Alienfreak's page

Can a weapon go higher than +10 when a Paladin uses their divine bond ability?

The ability itself says that it stacks with any bonuses the weapon has (but doesn't double the effect, so no Holy/Holy doing 4d6 to evil) and it doesn't say there's an enhancement limit.
I'd assume since it's a temporary buff that it would stack, but I'd like to know the RAW just to be safe (I don't want to find/buy a +10 weapon in my career just to find out that I can't use my ability anymore!)

Cheers!

It is clearly stated that the enhancement of the weapon cannot go beyond +5.

So it is not able to be an EPIC or DIVINE weapon (or however it is called now) and thus also subject to the maximum of +10.

Alienfreak wrote:

Why are they wasting resources? Everyone spends only one feat and they get virtually all magic items there are for 50% of the listed price.

How is that WASTING RESOURCES?

We should talk about your values sometimes, because I would call that a big push to the group power.

They are wasting resources by getting feats another party member already has just to get back at what they percieve is an unfair practice. I don't know how your games work, but if I was offered to buy a feat for a measly 50gp I would jump all over it. And that is exactly what is going on here.. The other party members are using the crafters feats and skills at no cost or time expense to themselves.

-
Your values would seem to support "Whats mine is mine, and what's yours is mine". That's just not how the world works.

Its not 50gp.

The gain #1 is that they don't shove their hard earned money down the throat of that cleric (which they obviously dislike) .
#2 is that they don't run into risk that that obviously jerky greedy character will up his prices or as you always promote stop working for the others because he has cooler shinier things to craft (with the money he ripped off them in the first place). Which will cut them off custom crafted magic items all too easily. Thats quite a high risk, wouldn't it?
#3 is that if you have limited time at your hands the production capacity is greatly improved.
#4 they now have more than just wondrous items. Rings. Rods. Armor. Weapons.

So by me saying that everyone takes one feat and shares for the good of everyone your conclusion is that I am a selfish person ripping others off?
Seriously. Stop trying to be philosophic or anything. It honestly makes my head hurt at the moment. Its just too much...

So the party rogue takes skill focus (stealth) and buys some good boots/cloak for it and dumps a /ton/ of skill points into that and sleight of hand.

The next time some big bad dies he makes some die rolls, passes a note to the DM, and scores something off the top. Into his pocket, no one notices.

Is he a thief? Is it "alright" because he dumped skills and feats into it?

Nope. A thief is a thief. Using your class abilities to steal from the players is.. well.. stealing from the other players.

The more I think about it, the more I'd just IC ditch the character and leave him at his temple to Abadar, wish him luck and move on without him. Which is exactly what would happen to the Thief, assuming the DM had a "no pvp" rule.. (in which case they would die, for becoming an enemy to the party. for the thief anyway, not necesarily applicable to the cleric here)

However you frame it, however you work around it, your character is using his feats/skills/whatever to steal money from the group. Its really just that simple. You can claim its for your god, you can claim you are getting something back for your feat taken, you can pretty much claim whatever you want.

But you are still stealing money from the group you are supposed to be friends and comrades with- IC.
And IC, you shouldn't expect to hang out with them very long.
At least, in every group I've ever been with in my entire life. *they* would all consider it theft. And I would too.

Your mileage may vary- but by the OP's original post, it seems they too take a very dim view of the activity.

-S

Which is a good point here.

So you are all friends in that group and everyone makes a character which ends up being a part of the group.
Now you are making someone ripping the group off.

The party has 5 People. 4 out of that 5 people don't like such behavior.
So a quick question: How did that one character end up in the party while 4/5th of the group dislikes such persons. Who accepted him in the party? Why do they still work with him?

A group is more or less (unless its campaign specific of course) a democratically governed business organisation. You retrieve treasure and solve quests.
So everyone in the group is getting employed by the group.
Now would you employ someone you just can't stand in your group or rather take another guy who is in your line?

The answer here is easy: noone would take the jerk.

Resume: You are FORCING your character upon the group which would never end up in such a group under any circumstances and justify your behavior with ROLEPLAYING while you are more a ROLLPLAYER than anything else. There is no reason why the group would be sticking around with the kinds of your character.
The sole reason why your character is in there is because everyone is metagaming and knows that this character is played by you and you are a member of that RPG group.

Alienfreak wrote:

TarkXT wrote:

Quote:

Fact is, the crafter invested feats and skills not to mention boat loads of time, to increase the party's wealth. They should return the favor in minimal financial compensation.

Or simply not use your services and dedicate their collective feats and skills to get the items themselves without the inconvenience of pandering to a profiteering wizard trying to further exploit the crew that he fights and bleeds with.

The rest of the group which are 4 people who can all craft magic items should take one feat each:

Craft Wondrous Items
Craft Magic Arms and Armor
Craft Rods
Craft Rings

And pool their production capabilities with each other and don't give anything to the greedy wizard.
Having all crafting feats on separate characters which can spit out armies of magic items in no time while screwing over the group jerk who gets stuck on taking 4 feats himself or having only one type of items?
PRICELESS.

So you would waste other party members resources in an attempt to "get back" at someone you percieve as being a jerk? Quite petty. Besides hows that fighter or barbarian going to meet the caster level req's to take the feat?

Look, the crafter is taking the feats so they don't have to. Reward him for it.

1:

the other party member are a paladin a LG oracle, a NG inquisitor and a N druid.

2:

3:
Why are they wasting resources? Everyone spends only one feat and they get virtually all magic items there are for 50% of the listed price.
How is that WASTING RESOURCES?

We should talk about your values sometimes, because I would call that a big push to the group power.

Alienfreak wrote:

Btw. where is stated that the character has free time anyway and that not 24 hours are to be devoted to the good of the group?

Um. What? Non-Sequitur here. Nobody is required to give 24 hours to anybody in this game.

Where are work day hours defined?

I know that you travel for 8 hours a day.
I know that you craft for 8 hours a day etc. pp.

But where does it tell you that adventurers have FREE TIME?

Fact is, the crafter invested feats and skills not to mention boat loads of time, to increase the party's wealth. They should return the favor in minimal financial compensation.

Btw. where is stated that the character has free time anyway and that not 24 hours are to be devoted to the good of the group?

First on the subject of profteering. A mage is NOT going to charge 50 percent to Joe the Merchant, and 60% to his companion Bob the fighter.

There is no reason for him to sell to Joe the merchant he is giving up his time for nothing. He usually would not sell to Joe the Merchant even at 60% because it is not worth his time, but for his friend Bob he makes an exception.

The 10 percent he is charging is covering his "opportunity cost" for doing the work or at least part of it.

The wizard spends 40 days making a Ring of Freedom of Movement for the Rogue. He charges the rogue 22000 instead of the 40000 the rogue would buy it for.

During that 40 days the rogue used his skills and perhaps his leadership feat to make 5k from fencing loot from the guild he formed when teh wizard was crafting for other part members.

So at the end of 40 days the Rogue is +3k (and saved 18k on a ring) and the wizard is +2k.

If instead the wizard had formed an Academy for wizards and started a college of learning he might have due to Tuition and Guest Speaker fees made 5k for himself during that 40 days. That is the opportunity cost the gives up for enchanting for his friends.

Now if all downtime is handwaved and NOONE else gets to do anything in downtime then it might be reasonable for teh wizard not to be compensated. But if people get to do things in downtime and can make other profits in downtime, then it is reasonable to in some small way compensate the wizard (and 10 percent is very small).

You are speaking about House Rules?

Those are AWESOME!

Because per RAW a fighter makes exactly 0gp/day between his encounters.

Lets look at this another way. The chars in the OP were 5th level. 5th level WBL is listed at 10,500. Now if all his money was spent to the crafter to make items for him @10%, the crafter would earn a whopping 1909gp. Yet he increased the party members WBL to essentially 20,999gp.

It truely is worth it to pay the 10%. And like I mentioned, my costs are a gp per day thing, which calculates closer to 5%. Now tell me that it's unreasonable to ask to be compensated for your time and effort into making someone else rich. Even a slave laborer would cost the party 500gp for christs sake, and you expect me to be your slave and do your crafting bidding for free. Completely unreasonable if you ask me.

You want 100gp per day at level 5 while even a DC30 check on a skill is worth 3d6gp (so in average 10.5).

Yeah you are totally reasonable.

Mistwalker wrote:

I have posed a few questions to the free crafting crowd on a few subjects (including taking another feat and profiting off of that - poetry), and for the most part, they have bypassed those questions, leading me to believe that the answers would not have helped their case.

Actually, I for one had to zip off and only just made it back to my console. Funnily enough, I was giving a friend a lift to the doctors - and strangely, I didn't charge her for the favour. I generally don't charge my friends for helping them out because they are my friends. I know that if the situation were reversed they'd help me out, and in the past they have.

Back on subject:

My argument was that if players take feats and abilities that can help the party, they are generally expected to do so without milking the people who gave of their time and energy to the success of the team for free. Of course if the party have a system worked out where the fighter gets paid per kill, the rogue per trap sprung, the cleric per heal etc. that's all well and good.

It may be a bit metagamey, but the basic argument remains that the player who has invested in crafting feats hasn't invested in feats that save his backside, or take down foes, or otherwise contribute during adventures. As a result, everyone else is going to have to work a bit harder. Compensation is that he can make sure they have cheaper/more bespoke gear to go adventuring with. It's in his own interest to do so, so why would he charge more than cost? It's the way I have always worked crafting characters.

So far I haven't seen anything put up by anyone to convince me this isn't the best way, although I have been amazed at how mercenary some people are in their lives.

100% on point.

People are always arguing that they are such good ROLEPLAYERS instead of ROLLPLAYERS if they argue that their time is worth something.
Yet people to a lot of things in their free time for free.

Also your point with the pricing system is also right on. If I start pricing my feat a) what is worth his skillpoint b) per use?
If you have a fair system for that ride on I say. But in the end everyone will pay each other then and everyone ends up with the same amount of money he started with. So its not really worth doing because you have a lot of work for that system for everyone ending up with the same sum of money and everything that happens is that you drown in a flood of paper on which you note who owes whom how much money.

Mist:

I believe that the profiteering crowd is not understanding the arguments.

I don't have any problem with someone taking a magic item crafting feat to profit from it.

But not by profiting from the other party members.

Make and sell all you want, but when you charge the party for it, you are adjusting the party loot to your benefit simply because you chose a non-combat feat.

As I have said repeatedly... If you want to play a profiteer who makes money from the players, then you better be prepared to be seen as a profit center for the other party members too.

In certain neutral and most evil parties, this is fine.

In a party that is supposed to be heroically good, this is not fine.

If you charge me for a magic sword, then don't be surprised when I ask for gold for a heal. You profit from providing what I need. I profit from providing what you need.

It's just that simple.

Even with evil parties that is not an argument. Even evil people have friends. Things they care for. And most important: common sense.

The system just gets horrible once everyone charges each other money. And the OUT OF COMBAT argument is really a strawman here.
Fighters are not meant to be useful out of combat: Hence 2+int skillpoints, no abilities
Bards and almost all full spellcasters are good out of combat.

So it means if you take a Fighter you suck because noone takes it because you can't make additional $$$$$ while all the other guys are ripping you off for each teleport, cure, using diplomacy out of encounters?
Especially considering the horrendous pricing of spellcasting compared to diplomacy being worth nothing at all because no wealth is generated and there are no tables for it?

I mean its OBVIOUS it was never meant to be like this and it gets all up to a clustershi... if you start it.
Its surely possible to do and balance. But this means A LOT of work for the DM to lay out his adventure so that the fighter is also useful out of combat (make him a noble the others need) and working out pricing tables which give every class about the same money.

Alienfreak wrote:

You are again assuming that you have to craft something essential for yourself and you are interrupting this for something that a fighter might need because its all fancy and shiney.

Let me just point out that there is ALWAYS something useful to upgrade to, at least until you get into the very high levels.

It starts with a cloak of resistance +1. It might end with a tome of quickness of thought +5.

Which assumes that you have infinite money. And that you fullfill the prerequirements and can make the check.

And still often a +1 on your AC (by upgrading it from +4 to +5) which takes you 4 Weeks (not the real number) to craft is highly inferior to crafting two items for other people which will get a +2 on their AC because they only have a +2 ring.

Dr Grecko wrote:

Well apart from some uneccesary caps yelling about how the feat is overpowered (which it is). The feat itself does not make the feat-taker overpowered outright. If he only crafted for himself I could see that, but he is crafting for the party, and his feat investment and time should be compensated.

Now, I explained earlier about uneven loot distribution, and if your party doesnt calculate out the cost of the entire loot pile and divide the spoils evenly by cost, a crafting wizard will get a smaller amount of loot as he doesn't need fancy armor, sheilds and weapons. One way to compensate for this is to craft for a cost.

I think it also depends on *which* crafting feat we're talking about. Potion, Scroll and Wand are hardly overpowered, Wondrous Items is excellent. I wouldn't say they're inherintly overpowered*, but can be imbalancing.

*** spoiler omitted **

Exactly on point (the second part).

Crafting of Wondrous Items and Arms & Armor are heavily overpowered in Pathfinder.
So the goal should be to balance them.

And being able to get money out of it is not even allowed by the RAW. And if we now add that to the heavily overpowered feats on top, which is basically what the original poster tries to do, it is exactly the different direction of what is supposed to happen to the feat.

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Crafting Wands is not much behind the other two. Consider that most groups almost exclusively heal via CLW Wands , the extreme proliferation of UMD and that its only a DC20 for Wands. So many characters can now easily buff themself with personal range spells which they should never have gotten their hands onto.

dragonfire8974 wrote:

oh yeah, maybe its a belt of con to make sure 2 fireballs won't roast you as a wizard. i understand that it could be anything, believe me, i'm an item creator.

but it doesn't mean that making yourself better is always the best way to go for the effectiveness of the party and thus your survival. that fighter needs a magic sword really quick just in case there's a shadow. if you're a wizard and the only one who can harm it, then you'll die pretty quick.

that's just an easy low level example of things. I agree with you that you get to determine priorities, but that doesn't mean that making things for other people is bad for you. Treatmonk would agree that you giving them the tools to do the work for you is more god-like

Maybe instead of a belt of con, you're boosting your touch ac with defensive gear so the shadow isn't that much of a threat to you. Then you'll kill it pretty easily, and move on.

For every "The fighter might need this because" there's an opposite "The wizard might use this because" argument. They go back and forth. The difference? One directly helps the wizard, and indirectly helps the party. The other indirectly helps the party and does jack directly for the wizard.

You are again assuming that you have to craft something essential for yourself and you are interrupting this for something that a fighter might need because its all fancy and shiney.

Alienfreak wrote:

dragonfire8974 wrote:

item crafting is the most powerful feat in the game hands down

NO TOO WEAK YOU NEED MORE COMPENSATION LIKE 20% CHARACTER WEALTH FOR TAKING IT ZOMG ITS A WHOLE FEAT YOU COULD SPEND ON +1 DC!!!!111111

wow... a +1 is really worth an extra 20% wealth? what if i take a voluntary DC penalty of -10? could i get and extra 200% wealth?

I guess I forgot my sarcasm tag...

Actually he wants 20% character wealth in top of having 100% optimized equipment in campaigns like KM.
You can always sell everything you have for 50% and craft the equipment you want for that level for 50%. All you need is time. And you have that in KM.

That was my point.

Recently i got the advice to not play such incredible and rediculous stong characters. This was solid advice and i take it to heart. My recent characters can be played so stong that others will be snowed over. As such i am looking for advice to create a character that is not incredibly powerfull and can solo an adventure, but a character that other people enjoy having at their table.

So, i need a characters personality concept.... a base to use with roleplaying. Plus i need to make a statwise character thats good in supporting others, rater then being a one man or girl army.

Im looking for humerous character designs, in which i mean personality and looks, but not a court idiot jester way.
And im looking for a statwise characterdesign that does a lot of good outside combat and as combat support.

Any ideas?

Inspire me, i need it. Im at a writers block.

Thanks.

Something is always overpowered only if compared to something else which is seriously weaker.

So first see what your DM wants of you. Then check the other groupmates with their characters. After all this you can say whether your char is OP or not.

Making a bad character is not really hard. Multiclass a lot. Gimp your stats. Don't take cool feats. Gimp your BAB. Gimp your Skillpoints. Be no spellcaster beyond your level/3.

Is there any way to do it for an illusionist without breaking out 3.5 material like the gnome illusionist sub levels or the shadow weave stuff from forgotten realms? Just curious, thanks!

Kill the thing using it. Dead people cannot use True Seeing :P

Otherwise there is no way to make your illusions (which are not on yourself) not being picked up by it...

The formula is hd+tchd. This can be expressed as hd(1+tc)

Another way to write it is h(d+s)+tchd.

h = Chance to hit, expressed as a percentage
d = Damage per hit. Average damage is assumed.
s = Precision damage per hit (or other damage that isn't multiplied on a crit). Average damage is again assumed.
t = Chance to roll a critical threat, expressed as a percentage.
c = Critical hit bonus damage. x2 = 1, x3 = 2, x4 = 3.

Thats the correct equation, I found it on Wraithstrikes link.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0Agi1_sfMtIkEdGtKMFl6Sm94YUFDaE 5PRy1Pb2ZQTkE

But it cannot catch the multitude of types of power there are.

Alienfreak wrote:

LazarX wrote:

BltzKrg242 wrote:

In previous versions you could "upgrade" to a hippogrif or similar over time. That option appears to have gone the way of the dodo?

That was always by DM approval, not part of the official rules set, even for 3.5.

But I would approve Leadership for getting a mount any time of the day. You wouldn't get anything besides that (and you can only advance it via racial HD).

;)

And your point being.....? Other than essentially agreeing with what I said?

I agreed with you :)

Giving the players options but without giving them everything.

BltzKrg242 wrote:

In previous versions you could "upgrade" to a hippogrif or similar over time. That option appears to have gone the way of the dodo?

That was always by DM approval, not part of the official rules set, even for 3.5.

But I would approve Leadership for getting a mount any time of the day. You wouldn't get anything besides that (and you can only advance it via racial HD).

;)

I'd rule that anything that can be ridden at the time the ability applies could be chosen. The Druid list has a LOT of things that are way too small.

In previous versions you could "upgrade" to a hippogrif or similar over time. That option appears to have gone the way of the dodo?

If a monstrous cohort is what you want why not take it?

I mean people treat ACs as substitutes for it somehow. But thats plain wrong.

Get a bonded weapon and Leadership at level 7.

Alienfreak wrote:

Quote:

This mount is usually a heavy horse (for a Medium paladin) or a pony (for a Small paladin), although more exotic mounts, such as a boar, camel, or dog are also suitable.

You can take:

Heavy Horse
Pony
Boar
Camel
Dog

You can't take a wolf.
Unless there is a wondrous statue of it. Then you can take that one via the extra feat.

When Text says "such as" they are not giving a specific, all inclusive list. They are giving examples. The choice at that point is what your GM considers Exotic.

Which still is my point.

It doesn't mean: Take the Druid List and cherry pick and argue that its now your EXOTIC mount.

Alienfreak wrote:

Quote:

This mount is usually a heavy horse (for a Medium paladin) or a pony (for a Small paladin), although more exotic mounts, such as a boar, camel, or dog are also suitable.

You can take:

Heavy Horse
Pony
Boar
Camel
Dog

You can't take a wolf.
Unless there is a wondrous statue of it. Then you can take that one via the extra feat.

This is true for Pathfinder Society, but "such as" allows for other options with GM discretion. So you can take a wolf, just ask your GM first.

Of course. But it is still a restricted list. A GM may of course expand that list according to his campaign (something fishy for underwater etc pp). But using the "such as" as a 'get out of jail' free card and saying that you can have your Big Cat or whatever as a premium animal companion is wrong.

If they had meant it that way they would just have given him the Druid list with the restriction that he must be able to ride on it.

This mount is usually a heavy horse (for a Medium paladin) or a pony (for a Small paladin), although more exotic mounts, such as a boar, camel, or dog are also suitable.

You can take:

You can't take a wolf.
Unless there is a wondrous statue of it. Then you can take that one via the extra feat.

Consider having the occasional encounter where the party is not running around in their full gear: at a royal ball (where weapons and armor are of course not allowed); in the middle of sleep (where many heavy armor users wear a silk nighty); in the depths of the sea; etc

At a certain level you can expect people to have glamered armor of comfort ;)

Why not just add+10 to the bad guys attack when he rolls to hi the Paladin? or a more subtle +5

they dotn know the stats I would just wing it if your busy, and it seems like you are.

Like I said:

advance any enemy two times. Gives +4 on everything.

Alienfreak wrote:

THIS is where your problem is!
Its like saying: I give my players a 50 point buy and suddenly all the AP encounter are a cakewalk for them!

In fairness, it is more like saying: I handed out the treasure in the AP as written, and used the magic item crafting rules from the core rulebook, and suddenly all the AP encounters are not challenging one member of the party.

Seems to me this could happen to anyone, and I won't be allowing PCs to craft permanent magic items if I ever run this AP.

That Paizo completely failed as a developer on fixing magic item creation is no secret.

They took the old system removed 1/5 of the cost to craft items (if you consider their old rule 5gp per xp) and made it easier to craft items. You can now substitute crafting prerequirements, craft faster and craft while not even having to sit down in a quiet lab for it.

And now it is up to the DMs to fix it.

Alienfreak wrote:

Giving a 10th level Character a lot of wealth and then come back crying? His Ring alone is 40.000gp. Add in a (probably) +3 Weapon and +3 Armour & Shield and we already are over his wealth. Add in the Ring of Protection, Cloak of Resistance and his inevitable stat boosters it is even crazier. I mean has he like 120k wealth?

Also his Ring of Protection and his Smite Evil DO NOT STACK.

Can you give us a quick roundup of all his magic items?

** spoiler omitted **

All treasure is pretty much the standard stuff found in the AP.

He has +2 Armour, +2 shield. +2 Ring of Prot, +2 defending longsword, +2 Cloak Resist, +4 Headband of Cha, Ring of Freedom of Movement Some of this stuff was made by the PC caster. Plus obviously various potions etc and a bag of holding. Armour might be +3 dont have character in front of me.

But I have not been pumping up the treasure. If anything I tone back on what is handed out as standard in the AP

So we are looking at

10.5k
4k
8k
18k
4k
16k
40k

That alone is 100.5k! Lvl 10 is supposed to have 62k and lvl 11 82k.
So he is, even without the bag of holding and his other misc stuff, about 80-100% overwealth!

THIS is where your problem is!
Its like saying: I give my players a 50 point buy and suddenly all the AP encounter are a cakewalk for them!

Item crafting is no get out of character wealth free card. Its your job as DM to get their treasure in line or just bump all the enemies without increasing their CR, because how is something a CHALLENGING encounter for them if they are a lot more powerful?
Either take away their fancy stuff or make all enemies two times simple advanced without doing anything on their CR or treasure. That means all saves +4, AC +4, to hit +4, damage +4, HPs +4/HD, +4 skillpoints/HD (but that is mostly optional to use).

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AND KEEP AN EYE THAT HIS RING OF PROT DOESN'T STACK WITH HIS SMITE! Most players seem to ignore that rule based on my personal empirical data ;)

Deyvantius wrote:

Clerics got weak in Pathfinder?

Still one of the most powerful classes in my eyes.

Nope, still a full tier one spellcaster. Mind you the often talked about but rarely used CodZilla build was nerfed a bit.

The cleric has such a bad spelllist in PF. Its hard to even describe this in words. Just take a look at it. It even hurts.

Druids have by far a better spelllist (except Heal being 7 instead of 6). And are more powerful anyway.
Druids are the new clerics.

Witches are the new white mages.

True, creating one's own magic items is pretty useful. And now I wonder if taking Craft Wand for my Sorcerer in an on-going Council of Thieves game was a bad idea. The lack of money has really limited the creation of magic items for the group as a whole...

( Also, I'm considering replacing the Inquisitor's Deception sub-domain with the Heresy inquisition )

How can you have too little money for crafting? You craft for exactly the amount you sell for. If you have too little money to craft you have too little loot at all for your level. With and without the feat :)

Clerics got weak in Pathfinder?

Still one of the most powerful classes in my eyes.

Inquisitors are my favorite and dwarf is a great choice. Pick a god with the Travel domain and you should be set.

If being better than the Rogue counts as "most powerful classes", then yes :)

That sounds needlessly complex. Then again, if I never tell him of that restriction, he wouldn't think about stealing it in the first place. Kinda like how keeping a mediocre AC causes most DMs to sub-consciously target you more often than the guy with massively high AC and a reach weapon.

CMA&A is the best that can ever happen to a fighting type.

No more +1 Longsword of Fail and Despair finding (matching your Feats) while having that cool +3 Scimitar of Win in your pocket which you just can't really use because you don't have the feats on it.

You just craft what you need.

Does it allow for an Exotic Weapon to be taken, that trait?

Yes. Its 18gp. But you need to use THAT VERY WEAPON all the time. So you will need CMA&A. And have someone cast Masterwork Transformation on it.

But do not do this if you have a moronic DM that tends to steal Bonded Items, Spellbooks and so on all the time. He will do the same to your heritage weapon.

Hey guys thanks for advice.

High AC comes from magical armour and shield with a defending longsword and ring of protection. Also has stalwart defender and when possible smites (paladin). 10th level character and when his is properly buffed etc gets his AC over the 40 without breaking too much of a sweat.

Grappling etc is out of the option as he has a ring of freedom of movement. Spells etc are difficult as he has massive saves due to Very high Cha Paladin and cloak of resistance.

Swarms have worked in the past very well. And I successfully turned him to stone when he rolled a 1 on his save vs a basilisk the other day.

His character is designed to rush up and engage in Melee while the spell caster and Archer hang back and unload from range. He is also backed up in Melee by a combat Druid and a Cleric of Gorum. So manouvering past them to get at the squishies is difficult.

As I said I have to bump up the attack rolls on most bad guys just to be even able to have a chance of hitting him. The end result is if any other players stand beside him in melee they almost automatically get hit (reducing their fun obviously)

Smiting and rust monster etc seem like quite good ideas. Although I feel a little bad at the idea of destroying an expensive suit of magical armour on him. Spell casters generally try to remove him from combat by surrounding him in a wall of stone or ice etc.

Giving a 10th level Character a lot of wealth and then come back crying? His Ring alone is 40.000gp. Add in a (probably) +3 Weapon and +3 Armour & Shield and we already are over his wealth. Add in the Ring of Protection, Cloak of Resistance and his inevitable stat boosters it is even crazier. I mean has he like 120k wealth?

Also his Ring of Protection and his Smite Evil DO NOT STACK.

Can you give us a quick roundup of all his magic items?

Okay, so I have the option of going for Shortsword and Weapon Finesse (and Pirahna Strike), or then go for Longsword and some more focus on Power Attack and such.

...I think the only thing that would make the difference now is what I end up rolling when I do get to play this character. It's also quite likely this character will be Human. Anyway, thanks for all the tips folks. I'll see how it goes, given that while this character idea is Neutral Evil, he's not that much a nasty person.

As Human you could still take Heritage Weapon (Falcatta) as a Trait or take the Feat. Or do you want to dip?

@Alienfreak

1. You sure it isn't Dex=Str>Con=Wis for this one?

2. Most likely will start at level 1. If not, then level 3.

3. I'm not proficient with any good two-handed weapons, and they don't really fit the concept. Falcata sounds fine, though.

4. I did consider dipping to Rogue for Disable Device, but I wasn't sure if any class dips were worth losing the caster levels.

1. Depends on what you wanna do. If you want to be a viable Melee then you need all the Melee Power you can get and that means STRENGTH!

2. Depends on the other classes. If you have no other Cleric or so Bless is pretty good. Otherwise I would say the Litany Spells are rather good (because they are swift actions) and things that buff yourself like Divine Favor...

3. If you not like "real" THW then Falcatta or Longsword is surely the way to go. Falcatta if you take it via feat/heritage weapon or Longsword if you take it via Ranger.
Be sure to have a Shield with you if you need a little extra AC.

4. I think one level of Ranger is worth it here. You get a full bab, weapon proficiencies, trapfinding and fav enemy (depends on campaign if it is useful).
If you do not want to have Trapfinding (as in disarming magical traps) then I wouldn't take it.

5. For Races I would say Human, Half-Elf (Ancient Weaponry) or Half-Orc.
Human has the Feat (but Half-Elf will be as good here) but has no sight modi which is really bad for sneakies. Half-Elf has Low Light Vision which is okay unless you run around in unlit caves or dungeons in which any light source will give you away. Half-Orc does not have this problem but has nothing else you would really want.
For Humans or Half-Elf you can later take Eyes of the Owl/Night for low light or darkvision. Half-Elf/Orc would later have both, though.

With your God and if you do not want to dip I would go Half-Elf with a Falcatta. If you want to dip I would go Half-Orc or Human with a Longsword.

6. Other Feats you might want include CWI and CMA&A. Nothing beats Crafting Feats in Pathfinder. Perfect equipment or saving money on the go without having to dedicated craft? Yes please.

Okay, I have no idea how this class is supposed to work, but I got curious about building an Inquisitor of Norgorber who'd probably have the Deception Sub-Domain from Advanced Player Guide and the Infiltrator archetype from Ultimate Magic as well as some fitting traits.

So, my questions:

1. What stats should I focus on?

2. Which spells should I take?

3. Feat recommendations?

4. Is there an Inquisitor optimization guide that could answer these questions?

Thanks in advance to everyone. Unless I can build a good Inquisitor (stat-wise, at least), I'll just run this character as a Cleric of Norgorber instead, hopefully with enough of an Intelligence score to place a few skill points here and there. (The groups I am in usually roll stats instead of using point-buy, so it might not be too much of a problem)

1.

2.
What level are you?

3.
Depends on the build.

I would strongly suggest you take a two handed weapon instead of those two weapons. Why?

Really simple: For casting you need a free hand and this means THWs rock!!!!

Also THW take the least feats and are cheaper and in the end better than TWF (Focused Strike...)

So the choice is rather hard here with Norgorber. He has a sh1tty Short Sword :/
We have 3 ways to go:
1: Reach Weapons are good for casting types because you do not have to make a 5ft step not to take AoOs or if the enemy has 10ft reach you can 5ft step and provoke no AoOs.
Here I would go with the good old Spear
2: Normal Primitive Weapons aren't really that good when it comes to two handed weapons. But we can always take the classy morning star for B&P damage and wield it two handed
3: You either take a heritage weapon or a weapon proficiency or dip another class. Now if you want reach go Ranseur if you don't want it either go Greatsword or Falcatta (wield it two-handed).

Feat choices here obviously are:
Weapon Focus
Power Attack
Focused Strike

4.
If you want to be a real rogue surrogat I would suggest you try to dip 1 level into ranger (trapper) or rogue (1-2 levels).
This gives you Disable Device as class skill and you can disarm magical traps.
Ranger gives you good weapon choices (see above...) and a full BAB for one dip level. Plus a Favored Enemy that might or might not come in handy. Depends on the campaign I guess.
Rogue gives you a bit of flanking damage as well as more class skills (UMD...). If you take it two levels it also gives you Evasion (now you feel really like a Rogue) and a Rogue Talent (Trap Spotter or Fast Stealth...)

Alienfreak wrote:

Icyshadow wrote:

I wonder why the Inquisitor just hasn't ever gotten my interest as a class which I could make a proper character to. Then again, after seeing this thread, I am thinking of changing my Cleric of Norgorber into an Inquisitor of Norgorber. But it's only a maybe.

If you use him more as a melee cleric be sure to do it.

Clerics got really weak in PF.

Inquisitors have more Skillpoints (always cool), have most of their buffs as swift actions and are really versatile.
And you still have some buffs like Divine Favor lying around just in case you have a Lesser Rod of Quicken Spell or some time before combat.

Well, that does sound like the type of sneaky unholy warrior that he'd kinda be. Especially if I take the Deception sub-domain.

At least you don't have to cry out: IN NORGORBERS NAME I SHALL SMITE YOU! DIVINE FAVOR!!! *briiiiiiiiiiiiing*

Inqusitors also have Stealth & Perception as classskills which will come in handy. But note that the Conversion or Heresy Domains will suite you MUCH better. Conversion if you wanna be the real face or heresy if you just want to be good at stealthing.
Or you take the Infiltrator Archetype... or Preacher which is also good for solos.

I wonder why the Inquisitor just hasn't ever gotten my interest as a class which I could make a proper character to. Then again, after seeing this thread, I am thinking of changing my Cleric of Norgorber into an Inquisitor of Norgorber. But it's only a maybe.

If you use him more as a melee cleric be sure to do it.

Inquisitors have more Skillpoints (always cool), have most of their buffs as swift actions and are really versatile.
And you still have some buffs like Divine Favor lying around just in case you have a Lesser Rod of Quicken Spell or some time before combat.

Alienfreak wrote:

Heal heals 110HPs for a standard action at level 11.
Now this looks like quite an awesome encounter outdamaging it.

Did you read my post?

Quote:

None the less if one of your group drops and you hit him with your highest level curing spell it will make him get up again. And if you are in a group of 4 people we are talking about 25% fighting power either out of the encounter or in. Not to mention Breath of Life.
I fail to see how this is "of no advantage" here.

Yeah, he's back up, in single digits (maybe the teens).

Then he's back down and the monster still has a full attack -1 swing. So some one else (maybe you) gets smacked. Cure your buddy again, and than he's down again and another full attack from the baddie.

Now, not only is the party down a Fighter, who can't stay vertical long enough to get off a full-attack, they're down a Cleric, who's busy applying Band-Aids to axe wounds rather than fighting.

If the you had attacked, or used a spell to neutralize the baddie, you could have prevented one or more whole full attacks, or about 2-3x the hp you cured.

The only viable in combat cure is Heal. Clerics don't get that 'till level 11. Most campaigns don't go much past that. PFS stops at 12, most Pathfinder APs stop at 16. For 65-85% of the campaign combat healing doesn't work.

He gets healed from 1HP to maybe 34 HPs (4d8+10). In average a non Fighter (bard for example) will have 78.5 HPs (10d8+20+10). So with one spell from almost down (or dead) to 43% HPs. Not too shabby. Now if he doesn't outright enter melee again but maybe 5ft steps, draws an healing potion and uses it he will heal another 16.5 (3d8+5) leaving him with 56.5HPs. Thats 71,9% of his HP total. Good as new!

Okay your theory is all cool in the optimization board because, unlike healing, you can make THE BIG NUMBERS SHOW!!! YEAH!

As a cleric at that level with Divine Power on and Haste you will deal an average of 49.31 against AC26 (which is appropriate for that level... if not a bit low).
Now lets say that fight continues that round and two more. Your buddy will drop next round. He will about deal the damage of you. Now you can either have 3*49.31 or heal 34 HPs once (which doesn't look too shabby compared to 49.31) and have 4*49.31.
Hmmm... where is the bigger number?

.
.

Oh and a thing you missed: If he is on the ground or nearly so and you will not heal it. What keeps the enemy of using his lowest to hit iterative attack on the dude (it will hit against an object) and this little adventure now costs him at least 7000gp. Not to speak of resting at least a day. Of course I know that 15 minute work days are standard in your campaigns so that doesn't matter a lot...

.
.

Oh and I reread your posts and you had Heal in it. Sorry.
But still its questionable how you can advertise something as an "appropriate healer" if he gets Restoration at level 10 (which seems to be something GOOD and SUFFICENT in most groups it seems) and the other one gets Heal in level 11. The spell removing almost any debuff, healing you to almost 100% instantly...

The only requirement for a good healer is the ability to use CLW wands. Period.

If you need a great, stupendous, amazing healer, then you need access to the Heal spell. Heal is the only spell useful for combat healing with the possible exception of Channel Energy in a desperate pinch.

Every other healing spell simply can't keep up with the damage CR appropriate encounters can dish out. In tough encounters, combat healing is like the Dutch boy with his finger in the dam.

Now if you have access to swift healing, that's a different story. The problem is swift healing is hard to come by and a Quickened Cure Mod is a waste of a 6th level slot.

Alienfreak wrote:

Nothing beats more attacks.

Fighter: Here that Wizard, Nothing beats more attacks! Hurr, hurr!

Wizard: *snigger*

Heal heals 110HPs for a standard action at level 11.

None the less if one of your group drops and you hit him with your highest level curing spell it will make him get up again. And if you are in a group of 4 people we are talking about 25% fighting power either out of the encounter or in. Not to mention Breath of Life.
I fail to see how this is "of no advantage" here.

I think you guys read a bit too much about CLW AMSUMENESS in the "optimization boards" lately.
CLW trumps everything between encounters and healing magic should not be used unless someone is really low or dropped already. But in that situation nothing is better than healing magic.

I don't get this "you need a healer" malarkey. Just get CLW wands.

My players played through Legacy of Fire. Their only healer? A bard. That's right a bard. They did fine.

Inquisitors make decent healers. They have access to all the remove spells and get heal at higher levels. I would go so far as to postulate that they make better healers than druids because druids don't get remove paralysis, neutralise poison, restoration or remove curse.

As for paladins being a main healer. Well sure they can do that if you are only worried about hit point damage. But an inquisitor gets access to restoration at 10th level (3 levels ahead of the Paladin) which allows for the removal of permanent negative levels. Also an Inquisitor has access to far more spells so lesser restoration can be used more frequently.

All in all if you choose the right spells and get CLW wands they make perfectly decent healers.

Also the 3/4 BAB thing isn't an issue. Bane adds +2 to hit at 5th level as well as 2d6+2 to weapon damage. Furthermore if you kick off a justice judgement as well you can easily mitigate the difference in BAB with full BAB characters and even exceed it if you have both bane and judgement running. If you get the extra bane feat then you can be kicking that out all day. Plus with burst of speed and the outflank and precise strike teamwork feats you can effortlessly get to flanking positions for your melee colleagues whilst getting +4 to hit and +1d6 damage for yourself.

Alternatively you can act as a tank taking heavy armor proficiency and buffing yourself with the protection and healing judgements. Frankly inquisitors are the most versatile class in Pathfinder.

1.

BAB is a requirement for iterative attacks. Nothing beats more attacks. BAB is a requirement for feats. BAB can't be dispelled. BAB doesn't need an action to get buffed onto you.

Bane and Judgement for example can't be buffed in one round.
In the time you throw on your Bane he will start his Smite Evil. He will deal +10 damage and you +7. You get +2 to hit and he gets (most probably) +5-6 to hit. So in the first round you have +6 to +7 less to hit and deal 3 less damage per hit.
In the second round you throw in your double judgement for +3 to hit and +4 to damage. Even without the Paladin doing anything he WILL deal more damage right now. And he could just throw in his litany of brokenation for some serious double damage time.

This is against single foes of course. Against groups the Inquisitor is quite good. But not really a lot better than a Paladin.
Inquisitors are quite cool. But if you are looking for a secondary/primary healer he is not really any good.
Though in an easy mode campaign, which seems to be played often on these boards, he is viable as such.

I have a dm question here that needs urgent advice...

My undead villain has constructed his treasure chamber deep within a mountain.

Using Magic and mundane methods, the villain has sealed the chamber so that it is inaccessible without magical means, ie dimension door and teleport. The room is small, 10x10 and spherical.

The villain placed a living guardian in the room to breathe all of the remaining oxygen and die. He then returned and reanimated the humanoid into some sort of cr 13-14 undead (any advice here is good, but not really my question)

What my question is:

if the guardian is some sort of druid or oracle, she might have antilife shell cast on herself with the aid of the villains permanency spell. If the party dimension door's or teleport's into this chamber, what will happen?

Teleporting in would work.

It would be weird otherwise. Just make the caster an Outsider or Undead but his teammates are alive. So what happens now?
The caster would clearly be allowed to teleport in but the others not... this can't work out.

Teleporting works.

OK, I just got killed today (my character that is) so I need to make a new character.

We could use some healing umph in the party so I'm thinking of playing some sort of divine character. I've played lots of clerics before so I want to try something else.

I'm playing (and loving) an oracle in a different campaign, so i don't want to do another oracle.

I'm thinking an Inquisitor might be fun to play.

Anyone play an Inquisitor?

Was it fun to play? Not so much?

Any advice?

General thoughts?

Inquisitors are okay.

If you need healing DO NOT take one.
Paladins are better healers (espeially on themselves) and they have a full bab. If you play mostly against evil enemies you will also be by far more powerful than a Inquisitor.
The drawback here is your codex of course.

Two casters that can cast Ray of Exhaustion and later Waves of Fatigue/Exhaustion.
One Melee for blocking.
One Secondary Caster or Ranged that maybe has an Animal Companion for blocking and that is expendable.

There are parrots that can dial 911 and cry help when they see blood. Directing an animal to be sneaky should be easy enough. Hell, even my mouse can fetch me toothpicks.

Handle Animal states:

Quote:

Teach an Animal a Trick: You can teach an animal a

specific trick with 1 week of work and a successful Handle
Animal check against the indicated DC. An animal with
an Intelligence score of 1 can learn a maximum of three
tricks, while an animal with an Intelligence score of 2 can
learn a maximum of six tricks. Possible tricks (and their
associated DCs) include, but are not necessarily limited to,
the following.

So, with DM's approval, you can pretty much teach it anything (within reason). There are tons and tons of youtube videos and articles on amazing animals doing amazing things, and animal companions are, if anything, the best spceimens of their kind.

Ssssshhh... don't tell Paizo that my cat (and almost any) can open closed doors by jumping onto the handle.

Didn't you read the blog... ts...

The Bald Man wrote:

Isn't stealth a class skill for animals? By that logic it should be possible.

Is it complicated enough to warrant a trick? GM call, I guess.

Common remedy is to bump its INT up to 3 so that it is above animal intelligence and tricks aren't required anymore.

Sadly this is false by the rules Int 3 for animal companions is different than for everything else they still need tricks and handle animal to function.

Nope.

Even according to the failblog, that started bringing in feats and skills that act differently between whoever uses them (which is unsupported by the rules) as well as intelligence values, you could do that. And it is still an easy task to make an AC more intelligent than your group Fighter.

I think this has been discussed to death but the main point of the blog was to say that if the animal doesn't know what it is after increasing its int you still have to use handle animal. So if you tell it to smith a weapon for you it won't even know what that is.
But even that is a lame argumentation. Everything in D&D works on the basis that you SUDDENLY know something noone can ever learn in less than years as soon as you level up, gain a statbooster, whatever.

Not to mention that there are no rules about this. It would be way complicated now anyway trying to put reason into the rules and rule who can open a door and who cannot. Can your Unicorn open a door? Can your Dragon? Can your Solar? Hard to tell. Who knows how they grew up and whether they know the concept of a door. Not to speak of weird Outsiders made up out of Planestuff that are rather otherworldly. Can they grasp that concept?

I've tried to google it, but couldn't find a conclusive answer.

If I understand correctly, this means that any armor (apart from those specially enchanted with the wild property) is lost during the change.

At level 4, the druid can take the form of any animal of small or medium size. This means that, regardless of the form taken, his AC would be 10 + dex + natural armor ?

So, a druid with 14 dex who shapes into a medium tiger gets 14 AC (10 + 2 from dex + 2 from NA) ? Sounds almost like a autohit to me.

Does this mean a shapeshanged druid is awefully squishy ? Is this still a problem at higher levels ?

You are right.

But your Wildshape lasts really LONG even on lower levels. Just buy a barding and don it every time you wildshape. Nothing keeps you from it.
Though you will need a Dragon or Bone Armour. Bone is rather cheap and with a simple +1 enhancement it is as good as any other Armour.

As soon as you can afford a Wild Armour do so. And make sure its a fullplate!
While wildshaped you lose its max dex bonus, its acp and its reduction of movement speed.

Alienfreak wrote:

Ferio wrote:

Thanks for all the tips everyone. I've decided to go with a Wolf for a few reasons.

A) Flanking Partner for my teamwork feats.
B) Tripping is great when you are both murdering someone together.
C) Wolf can learn Tandem Trip at 5 (Inquisitor at 6) Thus making the wolf roll 2D20 and taking the better D20 for the trip result. (with his already good CMB, this means nearly 100% trip chance)

My feats are as follows: (Thanks for who pointed out MW studded leather gives no penalties even if you are not proficient with it!)

Level 1 - Power Attack
Level 2 - Weapon Focus (Bite)
Level 5 - Tandem Trip
Level 8 - Improved Natural Attack (Bite)
Level 10 - Vital Strike
Level 13 - ?

I'll take it to this point and hopefully get more ideas along the way!

You might also want to consider an Allosuaurs.

Both Tiger and Wolf only have 5ft reach. An Allosaurus has 10ft.

If you want a controller that uses Vital Strike use a Ankylosaurus. It has a Strength based Stun attack. Plus he has 10ft reach. Way better than the Wolf.

If you want a solid hitter with only one attack take a Tyrannosaurus. It gets powerful bite (so 2x str instead of 1.5x) and has a good 2d6 bite attack with grab.
And you probably guessed it here... it has 10ft reach!

If you insist on a tripper take a Stegosaurus. It has reach ;). Also it has 2d8 damage with its attack. If you take INA you end up with 3d8.

Reach is, especially for controllers with stun or trip, essential. You can just cover that much more area and get a lot more AoOs. Plus you can protect people by standing next to them or letting them ride on you.

EDIT: GAO GAO STEGOSAURUS!
EDIT2: If you worry about speed... horseshoes of speed (+30ft) are dirt cheap.

Thanks for the tip! Yeah I will keep this in mind for the future. Sadly for this campaign the DM has BANNED all Dino's. Thinks they don't fit in the world. Sad, but oh well.

Wouldn't wolf have reach as a large creature or am I missing something?

Wolves are long creatures and thus do not have reach. So its 10ft space but only 5ft reach.

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/animals/wolf/dire-wolf

See here for reference.

Thanks for all the tips everyone. I've decided to go with a Wolf for a few reasons.

A) Flanking Partner for my teamwork feats.
B) Tripping is great when you are both murdering someone together.
C) Wolf can learn Tandem Trip at 5 (Inquisitor at 6) Thus making the wolf roll 2D20 and taking the better D20 for the trip result. (with his already good CMB, this means nearly 100% trip chance)

My feats are as follows: (Thanks for who pointed out MW studded leather gives no penalties even if you are not proficient with it!)

Level 1 - Power Attack
Level 2 - Weapon Focus (Bite)
Level 5 - Tandem Trip
Level 8 - Improved Natural Attack (Bite)
Level 10 - Vital Strike
Level 13 - ?

I'll take it to this point and hopefully get more ideas along the way!

You might also want to consider an Allosuaurs.

If you want a controller that uses Vital Strike use a Ankylosaurus. It has a Strength based Stun attack. Plus he has 10ft reach. Way better than the Wolf.

If you want a solid hitter with only one attack take a Tyrannosaurus. It gets powerful bite (so 2x str instead of 1.5x) and has a good 2d6 bite attack with grab.
And you probably guessed it here... it has 10ft reach!

If you insist on a tripper take a Stegosaurus. It has reach ;). Also it has 2d8 damage with its attack. If you take INA you end up with 3d8.

Reach is, especially for controllers with stun or trip, essential. You can just cover that much more area and get a lot more AoOs. Plus you can protect people by standing next to them or letting them ride on you.

EDIT: GAO GAO STEGOSAURUS!
EDIT2: If you worry about speed... horseshoes of speed (+30ft) are dirt cheap.

Alienfreak wrote:

LazarX wrote:

Wearing metal is breaking the code you swore to when you became a Druid. Simple as that.

It is chaotic and evil. Thus you turn chaotic evil which is a forbidden alignment and then you are an Ex Druid and out of PFS. I already told you that...

Yes 3 times actually. The first time it was mildly funny, now it's just silly.

Are you SURE?

Donning Metal Armour is a Chaotic and Evil act and doing this once makes you chaotic and evil and thus you are disqualified for using this character in PFS.