? If so, doesn't the crafter being a stronger PC benefit the group?

well, if you give the crafter all the wealth, isn't that better because he's much stronger now?

action economy is my answer to that. you need 5 people doing strong actions instead of 1 character doing very strong actions

dragonfire8974 wrote:

and I don't know where you're getting that crafting makes you less strong somehow. even if you craft all wealth for everyone in the group, that doesn't make you less strong than any of them, it makes them stronger.

Okay once more into the breach.

If you start at A=B=C=D
then you go A=A0+10 & B=B0+10 & C=C0+10 & D=D0

can you see how D=A-10? and therefore A=B=C>D?

If you can get all of that and you replace A through D with players you should see how increasing the power of everyone else means you're weaker than them.

there's an error in your math, everyone gets the same powerup by the crafter taking 1 feat. but that's just how I play, and it is not RAW that everyone can get the same benefit.

crafter is not weaker, everyone else is stronger. And if we're going to start arguing now about the GM negating every bonus you'd give the party, that's a completely different can of snakes

dragonfire8974 wrote:

Lets see if i can address everything

for a team you don't want stronger, then you don't have to craft for them. if you craft for all of them, each can benefit from the crafting feat. but the operative word is can. if you don't like your team, then you can have them buy their stuff from someone else, there's lots of good excuses as to why you can't craft for them.

according to the FAQ, the only benefit your party is supposed to get is the custom items, no WBL benefit. but if you selectively apply the crafted items should be included in WBL at cost, then you can have the math add up anyway you want it to.

your adventuring party being stronger is a benefit for the crafter, not just for the other party members unless there's PvP, because everyone is able to pull more weight. the benefit to the crafter from a stronger party is the ability to take on stronger challenges, thus gaining more wealth and power for him/herself.

fee crafters can do what they want. if its cool with your players, have fun! as long as your gamers like it, then go for it. but it is dipping into the loot, and charging your other characters for using a feat, no matter if it takes up your character's time, like charging people extra for rez or anything else that takes a lot of time. downtime is handwaved anyways. Everyone contributes, and even if crafting is by far the most powerful feat in the game no matter how you interpret it, we don't tend to split loot based on how much someone contributes. unless you support that, which is fine, i just wouldn't play that way.

Did i address everything?

It is less about wanting the team weaker, as not being the weak link in the team because crafting feats were chosen.

If you have two identical spellcasters, but one takes Toughness and one takes Craft Wondrous, and you also give them the same magic items because the crafter is crafting for free, then the spellcaster that took toughness will do better in fights, be able to last longer and live longer too.

...

argh! internets ate a long post i had.... it will be a bit before i am willing to retype that

One way to resolve the problem could be for all the party members to take a crafting feat. Service rendered for service rendered and no fees charged (or if they are, it becomes a wash in the long run).

This way, everyone is equally "gimped" and has one of the "most powerful feats" in the game.

:)

We did this in our recent game. until i got followers and cohorts :) now i do all the crafting for everyone

VedounMar wrote:

So if your invented personality demands fees, you can just as easily invent a personality that doesn't. Unless of course you're moving goalposts again.

Hmm, sounds a bit like you are telling me how to play my character....

I think he's saying that there are other RP forms of 'payment.' you don't need to charge money, especially if you're in a group that doesn't like the concept of paying to craft. but that's a group dynamic thing, and i'm not going there

Wealth should be a factor in how encounters are built, but show me a GM that knows exactly how much wealth the party has and then designs the encounter, and i'll show you a GM that has recently done an audit, or has players that tend to write down more items on their sheet then they get.

crafters who charge do get extra WBL. in the math you showed me, the party would have about 1/2 the wealth because crafted items count as 1/2 when it comes to WBL.

I did say that i'd kill the crafter under some circumstances where the crafter's death would benefit my character, or satisfy him in some regard. But that would be if we were playing one of those competitive games where the party isn't three-musketeery. if i don't like the crafter charging and everyone else does, i'll make my own crafter. I love crafting

did i mention i love crafting? cause i really love crafting

and I don't know where you're getting that crafting makes you less strong somehow. even if you craft all wealth for everyone in the group, that doesn't make you less strong than any of them, it makes them stronger.

example: sir phillip and his buddy ortho have been travelling and fighting together. sir phillip notices that ortho's sword isn't as good as it could be and ortho has money. phillip creates a new sword for ortho with that money and now ortho can cleave things a little better than phillip can. that's okay because phillip is a trip build and they both have paired opportunist causing their storm of attacks of opportunity just that much more effective and them to become a fighting force our GM now fears

dragonfire8974 wrote:

.... I really don't like that FAQ ruling...

But it is RAW.

Not using it is a houserule. NOthing wrong with houserules, but they are not RAW

I know, i just don't like the ruling

Suzaku wrote:

Humphrey Boggard wrote:

shallowsoul wrote:

Not sure why this argument is still going on but I think people need to just agree to disagree and file this as a per group decision.

Weren't you the guy who started the "Why all the fighter hate?" thread? You of all people should know why this argument must go on and on and on.

Incidentally, congratulations everyone! Today we've surpassed the "Why all the fighter hate?" thread in terms of number of posts. Keep up the good work, we'll be at 2K posts soon and are still on schedule for 80K posts by Christmas!

Hey the fighter can spend two feats and become the crafter. So it's not limited to casters.

Fighters will never be the crafter because Master Craftsman is a trap, and doesn't let you make many magic items at all.

except for the fighter crafter i've been playing...

a blacksmith farmer's son who has taken up adventuring

lastblacknight wrote:

Also on WBL; if one sells an item at half cost (say 2,000) and makes a new item at half cost (2,000) where is the disparity? The math is remarkably simple granted it's different if it is starting gold Basically crafting lets you sell the +1 Sword and make something useful in it's place for half it's worth.

To answer the question; Selling an item and then turning around and making something else for the same price isn't where the disparity happens. The disparity happens when the crafter makes something for 2,000 that would usually be bought for 4,000.

The crafter has effectively increased his wealth by 2,000gp.

Now the FAQ has stated that this is by design, so the disparity is indeed supposed to be there. I don't like the disparity, but I would also like to get some personal benifit from the feat. Thats why the fee crafters charge the party for crafting. To maintain the intent behind the design.

20% seems to be about right for a 4 member party according to some people who have thrown some math around here. However, I like to be on the low side.. I only charge 5% for a 5 member party. Because in the end, it's still a group game.

.... I really don't like that FAQ ruling...

dragonfire8974 wrote:

-

If feats aren't important than they're just as unimportant to the rest of the party so they can feel free to get crafting too. I think anyone you ask would tell you that feats are important that they're powerful and that many character concepts would be impossible without them it's a significant investment to take feats particularly if those feats do nothing for you or actually make you weaker and I can't see a reason to take the feats if they aren't going to have any benefit for me.

Also OOC why would I possibly care if I gain levels faster or slower? I play because it's fun with my friends when we hit max level and end the game we'll start a new one again because it's fun so why exactly do I want to end a campaign sooner?

you do gain a benefit, but if you don't think you gain a benefit from crafting for your friends i don't think you need to keep in this discussion. the MOST IMPORTANT thing in pathfinder is action economy. the SECOND most important thing is wealth. crafting gives you a huge benefit, and are you now arguing it doesn't? no offense intended but i'm done... I can't argue with someone who has a fundamental disagreement about the usefulness of crafting

dragonfire8974 wrote:

crafters aren't weak. even if they craft for the whole party, they don't end up being weak, at least from my experience. but again, if the GM balances the challenges, then would you rather gain levels faster than slower? as that's what the GM is doing when he rebalances the challenges.

Eh if the DM is rebalencing challenges properly you should not gain levels any faster or slower since the increased challenge is balanced by the increased power of the party members.

but with higher encounter level with reference to the party does equal more experience. so if the DM is rebalancing with stronger monsters, that equals more experience

yeah, why did your usual GM let him GM? that's just kinda... seems fishy to me

dragonfire8974 wrote:

yeah, I remember all of that "kill the fee crafter" talk. i did it at some point but that was after talking to the player, talking to the GM, and the crafter IG making my character feel cheated. Otherwise i'll enjoy the game

why do you think a stronger party = weaker crafter? I don't get it. I've always played crafters because crafting makes you much stronger. of course taking all the crafting feats does gimp a character, but one or two is fine.

I don't like charging for any feat or ability... it just sets up a bad precedent.

A stronger party always fights stronger monsters right? Because the game is boring without a challenge. But assuming 4/5 people have more money and a feat or two and the last guy has more money but no feats he's weaker than the rest and that means he's weaker compared to the enemy assuming the monsters are balanced to fight his friends(which is likely since they're 4/5ths or 3/4ths of the party.

Now if you don't focus on crafting this isn't a huge deal one lost feat usually won't kill you and if you focus on crafting for yourself again no big since the bonuses from better items make up for the lost feat bonuses but the more focus you have and the more crafting you do for others the worse crafting becomes for the crafter from a personal power standpoint because the party gets even stronger while you become even weaker relative to the party and the monsters they face.

I don't really care about charging either way for that matter most of our characters in my current campaign barely like each other and are only together for the money which is split evenly after an adventure in our games now that usually means anyone seriously injured is going to leave you hanging because dead men spend no gold it also means that any gold they make in their free time is theirs and they'll shiv you if you try to take a cut.

Admittedly this isn't how all campaigns work but it's just as valid a setup as the best friends of justice stopping evildoers and...

crafters aren't weak. even if they craft for the whole party, they don't end up being weak, at least from my experience. but again, if the GM balances the challenges, then would you rather gain levels faster than slower? as that's what the GM is doing when he rebalances the challenges.

from an IC perspective the parties strength =/= your strength, you have no way of knowing if these people will betray you, get dominated, mind controlled, turned to the dark side, become undead, die, etc. The more of your personal power you funnel into them the less likely your own survival becomes in the long run.

sounds like you're playing a competitive game within the party, which isn't the type where you want the rest of the party to be stronger than you and they can steal. I can have fun with that, but that's not the type of game i wanna play

but if you're cooperative gaming, you can do something to help with those dominates, like a protection from evil spell, or save bonus stuff

I recall being told (not by you necessarily but by members of the anti crafting fee side) that if you don't craft for the party your stealing and are getting the boot immediately or the thief will no longer pick locks and the fighter will scratch his butt while you die.

Actually that's not true about the party strength crafter strength thing in fact the harder the things you fight because of increased party strength the more glaring your relative weakness becomes until you're the mook who follows the party around makes them shinies and flails around crying like a girl in combat.(nothing against girls just using the expression)

Sure is charging people for using a feat but feats have value they should be charged for. If you are the only one getting the benefit you spent the feat slot for the feat that's fair. If you aren't the one taking the feat what did you spend on it? Maybe money if you get a feat equivalent via ioun stones or whatnot or if you have to pay somebody for it(which doesn't matter because it achieves the end goal of equal WBL assuming you follow the FAQ), but having the advantages of the feat is worth something otherwise it wouldn't matter if you had 3 million feats or none.

yeah, I remember all of that "kill the fee crafter" talk. i did it at some point but that was after talking to the player, talking to the GM, and the crafter IG making my character feel cheated. Otherwise i'll enjoy the game

why do you think a stronger party = weaker crafter? I don't get it. I've always played crafters because crafting makes you much stronger. of course taking all the crafting feats does gimp a character, but one or two is fine.

I don't like charging for any feat or ability... it just sets up a bad precedent.

dragonfire8974 wrote:

with my interpretation of the FAQ, WBL remains the same, crafted items count as their crafted price for wealth calculation. that's still a big benefit to the crafter

But the crafter sees no benefit from taking any of the crafting feats - the rest of the group does, as they are getting custom and cheap magic items without having to spend a feat - yup, great deal for them, but it seems to be a raw deal for the crafter to me.

dragonfire8974 wrote:

now in my games? crafters can craft for whoever they want, whenever they want, which is a bigger benefit

And how is that different from the fee crafters?

Edit: Typo and clarification

lets see if i can address everything

for a team you don't want stronger, then you don't have to craft for them. if you craft for all of them, each can benefit from the crafting feat. but the operative word is can. if you don't like your team, then you can have them buy their stuff from someone else, there's lots of good excuses as to why you can't craft for them.

according to the FAQ, the only benefit your party is supposed to get is the custom items, no WBL benefit. but if you selectively apply the crafted items should be included in WBL at cost, then you can have the math add up anyway you want it to.

your adventuring party being stronger is a benefit for the crafter, not just for the other party members unless there's PvP, because everyone is able to pull more weight. the benefit to the crafter from a stronger party is the ability to take on stronger challenges, thus gaining more wealth and power for him/herself.

fee crafters can do what they want. if its cool with your players, have fun! as long as your gamers like it, then go for it. but it is dipping into the loot, and charging your other characters for using a feat, no matter if it takes up your character's time, like charging people extra for rez or anything else that takes a lot of time. downtime is handwaved anyways. Everyone contributes, and even if crafting is by far the most powerful feat in the game no matter how you interpret it, we don't tend to split loot based on how much someone contributes. unless you support that, which is fine, i just wouldn't play that way.

Did i address everything?

Actually, he has somewhat lax with other players, dropping items randomly that benefits them specifically. He claims he randomly rolls, but there is a subtle favor to other characters. I told other players, but they assumed I was paranoid.

I assumed as such. but whatever, if it becomes worse, you can take a hiatus from that game. but if you can enjoy it...

sadly you're going to have to learn to have fun with him trying to negate you, if what i assume is going to happen

I agree with the audit, and then let him have his fun

If the crafter crafts only for themselves, then yes, the feats are great. The problem is that the free crafter crowd has said that if the crafter won't craft for free for them, they will drop the PC from the group. So it is either craft for the group or leave. If you craft for free, then the crafter has gained no benefit from the feat, as the non-crafters have gained the benefit at no cost to themselves, so the crafter has taken one (or more) for the team.

the crafter gains no benefit in relation to the rest of the team, but gains a huge benefit

dragonfire8974 wrote:

sure your math looks fine. but since we differ on our interpretation of the FAQ, we are going to have to agree to disagree

With your interpretation, what is the point of someone taking a crafting feat?

If not one takes a feat, everyone will be at the same level of wealth, paying full price.

If there is a crafter, then by your interpretation, everyone will be a the same level of wealth, just calcualted with cost value rather than full price. The GM will likely have to reduce loot to keep the encounters balanced for where the PCs are supposed to be.

It would appear that the crafter lost the benefit of a feat.

with my interpretation of the FAQ, WBL remains the same, crafted items count as their crafted price for wealth calculation. that's still a big benefit to the crafter

now in my games? crafters can craft for whoever they want, whenever they want, which is a bigger benefit

Thank you very much. Without a starting point, my back story writing is rather terrible.

nah man, i understand....

Ring of protection

This ring has a perverted sense of love imbued in its heart. this was a wedding ring from a noble lad that he lay on his commoner love. a sweet story of forbidden love, as his family forbade it eventually, the head of his family, the grandfather, disowned him, and renounced his inheritance. Disgraced, he left the town with his love hoping to have a lovely life. but he was not a strong man, nor particularly adept with his fists, and any money they were able to acquire soon was out of their possession. but his love had a different vision of the future. she sold her ring and was ripped off, and this was the last straw. she torched the shopkeeper's home while he lay in bed and walked into his shop to get her ring back. and evil glint now in her eyes, she was the protector of her once noble patron. somehow she was able to kill hardened soldiers with ease, and with her newfound power, they had an idea to get his family's wealth. together the returned in the night and slaughtered his whole family and took control over all the possessions. no one dared to question him as he claimed his family's name and it's prestige as all who did died. they lived happily ever after.

a robber robbed the tomb they were buried in many many years after they died so this came into circulation

i'll do as many histories as you'd like :) i enjoy creating these short little stories

EDIT: writing the ring of protection story now

Here is the list:

Amulet of Mighty Fists 5,000 gp (+1),
Breastplate, Mithral 4200 gp
Fetish of Natural Armor (+1) 1,500 gp
Ring of Protection (+1) 2,000 gp
Ring of the Beast 8,000 gp

Eventually, I hope to obtain all these.
With every one already having +1 Weapons, and me struggling to get some Mwk tools, I am slowly falling behind. I talked to him privately, and he said I was a power gamer, and he did not want any WOW-like characters. I have no stats below 10 and have never power gamed. I simply like the numbers to match the character concept.I can backstory every magic item, but time constraints make it very hard. I have never dealt with a "thespian" DM.
If anyone has any advice, I would love to hear it.

so!

Ring of the Beast Backstory

this ring once adorned the companion of a young elven princess. this small girl kept many animals, but this was the marking she put on her favorite Wolf, Kinsly. She bought him from a cruel carnival and tamed him from a savage beast into a loving Guardian. she gave the ring as a token of her love and devotion to the animal. then, tragedy struck her line. A drow raid at night took the lives of most of her family, and her retainers fought to keep her safe. but as the drow neared her room in the tower, the wolf grabbed her and ran. as they jumped off of the 50ft high balcony, it seemed like the wolf grew. miraculously surviving the fall, the wolf took off with the young princess dying from exhaustion and wounds as it got to the next village. having nothing but what she had on her, the princess was forced to sell the ring, not knowing the noble spirit of her animal left some of his essence behind making it magic

Here is the list:

Amulet of Mighty Fists 5,000 gp (+1),
Breastplate, Mithral 4200 gp
Fetish of Natural Armor (+1) 1,500 gp
Ring of Protection (+1) 2,000 gp
Ring of the Beast 8,000 gp

Eventually, I hope to obtain all these.
With every one already having +1 Weapons, and me struggling to get some Mwk tools, I am slowly falling behind. I talked to him privately, and he said I was a power gamer, and he did not want any WOW-like characters. I have no stats below 10 and have never power gamed. I simply like the numbers to match the character concept.I can backstory every magic item, but time constraints make it very hard. I have never dealt with a "thespian" DM.
If anyone has any advice, I would love to hear it.

wow... I don't know if it would work. i'm sorry. this dude obviously is angry about his character dying or has had a chip on his shoulder about you for a while.

first off, you can ask your other characters to help you get your items.

2nd, you can tell him that if it is a personal beef, y'all can work it out. you killed him after a long talk with other people who thought you would be okay with it. you can ask him what would make it better

3rd, if he really thinks your a powergamer, then either your other characters aren't very effective, or, again, your GM has it out for you. one of the ways I have dealt with it, is talking to the GM about how the challenges and your character interact. a powergamer would have bonuses way above normal level.

lastly, you can take a break from the game until he cools down

dragonfire8974 wrote:

Mistwalker wrote:

What about the numbers. Are they correct? Have I made an error anywhere?

Do the follow the intent of the FAQ?

the intent of the FAQ is that the crafter have more wealth than the rest of the party. and I think the FAQ says that crafted items count as 1/2 cost when it comes to WBL, and i think that applies to all crafted items, not just for the crafters

Do you agree with the numbers? Are there any errors in them?

sure your math looks fine. but since we differ on our interpretation of the FAQ, we are going to have to agree to disagree

dragonfire8974 wrote:

I agree that that's an interpretation of the FAQ, but i really dislike that FAQ.

Would you, at least, be able to agree that it's good to give a tangible reward to a PC for taking a non-combat feat?

yes, very much so. i'm all for rewarding RP, i think that crafting is super powerful though

dragonfire8974 wrote:

I agree that that's an interpretation of the FAQ, but i really dislike that FAQ.

I know that you and a few others don't like that FAQ, but it is RAW.

What about the numbers. Are they correct? Have I made an error anywhere?

Do the follow the intent of the FAQ?

the intent of the FAQ is that the crafter have more wealth than the rest of the party. and I think the FAQ says that crafted items count as 1/2 cost when it comes to WBL, and i think that applies to all crafted items, not just for the crafters

dragonfire8974 wrote:

this (Mistwalker's Math] is only taking part of the FAQ's rulings into account. Again, i don't agree with it, but the FAQ says that only the crafter can benefit from the increased wealth that the feat grants. this implies that you have to sell to the other PCs at 100% price

Y'know what, even if you charged the party 100%, you'd still be doing them a service by supplying custom-ordered magic items. That is a major point that has continually been lost or overlooked in this thread. The Free Crafters simply refuse to acknowledge that eliminating the percentile dice is an advantage worth paying for.

custom items are worth it, don't get me wrong, but my objections are generally of a meta origin