Btw. where is stated that the character has free time anyway and that not 24 hours are to be devoted to the good of the group?Um. What? Non-Sequitur here. Nobody is required to give 24 hours to anybody in this game.Where are work day hours defined?
I know that you travel for 8 hours a day.
I know that you craft for 8 hours a day etc. pp.But where does it tell you that adventurers have FREE TIME?
Where does it tell you they don't?? Especially in kingmaker.
I had 2 months to craft away in kingmaker.. You know what happend? The whole time was spent on party crafting.. Others did work that produced them just as much money as I made from crafting for them. So I don't see what the big deal is here.
So the party rogue takes skill focus (stealth) and buys some good boots/cloak for it and dumps a /ton/ of skill points into that and sleight of hand.
The next time some big bad dies he makes some die rolls, passes a note to the DM, and scores something off the top. Into his pocket, no one notices.
Is he a thief? Is it "alright" because he dumped skills and feats into it?
Nope. A thief is a thief. Using your class abilities to steal from the players is.. well.. stealing from the other players.
The more I think about it, the more I'd just IC ditch the character and leave him at his temple to Abadar, wish him luck and move on without him. Which is exactly what would happen to the Thief, assuming the DM had a "no pvp" rule.. (in which case they would die, for becoming an enemy to the party. for the thief anyway, not necesarily applicable to the cleric here)
However you frame it, however you work around it, your character is using his feats/skills/whatever to steal money from the group. Its really just that simple. You can claim its for your god, you can claim you are getting something back for your feat taken, you can pretty much claim whatever you want.
But you are still stealing money from the group you are supposed to be friends and comrades with- IC.
And IC, you shouldn't expect to hang out with them very long.
At least, in every group I've ever been with in my entire life. *they* would all consider it theft. And I would too.
Your mileage may vary- but by the OP's original post, it seems they too take a very dim view of the activity.
-S
I have been in groups that take advantage of the spell casters like you describe. Casters are EXPECTED to take a bunch of item creation feats. Casters are EXPECTED to spend all their free time making magic for everyone else for free. When there was no other option, I played in some of those groups for awhile. I probably wouldn't play a spellcaster in such a group. I certainly wouldn't take any item creation feats in such a group.
Kydeem, you are totally misrepresenting my arguments. I hope that is not deliberate. I have not described anything of this sort.
In my games nobody is EXPECTED to take any feats. That's totally their choice. If someone WANTS to take a craft item feat, it is ASSUMED that they are doing so for the same reason the rest of us are taking feats. So that we are more powerful and a better party.
Learning that a player character took a feat for the SPECIFIC PURPOSE of making money off of me would absolutely create problems in game.
If you don't want to craft magic items, fine, don't take the feats. If you take the feats, then try to charge me MORE than you could sell the same item to a merchant, expect me to be pissed. Because I WILL BE.
Crafter: "Look, here's a great sword I made for you."
Me: "Cool, thanks!"
Crafter: "Ahem... there's a 10% surcharge."
Me: "Go to hell. Sell it to a merchant."
Does the fighter charge you to intercept that ogre that's coming at you? Does the cleric charge you for cures? Does the rogue steal from you? Are you in fact, merely being greedy?
Pardon me, but did the OP say he was going to start charging for his adventuring services as well? He isn't charging for casting fireball, or contributing to the adventure as the other players do. He is asking for compensation for an unrelated volunteered service that is NOT required of him. Unless the wizard was brought into t he group to craft things - in which case he shouldn't be responsible for the fireballs and so on - then they have no expectation of him doing so for them for free.
I'm friends with a guy who makes guitars. Just because I give him a ride and don't ask him for gas money, doesn't mean he should give me free guitars.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Man - I guess I should feel like a tool or something, 'cause back in Second Darkness our crafting Wizard was charging 75%, or cost+25% (however you want to say it). Personally, all I saw was a 25% savings on custom-order magic items. Money I saved went into other things. It was nice.
Like I said though, what was I thinking? O.o
OP - never mind the naysayers, you're offering hella-value at cost+10%. If they don't like it and choose to be stingy with their class-features, which cost them nothing and are replenished daily, then I suggest investing in spells like Mage Armor, Flight, Stone Skin, etc. Once you get to high enough level, you don't really need the rest of 'em anyway. lol
Why are they wasting resources? Everyone spends only one feat and they get virtually all magic items there are for 50% of the listed price.
How is that WASTING RESOURCES?We should talk about your values sometimes, because I would call that a big push to the group power.
They are wasting resources by getting feats another party member already has just to get back at what they percieve is an unfair practice. I don't know how your games work, but if I was offered to buy a feat for a measly 50gp I would jump all over it. And that is exactly what is going on here.. The other party members are using the crafters feats and skills at no cost or time expense to themselves.
-Your values would seem to support "Whats mine is mine, and what's yours is mine". That's just not how the world works.
I'm friends with a guy who makes guitars. Just because I give him a ride and don't ask him for gas money, doesn't mean he should give me free guitars.
I keep seeing this as an argument for charging for "services."
So, Davick, is this friend of yours one that you travel with and fight monsters to the death and depend on each other night and day for each other's survival?
When he makes a guitar, do you use that guitar to save his ass from attacking creatures?
Do the two of you split all of your income from your shared activities?
No.
Mist, are these the questions you keep referring to?
I was mostly interested in your first response and the three below:
If a crafter only uses their crafting feat for themselves and the rest of their downtime is used on research for spells, prayers, etc.. or simply relaxing, is that acceptable to you, as the PC is not "profiteering" on their fellow PC?
Do you insist that all feats chosen have to be approved by the group and have to benefit the group in some way, shape or form? To me, it seems that you are saying that, as you said that the crafter can either use the craft feat for the group's benefit or to be better in combat.
Out of curiosity, what do your characters do when the crafter is making items for the group?
Additional/expansion on the third question - Do your groups handwave downtime?
As to the teleport question, I was actually referring to the general "charge the jerk for everything else" and the possible outcome if the crafter started charging for out of combat spells as well. In my mind, it was the crafter asking about being paid for teleport spells if the other PCs were charging for out of combat spells.
So the party rogue takes skill focus (stealth) and buys some good boots/cloak for it and dumps a /ton/ of skill points into that and sleight of hand.
The next time some big bad dies he makes some die rolls, passes a note to the DM, and scores something off the top. Into his pocket, no one notices.
Is he a thief? Is it "alright" because he dumped skills and feats into it?
Nope. A thief is a thief. Using your class abilities to steal from the players is.. well.. stealing from the other players.
The more I think about it, the more I'd just IC ditch the character and leave him at his temple to Abadar, wish him luck and move on without him. Which is exactly what would happen to the Thief, assuming the DM had a "no pvp" rule.. (in which case they would die, for becoming an enemy to the party. for the thief anyway, not necesarily applicable to the cleric here)
However you frame it, however you work around it, your character is using his feats/skills/whatever to steal money from the group. Its really just that simple. You can claim its for your god, you can claim you are getting something back for your feat taken, you can pretty much claim whatever you want.
But you are still stealing money from the group you are supposed to be friends and comrades with- IC.
And IC, you shouldn't expect to hang out with them very long.
At least, in every group I've ever been with in my entire life. *they* would all consider it theft. And I would too.Your mileage may vary- but by the OP's original post, it seems they too take a very dim view of the activity.
-S
Which is a good point here.
So you are all friends in that group and everyone makes a character which ends up being a part of the group.
Now you are making someone ripping the group off.
The party has 5 People. 4 out of that 5 people don't like such behavior.
So a quick question: How did that one character end up in the party while 4/5th of the group dislikes such persons. Who accepted him in the party? Why do they still work with him?
A group is more or less (unless its campaign specific of course) a democratically governed business organisation. You retrieve treasure and solve quests.
So everyone in the group is getting employed by the group.
Now would you employ someone you just can't stand in your group or rather take another guy who is in your line?
The answer here is easy: noone would take the jerk.
Resume: You are FORCING your character upon the group which would never end up in such a group under any circumstances and justify your behavior with ROLEPLAYING while you are more a ROLLPLAYER than anything else. There is no reason why the group would be sticking around with the kinds of your character.
The sole reason why your character is in there is because everyone is metagaming and knows that this character is played by you and you are a member of that RPG group.
Btw. where is stated that the character has free time anyway and that not 24 hours are to be devoted to the good of the group?Um. What? Non-Sequitur here. Nobody is required to give 24 hours to anybody in this game.Where are work day hours defined?
I know that you travel for 8 hours a day.
I know that you craft for 8 hours a day etc. pp.But where does it tell you that adventurers have FREE TIME?
Where does it tell you they don't?? Especially in kingmaker.
I had 2 months to craft away in kingmaker.. You know what happend? The whole time was spent on party crafting.. Others did work that produced them just as much money as I made from crafting for them. So I don't see what the big deal is here.
Cool HOUSE RULES you got there!
And because, you too, don't read the thread the consens here is:
As long as everyone gets his chance to earn out of combat money all is fine.But still everyone is doing a lot of work then for nothing. Because everyone ends up with the same amount of money he would otherwise have. Everything that happens is that money gets shifted around in a great circle.
Perhaps you should read the OP.. This is a Kingmaker campaign and the downtime is written in the module. House rules this is not.
Under normal campaign settings I wouldn't even consider crafting as you can be done and finished with a campaign in less than a months gametime, making crafting virtually useless.
So the party rogue takes skill focus (stealth) and buys some good boots/cloak for it and dumps a /ton/ of skill points into that and sleight of hand.
The next time some big bad dies he makes some die rolls, passes a note to the DM, and scores something off the top. Into his pocket, no one notices.
Is he a thief? Is it "alright" because he dumped skills and feats into it?
Nope. A thief is a thief. Using your class abilities to steal from the players is.. well.. stealing from the other players.
The more I think about it, the more I'd just IC ditch the character and leave him at his temple to Abadar, wish him luck and move on without him. Which is exactly what would happen to the Thief, assuming the DM had a "no pvp" rule.. (in which case they would die, for becoming an enemy to the party. for the thief anyway, not necesarily applicable to the cleric here)
However you frame it, however you work around it, your character is using his feats/skills/whatever to steal money from the group. Its really just that simple. You can claim its for your god, you can claim you are getting something back for your feat taken, you can pretty much claim whatever you want.
But you are still stealing money from the group you are supposed to be friends and comrades with- IC.
And IC, you shouldn't expect to hang out with them very long.
At least, in every group I've ever been with in my entire life. *they* would all consider it theft. And I would too.Your mileage may vary- but by the OP's original post, it seems they too take a very dim view of the activity.
-S
So when the other party members ask the wizard to make items without compensation they are enriching themselves while the wizard gets nothing. Similar to the thief who enriches himself while the party gets nothing. Nothing different between the two, but one is theft since it benefits the individual, and the other is not because the group benefits while the individual gets nothing? In fact in this case the individual ends up with less than nothing, as they lost the opportunity to make income elsewhere.
Why not have both parties benefit? Pay the wizard for his time. Party comes out ahead, wizard comes out ahead. Everybody benefits.
This is pretty unlikely to actually be the case. The PC asking to commission the magic item would have to start with just cash. But he's more likely had to sell some gear the PCs have looted in the course of adventuring to get that cash, meaning he's already reduced the wealth the PCs have acquired down from the DM's original calculations.
The main value of the magic item creation feats is to preserve wealth by converting the value of items you have looted but don't want into items of similar value that you do want. As such, it's a nice feature, but hardly one to break WBL guidelines by doubling wealth. It simply doesn't work out that way under normal circumstances.
Bill, I'm not sure I agree.
If the party finds/loots 4K of magic items/goods and sells it for 2K, then they can buy that +1 sword for 2K.* If there's a crafter, the party can 'buy' that item for 1K, skewing their wealth by 1000 right off the bat. Now this seems to be taken into account for the crafter, not the rest of the party.
In a sense, they have skewed their wealth. They halved it by selling the magic/used items. That's the part where they skewed their wealth. Using crafting feats lets them un-skew it a bit.
Let's look at 2 hypothetical parties of PCs going through the same adventure designed to comply with WBL guidelines but using only sellable items (all for 1/2 market value) as treasure. Party A is the ALWAYS ADAPT party. They take whatever items they find and use them, adapting character design plans as necessary, and don't sell things. Party S is the SELL STUFF party. They always sell their items they find because they want to buy ones more specific to their builds. At the end of the day, without item creation feats, Party A has twice the wealth that Party S has.
Now suppose Party C is the CONSTANTLY CRAFTING party. They sell the items they get and use crafting feats to make the custom items they want. They end up with the same wealth as Party A because while selling halves the value, crafting doubles that result.
Granted, this applies most starkly when the loot found is stuff that must be sold off at 1/2 value. If all of the loot found is in cash, then Party S and Party A remain equal and it's Party C who ends up way ahead. The typical loot drop is a mix of cash and more expensive items that can be sold. But the more the value of the loot is in magic items or other things that must be sold off at half price, the closer we come to the initial scenario in which Party C's crafting items serves to restore wealth value compared to Party A rather than getting ahead.
I'm friends with a guy who makes guitars. Just because I give him a ride and don't ask him for gas money, doesn't mean he should give me free guitars.
I keep seeing this as an argument for charging for "services."
So, Davick, is this friend of yours one that you travel with and fight monsters to the death and depend on each other night and day for each other's survival?
When he makes a guitar, do you use that guitar to save his ass from attacking creatures?
Do the two of you split all of your income from your shared activities?
No.
Doesn't matter. What if my friend and I were in the military and instead of guitars it was guns? Doesn't matter. It's not something expected of him.
Why are they wasting resources? Everyone spends only one feat and they get virtually all magic items there are for 50% of the listed price.
How is that WASTING RESOURCES?We should talk about your values sometimes, because I would call that a big push to the group power.
They are wasting resources by getting feats another party member already has just to get back at what they percieve is an unfair practice. I don't know how your games work, but if I was offered to buy a feat for a measly 50gp I would jump all over it. And that is exactly what is going on here.. The other party members are using the crafters feats and skills at no cost or time expense to themselves.
-
Your values would seem to support "Whats mine is mine, and what's yours is mine". That's just not how the world works.
Its not 50gp.
The gain #1 is that they don't shove their hard earned money down the throat of that cleric (which they obviously dislike) .
#2 is that they don't run into risk that that obviously jerky greedy character will up his prices or as you always promote stop working for the others because he has cooler shinier things to craft (with the money he ripped off them in the first place). Which will cut them off custom crafted magic items all too easily. Thats quite a high risk, wouldn't it?
#3 is that if you have limited time at your hands the production capacity is greatly improved.
#4 they now have more than just wondrous items. Rings. Rods. Armor. Weapons.
So by me saying that everyone takes one feat and shares for the good of everyone your conclusion is that I am a selfish person ripping others off?
Seriously. Stop trying to be philosophic or anything. It honestly makes my head hurt at the moment. Its just too much...
Here is the differnce.
Those who think charging shoud be free feel that the Crafter is charignt them 10%
Those who feel that they are entitled to charge feel they are going out of their way to give a friend a 40% discount.
Now lets say I owned a LGS. I would get items for about half the listed price. If I gave my friends a 40% discount would I be ripping them off for not giving it to them at cost?
If I am a 10th level caster and cast 1st level cure light wounds would I be ripping them off for charging 60 gold?
|
Listen, there are two completely separate issues at play here: in-game stuff, and out-of-game stuff.
In-game, there is absolutely no problem with a crafting character trying to make a profit, so long as it fits with their character. But it all depends on the character concept. A nice old cleric of Erastil probably isn't going to charge their friends for crafting, as he might figure that it's part of his duty to the group. A cleric of Abadar wouldn't have any problem charging a commission fee, or even drawing up an elaborate contract for the financial affairs of the party.
Out-of-game is where the problems can arise. It's really important for everyone to be on the same page, so no one is feeling like they're being cheated. If you're planning on charging for crafting, you really ought to make that completely clear LONG before it arises in game play. Explain exactly why, and make sure no one is going to be surprised when it happens.
We just had this issue come up in my own gaming group, and my players handled it really well:
One player rolled up a new character mid-campaign. He's a Bard with the Leadership feat, and he runs a traveling workshop of item crafters. He's really loyal to his friends, but he just met the other party mmbers and doesn't yet have that kind of bond with them. So he made it clear that his character would be charging for any crafting requests from the party. He made sure to tell everyone this out-of-character, right when he originally came up with the concept. If anyone had been angry, he would have been happy to change it.
It makes perfect sense with his character concept, and it's clear that he's not trying to take advantage of the other players in any way. It's good roleplay through and through.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Which is a good point here.
So you are all friends in that group and everyone makes a character which ends up being a part of the group.
Now you are making someone ripping the group off.The party has 5 People. 4 out of that 5 people don't like such behavior.
So a quick question: How did that one character end up in the party while 4/5th of the group dislikes such persons. Who accepted him in the party?...
OK, so hypothetical. Lets say his charecter was a non-crafter introduced into the group.. Now everyone pays full price for items. Now he dies and a new crafting party member enters the group. You now pay half price + 10%.
Who in thier right mind is going to say "HEY! You are ripping us off by making us pay 40% less than we used to."
That party has some mixed up priorities. If I'm said crafter and I didn't get compensated for my items, I would not be sharing my skills and feats, as you obviously don't appreciate just how much I'm doing for you.
Okay, I am on the fence about the whole issue when crafting during downtime. It largely depends on how downtime is handled in the campaign to decide if it is appropriate.
But, if you want me to craft something for you in the field for you, then I will definitely be charging you a fee. Seriously, any argument that it costs you nothing to craft in the field is ludicrous. You want me to craft you something that costs a modest amount? Say 30,000gp? That will take me FOUR MONTHS in the field. And the thing about crafting is that you can only work on one project at a given time. That means for four months I can't replenish my scroll library. For four months I can't make any useful potions. For four months I can't stop and make that cheap wondrous item that would be perfect for the upcoming situation. I like to make sure I have my emergency teleport scroll. I like to make sure I have the oil of daylight. I like being able to create some feather tokens in a day or two to smuggle in all sorts of things. I can't do any of that while working on your order.
Yes, not all wizards are going to have every item creation feat- but they will have to give up scribe scroll. Now, I don't use or make scrolls every day. Heck, I probably use scribe scroll less than a lot of people. But over the course of four months of adventuring I do go through some scrolls, and I really like to replace them. If I am giving up that option, or am paying full price for cheaper items, don't you think I should be concenpated in some way? And 5% really doesn't seem to be asking much for what I am giving up.
Or you can just purchase all my scrolls for me while I spend my time making your item. Then we'll call it even.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
The guy who runs a shop, runs a shop. He's a shop keeper. Keeping shop is his lively hood. That is how he makes money.
The PC who takes a crafting feat isn't a merchant. He's an adventuruer. He's in the business of adventuring. This business requires others to do it with them.
If 4 guys go into business together (doing anything) and one of them starts charging the other members for doing what they are in business together to do, then he gets booted. He's a thief.
The same is true for the 4 adventurers. Now its true the 3 guys can say "hey, its fine" and then all is well. But if they *don't* say its fine then its clear where the problem lies. And its not with them.
You have a group of adventurers who are in the business of adventuring. The expectation is that you will take skills, feats, and conduct yourself in the manner of making yourself better for adventuring. That may mean making a nastier fireball or it may mean making yourself sneakier.
The guy with the item creation feats is choosing to make himself and presumably the group more powerful by getting to choose what christmas tree effects they wear.
Him *charging* for that, is *just like* the fighter charging the group to use his weapon specialization to take down the bad guys faster. Or the other guy for the mage armor he cast on the rogue, or the rogue charting for every door they unlock.
"but he could have taken a different feat". Yep. And it'd be wrong to charge the group when he used whatever feat it was, too. "hey guys I'm going to take Maximize, but i'm gonna charge you guys when I use it.".
Wha? No!
"hey guys I chose an item creation feat but I'm charging you guys 10% to use it".
You've suddenly gone from team player to looking out for yourself first. Don't expect to be allowed to carry the McGuffin when the group finds it, don't expect to be allowed to sit at watch alone, don't expect.. well, for the group to trust you. cuz you just becamee the guy who thinks of himself first and the group not at all. They won't trust you and IC they'd drop you off at the temple steps next chance they got.
You are a part of an adventuring group. The point is for you all to level up, get more powerful, take down bigger bad guys, rinse repeat move on.. save the world and all that.
If you want to play "i'm using my feats to get richer at the group's expense" then don't be surprised if they resent it.
Sure, the group has the right to not care. to pay the surcharge and even be happy for getting what little discount they can from the thieving crafter.
They also have the right to demand payment in kind for their feats. or to ditch the character altogether and find someone else who knows the meaning of "team work".
All's fair if the group allows it, but when the group doesn't allow it- it doesn't end well for the stingy player.
The OP's group pretty much has let it be known which side of the proverbial fence they are on. Its now up to him to get along with them, or face their wrath.
-S
|
First on the subject of profteering. A mage is NOT going to charge 50 percent to Joe the Merchant, and 60% to his companion Bob the fighter.
Actually, the crafter in our game hit upon magic items as a great way to create portable loot. He'd make the sort of utility items no one normally bothers with, such as a helm of comprehend languages, use them on adventures, then sell them when he needed the cash for something else.
I don't know what would have happened if at that point another PC had wanted the item. I hope he'd have waived his normal crafting fee since it wasn't made to order, but he might not have.
I removed a bunch of posts, as well as the posts replying to or referring to those posts. If I missed any, please flag them.
Don't make things personal, and have respect for the people you are debating with. If you think someone isn't worthy of your attention, then don't give it to them. If someone else is being offensive, flag it and move on. Don't respond in kind.
The guy who runs a shop, runs a shop. He's a shop keeper. Keeping shop is his lively hood. That is how he makes money.
The PC who takes a crafting feat isn't a merchant. He's an adventuruer. He's in the business of adventuring. This business requires others to do it with them.
And he totally backs up his guys on the field of battle too. He blasts the baddies with spells and Dimension Door's the group around and, oh yeah, he makes the crew custom-ordered magic items at cost+10%!
Lemme tell ya, that guy rocks. :)
Btw. where is stated that the character has free time anyway and that not 24 hours are to be devoted to the good of the group?Um. What? Non-Sequitur here. Nobody is required to give 24 hours to anybody in this game.Where are work day hours defined?
I know that you travel for 8 hours a day.
I know that you craft for 8 hours a day etc. pp.But where does it tell you that adventurers have FREE TIME?
You're completely right. Time isn't free. Hence the charge for creating magic items for the party.
In all seriousness, what I would probably do is craft for free under the following conditions:
1) My character has time that he isn't making use of.
2) My character isn't already in the middle of another crafting project. Remember that you have to scrap a project to start another one.
3) I'm willing to commit my character's crafting skill to the other player's project for the amount of time it will take.
If any of those conditions isn't met, you'll have to pay me something in order to get me to drop what I'm doing and work on your stuff. If you don't like it, you can have instant gratification and buy it in a shop for a great deal more money.
The guy who runs a shop, runs a shop. He's a shop keeper. Keeping shop is his lively hood. That is how he makes money.
The PC who takes a crafting feat isn't a merchant. He's an adventuruer. He's in the business of adventuring. This business requires others to do it with them.
If 4 guys go into business together (doing anything) and one of them starts charging the other members for doing what they are in business together to do, then he gets booted. He's a thief.
To use your example of 4 in business, I don't think it right that 3 of the partners tell the 4th partner that they have to spend all of their downtime working unpaid overtime, while they get to relax. To me, that makes the other 3 thieves.
Do you want to take a shot at answering my questions, as I seem to be having trouble getting most of the crafting for free crowd to answer them?
Adamantine Dragon was kind enough to answer a few, but I am waiting on him/her to answer a few more.
Its not 50gp.
The gain #1 is that they don't shove their hard earned money down the throat of that cleric (which they obviously dislike) .
#2 is that they don't run into risk that that obviously jerky greedy character will up his prices or as you always promote stop working for the others because he has cooler shinier things to craft (with the money he ripped off them in the first place). Which will cut them off custom crafted magic items all too easily. Thats quite a high risk, wouldn't it?
#3 is that if you have limited time at your hands the production capacity is greatly improved.
#4 they now have more than just wondrous items. Rings. Rods. Armor. Weapons.So by me saying that everyone takes one feat and shares for the good of everyone your conclusion is that I am a selfish person ripping others off?
Seriously. Stop trying to be philosophic or anything. It honestly makes my head hurt at the moment. Its just too much...
In my case it is 50g.. in the OP case it is 100g. But I charge less..
-In the cases you mentioned #1 and #2, its designed to get back at a party member for charging for items.. A petty reason to waste resources on a feat that you can borrow for 50-100gp.
In case #3, provided that another caster doesnt already have the feat, I encourage multiple people with item creation feats.. it can speed up production.
In case #4. Only casters can get these feats as they have a minimum caster level to obtain. So not everyone can craft, but they should indeed select the feat if the other crafter does not have it.
My conclusion was not that you were selfish for taking other feats.. Just petty for suggesting taking feats to spite the crafter providing you with access to a feat for a minimal charge. Even slaves cost money in this game.
Selgard and AdmantiumDragon
Would you object if the wizard used his downtime to make stuff for himself and then just partied the rest of the time, or spent it making connections with sages and others in the magical community. Since it is a Kingmaker campaign, perhaps running the countries Acadamy of Magic.
He did not make stuff for the party or profit off them, but then did not make stuff for them either?
You know what? No.
I'd be disappointed but he's not trying to actively exploit the party so I've no reason to begrudge him.
I'm not asking the dude to be a crafting slave. I'm asking him not to be a crafting nazi.
So when the other party members ask the wizard to make items without compensation they are enriching themselves while the wizard gets nothing. Similar to the thief who enriches himself while the party gets nothing. Nothing different between the two, but one is theft since it benefits the individual, and the other is not because the group benefits while the individual gets nothing? In fact in this case the...So the party rogue takes skill focus (stealth) and buys some good boots/cloak for it and dumps a /ton/ of skill points into that and sleight of hand.
The next time some big bad dies he makes some die rolls, passes a note to the DM, and scores something off the top. Into his pocket, no one notices.
Is he a thief? Is it "alright" because he dumped skills and feats into it?
Nope. A thief is a thief. Using your class abilities to steal from the players is.. well.. stealing from the other players.
The more I think about it, the more I'd just IC ditch the character and leave him at his temple to Abadar, wish him luck and move on without him. Which is exactly what would happen to the Thief, assuming the DM had a "no pvp" rule.. (in which case they would die, for becoming an enemy to the party. for the thief anyway, not necesarily applicable to the cleric here)
However you frame it, however you work around it, your character is using his feats/skills/whatever to steal money from the group. Its really just that simple. You can claim its for your god, you can claim you are getting something back for your feat taken, you can pretty much claim whatever you want.
But you are still stealing money from the group you are supposed to be friends and comrades with- IC.
And IC, you shouldn't expect to hang out with them very long.
At least, in every group I've ever been with in my entire life. *they* would all consider it theft. And I would too.Your mileage may vary- but by the OP's original post, it seems they too take a very dim view of the activity.
-S
The underlying problem is that *everyone benefits from the crafter crafting*.
I'll say it again. *everyone benefits from the crafter crafting*.
We're playing A Cooperative game.
When player A gets better, the group improves.
If you are part of the group, you should be trying to help player A get better.
If the crafter is charging for it, he is getting a double benefit. The group is getting better, and he's also stealing from his party member.
That is why its wrong. The party isn't competing internally. They are competing *as a group* against external conflicts. The party should never be charging *each other* to make the group better.
The fighter charging to use his sword is just as wrong as the wizard charging to use his feat. They are in business together- the business of putting baddies into the ground. They aren't charging each other for it- they are already benefiting from their mutual arrangement. (i.e. killing bads, looting them, and moving on).
The wizard taking off the top is idential to the rogue stealing an item from the hoard before the rest of the group gets there. They are using their feats to take money from the group. Couching it as "well you are getting a discount off the normal stuff!" is just being dishonest. You selected an option for your character that can make the group better and you are then trying to profit internally, from the group, by making them pay you to use it. Just no.
You don't get to take your character options and then start charging other party members for them. Nomore than the fighter should charge you when he uses his feats, or the barbarian his, or the sorceror his spells or feats. No more than its ok for the rogue to swipe a gold sceptre from the hoard and pocket the cash.
Letting the crafter charge a surcharge *is the same identical thing* as letting the rogue swipe stuff. The rogue in the group should be able to steal from hoards and pick pocket the PC's. Its his feats, right? he's able to use his feats to gain money isn't he? he could have chosen some other feat but chose this one and deserves to get rich from it.
At the group's expense- of course!
Of course *not*. Stealing from the group is stealing from the group.
Its only OK if they say it is- and when they don't, the thief has to quit stealing from the group or get killed or left behind or at best- not raised when they happen to die. cuz who wants to pay to res the selfish guy anyway? Not My fighter, thats for dang sure. They'll roll the corpse, pocket the cash, bury the guy and put up a "looking for cleric" sign at the next adventurers hall they meet.
Selecting any given feat, skill, or class doesn't give any character the right to start taking money and items from the rest of the group. Phrase it how you want, work it how you want, it doesn't make it right. Don't expect to find groups who allow it. Be surprised if you find a group that does allow it. Resist the urge to do it, even if the group doesn't mind.
-S
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
|
In a sense, they have skewed their wealth. They halved it by selling the magic/used items. That's the part where they skewed their wealth. Using crafting feats lets them un-skew it a bit.
Let's look at 2 hypothetical parties of PCs going through the same adventure designed to comply with WBL guidelines but using only sellable items (all for 1/2 market value) as treasure. Party A is the ALWAYS ADAPT party. They take whatever items they find and use them, adapting character design plans as necessary, and don't sell things. Party S is the SELL STUFF party. They always sell their items they find because they want to buy ones more specific to their builds. At the end of the day, without item creation feats, Party A has twice the wealth that Party S has.
Now suppose Party C is the CONSTANTLY CRAFTING party. They sell the items they get and use crafting feats to make the custom items they want. They end up with the same wealth as Party A...
Bill, the problem is that party A does not exist 90% of the time. PArty A isn't going to tote around that +2 unholy axe from the anti-paladin they killed. if everyone has +2 armor, they're not going to use the +1 suit they found. More importantly, the game assumes that the treasure runs about 50%.
I inferred from the FAQ that the WBL affects just the crafting character's calculations. To continue the example I read, if Wally Wizard stocks up on craft feats at Sears (Or Arnie Artificer for 3pp) his 'feat' is paid for by WBL. So if the party should average (for example) 20K gold, and Wally Wizard's items based on cost = 30K because he's crafted 20K worth of items for 10 K, that's fine. No need to reduce treasure for Wally Wizard, all is well.
Now if Freddy Fighter has 30K of gear because Wally Wizard is crafting him stuff, then Freddy's WBL is skewed and he 'needs' less treasure to allow the WBL estimate to catch up with him. Same promblem for Roger Rogue and Clarice Cleric. if we're reducing treasure to get Freddy, Roger and Clarice down to 'acceptable' WBL, either Wally needs to get more money under the table or he's being punished for taking the feat.
|
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
|
I removed a bunch of posts, as well as the posts replying to or referring to those posts. If I missed any, please flag them.
Don't make things personal, and have respect for the people you are debating with. If you think someone isn't worthy of your attention, then don't give it to them. If someone else is being offensive, flag it and move on. Don't respond in kind.
Ross, can you remove this post or can I flag myself. In hindsight it's a lot more snarky than I wanted.
Sorry Adamantine Dragon.
Mist, are these the questions you keep referring to?I was mostly interested in your first response and the three below:
1) If a crafter only uses their crafting feat for themselves and the rest of their downtime is used on research for spells, prayers, etc.. or simply relaxing, is that acceptable to you, as the PC is not "profiteering" on their fellow PC?
2) Do you insist that all feats chosen have to be approved by the group and have to benefit the group in some way, shape or form? To me, it seems that you are saying that, as you said that the crafter can either use the craft feat for the group's benefit or to be better in combat.
3) Out of curiosity, what do your characters do when the crafter is making items for the group?
4) Additional/expansion on the third question - Do your groups handwave downtime?
As to the teleport question, I was actually referring to the general "charge the jerk for everything else" and the possible outcome if the crafter started charging for out of combat spells as well. In my mind, it was the crafter asking about being paid for teleport spells if the other PCs were charging for out of combat spells.
Mist, I think these are the questions you were speaking of? if not please direct me to 'em. I added in numbers to make it easier.
1) Absolutely. If they only have enough down time to tend to their own needs, then so be it. taking the feat doesn't endenture a character to the group to just sit there every waking moment and craft things. However, I've never run across a crafter unwilling to craft when they Did have time. Why? Because making items for the fighter makes the group better.
2) Nope. Everyone chooses feats that benefit the group. The fighter taking weapon focus makes him a better fighter which benefits the group.
Unless someone was doing something truly silly and off the wall no one would even comment (except maybe jokingly) but even then- its your character build 'em how you want.
3) It depends. If they are "building on the run" then the group is always there by their side. if its a few months down time for whatever reason then it really depends on what the group wants to do. I've seen some folks hang with the crafter to make sure he doesn't get ganked during the "down time".. I've seen everyone split off to take the time to do what they want. I've seen some craft while others go gather intel while others go start researching some important group topic in the library. It just depends on whats going on. (in my current AP we haven't had any hard "down time" to speak of, its all been crafting on the fly or sneaking in an extra day here or there as we're able).
4) I've never had a DM just say you don't need the time. In previous campaigns I've had the DM just tell us we get 3 (4 6 whatever) months off, and then asked us to say what we were gonna do with it before the next session.
In the business example:
Your assumption is that the crafter is the only one contributing to the "group". And he's not. if 4 guys are in business with each other the assumption is that they are all doing things to promote the business.
One guy may be out in the city promoting the business. Another guy is busy purchasing raw goods. Another guy is manning the store. Another guy is in the back crafting the items. They are all 4 doing very valuable things- one guy shouldn't be saying "i'm the one making things so I get to charge you guys an extra 10 off the top".
In an adventuring group: everyone is still contributing. The fighter chose his feats to make combat better for all. The rogue chose his feats to make combat better (or to be a scout, or a skill monkey, or whatever he focused on). Each character is choosing their thigns to make themselves- and the rest of the group- better. What are they doing while you are crafting? while on the road- they are watching your butt. They may be taking your watch. They are helping you kill things to get more money to get more of whatever it is you like to get. They re also your friends. Your comrades. Them getting better is /you/ getting better. The Group gets better.
"I burned a feat for this so I get 10% off the top" just doesn't fly for me. I realize thats just my opinion and you don't have to agree- but its still my opinion.
-S
All I know is when I adventure, in adventure activities are compensated by party share. When I cast a spell, use a consumable, ect, its for my part of the party share. Same thing goes for when the barbarian smashes, uses his potion to enlarge, and blocks the charge lanes to the squishies. What happens in down time is not for party share, unless you are roleplaying a commune it makes no sense in game to craft for free.
In terms of game balance, any time a caster makes something for a party member instead of himself, he is losing out on some serious wealth. 1000 gold in crafting gives the character 2000. 1k increase in character wealth. If party cleric decides that the wizard should make something for him, the cleric gains a similar benefit in character wealth. But that means the wizard misses out on a 1k increase in his own power.
Spreading the wealth around is fine, but anytime you make the wizard craft for free, you aren't spreading the wealth equally. You are stealing wealth from the productive classes to enrich yourself. You aren't entitled to his wealth or his ability to generate wealth by any means. The anger on this topic is the party feels entitled to free character wealth at the expense of the wizard.
If you instead pay the wizard a 500 gold tip, you still increased your wealth by 500. His wealth increased 500, so you still have balance. The percentage of the tip to keep balance should be based on number of people getting items crafted vs the amount the wizard is making for himself, and how much money the party is making in side jobs the wizard can't do since he is crafting for the party.
A 5-10 percent tip for a full party is quite fair to ask for, and by any standard VERY generous.
Heh, End The Exploitation of the Crafting Classes, Expand Fair Trade to Magic Item creation*
*joking, don't take offense anybody.
This was totally unexpected by this group since they are always very mature, am i missing something and being "that guy" without knowing? Is this some kind of delicate argument in the average group?
Some advice on how to deal with this situation will be most appreciated! :)
In my opinion you did nothing wrong. You are still spending a large portion of your characters time to give them a significant discount for magic items. The fact you want compenstation for your time is completely resonable.
Their argument is flawed. You aren't charging by the magic missle or charging for your Knowlege skill checks. You offer those up free as a memeber of the party.
If for instance the fighter had a craft arms skill high enough to create masterwork short swords... he would be well within his right to charge to make one for the party rogue.
I would explain that to the party... and then hike my price up to 20% and tell them to stop crying or it goes up again. If they dont like it tell them to find another mage... at which point you can bring in another mage without the feat... and they can pay full price.
In all seriousness, what I would probably do is craft for free under the following conditions:1) My character has time that he isn't making use of.
2) My character isn't already in the middle of another crafting project. Remember that you have to scrap a project to start another one.
3) I'm willing to commit my character's crafting skill to the other player's project for the amount of time it will take.If any of those conditions isn't met, you'll have to pay me something in order to get me to drop what I'm doing and work on your stuff. If you don't like it, you can have instant gratification and buy it in a shop for a great deal more money.
This seems very reasonable. But then so does flat cost+10%. Heck, you could even offer interest-free financing, OP.
Selgard and AdmantiumDragon
Would you object if the wizard used his downtime to make stuff for himself and then just partied the rest of the time, or spent it making connections with sages and others in the magical community. Since it is a Kingmaker campaign, perhaps running the countries Acadamy of Magic.
He did not make stuff for the party or profit off them, but then did not make stuff for them either?
If the PC was just thumbing his nose at everyone saying "screw you guys, you won't pay my 10% then I'm not making anything for you" then while he was out partying, we'd be out finding another party member. Dude could party until the sun stopped burning for all we cared.
But by that same vein- no one is asking for a crafting slave. They are just asking to not be robbed by another PC in the same group. If the PC had something else to do- even if that something was just to take a rest- I don't think anyone would have a problem.
Also: making contacts isn't "doing nothing". its doing *something* to further the aims of the group. Just like the cleric going to his temple to schmooze with them, or the rogue going to the bar and doing some gather information.
I said it in another post but I'll say it again:
I've never, ever had a crafter refuse to make something when he had the time. Why? because every time he makes someone better through his creations, he's increasing his own personal life expectancy. In our current AP I have a witch who can scribe scrolls. He has literally used this feat *one time* in 13 levels. Another player asked me to make him some scrolls, we had down time, I said sure why not?
The Wizard in the group, on the other hand, has several feats and uses them *all the time*. I can't even tell you all the stuff he's made for folks (since I don't keep track) but he's made the rogue's sword better and the fighter's sword better.. I really don't know what else. he's always crafting. And he's always asking if someone wants something made, so he isn't wasting down time. Is he just such a nice generous guy IC? Maybe. But he's also big on not dying in combat. Making the fighter and rogue better make the group better. Lets us kill more things, faster, and easier. Easier than very nearly any other feat he could possibly have taken. Is he skimming off the top? Not that I've been made aware of. All he'd be doing was hurting the guy he's trying to help.
-S
Now suppose yoru character came to mine and said "Can you help me out, the Merchant in town wants to charge me 40k for a Ring fo freedom of movement. I can't afford that."
I respond "I'm fairly busy but tell you what give me a little over a month and I will make one for you for 22k".
Would I be being a "crafting Nazi"? My character would have other things he would be doing but since he works with you as a friend and companion he is willing to do things he normally would not.
Yes. Because you decided to directly profit from your friends dilemma rather than do the bro thing.
Nothing stopped you from asking him to run errands for you in the interim.
Nothing stopped you from arranging some other agreement like having the fighter go out and about and gather things for your experiments.
Nothing stopped you from asking him to go to a boring ball in your stead.
Instead you demanded cold hard cash. Which is something I did not have much of to begin with if I had to come to you.
Very nicely put Selgard.
It boils down to "don't be a jerk to the people who are saving your life."
Sure you can choose to be a jerk, but then accept the consequences.
The underlying problem is that *everyone benefits from the crafter crafting*.
I'll say it again. *everyone benefits from the crafter crafting*....
Not always and not equally.
... We're playing A Cooperative game.
When player A gets better, the group improves.
If you are part of the group, you should be trying to help player A get better.If the crafter is charging for it, he is getting a double benefit. The group is getting better, ...
Why does cooperating mean doubling everybody elses' wealth while the wizard gets nothing. That does not sound like cooperating to me.
... and he's also stealing from his party member...
That doesn't even make sense. If the grocery store offers you Campbels soup at 40% off are they stealing from you?
... The party isn't competing internally ...
Then why are the others trying to double their wealth at the expense of the wizard?
... The fighter charging to use his sword is just as wrong as the wizard charging to use his feat. They are in business together- the business of putting baddies into the ground. They aren't charging each other for it- they are already benefiting from their mutual arrangement. (i.e. killing bads, looting them, and moving on) ...
But you are not talking about the same thing. The fighter using his sword in the fight is the same as the wizard using his spells in the fight. That is the business they are in the adventuring. You are saying the wizard has to donate his non-business time to the fighter.
... The wizard taking off the top is idential to the rogue stealing an item from the hoard before the rest of the group gets there. ...
They are not even similar. The thief IS stealing. The group knows nothing about and had no say in the decision and it reduces their wealth.
The wizard is not taking off the top. That would be the wizard getting a 10% of the treasure before the party divides it. No one has proposed that and I think everyone would agree that is unfair.
The wizard gives you a CHOICE that you can take or leave, it is your decision. And increases your wealth by 80% (just not the 100% you want).
...You don't get to take your character options and then start charging other party members for them....
Why not. You are effectively charging the wizard for not taking those same options. Your wealth goes up by 100% his does not.
Again, real life. You cooperate with the people at your job so you can all make a living and still have a place to work.
Do you expect your co-worker to come over and spend his time re-roofing your house while you wath the game and drink a beer for free?
That is what you are saying. He has the skill to roof a house. I don't. he made that choice instead of a degree that would have made him better at work. We are supposed to cooperate at work. So he should do my house free of charge in his free time.
That just doesn't make sense.
I would explain that to the party... and then hike my price up to 20% and tell them to stop crying or it goes up again. If they dont like it tell them to find another mage... at which point you can bring in another mage without the feat... and they can pay full price.
And that would happen. Because not only is he being exploitative he's being a t@~~ about it.
I would explain that to the party... and then hike my price up to 20% and tell them to stop crying or it goes up again. If they dont like it tell them to find another mage... at which point you can bring in another mage without the feat... and they can pay full price.
If it were me, I would (In Char) do exactly that. When they kicked me out, I would then bring in the same build of caster minus the crafting feats. Then when I hear them complain that they can't afford an item, I'll mention to them (In Char) that if they continue to save thier money they can visit a certain "now NPC" crafter that is open for buisness at full price in a shop around the corner.
Yeah, it's petty revenge on my part, but a sweet revenge at that.. muahahaha.