Dr Grecko wrote:
Its not 50gp.
The gain #1 is that they don't shove their hard earned money down the throat of that cleric (which they obviously dislike) .
So by me saying that everyone takes one feat and shares for the good of everyone your conclusion is that I am a selfish person ripping others off?
Which is a good point here.
So you are all friends in that group and everyone makes a character which ends up being a part of the group.
The party has 5 People. 4 out of that 5 people don't like such behavior.
A group is more or less (unless its campaign specific of course) a democratically governed business organisation. You retrieve treasure and solve quests.
The answer here is easy: noone would take the jerk.
Resume: You are FORCING your character upon the group which would never end up in such a group under any circumstances and justify your behavior with ROLEPLAYING while you are more a ROLLPLAYER than anything else. There is no reason why the group would be sticking around with the kinds of your character.
Dr Grecko wrote:
1:I guess as often as my reading skills were now praised in this forum i should change my nickname to FALCON or something like that.
the other party member are a paladin a LG oracle, a NG inquisitor and a N druid.
2:And a Fighter or Barbarian doesn't need to meet the requirements for the feat.
We should talk about your values sometimes, because I would call that a big push to the group power.
Dr Grecko wrote:
Where are work day hours defined?
I know that you travel for 8 hours a day.
But where does it tell you that adventurers have FREE TIME?
Dr Grecko wrote:
Fact is, the crafter invested feats and skills not to mention boat loads of time, to increase the party's wealth. They should return the favor in minimal financial compensation.
Btw. where is stated that the character has free time anyway and that not 24 hours are to be devoted to the good of the group?
You are speaking about House Rules?
Those are AWESOME!
Because per RAW a fighter makes exactly 0gp/day between his encounters.
Dr Grecko wrote:
You want 100gp per day at level 5 while even a DC30 check on a skill is worth 3d6gp (so in average 10.5).And other feats and skills are worth... 0gp per day. Even if you make a DC50 check.
Yeah you are totally reasonable.
100% on point.
People are always arguing that they are such good ROLEPLAYERS instead of ROLLPLAYERS if they argue that their time is worth something.
Also your point with the pricing system is also right on. If I start pricing my feat a) what is worth his skillpoint b) per use?
Adamantine Dragon wrote:
Even with evil parties that is not an argument. Even evil people have friends. Things they care for. And most important: common sense.
The system just gets horrible once everyone charges each other money. And the OUT OF COMBAT argument is really a strawman here.
So it means if you take a Fighter you suck because noone takes it because you can't make additional $$$$$ while all the other guys are ripping you off for each teleport, cure, using diplomacy out of encounters?
I mean its OBVIOUS it was never meant to be like this and it gets all up to a clustershi... if you start it.
Which assumes that you have infinite money. And that you fullfill the prerequirements and can make the check.
And still often a +1 on your AC (by upgrading it from +4 to +5) which takes you 4 Weeks (not the real number) to craft is highly inferior to crafting two items for other people which will get a +2 on their AC because they only have a +2 ring.
Matthew Morris wrote:
Exactly on point (the second part).
Crafting of Wondrous Items and Arms & Armor are heavily overpowered in Pathfinder.
And being able to get money out of it is not even allowed by the RAW. And if we now add that to the heavily overpowered feats on top, which is basically what the original poster tries to do, it is exactly the different direction of what is supposed to happen to the feat.
Crafting Wands is not much behind the other two. Consider that most groups almost exclusively heal via CLW Wands , the extreme proliferation of UMD and that its only a DC20 for Wands. So many characters can now easily buff themself with personal range spells which they should never have gotten their hands onto.
You are again assuming that you have to craft something essential for yourself and you are interrupting this for something that a fighter might need because its all fancy and shiney.
I guess I forgot my sarcasm tag...
Actually he wants 20% character wealth in top of having 100% optimized equipment in campaigns like KM.
That was my point.
Something is always overpowered only if compared to something else which is seriously weaker.You can play the most maxed character in a maxed group and he will not look OP.
So first see what your DM wants of you. Then check the other groupmates with their characters. After all this you can say whether your char is OP or not.
Making a bad character is not really hard. Multiclass a lot. Gimp your stats. Don't take cool feats. Gimp your BAB. Gimp your Skillpoints. Be no spellcaster beyond your level/3.
Is there any way to do it for an illusionist without breaking out 3.5 material like the gnome illusionist sub levels or the shadow weave stuff from forgotten realms? Just curious, thanks!
Kill the thing using it. Dead people cannot use True Seeing :P
Otherwise there is no way to make your illusions (which are not on yourself) not being picked up by it...
Theos Imarion wrote:
But it cannot catch the multitude of types of power there are.
I agreed with you :)
Giving the players options but without giving them everything.
But I would approve Leadership for getting a mount any time of the day. You wouldn't get anything besides that (and you can only advance it via racial HD).
If a monstrous cohort is what you want why not take it?
I mean people treat ACs as substitutes for it somehow. But thats plain wrong.
Get a bonded weapon and Leadership at level 7.
Which still is my point.
It doesn't mean: Take the Druid List and cherry pick and argue that its now your EXOTIC mount.
Of course. But it is still a restricted list. A GM may of course expand that list according to his campaign (something fishy for underwater etc pp). But using the "such as" as a 'get out of jail' free card and saying that you can have your Big Cat or whatever as a premium animal companion is wrong.
If they had meant it that way they would just have given him the Druid list with the restriction that he must be able to ride on it.
You can take:Heavy Horse
You can't take a wolf.
At a certain level you can expect people to have glamered armor of comfort ;)
That Paizo completely failed as a developer on fixing magic item creation is no secret.
They took the old system removed 1/5 of the cost to craft items (if you consider their old rule 5gp per xp) and made it easier to craft items. You can now substitute crafting prerequirements, craft faster and craft while not even having to sit down in a quiet lab for it.
And now it is up to the DMs to fix it.
Snow Crash wrote:
So we are looking at
That alone is 100.5k! Lvl 10 is supposed to have 62k and lvl 11 82k.
THIS is where your problem is!
Item crafting is no get out of character wealth free card. Its your job as DM to get their treasure in line or just bump all the enemies without increasing their CR, because how is something a CHALLENGING encounter for them if they are a lot more powerful?
AND KEEP AN EYE THAT HIS RING OF PROT DOESN'T STACK WITH HIS SMITE! Most players seem to ignore that rule based on my personal empirical data ;)
The cleric has such a bad spelllist in PF. Its hard to even describe this in words. Just take a look at it. It even hurts.
Druids have by far a better spelllist (except Heal being 7 instead of 6). And are more powerful anyway.
Witches are the new white mages.
How can you have too little money for crafting? You craft for exactly the amount you sell for. If you have too little money to craft you have too little loot at all for your level. With and without the feat :)
That sounds needlessly complex. Then again, if I never tell him of that restriction, he wouldn't think about stealing it in the first place. Kinda like how keeping a mediocre AC causes most DMs to sub-consciously target you more often than the guy with massively high AC and a reach weapon.
CMA&A is the best that can ever happen to a fighting type.
No more +1 Longsword of Fail and Despair finding (matching your Feats) while having that cool +3 Scimitar of Win in your pocket which you just can't really use because you don't have the feats on it.
You just craft what you need.
Does it allow for an Exotic Weapon to be taken, that trait?
Yes. Its 18gp. But you need to use THAT VERY WEAPON all the time. So you will need CMA&A. And have someone cast Masterwork Transformation on it.
But do not do this if you have a moronic DM that tends to steal Bonded Items, Spellbooks and so on all the time. He will do the same to your heritage weapon.
Snow Crash wrote:
Giving a 10th level Character a lot of wealth and then come back crying? His Ring alone is 40.000gp. Add in a (probably) +3 Weapon and +3 Armour & Shield and we already are over his wealth. Add in the Ring of Protection, Cloak of Resistance and his inevitable stat boosters it is even crazier. I mean has he like 120k wealth?
Also his Ring of Protection and his Smite Evil DO NOT STACK.
Can you give us a quick roundup of all his magic items?
As Human you could still take Heritage Weapon (Falcatta) as a Trait or take the Feat. Or do you want to dip?
1. Depends on what you wanna do. If you want to be a viable Melee then you need all the Melee Power you can get and that means STRENGTH!
2. Depends on the other classes. If you have no other Cleric or so Bless is pretty good. Otherwise I would say the Litany Spells are rather good (because they are swift actions) and things that buff yourself like Divine Favor...
3. If you not like "real" THW then Falcatta or Longsword is surely the way to go. Falcatta if you take it via feat/heritage weapon or Longsword if you take it via Ranger.
4. I think one level of Ranger is worth it here. You get a full bab, weapon proficiencies, trapfinding and fav enemy (depends on campaign if it is useful).
5. For Races I would say Human, Half-Elf (Ancient Weaponry) or Half-Orc.
With your God and if you do not want to dip I would go Half-Elf with a Falcatta. If you want to dip I would go Half-Orc or Human with a Longsword.
6. Other Feats you might want include CWI and CMA&A. Nothing beats Crafting Feats in Pathfinder. Perfect equipment or saving money on the go without having to dedicated craft? Yes please.
I would strongly suggest you take a two handed weapon instead of those two weapons. Why?
Really simple: For casting you need a free hand and this means THWs rock!!!!
Also THW take the least feats and are cheaper and in the end better than TWF (Focused Strike...)
So the choice is rather hard here with Norgorber. He has a sh1tty Short Sword :/
Feat choices here obviously are:
At least you don't have to cry out: IN NORGORBERS NAME I SHALL SMITE YOU! DIVINE FAVOR!!! *briiiiiiiiiiiiing*Every time you wanna be able to do anything.
Inqusitors also have Stealth & Perception as classskills which will come in handy. But note that the Conversion or Heresy Domains will suite you MUCH better. Conversion if you wanna be the real face or heresy if you just want to be good at stealthing.
I wonder why the Inquisitor just hasn't ever gotten my interest as a class which I could make a proper character to. Then again, after seeing this thread, I am thinking of changing my Cleric of Norgorber into an Inquisitor of Norgorber. But it's only a maybe.
If you use him more as a melee cleric be sure to do it.Clerics got really weak in PF.
Inquisitors have more Skillpoints (always cool), have most of their buffs as swift actions and are really versatile.
Quantum Steve wrote:
He gets healed from 1HP to maybe 34 HPs (4d8+10). In average a non Fighter (bard for example) will have 78.5 HPs (10d8+20+10). So with one spell from almost down (or dead) to 43% HPs. Not too shabby. Now if he doesn't outright enter melee again but maybe 5ft steps, draws an healing potion and uses it he will heal another 16.5 (3d8+5) leaving him with 56.5HPs. Thats 71,9% of his HP total. Good as new!And if you now tell me that 43% of his HPs is not a lot I doubt your group will survive that encounter at all. Sorry
Okay your theory is all cool in the optimization board because, unlike healing, you can make THE BIG NUMBERS SHOW!!! YEAH!
As a cleric at that level with Divine Power on and Haste you will deal an average of 49.31 against AC26 (which is appropriate for that level... if not a bit low).
Oh and a thing you missed: If he is on the ground or nearly so and you will not heal it. What keeps the enemy of using his lowest to hit iterative attack on the dude (it will hit against an object) and this little adventure now costs him at least 7000gp. Not to speak of resting at least a day. Of course I know that 15 minute work days are standard in your campaigns so that doesn't matter a lot...
Oh and I reread your posts and you had Heal in it. Sorry.
Quantum Steve wrote:
Heal heals 110HPs for a standard action at level 11.Now this looks like quite an awesome encounter outdamaging it.
None the less if one of your group drops and you hit him with your highest level curing spell it will make him get up again. And if you are in a group of 4 people we are talking about 25% fighting power either out of the encounter or in. Not to mention Breath of Life.
I think you guys read a bit too much about CLW AMSUMENESS in the "optimization boards" lately.
1.In a tough adventure you need a healer. CLW are nice for between encounter healing but once people start going down during encounters a CLW is as good as a DC15 Skillcheck. Very useful.
You are arguing about a spell you will need not often...
Just buy a wand with 2 charges left for whatever you want. At least now you can use it in combat to help a person because it has no casting time of 1 Minute.
Lesser Restoration still has 3 rounds of casting time and most things you do with it can be easily done with a lay on hands with mercy while taking one standard action or a swift action
BAB is ALWAYS an issue.
To hit may not.
BAB is a requirement for iterative attacks. Nothing beats more attacks. BAB is a requirement for feats. BAB can't be dispelled. BAB doesn't need an action to get buffed onto you.
Bane and Judgement for example can't be buffed in one round.
This is against single foes of course. Against groups the Inquisitor is quite good. But not really a lot better than a Paladin.
Teleporting in would work.Those Shells on prohibit you moving into it. And you are not moving into it.
It would be weird otherwise. Just make the caster an Outsider or Undead but his teammates are alive. So what happens now?
Marc Radle wrote:
Inquisitors are okay.They are pretty fun to play and have a lot of skills.
The big drawback of them is the 3/4 BAB which just kills a lot of fun.
If you need healing DO NOT take one.
There are parrots that can dial 911 and cry help when they see blood. Directing an animal to be sneaky should be easy enough. Hell, even my mouse can fetch me toothpicks.
Toadkiller Dog wrote:
Ssssshhh... don't tell Paizo that my cat (and almost any) can open closed doors by jumping onto the handle.Because even an Int 8 Animal won't know how to open doors!
Didn't you read the blog... ts...
Even according to the failblog, that started bringing in feats and skills that act differently between whoever uses them (which is unsupported by the rules) as well as intelligence values, you could do that. And it is still an easy task to make an AC more intelligent than your group Fighter.
I think this has been discussed to death but the main point of the blog was to say that if the animal doesn't know what it is after increasing its int you still have to use handle animal. So if you tell it to smith a weapon for you it won't even know what that is.
Not to mention that there are no rules about this. It would be way complicated now anyway trying to put reason into the rules and rule who can open a door and who cannot. Can your Unicorn open a door? Can your Dragon? Can your Solar? Hard to tell. Who knows how they grew up and whether they know the concept of a door. Not to speak of weird Outsiders made up out of Planestuff that are rather otherworldly. Can they grasp that concept?
You are right.
But your Wildshape lasts really LONG even on lower levels. Just buy a barding and don it every time you wildshape. Nothing keeps you from it.
As soon as you can afford a Wild Armour do so. And make sure its a fullplate!
Wolves are long creatures and thus do not have reach. So its 10ft space but only 5ft reach.
See here for reference.
You might also want to consider an Allosuaurs.Both Tiger and Wolf only have 5ft reach. An Allosaurus has 10ft.
If you want a controller that uses Vital Strike use a Ankylosaurus. It has a Strength based Stun attack. Plus he has 10ft reach. Way better than the Wolf.
If you want a solid hitter with only one attack take a Tyrannosaurus. It gets powerful bite (so 2x str instead of 1.5x) and has a good 2d6 bite attack with grab.
If you insist on a tripper take a Stegosaurus. It has reach ;). Also it has 2d8 damage with its attack. If you take INA you end up with 3d8.
Reach is, especially for controllers with stun or trip, essential. You can just cover that much more area and get a lot more AoOs. Plus you can protect people by standing next to them or letting them ride on you.
EDIT: GAO GAO STEGOSAURUS!
Are you SURE?
Donning Metal Armour is a Chaotic and Evil act and doing this once makes you chaotic and evil and thus you are disqualified for using this character in PFS.