Charging party members for crafting items is directly comparable to charging party members for heal spells, buffs or even charging a party member to take a hit for them....
No it is not at all comparable. All the wizard's actions while adventuring are comparable to all the barbarian's or cleric's actions while adventuring.
{ If the wizard is not pulling his wieght while adventuring, that is a completely different topic. }
This is out side of the adventure on down time. Is your barbarian doing something for me during his down time that will double the value of my income? If so, then we can exchange that favor instead of the 10% fee. Perfectly fair. Expecting me to be your slave to double your wealth is not fair. THAT is totally jerk behavior.
I'll assume you have at least one co-worker that is good at math. Do you expect him to do all your tax filling, retirement planning, and insurance forms for free? Even if you expect it, does he agree to do it?
I have been in groups that take advantage of the spell casters like you describe. Casters are EXPECTED to take a bunch of item creation feats. Casters are EXPECTED to spend all their free time making magic for everyone else for free. When there was no other option, I played in some of those groups for awhile. I probably wouldn't play a spellcaster in such a group. I certainly wouldn't take any item creation feats in such a group. I don't play a fantasy game to be a factory slave for the rest of the group.
I think this is a can of worms you may not want to open. Friendship, "the social contract" is the most important aspect of any gaming group. We get together to have fun, and that is the end-all of it.
If we wanted to wade into it and really have something to fight over, then a cleric's time spent taking care of x or y is time not spent assisting at their church, or caring for the servants of their god's faith...assuming the PCs' faith doesn't match. From an IC perspective, this is a very real concern.
Pathfinder provides a cost for these: Caster level × spell level × 10 gp. This opens the gate to charging 60 percent of that value, or whichever percentage. That percentage may then be used to compensate the temple, with the cleric perhaps keeping a small amount for their own time invested (much as the visiting friend-mechanic), and the rest going towards the organization.
This opens the door to cost for other forms of ic-costs for spellcasting. Pathfinder at least gives us a formula for it, and PCs may offer discounts as their roleplay dictates.
I had a huge post but screw it.
Bottom line: You are not in the group to profit from individual party members. You do that by working together to kill monsters and steal their stuff. If you offer to craft items for the group but only at a personal profit than you are defeating that purpose and embezzling that business. Therefore, you're fired.
If the rest of the group is getting more loot than you than discuss it as a group, do not tax your group because of a misguided notion of never profiting.
If your character concept demands you charge the group then reconsider your concept. The lawyer wizard in my group didn't decide to start charging legal fees. My hermit druid didn't decide the spare scrolls he made for no other purpose than to keep the group alive needed to be compensated for (he'd just buy more tobbacco with it anyway). MY cleric of gorum does not demand a battle of dominance every time the party needs to come to a decision. And the pickpocketing rogue is not stealing all our crap.
If you are offered the money freely, that's fine.
If you plan on putting said money to the benefit of the group and explain that, that's fine.
If you do it for personal profit, that is not okay.
What does your DM think about you crafting and selling on the open market?
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oh yeah, maybe its a belt of con to make sure 2 fireballs won't roast you as a wizard. i understand that it could be anything, believe me, i'm an item creator.but it doesn't mean that making yourself better is always the best way to go for the effectiveness of the party and thus your survival. that fighter needs a magic sword really quick just in case there's a shadow. if you're a wizard and the only one who can harm it, then you'll die pretty quick.
that's just an easy low level example of things. I agree with you that you get to determine priorities, but that doesn't mean that making things for other people is bad for you. Treatmonk would agree that you giving them the tools to do the work for you is more god-like
Maybe instead of a belt of con, you're boosting your touch ac with defensive gear so the shadow isn't that much of a threat to you. Then you'll kill it pretty easily, and move on.
For every "The fighter might need this because" there's an opposite "The wizard might use this because" argument. They go back and forth. The difference? One directly helps the wizard, and indirectly helps the party. The other indirectly helps the party and does jack directly for the wizard.
oh yeah, maybe its a belt of con to make sure 2 fireballs won't roast you as a wizard. i understand that it could be anything, believe me, i'm an item creator.but it doesn't mean that making yourself better is always the best way to go for the effectiveness of the party and thus your survival. that fighter needs a magic sword really quick just in case there's a shadow. if you're a wizard and the only one who can harm it, then you'll die pretty quick.
that's just an easy low level example of things. I agree with you that you get to determine priorities, but that doesn't mean that making things for other people is bad for you. Treatmonk would agree that you giving them the tools to do the work for you is more god-like
Maybe instead of a belt of con, you're boosting your touch ac with defensive gear so the shadow isn't that much of a threat to you. Then you'll kill it pretty easily, and move on.
For every "The fighter might need this because" there's an opposite "The wizard might use this because" argument. They go back and forth. The difference? One directly helps the wizard, and indirectly helps the party. The other indirectly helps the party and does jack directly for the wizard.
You are again assuming that you have to craft something essential for yourself and you are interrupting this for something that a fighter might need because its all fancy and shiney.
What does your DM think about you crafting and selling on the open market?
There is no open market in our game. Items sold to the trading post are sold at half cost, making crafting said item useless for selling. However, in talking with the GM we decided on a magic item consignment shop where I would craft items as needed. It's up to the discretion of the GM. A certain percentage of profits will be going to kingdom building.
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You are again assuming that you have to craft something essential for yourself and you are interrupting this for something that a fighter might need because its all fancy and shiney.
Let me just point out that there is ALWAYS something useful to upgrade to, at least until you get into the very high levels.
It starts with a cloak of resistance +1. It might end with a tome of quickness of thought +5.
Well apart from some uneccesary caps yelling about how the feat is overpowered (which it is). The feat itself does not make the feat-taker overpowered outright. If he only crafted for himself I could see that, but he is crafting for the party, and his feat investment and time should be compensated.
Now, I explained earlier about uneven loot distribution, and if your party doesnt calculate out the cost of the entire loot pile and divide the spoils evenly by cost, a crafting wizard will get a smaller amount of loot as he doesn't need fancy armor, sheilds and weapons. One way to compensate for this is to craft for a cost.
I think it also depends on *which* crafting feat we're talking about. Potion, Scroll and Wand are hardly overpowered, Wondrous Items is excellent. I wouldn't say they're inherintly overpowered*, but can be imbalancing.
*** spoiler omitted **
Exactly on point (the second part).
Crafting of Wondrous Items and Arms & Armor are heavily overpowered in Pathfinder.
So the goal should be to balance them.
And being able to get money out of it is not even allowed by the RAW. And if we now add that to the heavily overpowered feats on top, which is basically what the original poster tries to do, it is exactly the different direction of what is supposed to happen to the feat.
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Crafting Wands is not much behind the other two. Consider that most groups almost exclusively heal via CLW Wands , the extreme proliferation of UMD and that its only a DC20 for Wands. So many characters can now easily buff themself with personal range spells which they should never have gotten their hands onto.
Perhaps things would be more agreeable if you have them repay you for your work in your casual time by doing things for you instead, this might go down much easier and they are more inclined to consider it a fair trade.
Consider dropping the charge for items that benefit the entire party more directly, like wands of curing and bags of holding
Otherwise do not volunteer crafting and be clear that crafting items for the party will be done eventually but you do have some personal items items to craft first. I'd consider the effective 45% discount fair enough, especially if it keeps you from doing other things you might want to do.
You are again assuming that you have to craft something essential for yourself and you are interrupting this for something that a fighter might need because its all fancy and shiney.
Let me just point out that there is ALWAYS something useful to upgrade to, at least until you get into the very high levels.
It starts with a cloak of resistance +1. It might end with a tome of quickness of thought +5.
Which assumes that you have infinite money. And that you fullfill the prerequirements and can make the check.
And still often a +1 on your AC (by upgrading it from +4 to +5) which takes you 4 Weeks (not the real number) to craft is highly inferior to crafting two items for other people which will get a +2 on their AC because they only have a +2 ring.
@Shalafi2412:
The gm just said to solve the issue between us, which i already did. (As i said before i accepted to do this for free in exange for the fact that the first church in the city will be a Abadar church)
@TarkXT :
I get your point and let's say that in general you are right; but:
1-It's not necessarly true, while i agree that using a pc cleary against the group from the start is just dumb this doesn't mean that every pg must be created solely for the group.
I had pcs fight between them for various reason, a greedy dwarf of one of my friends gifted us one of the funniest session ever, i still remember the day that a pc-rougue whit a specific "i do what i need and notthing else" policy was saved in such a spettacular way by the resident paladin that changed his behaviur totally and it was really fun for all of us.
So be aware that just because all of your characters ever question the good of the group for their perosnal belif this doesn't mean is the only way, and personally i think you are missing some fun.
2-This still don't solve the issue "i can make a standard wizard, still contributing to the party and have no problem" wich result in a economical loss for the others. It's not like every pg is a saint, a stupid saint i'll add. This way of thought is the whole reason that cause good = dumb / evil=clever concept in the mind of most players.
By this concept your boss could ask to work extra-hours for free since it benefit the companay and so you.
That said i'm on the web from long enough to know that when troll-like people (i really hope for you that you are a troll) like Alienfreak appear in a thread and someone start arguing with them is time to eject themself from a thread. :)
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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Yup, reading is fundamental.
"If time is dedicated to creation, it must be spent in uninterrupted 4-hour blocks.
Nothing in the preceeding contradicts this. So, even if you're 'crafting on the run' your wizard is spending 1 hour on spell prep, 8 hours on sleep, and 4 hours on crafting.
Again, for those who might not understand, hours = time.
Bonus points that alienfreak quoted that exact line but failed to comprehend.
So we're back to someone helping you with the big words and trying not to be a) rude and b) wrong.
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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You are again assuming that you have to craft something essential for yourself and you are interrupting this for something that a fighter might need because its all fancy and shiney.
Let me just point out that there is ALWAYS something useful to upgrade to, at least until you get into the very high levels.
It starts with a cloak of resistance +1. It might end with a tome of quickness of thought +5.
I'd add that if it's not items, it's spells, or companions. I've yet to find anything that can't be resolved w/o throwing gold at it.
I accept the argument that characters can individually profit in their downtime rather than profiting the party, so I'm okay with characters profiting from magic item crafting done in their down time.
This assumes, of course, that the GM is not adjusting wealth for player behavior. If the GM goes out of his way to keep everything according to strict WBL guidelines, then I don't see the point of taking crafting feats in the first place and would dislike any move by any player that increases personal wealth, therefore directly decreasing my character's wealth.
That's why my rule as GM has always been: WBL only determines dungeon treasure and quest rewards. Anything the players do beyond that to become more or less wealthy does not adjust what the treasure and quest rewards will be.
Spend all your cash on lavish luxury, so your equipment is subpar? Monsters don't spontaneously start dropping more loot to compensate.
Use some of your cash to make wise investments, putting you 20% over WBL? Monsters don't spontaneously start dropping less loot, either.
I accept the argument that characters can individually profit in their downtime rather than profiting the party, so I'm okay with characters profiting from magic item crafting done in their down time.
This assumes, of course, that the GM is not adjusting wealth for player behavior. If the GM goes out of his way to keep everything according to strict WBL guidelines, then I don't see the point of taking crafting feats in the first place and would dislike any move by any player that increases personal wealth, therefore directly decreasing my character's wealth.
That's why my rule as GM has always been: WBL only determines dungeon treasure and quest rewards. Anything the players do beyond that to become more or less wealthy does not adjust what the treasure and quest rewards will be.
Actually, if they go out of their way to maintain strict WBL, then crafting feats are great.
Unrelated to AvalonXQ's post...
I just take Hedge Magician and call it a day. I get my 5%, they get their 1/2 off items that somehow my character is obligated to make for them.
Do what we did, ban the feats for all crafting aside from consumables (scrolls, potions, and wands).
The feats just cause too many head aches (how does this affect WBL, fighting amongst the party for fees, its no fair that he gets double wealth for one feat, etc.). Trust the DM to balance it out (roughly).
Anyway, this is of now help to the OP, but I think others have already helped him.
Mist:
I believe that the profiteering crowd is not understanding the arguments.
I don't have any problem with someone taking a magic item crafting feat to profit from it.
But not by profiting from the other party members.
Make and sell all you want, but when you charge the party for it, you are adjusting the party loot to your benefit simply because you chose a non-combat feat.
As I have said repeatedly... If you want to play a profiteer who makes money from the players, then you better be prepared to be seen as a profit center for the other party members too.
In certain neutral and most evil parties, this is fine.
In a party that is supposed to be heroically good, this is not fine.
If you charge me for a magic sword, then don't be surprised when I ask for gold for a heal. You profit from providing what I need. I profit from providing what you need.
It's just that simple.
I'm guessing that the division of opinions here probably breaks down along lines of philosophy toward loot-splitting. I'd speculate that those who do a flat equal percentage of value per player (i.e. we found a +3 sword and 3,000gp, so we'll sell the sword and then divide the total gold equally) support the idea of compensating the caster, whereas those who approach things from a "utility distribution system" (i.e. in this dragon hoard we found a +3 sword and 3,000 gp, so the fighter gets the sword and the rest of us split the gold) think that compensation is unnecessary [I realize I'm simplifying the range of opinions here for arguments' sake]. This is, as I say, just speculation on my part, but I'd be interested to see how well it holds up (if at all).
While we're all doing wacky analogies, I'd actually compare an adventuring company to a small independent business, because while these people may be friends, they're also literally doing this stuff FOR A LIVING. So let's envision this scenario: There's a big meeting with a client coming up (dragon) and the pitch man (fighter) needs a set of fancy charts because the client likes graphics (dragonbane sword). He asks the secretary (wizard) to whip some up for him, though it means she has to stay late a couple of nights (crafting).
Possible results:
a) Secretary blows him off because she works 9-5 ONLY. As a result, they don't get the pitch and the company folds (TPK) or they don't get a very good rate and have to downsize (party loses a member)
b) Secretary helps out this one time, but lets the pitch man know that she wants to take some accounting classes at nights, so she'll need to leave work early a few days a week (personal crafting/other downtime stuff). Group gets the account, is flush with new cash (treasure), and the pitch man happily encourages this valued team member to expand her skillset (understands he probably won't get any new crafting done for a little bit).
It would be unfair for the pitchman to keep the secretary working late EVERY NIGHT, but it would also be inappropriate for her to be totally unwilling to ever go the extra mile for everyone's mutual benefit. As long as all parties are communicating respectfully, though, and genuinely interested in providing some kind of pat on the back (at the very least) there should be no need for the secretary to demand overtime whenever she works late (cuz she's on salary anyway).
To more directly address the OP's quandary, it seems like the main problem is that other players perceive what is intended as a roleplaying choice as a selfish action. Isn't Abadar all about serving the community and advancing civilization? Perhaps if the cleric in question made it clear that the extra 10% of funds was being donated to hire soldiers to protect local trade routes, or to sponsor festivals in the party's honor, or even to pay for items that benefit the ENTIRE group (cure wands, potions, scrolls), then they will be more comfortable with the idea.
This really seems like the crux of it - showing in a substantive way that the cleric isn't trying to be selfish, but is actually serving the tenets of his faith.
We don't charge extra for crafting in our group. We all work together and utilize our available resources for the benefit of the group.
Also, crafting does raise some wonky situations. For instance, the crafter would normally only be able to sell their wares for 50% of the purchase value. But if you're selling to PC's you can now sell for 60% of the purchase value? As a DM, if I had to, I would say the selling price to NPC's is the same as to PC's. Thankfully I don't have to with our group. Good luck!
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Here's an interesting fact.
If a LN crafter following Abadar wants to craft and sell goods, he can do so. He can sell crafted goods to NPCs all day long for 50% of book value. This is the absolute most money he can get out of an NPC.
Or he can sell them to his friends, associates, adventurers who risk life and limb for him regularly... and jack up his prices.
At that point the PCs should rightly see 'Hey, you're selling that sword to some mercenary who is likely to use it against me as for me for 1,000 gp? And when I ask to buy one just like it, you say 'Sure, that'll be 1,100 gold!' What exactly are you trying to pull here?'
Charging your friends more than the market will bear makes you a merchant, not a PC. If you want to sell goods for over 50% book value, you need to be an NPC.
It sounds like it is in character for your PC and there for fine if you are playing in character. Roll with it, if the other PCs don't like it that is their problem. This is a situtation when WBL and the magic shop on the corner become plan silly and is one reason why those two things are non existant in the game I run. Loot needs to be worked for, created somehow, or purchased in a back ally shady deal. In my game your fellow PCs would be asking what else they could do to help you make the stuff, or they might tell you to get bent. Either way role play.
SGH
The other players are metagaming. You are doing nothing wrong.
Point 1 to consider: Your time costs something. Crafting takes a fair investment of time and you should be compensated for this.
Point 2: You're a worshipper of Abadar, whose profile includes trade and merchants. Reasonable trade requires some gain for both parties. If you're operating at cost and spending time, you are gaining nothing and, in fact, losing something, which is an offense to your deity. Your party members are both gaining the item AND an increase in wealth relative to standard pricing.
Point 3: Any arguments about "well, I'll charge for healing/intercepting monsters/diplomacy" is nonsense. None of those things require feats (a limited commodity) and you're still contributing in relevant situations with your class skills/spells/actions.
My gaming group has an assumed trade setup. Either you trade crafting services with each other, negating the time cost, or you cough up additional cash. I've had other players pay me near market cost on items at their own behest to keep the money in the party.
My Witch has Craft Wonderous Item. The Magus has Craft Arms/Armor. We trade regularly. My mithril buckler and adamantine haramaki won't enchant themselves, after all. He, in return, gets at-cost rates from me on his Headband of Int and Belt of Dex, as well as any other item he requests from me. The Druid, who has both CWI and Craft Wand, gets a small price hike on his wands from the entire party (virtually everyone carries a CLW wand).
After all, it's only fair.
Without reading all 186 posts, I think that a playing group whose crafter charges only 10% should count itself lucky, and a cleric of Abadar who is charging only 10% is likely to run into trouble from his church seniors. One of my past characters was saving to build a golem and charged other PCs the full amount, another one happily made everything at cost as it was in character to do so.
Of course, having said that, every gaming table has a social contract and 'magic items at cost' may well be part of this. Similarly, some tables don't 'let' self serving characters purloin extra treasure that only they know about (and I've seen people go to great lengths to ensure that their character finds out that another character has stolen a few gems when they had no reason at all in character to be suspicious). I think it's a style which stems from a wargamerish 'players vs. gm' as opposed to a roleplayerish 'what would the character do'.
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Mist:
I believe that the profiteering crowd is not understanding the arguments.
I don't have any problem with someone taking a magic item crafting feat to profit from it.
But not by profiting from the other party members.
Make and sell all you want, but when you charge the party for it, you are adjusting the party loot to your benefit simply because you chose a non-combat feat.
As I have said repeatedly... If you want to play a profiteer who makes money from the players, then you better be prepared to be seen as a profit center for the other party members too.
In certain neutral and most evil parties, this is fine.
In a party that is supposed to be heroically good, this is not fine.
If you charge me for a magic sword, then don't be surprised when I ask for gold for a heal. You profit from providing what I need. I profit from providing what you need.
It's just that simple.
Even with evil parties that is not an argument. Even evil people have friends. Things they care for. And most important: common sense.
The system just gets horrible once everyone charges each other money. And the OUT OF COMBAT argument is really a strawman here.
Fighters are not meant to be useful out of combat: Hence 2+int skillpoints, no abilities
Bards and almost all full spellcasters are good out of combat.
So it means if you take a Fighter you suck because noone takes it because you can't make additional $$$$$ while all the other guys are ripping you off for each teleport, cure, using diplomacy out of encounters?
Especially considering the horrendous pricing of spellcasting compared to diplomacy being worth nothing at all because no wealth is generated and there are no tables for it?
I mean its OBVIOUS it was never meant to be like this and it gets all up to a clustershi... if you start it.
Its surely possible to do and balance. But this means A LOT of work for the DM to lay out his adventure so that the fighter is also useful out of combat (make him a noble the others need) and working out pricing tables which give every class about the same money.
I have posed a few questions to the free crafting crowd on a few subjects (including taking another feat and profiting off of that - poetry), and for the most part, they have bypassed those questions, leading me to believe that the answers would not have helped their case.
Actually, I for one had to zip off and only just made it back to my console. Funnily enough, I was giving a friend a lift to the doctors - and strangely, I didn't charge her for the favour. I generally don't charge my friends for helping them out because they are my friends. I know that if the situation were reversed they'd help me out, and in the past they have.
Back on subject:
My argument was that if players take feats and abilities that can help the party, they are generally expected to do so without milking the people who gave of their time and energy to the success of the team for free. Of course if the party have a system worked out where the fighter gets paid per kill, the rogue per trap sprung, the cleric per heal etc. that's all well and good.
It may be a bit metagamey, but the basic argument remains that the player who has invested in crafting feats hasn't invested in feats that save his backside, or take down foes, or otherwise contribute during adventures. As a result, everyone else is going to have to work a bit harder. Compensation is that he can make sure they have cheaper/more bespoke gear to go adventuring with. It's in his own interest to do so, so why would he charge more than cost? It's the way I have always worked crafting characters.
So far I haven't seen anything put up by anyone to convince me this isn't the best way, although I have been amazed at how mercenary some people are in their lives.
Even with evil parties that is not an argument. Even evil people have friends. Things they care for. And most important: common sense.The system just gets horrible once everyone charges each other money. And the OUT OF COMBAT argument is really a strawman here.
Fighters are not meant to be useful out of combat: Hence 2+int skillpoints, no abilities
Bards and almost all full spellcasters are good out of combat.So it means if you take a Fighter you suck because noone takes it because you can't make additional $$$$$ while all the other guys are ripping you off for each teleport, cure, using diplomacy out of encounters?
Especially considering the horrendous pricing of spellcasting compared to diplomacy being worth nothing at all because no wealth is generated and there are no tables for it?I mean its OBVIOUS it was never meant to be like this and it gets all up to a clustershi... if you start it.
Its surely possible to do and balance. But this means A LOT of work for the DM to lay out his adventure so that the fighter is also useful out of combat (make him a noble...
Alien, I'm not saying it's a good idea even for evil or neutral parties, I'm just saying that it's defensible. But as I have said, in an evil party don't be surprised by the reaction you get (including the party thief stealing your profits while you sleep).
I personally have never played any character that profited by selling goods or services to party members.
The whole concept disgusts me. It's like a baseball player charging another player to use their bat if the first player's bat breaks. It's just pathetic greedmongering.