Creating magical item for the party + small fee on the work = players uprorar?


Advice

351 to 400 of 2,075 << first < prev | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | 8 | 9 | 10 | 11 | 12 | 13 | next > last >>

Kydeem de'Morcaine wrote:
Adamantine Dragon wrote:
... Your misinterpretation of the argument may be one reason you have chosen the side you are on.

There are statements of:

Any character that doesn't make my items for free will be killed by my PC, the player will get kicked from the group, you are jerk, you are [insert whatever bleeped cuss word]... You don't have the right... You are stealing from me if I don't get everything for free... You are dishonest... It doesn't really cost you anything... It doesn't matter because you still have some of your time left... If you make magic for you you get more powerful while I don't... The wizard is already plenty powerful, why should he get anything...

That really sounds to me like what the wizards wants to do is completely irrelevant to alot of people. His job since he is a wizard is to take the crafting feats and make magic items for free.

Are you really sure I misinterpreted the arguments?

WEll SAID. Completely agree with this. I cant believe some of the outragous responses coming from this forum.

Group 1 (Its ok group): "I think thats a fair price to spend and here is why.... "

Group 2 (Its not Ok): "BURN HIM, KILL HIM, THEIF!!!"

Good lord people.


I can see 2 sides to this argument. I only agree with one side of it, but which one is neither here or there.

This argument is NOT going to be resolved, and all that either side is doing is making the other angry.

Plus, by the looks of it, the OP already resolved his issues with the group, so can we all just call peace, agree to disagree, and get back to shooting each other later? :)


loaba wrote:
Selgard wrote:
I'm never going to be happy paying another character in the group 10% for something. I will be happy to leave his self serving character behind and find someone else who's more group oriented.
And likewise no one would want to play a crafter in your party, Selgard. Now you get to roll percentage and if you luck out, you can even pay full retail for whatever it is.

I or anyone in the group we play don't charge anyone a 10% fee to craft items. I think Selgard's group is probably the same way, so I am not sure the point of your statement as well, it is demonstratably false.


Well Im out. Its been fun debating this. Honestly this just shows how different each group can be while playing the same game. Different strokes and all...

I personally think its one of the great things about Table Top.

Have a great day to everyone.


loaba wrote:
Selgard wrote:
I'm never going to be happy paying another character in the group 10% for something. I will be happy to leave his self serving character behind and find someone else who's more group oriented.
And likewise no one would want to play a crafter in your party, Selgard. Now you get to roll percentage and if you luck out, you can even pay full retail for whatever it is.

And I'd be glad to, before I let another player stick his hand into my pocket and steal my money to use his class features for the group.

I'd also leave the barbarian at home for demanding cash before he raged or used power attack. I'd leave the rogue behind for demanding cash before he disabled traps or unlocked a door. I'd leave any caster behind for demanding cash to cast a spell- unless it was a spell I requested and it had a costly material component. I'd gladly pay that- but not a surcharge just to cast the spell.
I'd even *buy* a spell caster a scroll for them to learn a spell that I might need cast sometimes, or even to have them make scrolls for me from it.

But if they are lining their pockets by using their class features and feats to charge me gold, then they are gonna get left on the steps of whatever building I found 'em at.. cuz they aren't going adventuring with me. If I don't trust 'em, I don't trust 'em. I'm certainly not taking such a self serving individual with me into the dark dank places of the world where they can slit my throat and rob me blind without anyone the wiser. Nope, I want folks I can *trust* withme when I go do that stuff. Not folks who are out to rob me.

As for "no one" wanting to play a crafter in a party I'm in.. well, I patently disagree. There is already a crafter in the party I'm in- and they are quite happy to make things for the group so we can overcome our challenges more easily. Just as my own character is happy to craft things for those few folks who might want it. (and have already done so, as requested).

-S


The point being, people, that unless the crafter has the Hedge Magician feat, then quite literally the only people in the universe the crafter can make a profit from are his own team-mates. Funny how that is; do you think it was intended that the craft should profit (increasing his WBL and decreasing that of his party) off of his own adventuring companions?

I don't.

Master Arminas


Dragonamedrake wrote:

...

I personally think its one of the great things about Table Top.

..

This, I definately agree with. One of the things I love about table top as opposed to computer games- we can have our opinions and do things differently and still none of us be wrong or right :)

-S


Selgard wrote:
I'd also leave the barbarian at home for demanding cash before he raged or used power attack.

Who's making this argument, or a one like it?

Selgard wrote:
But if they are lining their pockets by using their class features and feats to charge me gold, then they are gonna get left on the steps

Item crafting isn't a class feature, it's a Feat choice. What you're saying to any prospective Wizards is, if you take craft, then you better be selling me equipment at 1/2-price. That's kinda crappy, really.


My group divides everything equally at the end of an adventure. They can make loans with no interest that must be paid back. Other than that what they do with their downtime and money is their business.

One time in 3.5 the group had a player who opened a bar with his money, and was able leverage his characters money to generate more money. He became independently wealthy through this side business, and none of the players had issue since they had an equal chance to do this. They even enjoyed a discount and had no problem paying the reduced fee. Heck, they would have no problem paying full, since to demand a reduce price is pretty much theft or strong arm tactics.

Item crafting is similar. Its the player's choice how he spends his earned wealth. If the other party members don't like the price, they can roll for it and pay full. Anything else is theft or strong arm tactics.


Lohan wrote:


I actually read most of the thread and this needs to be explained, and I hope that you do go in depth. You have an excellent point! I have seen this happen in games I have been in. When the party wealth shifts to favor one character (and it is in 10% above cost in the OP) it will cause a shift favoring the character with the crafting feat in this situation. Ignore the 40% savings argument, it isn't the issue. Lets say that the spellcaster in the party makes everything for everyone. In the case of charging cost +10% the spellcaster will end up with more wealth than the party and over time can craft themselves more gear. This will skew the game.

Not to mention that once the party sees the difference it causes resentment or other negative feelings to arise.

The OP has long ago already figured out what to do about their situation, and I'm glad for that. For the remainder of the thread dragon's post is important.

this is going to take a while


master arminas wrote:

The point being, people, that unless the crafter has the Hedge Magician feat, then quite literally the only people in the universe the craft can make a profit from are his own team-mates. Funny how that is; do you think it was intended that the craft should profit (increasing his WBL and decreasing that of his party) off of his own adventuring companions?

I don't.

Master Arminas

Craft magic items for me, slave!


master arminas wrote:
The point being, people, that unless the crafter has the Hedge Magician feat, then quite literally the only people in the universe the craft can make a profit from are his own team-mates...

Uhmm... No you could open a shop and/or sell to the end user not the middle man merchant shop. But I agree most people would find that boring.

master arminas wrote:
... do you think it was intended that the craft should profit (increasing his WBL and decreasing that of his party) off of his own adventuring companions?...

You are saying he should double theirs while getting nothing.

Why is that more reasonable the increasing theirs by 80% so that he get a little bit.


loaba wrote:
master arminas wrote:

The point being, people, that unless the crafter has the Hedge Magician feat, then quite literally the only people in the universe the craft can make a profit from are his own team-mates. Funny how that is; do you think it was intended that the craft should profit (increasing his WBL and decreasing that of his party) off of his own adventuring companions?

I don't.

Master Arminas

Craft magic items for me, slave!

I don't think that word means what you think it means.


master arminas wrote:

The point being, people, that unless the crafter has the Hedge Magician feat, then quite literally the only people in the universe the craft can make a profit from are his own team-mates. Funny how that is; do you think it was intended that the craft should profit (increasing his WBL and decreasing that of his party) off of his own adventuring companions?

I don't.

Master Arminas

This.

The feat is not intended for exploitation to increase one character's wealth. Anyone reading the feat rules can see that it is DELIBERATELY written to not allow wealth increase.

So to get around that, people take the feat and exploit their friends.

I love all the arguments about "I"m SAVING YOU MONEY!" as if you don't save the party MORE money if you don't charge the fee.

So don't embarrass yourself with claims that you're doing anyone any favors.


loaba wrote:
master arminas wrote:

The point being, people, that unless the crafter has the Hedge Magician feat, then quite literally the only people in the universe the craft can make a profit from are his own team-mates. Funny how that is; do you think it was intended that the craft should profit (increasing his WBL and decreasing that of his party) off of his own adventuring companions?

I don't.

Master Arminas

Craft magic items for me, slave!

Heal me slave! Buff me slave! Protect me slave!

geebuz...


loaba wrote:


Item crafting isn't a class feature, it's a Feat choice. What you're saying to any prospective Wizards is, if you take craft, then you better be selling me equipment at 1/2-price. That's kinda crappy, really.

Well you can always choose not to.

You can benefit the group as a whole. Or you can benefit yourself and help somewhat indirectly with the feat. Neither of these things is wrong.

It's only wrong when you decide to profit from keeping the group well equipped.


Selgard wrote:

But of 4 folks are sharing 1 house and 1 guy is a plumber, its not beyond expectation that he'll keep the plumbing in check in the house without charging the other 3 guys the going professional rate for plumbers. Why? Because part of up keeping the house is, for him, doing the plumbing for the house. If he says "guys I'll fix this but I'm going to charge yuo all 45 bucks an hour" then he should expect everyone else to start nickle and diming *him* for all the things *they* do around the house for upkeep too. Mowing the lawn, trimming the hedges, doing the cooking, nailing a shingle on the roof if it gets blown off, repairing the .. well, you get the idea. You live together, you live as a group, you maintain the dwelling as a group. If one of yuo has a special skill that lets you maintain the dwelling, or upgrade the dwelling, cheaper... that doesn't mean you start charging the other guys for it.

Do you know how to cook? Do you live with folks who don't? Do you charge them to cook for them? If so- how'd that work out?

This analogy is flawed.

If we were to liken it to game terms. It is more like all four guys have to cook, clean, mow the lawn, ect.. Except the one guy who knows how to fix plumbing is being forced to fix it for free. he is being exploited for his ability in fixing plumbing that apparently breaks down enough that he is spending months at a time fixing it. Now it's not unreasonable for the other party members to chip in as compensation for his efforts.

This analogy is also flawed in that, plumbing benifits the whole household since they all use the plumbing. Crafting an item benifits one guy since he is the only one gaining the benifit of the item.


Dr Grecko wrote:
Selgard wrote:

But of 4 folks are sharing 1 house and 1 guy is a plumber, its not beyond expectation that he'll keep the plumbing in check in the house without charging the other 3 guys the going professional rate for plumbers. Why? Because part of up keeping the house is, for him, doing the plumbing for the house. If he says "guys I'll fix this but I'm going to charge yuo all 45 bucks an hour" then he should expect everyone else to start nickle and diming *him* for all the things *they* do around the house for upkeep too. Mowing the lawn, trimming the hedges, doing the cooking, nailing a shingle on the roof if it gets blown off, repairing the .. well, you get the idea. You live together, you live as a group, you maintain the dwelling as a group. If one of yuo has a special skill that lets you maintain the dwelling, or upgrade the dwelling, cheaper... that doesn't mean you start charging the other guys for it.

Do you know how to cook? Do you live with folks who don't? Do you charge them to cook for them? If so- how'd that work out?

This analogy is flawed.

If we were to liken it to game terms. It is more like all four guys have to cook, clean, mow the lawn, ect.. Except the one guy who knows how to fix plumbing is being forced to fix it for free. he is being exploited for his ability in fixing plumbing that apparently breaks down enough that he is spending months at a time fixing it. Now it's not unreasonable for the other party members to chip in as compensation for his efforts.

This analogy is also flawed in that, plumbing benifits the whole household since they all use the plumbing. Crafting an item benifits one guy since he is the only one gaining the benifit of the item.

No the analogy is more like four people living in and sharing the house. One is a plumber, the second is a professional chef, the third is an electrician, and the fourth is a a landscaper.

None of them charge the others for maintaining their shared house because they are all contributing to the general welfare of the group. Now, the plumber goes to roofing school (or whatever) and after the next big storm offers to fix the roof. The group has to buy the materials, but then the plumber says, don't worry guys, I'll only charge you an extra 10% the material cost instead of charging my normal fee for the labor.

I don't think he would be living there for very much longer. Do you?

Master Arminas


Adventure Path Charter Subscriber
Dr Grecko wrote:


This analogy is also flawed in that, plumbing benifits the whole household since they all use the plumbing. Crafting an item benifits one guy since he is the only one gaining the benifit of the item.

Unless it's a wand of cure x wounds. Or perhaps a wand of lesser restoration. Or maybe a decanter of endless water. Or a flying carpet that seats 4. etc. etc.


Dr Grecko wrote:


If we were to liken it to game terms. It is more like all four guys have to cook, clean, mow the lawn, ect.. Except the one guy who knows how to fix plumbing is being forced to fix it for free. he is being exploited for his ability in fixing plumbing that apparently breaks down enough that he is spending months at a time fixing it. Now it's not unreasonable for the other party members to chip in as compensation for his efforts.

This analogy is also flawed in that, plumbing benifits the whole household since they all use the plumbing. Crafting an item benifits one guy since he is the only one gaining the benifit of the item.

This is flawed in several ways.

#1, nobody is saying that the item crafter has to craft 24x7 at the demands of the party. Well, nobody reasonable is. The argument is that WHEN the crafter makes something, he doesn't charge his party members for it. Maybe that means he crafts a lot, maybe not. His choice.

#2, it is quite reasonable and likely that mr. plumber in your analogy will be given a ride on cooking, mowing the lawn, cleaning, etc. for those months when he spends an equal time on plumbing.

#3. There is no "plumbing is broken all the time" situation here. Crafting is done at will.

#4. The "chipping in" the rest of the party does is already underway, just through the cost of the item since that is not coming out of the crafter's pocket.

#5. The whole argument that "only one guy" benefits from a crafted item is so laughably ridiculous that I can't believe it is being presented here multiple times. ANYTHING that makes a party member more effective in combat benefits the entire party. In fact it might be the one thing that avoids a TPK.

Finally, the only thing that is valid on the idea that crafting should not be free is that the crafter is spending time crafting. So the only question of "fairness" is "does having the crafter make items for the group mean the crafter is spending a larger portion of his 'free time' making items for the group. If the answer to that is "yes" then the group should figure out how to rectify it. If the answer is "no" then it's not a problem.


Bill Dunn wrote:
Dr Grecko wrote:


This analogy is also flawed in that, plumbing benifits the whole household since they all use the plumbing. Crafting an item benifits one guy since he is the only one gaining the benifit of the item.
Unless it's a wand of cure x wounds. Or perhaps a wand of lesser restoration. Or maybe a decanter of endless water. Or a flying carpet that seats 4. etc. etc.

Yep, I've already stated a while ago that at least in our campaign, that when it comes to party items that benifit all, it come from party funds that and there is no surcharge attatched.


Dr Grecko wrote:
Bill Dunn wrote:
Dr Grecko wrote:


This analogy is also flawed in that, plumbing benifits the whole household since they all use the plumbing. Crafting an item benifits one guy since he is the only one gaining the benifit of the item.
Unless it's a wand of cure x wounds. Or perhaps a wand of lesser restoration. Or maybe a decanter of endless water. Or a flying carpet that seats 4. etc. etc.
Yep, I've already stated a while ago that at least in our campaign, that when it comes to party items that benifit all, it come from party funds that and there is no surcharge attatched.

Well good then. Because EVERYTHING benefits everyone. Unless the crafter is making a "+3 helm of purpleness" for someone who just likes purple. But pretty much any item any crafter would make for any party member is going to make the party more powerful in combat. So your rule works out great Dr. Grecko.


Adamantine Dragon wrote:
master arminas wrote:

The point being, people, that unless the crafter has the Hedge Magician feat, then quite literally the only people in the universe the craft can make a profit from are his own team-mates. Funny how that is; do you think it was intended that the craft should profit (increasing his WBL and decreasing that of his party) off of his own adventuring companions?

I don't.

Master Arminas

This.

The feat is not intended for exploitation to increase one character's wealth. Anyone reading the feat rules can see that it is DELIBERATELY written to not allow wealth increase.

So to get around that, people take the feat and exploit their friends.

I love all the arguments about "I"m SAVING YOU MONEY!" as if you don't save the party MORE money if you don't charge the fee.

So don't embarrass yourself with claims that you're doing anyone any favors.

He could be spending his time doubling his own wealth. Instead he is doubling yours. Or if he charges, increasing your wealth by 80%, and you get the items on demand. If that isn't doing you a favor, I don't know what is.


Dr Grecko wrote:
Bill Dunn wrote:
Dr Grecko wrote:


This analogy is also flawed in that, plumbing benifits the whole household since they all use the plumbing. Crafting an item benifits one guy since he is the only one gaining the benifit of the item.
Unless it's a wand of cure x wounds. Or perhaps a wand of lesser restoration. Or maybe a decanter of endless water. Or a flying carpet that seats 4. etc. etc.
Yep, I've already stated a while ago that at least in our campaign, that when it comes to party items that benifit all, it come from party funds that and there is no surcharge attatched.

So explain to me soemthing.

How is it that that making the rest of the party more efficient adventurers fails to benefit the group as a whole?


loaba wrote:
Selgard wrote:
I'd also leave the barbarian at home for demanding cash before he raged or used power attack.

Who's making this argument, or a one like it?

Selgard wrote:
But if they are lining their pockets by using their class features and feats to charge me gold, then they are gonna get left on the steps
Item crafting isn't a class feature, it's a Feat choice. What you're saying to any prospective Wizards is, if you take craft, then you better be selling me equipment at 1/2-price. That's kinda crappy, really.

If the barbarian charges to power attack- thats the same thing as the wizard charging to craft something. *the exact same thing*.

If you take craft, and make an item for the party, you are using your feat for the benefit of the group. You aren't selling me a single thing. I'm not BUYING anything from you, the wizard. I'm giving you the money to make me an item. You are taking my money and turning it into an item. I'm not buying. You aren't selling.

Whats crappy is the wizard expecting me to agree to give him my heard earned cash because he took a feat.
do I get to charge him when i take feats? How much do I get per power attack? Can the sorc start charging when he maximizes? What about the tank? can he charge the group for shield specialization? How about weapon focus? Improved critical?

If the cleric takes extra channeling can he charge the group when he uses the extra ones?

In your group- maybe. In the groups I've been in? Its never come up. *not once*. Neither has the crafting thing. Why? Because WE (the group) are in it for US (the group). WE want to get better so WE can do things better. THe wizard gladly makes stuff for himself -and the group- so the group can get better.

Crappy is the character thinking he can profit from the group by taking a feat. Now that is crappy. The guy who does this has no business complaining when others charge for their feats, or when the rogue sneaks off to swipe an item from the dragon's horde without anyone seeing it.

Using your feats to take money from other characters is using your feats to take money from other characters. If the guy with item creation feats can do it, so can *every other person* who gets to select feats.

You wouldn't let the barbarian charge you for power attacking. You wouldn't let the fighter charge evreytime he swung his sword with wep focus or spec on it. You aren't getting away with charging the group for item creation feats.

-S


master arminas wrote:

No the analogy is more like four people living in and sharing the house. One is a plumber, the second is a professional chef, the third is an electrician, and the fourth is a a landscaper.

None of them charge the others for maintaining their shared house because they are all contributing to the general welfare of the group. Now, the plumber goes to roofing school (or whatever) and after the next big storm offers to fix the roof. The group has to buy the materials, but then the plumber says, don't worry guys, I'll only charge you an extra 10% the material cost instead of charging my normal fee for the labor.

I don't think he would be living there for very much longer. Do you?

Master Arminas

Except that in game terms... Nobody is considered Professional chef, electrician or landscaper..

They are considered adventurers, and unless they have ranks in those professions and the party has previously stated that they will be fulfilling these roles in the party and that the crafters sole role is to craft, then it is assumed everyone is doing equal amounts of every task. Except the crafter who is also burdend with 4 hours daily of crafting efforts for the party... It doesnt even begin to compare.


This thread has made me want to start a party of 4 Lawful Neutral worshippers of Abadar who have entered into a purely business endeavor.

The cleric charges everyone for healing, spellcasting, skill use.

The fighter charges everyone for every point of damage dealt, every point of damage received, and every use of a bonus feat.

The thief not only charges for trapfinding, unlocking doors, and sneak attacking, but also steals things when possible.

The mage charges for spell casting and crafting.

In addition, they've determined that when looting a monster, your share is based entirely on your role. When looting a monster, those who put the killing blow/spell on a monster claim all the monster's treasure. If the fighter kills a dragon, he gets the hoard. However, if the hoard is trapped, he can negotiate with the thief to disarm it for a share.

It's just good business, after all. I'd love to see the business contract after a few game sessions. I can foresee lots of negotiation on how to charge for various services, and how the party members would game the system for the most profit. Could be fun.


Quote:
He could be spending his time doubling his own wealth. Instead he is doubling yours. Or if he charges, increasing your wealth by 80%, and you get the items on demand. If that isn't doing you a favor, I don't know what is.

Why can't it be both? why does it have to be either/or?


notabot wrote:


He could be spending his time doubling his own wealth. Instead he is doubling yours. Or if he charges, increasing your wealth by 80%, and you get the items on demand. If that isn't doing you a favor, I don't know what is.

This isn't Monopoly. The "score" isn't how much wealth you can accumulate. And even if you did accumulate "too much" then the GM is going to "fix" that.

Plus, unless your crafter is an idiot, he will be making items for everyone in the group, including HIMSELF, meaning that in the end everyone in the group benefits equally.

More and more these pro-profiteering comments seem to me to indicate a remarkable obsession with amassing wealth in game.

If that's the real issue, then I see why the profiteers are up in arms by the anti-profiteers arguments.


I picked this party because i have general ideas for items, and this would allow large long range damage. the samurai is a switch hitter for when things close to melee

party without a crafter level 13 140k

i'm going a little over with most of these, but not much. and remember, this is just thrown together. I didn't give the wizard many consumables because i would have to know a lot about the campaign to properly tailor a wizard to it

Paladin:

+2 speed composite longbow
celestial plate
+6 to dex
boots of levitation
ring of evasion

Archer:

+2 speed composite longbow
Celestial Plate
+6 to dex
dueling gloves
boots of levitation
resist +2
luck +1 to saves
insight +1 to saves

wizard:

+6 to int
+2 inherent to int
ring of sustenance
metamagic rod of quickening, lesser
metamagic rod of selective
metamagic rod of elemental sub (acid), lesser

Samurai:

this is a little over, but roughly
+4 keen katana
+6 belt of str
ring of sustenance
+3 full plate
+2 deflection
+2 insight
+2 luck to AC
+2 composite longbow
+2 resist to saves

party with a crafter wealth = 280k

Paladin:

+5 speed dueling composite longbow
celestial plate
boots of levitation
Belt of dex +6
headband of cha +6
ring of evasion
Cloak of resist +4
Ring of sustenance
6k to invest into crafted healing items for the party including pearls of power

Archer:

+5 speed composite longbow
Belt of physical might (str and dex +6)
boots of levitation
celestial plate
ring of sustenance
gloves of dueling
Perception +10
2k for crafted healing items

wizard:

+6 to int
metamagic rod of dazing
metamagic rod of selective
metamagic rod of quickening greater
ring of sustenance
6.5k to dedicate to party stuff

Samurai:

+5 keen katana
+2 speed dueling longbow
+5 full plate
Belt of physical might +6 (str and dex)
ring of sustenance
boots of leviation
Ring of protection +2
vest of insight +2 to AC
Bracers of Luck +2 to AC
6k for crafted healing items

party where wizard takes 10%
wealth of each character 260 k
wealth of the crafter 340 k

Paladin:

+5 speed dueling composite longbow
celestial plate
boots of levitation
Belt of dex +6
headband of cha +4
ring of evasion
Cloak of resist +4
Ring of sustenance
6k to invest into crafted healing items for the party including pearls of power

Archer:

+4 speed dueling composite longbow
Belt of physical might (str and dex +6)
boots of levitation
celestial plate
ring of sustenance
gloves of dueling
resist +5
Perception +10

wizard:

+6 to int
metamagic rod of dazing, greater
metamagic rod of selective, greater
metamagic rod of quickening greater
ring of sustenance
6.5k to dedicate to party stuff

Samurai:

+5 keen katana
+2 speed dueling longbow
+5 full plate
Belt of physical might +6 (str and dex)
ring of sustenance
boots of leviation
Ring of protection +2
vest of insight +1 to AC
Bracers of Luck +1 to AC
1k for crafted healing items


TarkXT wrote:

So explain to me soemthing.

How is it that that making the rest of the party more efficient adventurers fails to benefit the group as a whole?

My distinction lies in direct vs indirect benifits to the party. Who's to say that crafting my own item wouldn't benefit them more? Where does the distinction lie? How do you prioritize your crafting efforts? Does a ring of spider climb help the party anymore than a spell I could cast? Too many variables to consider in what does or doesnt benifit the party. I do know that a discount of 40% benfits the party for sure.


3 people marked this as a favorite.

Once again, i'm gonna make a call for peace.

When this thread began, it was an honest and sensible discussion about the ethics of charging other PCs for crafting their magic items.

NOW, however, it has devolved into a farcical show of manhood-measuring, and any hope of reaching any meaningful concensus is long gone.

So, everyone, let's stop this pointless war, because anyone in here who still thinks they can change anyone else's mind is kidding themselves. Let's all move along, there is nothing more to see!

Liberty's Edge RPG Superstar 2015 Top 16, RPG Superstar 2013 Top 16

1 person marked this as a favorite.

Abadaran dogma insists you charge for, and pay for, services and goods rendered.

So charge the other players for crafting. But insist on paying them for healing, spells cast, etc. You could even pay the fighter types for bodyguard/security services.

Actually, you could RP the above but handwave all the actual player-to-player gp transactions. "Bob, my records show that you still owe 200gp for that armor I crafted for you. However, I owe you 150gp for that lesser restoration you cast for me. Hit me with a cure light wounds and we'll call it even."

Sovereign Court RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8

I'm just curious.

The "You're a jerk for charging" camp, would Wally Wizard be a jerk if he only crafted for himself?


Dr Grecko wrote:
master arminas wrote:

No the analogy is more like four people living in and sharing the house. One is a plumber, the second is a professional chef, the third is an electrician, and the fourth is a a landscaper.

None of them charge the others for maintaining their shared house because they are all contributing to the general welfare of the group. Now, the plumber goes to roofing school (or whatever) and after the next big storm offers to fix the roof. The group has to buy the materials, but then the plumber says, don't worry guys, I'll only charge you an extra 10% the material cost instead of charging my normal fee for the labor.

I don't think he would be living there for very much longer. Do you?

Master Arminas

Except that in game terms... Nobody is considered Professional chef, electrician or landscaper..

They are considered adventurers, and unless they have ranks in those professions and the party has previously stated that they will be fulfilling these roles in the party and that the crafters sole role is to craft, then it is assumed everyone is doing equal amounts of every task. Except the crafter who is also burdend with 4 hours daily of crafting efforts for the party... It doesnt even begin to compare.

Sigh. You seriously cannot be that obtuse, can you? It was an analogy. The Rogue finds and disarms traps, he unlocks items secured, he spots dangers before they arrive, he uses his sneak attack to aid the rest in dispatching critters; the Cleric keeps the party moving, patching their wounds and bolstering their effectiveness with bluff spells; the Fighter stands in the front-lines, he protects those not as combat capable, he goes toe-to-toe with the nasiest critters in the book; the Wizard controls the battlefield, and shuts down lesser mooks with blasting spells and saves or dies.

The entire party functions like a . . . what was that word again, ah yes . . . a team. They don't cheat and rob each other, they work together. Yet, when the Wizard (for example) takes a crafting feat, he feels like he can turn a profit off of his friends, when the rules of the game prevent him from doing so with NPCs?

Too bad, so sad, jerk Wizard player ain't gonna be showing up at my games no more, no more, no more.

Master Arminas


Dr Grecko wrote:
Selgard wrote:

But of 4 folks are sharing 1 house and 1 guy is a plumber, its not beyond expectation that he'll keep the plumbing in check in the house without charging the other 3 guys the going professional rate for plumbers. Why? Because part of up keeping the house is, for him, doing the plumbing for the house. If he says "guys I'll fix this but I'm going to charge yuo all 45 bucks an hour" then he should expect everyone else to start nickle and diming *him* for all the things *they* do around the house for upkeep too. Mowing the lawn, trimming the hedges, doing the cooking, nailing a shingle on the roof if it gets blown off, repairing the .. well, you get the idea. You live together, you live as a group, you maintain the dwelling as a group. If one of yuo has a special skill that lets you maintain the dwelling, or upgrade the dwelling, cheaper... that doesn't mean you start charging the other guys for it.

Do you know how to cook? Do you live with folks who don't? Do you charge them to cook for them? If so- how'd that work out?

This analogy is flawed.

If we were to liken it to game terms. It is more like all four guys have to cook, clean, mow the lawn, ect.. Except the one guy who knows how to fix plumbing is being forced to fix it for free. he is being exploited for his ability in fixing plumbing that apparently breaks down enough that he is spending months at a time fixing it. Now it's not unreasonable for the other party members to chip in as compensation for his efforts.

This analogy is also flawed in that, plumbing benifits the whole household since they all use the plumbing. Crafting an item benifits one guy since he is the only one gaining the benifit of the item.

Except while he's doing the plumbing- that only he can do- the rest of the guys in the house are doing the other things.

The plumber isn't doing the whole groups work *and* plumbing. He's just using his share of the work to do the one work that only he can do. Since he did the plumbing the other guys are taking care of the other stuff that they can all do.

or to put it into game terms:
The group shouldnt' be out having tequila shots while the dude is upstairs crafting. he's doing group work- so should they be. the bard may be gathering intel in the tavern, coule guys went to the library to research a way to get through Big Bad's (whatever issue he has), another guy went out to the market to sell some of the loot they brought back from the Orcs lair.

If the group is out traveling they are taking watch, cooking supper, making camp, tending the horses, keeping the wizard company, and otherwise doing the things that need doing around the camp. While the crafter is crafting, they are doing the other things. Including things that might normally be his job to do. (like taking his turn at watch and such).

If your group really, truly has it where the guy crafting also has to do *everything else on earth* while the party sits around with their thumbs up their posterior aperature then the wizard doesn't need to charge for crafting, HE NEEDS TO FIND A NEW GROUP!

But as long as everyone is doing their share towards their common goal then charging them to make an item for them is just, quite frankly, insulting to the other characters.

-S


dragonfire8974 wrote:

I picked this party because i have general ideas for items, and this would allow large long range damage. the samurai is a switch hitter for when things close to melee

party without a crafter level 13 140k

i'm going a little over with most of these, but not much. and remember, this is just thrown together. I didn't give the wizard many consumables because i would have to know a lot about the campaign to properly tailor a wizard to it

** spoiler omitted **
** spoiler omitted **
** spoiler omitted **
** spoiler omitted **

party with a crafter wealth = 280k

** spoiler omitted **
** spoiler omitted **
** spoiler omitted **
** spoiler omitted **...

in this scenario, the wizard has taken 3 craft feats, maybe 4. that's my standard wizard. the wizard spends his spells detecting things and protecting the party from things that can't. i've just got the items for the wizard are generally placeholders, and aren't optimal

also there's a large number of slots, and i did not define what slots each item took up


Quote:
They are considered adventurers, and unless they have ranks in those professions and the party has previously stated that they will be fulfilling these roles in the party and that the crafters sole role is to craft, then it is assumed everyone is doing equal amounts of every task. Except the crafter who is also burdend with 4 hours daily of crafting efforts for the party... It doesnt even begin to compare.

That depends entirely upon what the rest of the group is doing. Everyone is assuming drinking and wenching. This does not often happen that much in the reality of an adventuring group.


Adamantine Dragon wrote:
Well good then. Because EVERYTHING benefits everyone. Unless the crafter is making a "+3 helm of purpleness" for someone who just likes purple. But pretty much any item any crafter would make for any party member is going to make the party more powerful in combat. So your rule works out great Dr. Grecko.

You're misinterpreting what I said. Party funds for party items, no cost as its for the party. 5% for individual items.


Selgard wrote:

or to put it into game terms:

The group shouldnt' be out having tequila shots while the dude is upstairs crafting. he's doing group work- so should they be. the bard may be gathering intel in the tavern, coule guys went to the library to research a way to get through Big Bad's (whatever issue he has), another guy went out to the market to sell some of the loot they brought back from the Orcs lair.

If the group is out traveling they are taking watch, cooking supper, making camp, tending the horses, keeping the wizard company, and otherwise doing the things that need doing around the camp. While the crafter is crafting, they are doing the other things. Including things that might normally be his job to do. (like taking his turn at watch and such).

If your group really, truly has it where the guy crafting also has to do *everything else on earth* while the party sits around with their thumbs up their posterior aperature then the wizard doesn't need to charge for crafting, HE NEEDS TO FIND A NEW GROUP!

But as long as everyone is doing their share towards their common goal then charging them to make an item for them is just, quite frankly, insulting to the other characters.

-S

with a ring of sustenance, a wizard can craft for 2 watches, sleep for 1, and be on watch for another assuming 4 2-hour watches. so the wizard can still have a full and interesting life


Charlie Bell wrote:

Abadaran dogma insists you charge for, and pay for, services and goods rendered.

So charge the other players for crafting. But insist on paying them for healing, spells cast, etc. You could even pay the fighter types for bodyguard/security services.

Actually, you could RP the above but handwave all the actual player-to-player gp transactions. "Bob, my records show that you still owe 200gp for that armor I crafted for you. However, I owe you 150gp for that lesser restoration you cast for me. Hit me with a cure light wounds and we'll call it even."

I like this idea. It's artful and satisfies all parties involved.


master arminas wrote:
...And you would be disappointed. I don't run a game where the Chris the Crafter can have twice as many magic items as the rest because he took crafting feats. He tries to pull that BS in my group; he will suffer; he will lose wealth; and if the player doesn't like it, he can find another game.

So you meta game your players? If because of his abilities he's able to have twice as many magic items as the rest of the group at the same level then he's doing something right. He's playing just as much as the other players.


I don't think the 4 guys with different professions is at all close.

I would say a closer analogy would be a shipping clerk, a quality inspector, a drafting engineer, and a maintenance technician. I'm not sure it really matches but let's say they live in the same building so there is some sharing of benifit.

They cooperate at work and help each other get their jobs done so their company is successful and they all get a paycheck. Now the first 3 say the maintenance guy has to fix everything around the house for free on his own time because he alreadys knows how to do it. Not only that, he has to make an addition on the house by himself even if he might not ever use it. Again for free because he already knows how.

But apparently there is no other change in shared responsibilites. Almost no one has said anthing equivalent to I will do something else for you on the weekends. Just you do all this for me for free since it doesn't use up all of your free time. That what friends do. The shipping clerk did not say, ok I'm good at forms I'll help you do your taxes. The tech did not say while your working on the addition I'll change the oil on your car. Just since at work we are supposed to cooperate therefore outside of work you have to do everything for all of us for free while we do nothing for you outside of work.

The other 3 could choose to learn how to help but chose not to do so. They are also choosing to not do anything for him to compensate him for his time and expertise.

If there is an even semi-reasonable exchange of favors then no you don't need to charge.


MJinthePitt wrote:
master arminas wrote:
...And you would be disappointed. I don't run a game where the Chris the Crafter can have twice as many magic items as the rest because he took crafting feats. He tries to pull that BS in my group; he will suffer; he will lose wealth; and if the player doesn't like it, he can find another game.
So you meta game your players? If because of his abilities he's able to have twice as many magic items as the rest of the group at the same level then he's doing something right. He's playing just as much as the other players.

The issue is doing doing it at the expense of the other players. Not that he has double the magic items.


Kydeem de'Morcaine wrote:

I don't think the 4 guys with different professions is at all close.

I would say a closer analogy would be a shipping clerk, a quality inspector, a drafting engineer, and a maintenance technician. I'm not sure it really matches but let's say they live in the same building so there is some sharing of benifit.

They cooperate at work and help each other get their jobs done so their company is successful and they all get a paycheck. Now the first 3 say the maintenance guy has to fix everything around the house for free on his own time because he alreadys knows how to do it. Not only that, he has to make an addition on the house by himself even if he might not ever use it. Again for free because he already knows how.

But apparently there is no other change in shared responsibilites. Almost no one has said anthing equivalent to I will do something else for you on the weekends. Just you do all this for me for free since it doesn't use up all of your free time. That what friends do. The shipping clerk did not say, ok I'm good at forms I'll help you do your taxes. The tech did not say while your working on the addition I'll change the oil on your car. Just since at work we are supposed to cooperate therefore outside of work you have to do everything for all of us for free while we do nothing for you outside of work.

The other 3 could choose to learn how to help but chose not to do so. They are also choosing to not do anything for him to compensate him for his time and expertise.

If there is an even semi resonable exchange of favors.

I think we can quit it with the real life analogies. Adventurers don't have real down times, merely points where they're not being actively murdered or murdering.


Matthew Morris wrote:

I'm just curious.

The "You're a jerk for charging" camp, would Wally Wizard be a jerk if he only crafted for himself?

It depends.

Wally the Wizard should always craft for himself first. Its his feat afterall and he's slave to no one.

However, when his crafting is done, he should be willing to craft for others. Not 24/7 not every waking moment-but if he's such a jerk that he just refuses to ever craft for someone else then once again we have someone who isn't a team player.

Folks in a group, on a team, are expected to spend at least some time working their skills for the team. If they can't be bothered to do so, then they are going to find themselves without a team.

What if the cleric refused to ever cast a spell on anyone else, period?
If he only used channel energy when he himself was injured.

If someone has a skill that can be used to benefit the group then that person ought to be willing to use that skill for the benefit of the group.
Slave? No. No one is chaining dude to a desk and forcing him to do things. But he should be wiling to spend at least some of his time for the group.

-S


Here's a fun question for the pro=charging crowd: Why can't each person in the group take a crafting feat apiece?

If it's a question of the division of labor why don't you just divide the labor?


Kydeem de'Morcaine wrote:
stuff

except i don't think anyone is suggesting no one help the crafter out with anything.


OH, actually there is a question i would like to ask, since it has actually come up, but no-one has touched on it.

People keep talking about the fact that you can only sell magic weapons to MERCHANTS at half market value, but what prevents the crafter from waiting for a fellow adventurer to come along and ask to buy the magic item at full price, just like all NPC crafters do?

What prevents the PC crafter from simply SELLING his wares at full price? What prevents him from inflating the party's WBL through this method to atronomical proportions?

It any vaguely sensible world, no-one bar the PC crafter is going to waste nearly a month of his time on one weapon, when he can make the same profit making smaller items that 'anyone' can afford.

NPC crafter: "Well, i CAN make you a +3 sword, Freddie Fighter, but you see, that will take me nearly 4 weeks, and you may very well be dead by then. On the other hand, i could use that time to make 25 cloaks of resistance, and i can promise you, i WILL find 25 people who can afford them before i find 1 who can pay for the sword..."

Sovereign Court RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8

That's what I thought. There's no point in taking a craft feat in your game then.

351 to 400 of 2,075 << first < prev | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | 8 | 9 | 10 | 11 | 12 | 13 | next > last >>
Community / Forums / Pathfinder / Pathfinder First Edition / Advice / Creating magical item for the party + small fee on the work = players uprorar? All Messageboards