Creating magical item for the party + small fee on the work = players uprorar?


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Banatine wrote:

OH, actually there is a question i would like to ask, since it has actually come up, but no-one has touched on it.

People keep talking about the fact that you can only sell magic weapons to MERCHANTS at half market value, but what prevents the crafter from waiting for a fellow adventurer to come along and ask to buy the magic item at full price, just like all NPC crafters do?

What prevents the PC crafter from simply SELLING his wares at full price? What prevents him from inflating the party's WBL through this method to atronomical proportions?

It any vaguely sensible world, no-one bar the PC crafter is going to waste nearly a month of his time on one weapon, when he can make the same profit making smaller items that 'anyone' can afford.

NPC crafter: "Well, i CAN make you a +3 sword, Freddie Fighter, but you see, that will take me nearly 4 weeks, and you may very well be dead by then. On the other hand, i could use that time to make 25 cloaks of resistance, and i can promise you, i WILL find 25 people who can afford them before i find 1 who can pay for the sword..."

the problem is finding the adventure with the money without the item who needs it


Matthew Morris wrote:
That's what I thought. There's no point in taking a craft feat in your game then.

except for increasing your power and the power of your companions


TarkXT wrote:

Here's a fun question for the pro=charging crowd: Why can't each person in the group take a crafting feat apiece?

If it's a question of the division of labor why don't you just divide the labor?

Personally I'd be fine with that but again this assumes we are dividing the labor which hasn't been discussed thus far the assumption has been crafter is crafting everyone else does whatever they like in some groups that whatever is directly beneficial to the group in some cases it is drinking and wenching (the latter would be the case in my group)

I think the vast majority of us in the procharge group would find the idea of all sharing the burden of crafting then sharing the benefits to be acceptable.


dragonfire8974 wrote:
except i don't think anyone is suggesting no one help the crafter out with anything.

Yes, alot of posts were saying exactly that.

They specifically said: We are a team, why should he get anything. That's what he is supposed to do, why should he get anything for it. If he doesn't make magic items for me for free, then I will charge him for every hit I take. If he doesn't make things for free he is stealing from me. Wizards always take craft feats anyway why should I give him anything for it.

It wasn't until what page 8 where almost anyone would comment on whether the suggestion of an exchange of down time services was acceptable. Just I already give my service during adventure time so he has to donate his down time to me.

I've seen several groups that played that way. They browbeat someone into playing a caster that takes all the item creation feats just so he can make whatever the rest of the group wants whenever they want completely without regard to what he wants to do. One time i played a caster without item creation in one of those groups. I was treated like I was betraying the group because I wasn't their free factory.


Banatine wrote:

OH, actually there is a question i would like to ask, since it has actually come up, but no-one has touched on it.

People keep talking about the fact that you can only sell magic weapons to MERCHANTS at half market value, but what prevents the crafter from waiting for a fellow adventurer to come along and ask to buy the magic item at full price, just like all NPC crafters do?

What prevents the PC crafter from simply SELLING his wares at full price? What prevents him from inflating the party's WBL through this method to atronomical proportions?

It any vaguely sensible world, no-one bar the PC crafter is going to waste nearly a month of his time on one weapon, when he can make the same profit making smaller items that 'anyone' can afford.

NPC crafter: "Well, i CAN make you a +3 sword, Freddie Fighter, but you see, that will take me nearly 4 weeks, and you may very well be dead by then. On the other hand, i could use that time to make 25 cloaks of resistance, and i can promise you, i WILL find 25 people who can afford them before i find 1 who can pay for the sword..."

You put a lot of faith in your GM playing to the advantage of your crafting character....


Banatine wrote:

OH, actually there is a question i would like to ask, since it has actually come up, but no-one has touched on it.

People keep talking about the fact that you can only sell magic weapons to MERCHANTS at half market value, but what prevents the crafter from waiting for a fellow adventurer to come along and ask to buy the magic item at full price, just like all NPC crafters do?

What prevents the PC crafter from simply SELLING his wares at full price? What prevents him from inflating the party's WBL through this method to atronomical proportions?

It any vaguely sensible world, no-one bar the PC crafter is going to waste nearly a month of his time on one weapon, when he can make the same profit making smaller items that 'anyone' can afford.

NPC crafter: "Well, i CAN make you a +3 sword, Freddie Fighter, but you see, that will take me nearly 4 weeks, and you may very well be dead by then. On the other hand, i could use that time to make 25 cloaks of resistance, and i can promise you, i WILL find 25 people who can afford them before i find 1 who can pay for the sword..."

This is not meant in any smartass way: but quite frankly, the rules prevent it.

The rules say that when selling them you get 1/2 the market price, not full price. If your DM wants to deviate from it, thats their business. Nothing is stopping the DM. But the rules say otherwise. It would be a houserule for the DM to allow you to craft (or find) something and sell it for more than 1/2 price.
good/bad/wrong? not at all. Just a deviation from the rules.

-S


master arminas wrote:

Sigh. You seriously cannot be that obtuse, can you? It was an analogy. The Rogue finds and disarms traps, he unlocks items secured, he spots dangers before they arrive, he uses his sneak attack to aid the rest in dispatching critters; the Cleric keeps the party moving, patching their wounds and bolstering their effectiveness with bluff spells; the Fighter stands in the front-lines, he protects those not as combat capable, he goes toe-to-toe with the nasiest critters in the book; the Wizard controls the battlefield, and shuts down lesser mooks with blasting spells and saves or dies.

The entire party functions like a . . . what was that word again, ah yes . . . a team. They don't cheat and rob each other, they work together. Yet, when the Wizard (for example) takes a crafting feat, he feels like he can turn a profit off of his friends, when the rules of the game prevent him from doing so with NPCs?

Too bad, so sad, jerk Wizard player ain't gonna be showing up at my games no more, no more, no more.

Thanks for the insult.... Of course it was an analogy. A poor one at that. Yes, everyone has thier defined roles in the party.. Except that only the crafter has spent his resources and time and effort in increasing everyone else's effectiveness and monetary situation. If you consider it bieng a jerk to expect to be compensated fairly for this, then I wouldn't play a crafter in your campaign. There are better uses of my time and feats.


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Kydeem de'Morcaine wrote:
dragonfire8974 wrote:
except i don't think anyone is suggesting no one help the crafter out with anything.

Yes, alot of posts were saying exactly that.

They specifically said we are a team why should he get anything. That's what he is supposed to do, why should he get anything for it. If he doesn't make magic items for me for free then I will charge him for every hit I take. If he doesn't make things for free he is stealing from me. Wizards always take craftfeats anyway why should I give him anything for it.

I've seen several groups that played that way. They browbeat someone into playing a caster that takes all the item creation feats just so he can make whatever the rest of the group wants whenever they want completely without regard to what he wants to do. One time i played a caster without item creation in one of those groups. I was treated like I was betraying the group because I wasn't their free factory.

I truly hope you found a new group. Those guys sound like a bunch of jerks, who I wouldn't want to game with. :\

No one's suggesting folks force feats on others. No one is suggesting forced crafting. They are however suggesting that groups work as a group, not as one player trying to one up the rest of them financially by swiping their gold and then trying to act like he's doing them a favor.

For some reason folks here think that its perfectly acceptable for someone to charge for using his feats for the groupl, while its not acceptable for others to do so. I have no idea why.

If you charge me to use your feat, i'm going to charge you to use mine.
Why does that make me wrong?
Answer: It doesn't. It just points out the underlying truth: that charging you team mates to use feats is not good.
No matter what feat it is. Charging your buddies to use your feats is not good.
And if it *is* good, then whats good for the wizard is good for the barbarian or rogue. If you can charge for your stuff so can they. Why should the wealth flow one direction?

-S


Here's the bottom line as I see it.

If a player builds a PC with the express purpose of taking crafting feats so that he can charge his fellow PCs for his services, that would not sit well with me, or with just about any player I have ever gamed with. I am not adventuring so that you can take my money and get rich while I put my life on the line to protect you.

If a player builds a PC with the express purpose of taking crafting feats to make items for the party so that the party is stronger, then that PC should not have any reason to ask for a surcharge for his services, and so the issue should never come up.

Somewhere in the middle would be the player who builds a PC with crafting feats but expects that his "extra effort" be rewarded by the party. That situation assumes a couple of things. First it assumes that the crafter is doing more effort for the party during "down time" than the other characters. Honestly this has never been the case in any game I've played. During downtime every character has something they are doing. The rogue is sneaking about looking for clues for the next campaign hook. The paladin is schmoozing with royalty trying to find a sponsor. The cleric is volunteering with the local church to build goodwill in case the party needs an expensive spell at some point...

Everyone is contributing.

If one PC is slacking off while the rest of the party is working for the good of the party, then that character needs to be talked to.

The idea that a crafter necessarily invests more of his time and so should get some special gold dispensation for his efforts is almost always untrue. It has never been true in any games I've played in. So that whole argument falls flat on its face. The crafter is doing his part, just like the rogue (who is risking discovery, arrest or murder in the dark) the paladin (who is risking angering powerful movers and shakers) and the cleric (who is risking nothing, but is spending a lot of time with sick and injured people....)


Selgard wrote:
stuff

+1


Dr Grecko wrote:
master arminas wrote:

Sigh. You seriously cannot be that obtuse, can you? It was an analogy. The Rogue finds and disarms traps, he unlocks items secured, he spots dangers before they arrive, he uses his sneak attack to aid the rest in dispatching critters; the Cleric keeps the party moving, patching their wounds and bolstering their effectiveness with bluff spells; the Fighter stands in the front-lines, he protects those not as combat capable, he goes toe-to-toe with the nasiest critters in the book; the Wizard controls the battlefield, and shuts down lesser mooks with blasting spells and saves or dies.

The entire party functions like a . . . what was that word again, ah yes . . . a team. They don't cheat and rob each other, they work together. Yet, when the Wizard (for example) takes a crafting feat, he feels like he can turn a profit off of his friends, when the rules of the game prevent him from doing so with NPCs?

Too bad, so sad, jerk Wizard player ain't gonna be showing up at my games no more, no more, no more.

Thanks for the insult.... Of course it was an analogy. A poor one at that. Yes, everyone has thier defined roles in the party.. Except that only the crafter has spent his resources and time and effort in increasing everyone else's effectiveness and monetary situation. If you consider it bieng a jerk to expect to be compensated fairly for this, then I wouldn't play a crafter in your campaign. There are better uses of my time and feats.

The issue is this:

You are asking to get compensated twice for doing one thing.

You make fighter's sword from +1 to +2.
The group benefits. ergo you benefit.
Also: You want to persoanlly benefit, by swiping his gold.

You already gain a benefit by crafting for your group. You don't get to double dip and call it "fair". its not fair. You are double dipping.

The game isn't a contest between players. Its a group effort for the group to do thigns as a group for whatever goal the group is attempting to achieve. If you are trying to achieve economic superiority might I suggest you change to Monopoly? It is a game more directly aimed at that activity.
I don't play D&D to compete with the other players. I don't play the game for the other players to try and "one up" me. If you craft an item I need or upgrade an item that I have, you are doing it for the group. You aren't doing something for *me*. You are doing it for *everyone*. Yourself included.
The fighter is taking power attack to drop critters faster for everyone.
Everyone is doing their part to make the group better, stronger, faster, more effective. No one but the crafter is trying to charge the group to do it.
Why is the crafter doing it? Answer; He shouldn't be. If he has decided to take the feat he should be willing to use it for the benefit of the group. If he is only taking it to rob the players of their cash, then you are right- he shouldn't bother taking the feat at all.
If you are taking feats to steal the money from your other players then there *are* better uses of feats and resources. Preferably ones without the stated goal of robbing your team mates.

-S


Adamantine Dragon wrote:

Here's the bottom line as I see it.

If a player builds a PC with the express purpose of taking crafting feats so that he can charge his fellow PCs for his services, that would not sit well with me, or with just about any player I have ever gamed with. I am not adventuring so that you can take my money and get rich while I put my life on the line to protect you.

If a player builds a PC with the express purpose of taking crafting feats to make items for the party so that the party is stronger, then that PC should not have any reason to ask for a surcharge for his services, and so the issue should never come up.

Somewhere in the middle would be the player who builds a PC with crafting feats but expects that his "extra effort" be rewarded by the party. That situation assumes a couple of things. First it assumes that the crafter is doing more effort for the party during "down time" than the other characters. Honestly this has never been the case in any game I've played. During downtime every character has something they are doing. The rogue is sneaking about looking for clues for the next campaign hook. The paladin is schmoozing with royalty trying to find a sponsor. The cleric is volunteering with the local church to build goodwill in case the party needs an expensive spell at some point...

Everyone is contributing.

If one PC is slacking off while the rest of the party is working for the good of the party, then that character needs to be talked to.

The idea that a crafter necessarily invests more of his time and so should get some special gold dispensation for his efforts is almost always untrue. It has never been true in any games I've played in. So that whole argument falls flat on its face. The crafter is doing his part, just like the rogue (who is risking discovery, arrest or murder in the dark) the paladin (who is risking angering powerful movers and shakers) and the cleric (who is risking nothing, but is spending a lot of time with sick and injured people....)

+1 to the lot of it.

If someone in your group isn't pulling their weight, talk to them about it. That doesn't make it a license to start charging players to use your feats for the group.

-S

Sovereign Court RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8

dragonfire8974 wrote:
Matthew Morris wrote:
That's what I thought. There's no point in taking a craft feat in your game then.
except for increasing your power and the power of your companions

Which lessens your power, per the FAQ.

That the crafter's WBL will effectively be greater is compensated by his taking the feat. IF the crafter skews everyone else's WBL, the GM will need to reduce the loot received, thus negating the 'advantage' given by the WBL.

Heck, by including a 'surcharge' the Wizard is making the job easier for the GM because he's pulling 'ahead' so the reduction in treasure doesn't affect him as much.

In short, I'm reading...

You're a jerk if you take the feat and don't make crap I want for free.
You're a jerk if you take the feat and only make crap for yourself.
You're a jerk if you use the feat to enhance your WBL (which the feat is designed to do) but don't give everyone else the benefit of your sacrifice, which would put you behind.

So why should I take the feat at those tables at all?


Matthew Morris wrote:


In short, I'm reading...

You're a jerk if you take the feat and don't make crap I want for free.
You're a jerk if you take the feat and only make crap for yourself.
You're a jerk if you use the feat to enhance your WBL (which the feat is designed to do) but don't give everyone else the benefit of your sacrifice, which would put you behind.

So why should I take the feat at those tables at all?

Because you can be not a jerk and contribute something meaningful to the party for no personal gain beyond what the team gains from your efforts.

You know, like the fighter who takes power attack so he can kill more quickly, keeping you from getting hit as often. Or the witch who takes "extra hex" so he can take "healing hex" and heal you when you are injured. Like the...

Oh hell, what's the point. None of the wanna-be Rockefellers in the thread care.


As others have explained -- it's not a charge for using my feat; it's a charge for using my time.

And, yes, if we have a month of down time in town and you, the wizard, want me, the fighter, to be your bodyguard for a week, I expect you to pay me.

If you, the fighter, want me, the rogue, to swipe something for you, I expect you to pay me.

If I, the bard, want to spend my month in town acting for a local theater troop and earning gold, that gold is mine and the rest of the party doesn't get it.

When we're off the clock, our time is our own, and it's completely reasonable for any character to ask for compensation if another character wants him to spend time on something.


dragonfire8974 wrote:
Banatine wrote:

OH, actually there is a question i would like to ask, since it has actually come up, but no-one has touched on it.

People keep talking about the fact that you can only sell magic weapons to MERCHANTS at half market value, but what prevents the crafter from waiting for a fellow adventurer to come along and ask to buy the magic item at full price, just like all NPC crafters do?

What prevents the PC crafter from simply SELLING his wares at full price? What prevents him from inflating the party's WBL through this method to atronomical proportions?

It any vaguely sensible world, no-one bar the PC crafter is going to waste nearly a month of his time on one weapon, when he can make the same profit making smaller items that 'anyone' can afford.

NPC crafter: "Well, i CAN make you a +3 sword, Freddie Fighter, but you see, that will take me nearly 4 weeks, and you may very well be dead by then. On the other hand, i could use that time to make 25 cloaks of resistance, and i can promise you, i WILL find 25 people who can afford them before i find 1 who can pay for the sword..."

the problem is finding the adventure with the money without the item who needs it

NPCs never seem short of people to sell them to. Any sensible, paranoid nobleman is going to want things like rings of protection, cloaks of resistance, and the like. You will NEVER be short of buyers for the cheapest of magic things, so why wouldn't you just make nothing but your 'guaranteed sellers'?

This is something i would actually ask of ALL crafters. In reality, if i'm taking almost 2 months of my time to make you a +5 sword, it's gonna cost you 50K, BUT i'm gonna take at least half of it up front. The crafter is taking a massive risk, making you such an expensive and powerful weapon, he has to be certain he is going to be worth his while. And he's an utter fool if he doesn't do something like that.

If you want it cheaper, you know what to do. And in all honestly, you should be thankful your allowed ANY discount. No-one amongst you IRL would expect your friends to do almost 2 months of work for you for NOTHING in return. Why would you expect it in the game?


AvalonXQ wrote:

As others have explained -- it's not a charge for using my feat; it's a charge for using my time.

And, yes, if we have a month of down time in town and you, the wizard, want me, the fighter, to be your bodyguard for a week, I expect you to pay me.

If you, the fighter, want me, the rogue, to swipe something for you, I expect you to pay me.

If I, the bard, want to spend my month in town acting for a local theater troop and earning gold, that gold is mine and the rest of the party doesn't get it.

When we're off the clock, our time is our own, and it's completely reasonable for any character to ask for compensation if another character wants him to spend time on something.

And as I have shown, EVERY PC usually has something they are doing for the group during their downtime. For the crafter to charge for their time crafting is the same thing as the paladin coming back and demanding payment for having spent the past four weeks schmoozing up the local fighter's guild leadership.

In a well-run party every party member has down-time assignments for the good of the party.

The crafter is just the only one doing it in the comfort of their own home, with the wife and kids nearby.

Sovereign Court RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8

Adamantine Dragon wrote:
Matthew Morris wrote:


In short, I'm reading...

You're a jerk if you take the feat and don't make crap I want for free.
You're a jerk if you take the feat and only make crap for yourself.
You're a jerk if you use the feat to enhance your WBL (which the feat is designed to do) but don't give everyone else the benefit of your sacrifice, which would put you behind.

So why should I take the feat at those tables at all?

Because you can be not a jerk and contribute something meaningful to the party for no personal gain beyond what the team gains from your efforts.

You know, like the fighter who takes power attack so he can kill more quickly, keeping you from getting hit as often. Or the witch who takes "extra hex" so he can take "healing hex" and heal you when you are injured. Like the...

Oh hell, what's the point. None of the wanna-be Rockefellers in the thread care.

I agree,

When you won't admit that crafting other's items ends up reducing your WBL, there's no point in talking with people who's reply to everything is 'you're a jerk'.


Adamantine Dragon wrote:


And as I have shown, EVERY PC usually has something they are doing for the group during their downtime. For the crafter to charge for their time crafting is the same thing as the paladin coming back and demanding payment for having spent the past four weeks schmoozing up the local fighter's guild leadership.

In a well-run party every party member has down-time assignments for the good of the party.

The crafter is just the only one doing it in the comfort of their own home, with the wife and kids nearby.

That isn't proof AD that's anecdotal evidence just because some parties play downtime that way does not mean that all parties do or that all parties should. In fact many people have pointed out that they do NOT play the downtime that way at all, in those groups the crafter is the only one you expect to be putting in his downtime that way.


gnomersy wrote:
Adamantine Dragon wrote:


And as I have shown, EVERY PC usually has something they are doing for the group during their downtime. For the crafter to charge for their time crafting is the same thing as the paladin coming back and demanding payment for having spent the past four weeks schmoozing up the local fighter's guild leadership.

In a well-run party every party member has down-time assignments for the good of the party.

The crafter is just the only one doing it in the comfort of their own home, with the wife and kids nearby.

That isn't proof AD that's anecdotal evidence just because some parties play downtime that way does not mean that all parties do or that all parties should. In fact many people have pointed out that they do NOT play the downtime that way at all in those groups the crafter is the only one you expect to be putting in his downtime that way.

Well, in those groups, if I were the crafter, I'd be partying too. Problem solved.


Matthew Morris wrote:

I agree,

When you won't admit that crafting other's items ends up reducing your WBL, there's no point in talking with people who's reply to everything is 'you're a jerk'.

My reply to "everything" isn't "you're a jerk." My reply to "I want my PC to craft items and make my party pay a surcharge for it" is "your PC's a jerk."

How is crafting for everyone in the party reducing your WBL if you are crafting for yourself too?


Adamantine Dragon wrote:
Matthew Morris wrote:

I agree,

When you won't admit that crafting other's items ends up reducing your WBL, there's no point in talking with people who's reply to everything is 'you're a jerk'.

My reply to "everything" isn't "you're a jerk." My reply to "I want my PC to craft items and make my party pay a surcharge for it" is "your PC's a jerk."

How is crafting for everyone in the party reducing your WBL if you are crafting for yourself too?

Because in order to maintain WBL for everyone to limit OP antics the DM reduces loot value to half that of before so that everyone is at WBL whereas if its only the Wizard who has too much money he may overlook it as being part of the point of buying the crafting feat.


AvalonXQ wrote:

As others have explained -- it's not a charge for using my feat; it's a charge for using my time.

And, yes, if we have a month of down time in town and you, the wizard, want me, the fighter, to be your bodyguard for a week, I expect you to pay me.

If you, the fighter, want me, the rogue, to swipe something for you, I expect you to pay me.

If I, the bard, want to spend my month in town acting for a local theater troop and earning gold, that gold is mine and the rest of the party doesn't get it.

When we're off the clock, our time is our own, and it's completely reasonable for any character to ask for compensation if another character wants him to spend time on something.

Then you, the wizard, will be left behind the next time we go adventuring because you lack the requisite team mentality.

If the Wizard needs someone to guard him while he crafts the fighter should volunteer unless there is something else he needs to be doing for the group. Maybe the rogue can sub in for him while he does whatever it is, and they trade off or something.

If your character is so self centered as to think they get to charge me for their feat then my character is self centered enough to leave them behind and find someone else with a better outlook towards the group.

Teams don't charge each other to help each other. They do it because they are the group. You charge folks for what you do, when those folks aren't part of your group.

If everyone in the group is spending the down time in some group meaningful way, why does only one get to charge the group for it?
Can the cleric charge for sshmoozing with the temple? Can the bard and paladin for schmoozing with the nobles? Can the rogue charge the group for time spent gathering intel at the tavern, thieve's guild or library?

If the rogue came back from the library and said "DUDE I found the most AWESOMe weakness for the guy wer'e going up against! Took me three weeks- that'll be 200 gold a piece please and then I'll tell you".
"200 gold? no way dude"
"way man, that was 2 weeks I used my skills to benefit the group. Pay up or I keep quiet. Your choice."

do I know what You would say? No. but I know what I'd say.
that rogue wouldn't be the party rogue for very long. He'd be *fired*.

You get paid the same way the group does: by going out and kicking the tails of the bad guys, rolling the bodies and selling (or keeping) the goods. You do Not get paid by charging your group for what you do. Or if you do- expect them to operate in kind.

That'll be 20 gold per power attack please. Oh wait, I leveled up, my power attack went up a tick, that'll be 40 gold per. Oh look I got a 3rd attack! thats another 40 gold per full attack.. WOOHOO.. You guys make sure and pay up".
Would you seriously tolerate that? Honestly?
I know I wouldn't.
And I wouldn't tolerate it from the crafter either.

-S


Adamantine Dragon wrote:

How is crafting for everyone in the party reducing your WBL if you are crafting for yourself too?

Wait... is the crafter compensating the party for all that downtime they have to take twiddling their thumbs waiting for him to finish crafting his stuff?

I reckon they should each charge a fee, because otherwise they could be out adventuring and earning cash, but now they have to sit in a tavern being penalised so he can make cool stuff all for his own personal benefit...


CHRIS THE CRAFTER: Ah, there. The final touches of paint and my part-time store is now open for business. I'll make a killing selling these magical trinkets to the people of the community here. Muhahahahaha.

(Knock on the door)

CHRIS THE CRAFTER: Hello? (Opens to the door to see the town sheriff, a magistrate, and the head of the local guild of shop-keepers).

SHERIFF: Good day, citizen. I have a notice to present to you.

CHRIS THE CRAFTER (reads the notice, his jaw drops): A restraining order!?!

GUILD-LEADER: Against you selling these items; it includes an immediate cease-and-desist order against this store being opened--and a warrant for the collection of all these . . . trinkets . . . as evidence.

CHRIS THE CRAFTER: You can't do this! I have every right to sell my stuff!

MAGISTRATE: Oh? Care to show us your guild membership papers? Your permit from the city to store these dangerous magical items? Your security plans for storing these items safely so that our fair town does not become overrun with thieves seeking your wares?

SHERIFF: Yep. We have rules in this town, buddy-boy, and you've just broke them. Trying to put my brother-in-law out of business? I've heard how undercut his prices with your own companions--I'm not going to stand by and see you destroy our town's local economy.

CHRIS THE CRAFTER: But, but, you don't understand! I just want to open a shop!

MAGISTRATE: Why would a wizard want to open a shop? Ridiculous! Preposterous! And you didn't even bother to join the guild; we should throw you in jail for ignoring our ordinances.

Yeah, open that shop. See how much trouble you can get it.

Master Arminas


gnomersy wrote:


Because in order to maintain WBL for everyone to limit OP antics the DM reduces loot value to half that of before so that everyone is at WBL whereas if its only the Wizard who has too much money he may overlook it as being part of the point of buying the crafting feat.

So you are saying that crafting for your team reduces the wizard's WBL because the GM will not overlook the wizard's WBL being too high?

Am I getting that right? You are actually coming right and and saying that the reason you are opposed to not charging for crafting is because it doesn't let your wizard gain more wealth than the rest of the party?

Well, I have to give you points for being openly honest about your naked greed if I'm understanding this right.


master arminas wrote:

MAGISTRATE: Why would a wizard want to open a shop? Ridiculous! Preposterous! And you didn't even bother to join the guild; we should throw you in jail for ignoring our ordinances.

Is that before or after Fat Tony sends 'the boys' around to rob the place?

Guildless mark with a shop full of tasty valuables? niiiice.


Adamantine Dragon wrote:
gnomersy wrote:


Because in order to maintain WBL for everyone to limit OP antics the DM reduces loot value to half that of before so that everyone is at WBL whereas if its only the Wizard who has too much money he may overlook it as being part of the point of buying the crafting feat.

So you are saying that crafting for your team reduces the wizard's WBL because the GM will not overlook the wizard's WBL being too high?

Am I getting that right? You are actually coming right and and saying that the reason you are opposed to not charging for crafting is because it doesn't let your wizard gain more wealth than the rest of the party?

Well, I have to give you points for being openly honest about your naked greed if I'm understanding this right.

SKR wrote:
If you're looking at the party's overall wealth by level, you have to count crafted items at their Cost. Otherwise, if you counted crafted items at their Price, the crafting character would look like she had more wealth than appropriate for her level, and the GM would have to to bring this closer to the target gear value by reducing future treasure for that character, which means eventually that character has the same gear value as a non-crafting character--in effect neutralizing any advantage of having that feat at all.

He is referring to this quote, and I beleive the basic point is that the intent of the feats was that only the feat taker should be benefitting. i guess they never meant for the feats to be about "CHEESE, FOR EVERYONE!"

Scarab Sages

I would not have a problem. You took a feat to save people some cash, and improve THEIR character with a way discounted item. Now if you want to become more effective as a wizard, and you cannot find someone to swap spells with, you have to buy them. This also ultimately helps the party, at your expense. 10% is very fair. Your character could sell to the open public for full price and hire adventurers to accompany him instead of them.

Would you change them for a remove curse? Dispel Magic? Identify? Haste? Protection from Evil? I doubt it. Now if the cleric were to make you a potion of lesser restoration, why not give him 10% for taking a feat to help not only himself but everyone else? Plus maybe he could donate it to his diety.


Indivar wrote:

I would not have a problem. You took a feat to save people some cash, and improve THEIR character with a way discounted item. Now if you want to become more effective as a wizard, and you cannot find someone to swap spells with, you have to buy them. This also ultimately helps the party, at your expense. 10% is very fair. Your character could sell to the open public for full price and hire adventurers to accompany him instead of them.

Would you change them for a remove curse? Dispel Magic? Identify? Haste? Protection from Evil? I doubt it. Now if the cleric were to make you a potion of lesser restoration, why not give him 10% for taking a feat to help not only himself but everyone else? Plus maybe he could donate it to his diety.

Indivar, apparently you are not aware of how crafting rules work in the game. You cannot make magic items and sell them to the public by RAW. You can only sell them at 1/2 price, which is exactly what you have to pay to make them.

So what you are suggesting here is for the crafting player and GM to conspire to fudge the rules so that one player can become wealthy.

Good luck with gaming in that group.


Adamantine Dragon wrote:


In a well-run party every party member has down-time assignments for the good of the party.

Not every group has the same ideas of what well run party is. The "down time assignments" sounds very commanding and dictatorial. I wouldn't want to be forced to play my character during non adventure roleplay time how somebody else or a group wants me to.

Not everybody plays the same. What you are saying is if they don't play in a certain way with certain assumptions they are having wrong fun.

Some groups actually have downtime, not just looking for more work time. Some groups go with a narrative game where long spans occur between hooks. Or they are content to let the hooks find them. What the characters do in their downtime can be profitable, or they can just put their guy into RP stasis, or roll a bunch of skill checks to earn non cash rewards for their character. Its up to the player what they want to do, short of a railroaded have to do x and y so z can happen campaign. Players are free to make their own goals and are justified to charge people for non adventure related things.

What the "profiteers" are saying is they have justification, both fluff and in the rules (intent and written) for what they are doing. They rightly think that the party has no business in how they run their character short of role abandonment in adventures.

What the "free stuff" crowd is saying is that the fruits of your labor belong to us as a group.

Also, what is wrong with greed? Its a powerful motivator, and gets people to act in ways that are often beneficial to everyone. If you don't like the price, you can pass on it. He might lower it to something you will pay for. Mutual greed sets the proper price for something. Its greed that makes player want items for free, its greed that makes people want to craft items in the first place. After all, isn't what most adventurers do is kill people and take their stuff?


2 people marked this as a favorite.
notabot wrote:


Also, what is wrong with greed? Its a powerful motivator, and gets people to act in ways that are often beneficial to everyone. If you don't like the price, you can pass on it. He might lower it to something you will pay for. Mutual greed sets the proper price for something. Its greed that makes player want items for free, its greed that makes people want to craft items in the first place. After all, isn't what most adventurers do is kill people and take their stuff?

"KARZOUG! We found you at last! Surrender yourself peacefully and you shall remain unharmed! If you resist you pay with your life!"


Banatine wrote:
Adamantine Dragon wrote:
gnomersy wrote:


Because in order to maintain WBL for everyone to limit OP antics the DM reduces loot value to half that of before so that everyone is at WBL whereas if its only the Wizard who has too much money he may overlook it as being part of the point of buying the crafting feat.

So you are saying that crafting for your team reduces the wizard's WBL because the GM will not overlook the wizard's WBL being too high?

Am I getting that right? You are actually coming right and and saying that the reason you are opposed to not charging for crafting is because it doesn't let your wizard gain more wealth than the rest of the party?

Well, I have to give you points for being openly honest about your naked greed if I'm understanding this right.

SKR wrote:
If you're looking at the party's overall wealth by level, you have to count crafted items at their Cost. Otherwise, if you counted crafted items at their Price, the crafting character would look like she had more wealth than appropriate for her level, and the GM would have to to bring this closer to the target gear value by reducing future treasure for that character, which means eventually that character has the same gear value as a non-crafting character--in effect neutralizing any advantage of having that feat at all.

He is referring to this quote, and I beleive the basic point is that the intent of the feats was that only the feat taker should be benefitting. i guess they never meant for the feats to be about "CHEESE, FOR EVERYONE!"

That would be the idea yes. And I really think of it less as greed than I do of it being a different way to invest in power via a feat. A feat is supposed to give you something otherwise the only feats would be teamwork feats, the point of the crafting feat is to net you either more money or more customization and in both cases that is supposed to net you more power somehow. If that isn't how you want it to be played then cool just make sure everyone knows that before you let them take crafting feats so they know it won't make their character any more effective.


notabot wrote:
Adamantine Dragon wrote:


In a well-run party every party member has down-time assignments for the good of the party.

Not every group has the same ideas of what well run party is. The "down time assignments" sounds very commanding and dictatorial. I wouldn't want to be forced to play my character during non adventure roleplay time how somebody else or a group wants me to.

Funny, in the 30 years I've been playing this game, every time I have things to do during "downtime" between assignments, I've seen that as one of the fun and engaging parts of the game. Particularly since that tends to happen between real life gaming sessions and I can email the GM and other characters with my progress, get status from them, modify plans and otherwise continue gaming while at work or on vacation... Somehow nobody has ever had to "force" me to do my share for the group.

notabot wrote:
Not everybody plays the same. What you are saying is if they don't play in a certain way with certain assumptions they are having wrong fun.

Ah yes, the obligatory "I disagree with you therefore I DAMN THEE with the BADWRONGFUN curse! muhahahahah!!!" Thanks I've been waiting for that. Now we can move on.

notabot wrote:
Some groups actually have downtime, not just looking for more work time. Some groups go with a narrative game where long spans occur between hooks. Or they are content to let the hooks find them. What the characters do in their downtime can be profitable, or they can just put their guy into RP stasis, or roll a bunch of skill checks to earn non cash rewards for their character. Its up to the player what they want to do, short of a railroaded have to do x and y so z can happen campaign. Players are free to make their own goals and are justified to charge people for non adventure related things.

Yeah, my groups have downtime too. But they have that in addition to interim group work. Sometimes that downtime is spent gambling, whoring, whatever. We all need breaks, even player characters. Hey, you know what? Our crafters get that too.

notabot wrote:
What the "profiteers" are saying is they have justification, both fluff and in the rules (intent and written) for what they are doing. They rightly think that the party has no business in how they run their character short of role abandonment in adventures.

Play your characters how you like. The OP asked what we thought about it. This is what I think about it. I think PCs who charge more than cost for magic items are jerk PCs. That's how I roll. If you try it in my party, there will be consequences. Maybe even FUN consequences as we role play the party dynamics. Might be worth trying out.

notabot wrote:
What the "free stuff" crowd is saying is that the fruits of your labor belong to us as a group.

Nope. Not even close. What we are saying is that you shouldn't exploit your adventuring partners for cash. Write poetry. Weave baskets. Sell fruit. I don't care. But don't overcharge me for a magic sword and pocket the difference while I'm using the sword to save your ass.

notabot wrote:

Also, what is wrong with greed? Its a powerful motivator, and gets people to act in ways that are often beneficial to everyone. If you don't like the price, you can pass on it. He might lower it to something you will pay for. Mutual greed sets the proper price for something. Its greed that makes player want items for free, its greed that makes people want to craft items in the first place. After all, isn't what most adventurers do is kill people and take their stuff?

Ah, the Gordon Gekko defense! Nicely done. Hey, I know what! Greed is so good, and you've demonstrated it so well by overcharging me for that sword, that now you can pay me for every blow I take while you hide behind me. Greed is good after all. And those heals and buffs you've been getting? Here's your menu. Pick a little something from column A, and maybe a few from Column B!

You ain't never had a friend like me.


Gnomersy, of course those crafting feats makes their characters more effective! They can craft exactly the items they want, instead of buying what a store has on-hand or relying on the loot of dead enemies. That is a major advantage to having the crafting feats.

I disagree with SRK (surprise, surprise), because any feat that allows the character to break Wealth by Level is a broken feat. The crafter shouldn't get 440,000 gp more than non-crafts at Level 20. He is, however, able to ensure that he can make what he wants, not what he finds.

And that should be more than enough reason to take the feat.

Master Arminas


Shifty wrote:
Adamantine Dragon wrote:

How is crafting for everyone in the party reducing your WBL if you are crafting for yourself too?

Wait... is the crafter compensating the party for all that downtime they have to take twiddling their thumbs waiting for him to finish crafting his stuff?

I reckon they should each charge a fee, because otherwise they could be out adventuring and earning cash, but now they have to sit in a tavern being penalised so he can make cool stuff all for his own personal benefit...

this is only the 12th time i've typed this today

it takes a crafter 4 hours to craft a day's worth of material, and this should be an ongoing process. now if there's not travel or investigation time this would hamper a crafter, you're correct

Dark Archive

Sit down and ask the rest of the team whether they would rather you played your LN Wizard of Abadar in character, or whether you should change your character for their benefit?

Give them a say. If they're not prepared to compromise, you will have to. Maybe they'll be happy if they get to charge the money back somehow, allowing you to stay in character, and them to not "pay" for your services.


Re-read what you posted.

"If you're looking at the party's overall wealth by level, you have to count crafted items at their Cost. "

You have to look at the whole party not just the crafter. Everyone who gets crafted gear gets it for half price for WBL, if you choose to go by his ruling. (I wouldn't, if I was the DM. I'd consider the benefit the ability to cherry pick what you wanted and the ability to get it early- not that yuo get to suddenly double your WBL.)

By his ruling though you check everyone in the party not just the crafter. If he makes the fighter an item for half, it gets charged to the fighter's WBL as half not full cost.

_________________

True not every group treats down time the same. And how the crafter reacts will (or should) vary accordingly.
If the group get down time and everyone is off doing jello shots expecting the crafter to be up in the rafters crafting while they are having a good time- they deserve to be told no.

However, expecting him to do his part while others are also doing his part is perfectly reasonable. If no one else is charging to do their part why should he? Simple: He shouldn't.

What we're assuming is that everyone is doing their part. If they aren't then the equation changes. I still wouldn't abide someone charging me for their feats however. I'd just start charging for mine.
I do wonder how to charge per hex. Whats a good going rate? or what the fighter should charge for applying weapon focus for his weapon? Whatever it is, I'm sure it'll at least offset whatever the crafter is trying to charge.

"but but but they did X so I get to steal their money!" really isn't going to cut it. You can slice the pie however you want to, but taking more than your share is taking more than your fair share. if you want to go taking more than what you deserve expect them to do the same and to start cutting into your (now undeservedly larger) piece of the proverbial pie.

Nothing is necessarily wrong with a little greed in D&D. Wanting more gold is a good motivator for going out into the world and killing the goblins. One should be careful to temper that greed though as robbing from your party mates is considered bad form. And to alot of people, charging them to use your feats is robbing them. I know it is to me.

I still haven't heard a good solid reason why the non-crafters can't charge for their feats. Everyone's just ignoring it. C'mon folks surely someone has one good reason why the barbarian can't charge per power attack if the wizard gets to charge per item crafted.
If you can rob the barbarian with your feat, he can rob you with his.

-S

edited: changed some sentences to make sense.

Scarab Sages

Had no idea that you cannot sell your own creations for half book price. That aint fair. Plus, call me old school, but where does metagaming stop and role playing begin? I'll be darned if i would not want something for the effort. If they complain about it, maybe they should not have played a fighter.

Of course my point of view is nerfed by the rules. Gotta love it when the rules dictate roleplaying :/


master arminas wrote:

Of course it makes their characters more effective! They can craft exactly the items they want, instead of buying what a store has on-hand or relying on the loot of dead enemies. That is a major advantage to having the crafting feats.

I disagree with SRK (surprise, surprise), because any feat that allows the character to break Wealth by Level is a broken feat. The crafter shouldn't get 440,000 gp more than non-crafts at Level 20. He is, however, able to ensure that he can make what he wants, not what he finds.

And that should be more than enough reason to take the feat.

Master Arminas

Except in order for that to actually be an advantage you need to make sure everyone else is not getting exactly what they want and yet if they sell it and their WBL is lower than the crafter's the DM ups the drops of specific gear they want in order to up their WBL which negates the benefit of the feat. It's just a stupid system if you don't want to cause wealth imbalance because that is inherent to the feat. If you don't like it then ban the feat it's simple.


Well, Selgard, if someone robs my barbarian with their feat, he is liable to break every bone in their body and rob them right back in return! Rob him with my feet! Hah. I'll use my greatsword, thank you. Maybe a maul if I want him to suffer.

Master Arminas


Indivar wrote:

Had no idea that you cannot sell your own creations for half book price. That aint fair. Plus, call me old school, but where does metagaming stop and role playing begin? I'll be darned if i would not want something for the effort. If they complain about it, maybe they should not have played a fighter.

Of course my point of view is nerfed by the rules. Gotta love it when the rules dictate roleplaying :/

The rules attempt to keep players from exploiting magic item creation to become overly wealthy and maintain balance between PCs and balance for encounter purposes.

I suppose you could role play as Howard Hughes and amass a personal fortune if you like, but when you do it at the expense of your party members, don't expect them to be thrilled as they see you take out the gold pieces THEY gave you to buy that fancy gilded carriage for your ladyfriends.

Sovereign Court RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8

gnomersy wrote:
Adamantine Dragon wrote:
Matthew Morris wrote:

I agree,

When you won't admit that crafting other's items ends up reducing your WBL, there's no point in talking with people who's reply to everything is 'you're a jerk'.

My reply to "everything" isn't "you're a jerk." My reply to "I want my PC to craft items and make my party pay a surcharge for it" is "your PC's a jerk."

How is crafting for everyone in the party reducing your WBL if you are crafting for yourself too?

Because in order to maintain WBL for everyone to limit OP antics the DM reduces loot value to half that of before so that everyone is at WBL whereas if its only the Wizard who has too much money he may overlook it as being part of the point of buying the crafting feat.

You know... reading really is fundamental.

The FAQ has been linked thrice now showing that WBL takes into account the crafter being above 'WBL' because he's 'paying' for his better gear by the feat. The crafter So if the crafter skews his buddies WBL, and the GM reduces the treasure to bring the non-crafters back in line, he's also reduced the WBL of the crafter, negating the feat.

I can lead you to the faq, I can't make you read it.


Indivar wrote:

Had no idea that you cannot sell your own creations for half book price. That aint fair. Plus, call me old school, but where does metagaming stop and role playing begin? I'll be darned if i would not want something for the effort. If they complain about it, maybe they should not have played a fighter.

Of course my point of view is nerfed by the rules. Gotta love it when the rules dictate roleplaying :/

You do get something out of it. You have the fighter between you and the bad guys, wielding an even better (whatever it is).

The assumption seems to be that crafters make things, give to the party and get nothing in return. This is only true if the crafters don't then go adventuring with the party. Sure, if crafter dude is staying in town rolling a joint while the others are out risking their lives then the crafter might just charge for the goods. (and they do- read the rules. they get to charge *double* what they paid to make it!)

The assumption however is that Crafter Dude is in the thick of battle quite often with their group mates, combating evil, trying to solve puzzles, delving vile deep evil places of the earth (or outer planes or whatever). The argument that the crafter gets nothing is absurd. He has a Much better group for his effort! that increases his life expectancy exponentially. For the low low price of a feat he was going to take for himself anyway and some time he was probably going to spend getting some ale, he now has a group who can actually survive to go into the pit of dispair and find the magnificent widget of whatever and progress on their quest. What a deal!

If you chose your feats and abilities to make a profit then you really chose the wrong game. D&D is very very poorly suited to PC's are merchants making any money. This especially true for magical items since you can only get as much as you paid for the item.

If you continually ignore the fact that the barbarian holding the sword you made is actually a benefit to you, then you will continue to think that you deserve to get paid for making it. When you realize that you *are getting paid* for making it by him being there using it on your behalf, then you will come to the truth: That you are double dipping if you charge him 10% on top.
And if you decide to charge him 10% on top anyway you better hope he never decides to start charging you for swinging that weapon for you.
Fair is far, afterall.

-S


Matthew Morris wrote:

You know... reading really is fundamental.

The FAQ has been linked thrice now showing that WBL takes into account the crafter being above 'WBL' because he's 'paying' for his better gear by the feat. The crafter So if the crafter skews his buddies WBL, and the GM reduces the treasure to bring the non-crafters back in line, he's also reduced the WBL of the crafter, negating the feat.

I can lead you to the faq, I can't make you read it.

sorry if i'm not understanding your point.

so you're saying that when someone grabs a craft feat, the GM automatically reduces all treasure by 1/2 so the crafter still has the right wealth, while not crafting things for other people necessarily?

EDIT: if you look at the FAQ, they talk about character specific loot. so if the crafter has a disproportionate amount of wealth, the DM should take steps to correct that. I think that also would be the same for those who have lower wealth, that the GM would take steps to correct it


Matthew Morris wrote:
gnomersy wrote:
Adamantine Dragon wrote:
Matthew Morris wrote:

I agree,

When you won't admit that crafting other's items ends up reducing your WBL, there's no point in talking with people who's reply to everything is 'you're a jerk'.

My reply to "everything" isn't "you're a jerk." My reply to "I want my PC to craft items and make my party pay a surcharge for it" is "your PC's a jerk."

How is crafting for everyone in the party reducing your WBL if you are crafting for yourself too?

Because in order to maintain WBL for everyone to limit OP antics the DM reduces loot value to half that of before so that everyone is at WBL whereas if its only the Wizard who has too much money he may overlook it as being part of the point of buying the crafting feat.

You know... reading really is fundamental.

The FAQ has been linked thrice now showing that WBL takes into account the crafter being above 'WBL' because he's 'paying' for his better gear by the feat. The crafter So if the crafter skews his buddies WBL, and the GM reduces the treasure to bring the non-crafters back in line, he's also reduced the WBL of the crafter, negating the feat.

I can lead you to the faq, I can't make you read it.

The quote you are referring to is describing a crafter making items for themselves, not selling them at cost to the rest of the party. It is totally irrelevant to this discussion. In fact it is being used out of context to claim that crafters SHOULD be more wealthy BECAUSE they sell at higher prices to their party members. That's not remotely what the quote is saying.

Besides, as a GM I disagree with the entire thrust of SKR's comment anyway. He is outright saying that a crafter should have twice as good stuff as a non-crafter and that's the benefit of the feat. I call major astronomical b!+*~&$# on that.

Sovereign Court RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8

dragonfire8974 wrote:
Matthew Morris wrote:

You know... reading really is fundamental.

The FAQ has been linked thrice now showing that WBL takes into account the crafter being above 'WBL' because he's 'paying' for his better gear by the feat. The crafter So if the crafter skews his buddies WBL, and the GM reduces the treasure to bring the non-crafters back in line, he's also reduced the WBL of the crafter, negating the feat.

I can lead you to the faq, I can't make you read it.

sorry if i'm not understanding your point.

so you're saying that when someone grabs a craft feat, the GM automatically reduces all treasure by 1/2 so the crafter still has the right wealth?

Close, but wrong direction.

If WBL is 20K for x level, and the wizard has 30K of gear because he's crafted his stuff, that's fine, because the larger amount of gear is 'paid for' by the feat.

If Freddy Fighter, Clarice Cleric and Roger Rogue also have the higher WBL because Wally wizard is crafting, then the party's WBL is skewed. The GM has to reduce treasure to compensate (or make the encounters tougher, and keep treasure level appropriate, same difference). By bringing the rest of the party 'up' to his level, he's skewed things against him.

Now with the 'crafting surtax' even when the GM reduces treasure to keep WBL in check, the feat is still 'paying' for the wizard. In my party of 4 above, the Wizard is 4k GP (or 6k items if he dumps it all into crafting) So reducing the party gold doesn't erase the benefit the feat gives.


"Ah, the Gordon Gekko defense! Nicely done. Hey, I know what! Greed is so good, and you've demonstrated it so well by overcharging me for that sword, that now you can pay me for every blow I take while you hide behind me. Greed is good after all. And those heals and buffs you've been getting? Here's your menu. Pick a little something from column A, and maybe a few from Column B!

You ain't never had a friend like me."

How is 40 percent off overcharging again? I've never heard a reason why a huge discount and not having to roll for it is ripping somebody off.

Also, in combat actions are paid for by your share of party loot. If you abandon your party role by not doing your job, should you get full share? I wouldn't think so. That wizard who "stiffed" you on that sword you always wanted but couldn't afford or find is still casting his buffs/debuffs/blasts. That cleric who charged for potions because he couldn't be everywhere all the time and can't always heal enough due to action economy is still doing his thing in combat. He is casting his spells, taking hits, dealing damage for his share of the party loot. If he didn't, he would forfeit part of the loot.

I will admit that the martial classes with no spell ability are a bit boned on the whole not being able to craft anything of value issue, that is why you give them a discount. Or let them take a larger share of loot (let them have that magic armor the group found, deduct only half value from their share for taking it rather than full).

Sovereign Court RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8

Adamantine Dragon wrote:
Besides, as a GM I disagree with the entire thrust of SKR's comment anyway. He is outright saying that a crafter should have twice as good stuff as a non-crafter and that's the benefit of the feat. I call major astronomical b%!$+%%+ on that.

Shorter Adamantium Dragon: I can't refute what was written, so I'll ignore it.

Got it.


Matthew Morris wrote:
Adamantine Dragon wrote:
Besides, as a GM I disagree with the entire thrust of SKR's comment anyway. He is outright saying that a crafter should have twice as good stuff as a non-crafter and that's the benefit of the feat. I call major astronomical b%!$+%%+ on that.

Shorter Adamantium Dragon: I can't refute what was written, so I'll ignore it.

Got it.

Shorter Matthew: "I can't refute the totality of what AD has written so I'll selectively quote out of context and snark about how clever I am."

got it.

I'm done with this.

Those of you who want to play as junior Howard Hughes' knock yourself out. I know what will happen when one of you ends up in my party. And it will be fun.

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