Buying from the party crafter is a terrible idea if you follow WBL and SKR's FAQ since any items the non crafters buy will still be valued at their full price. All that occurs is a redistribution of the parties total wealth with the crafter receiving a greater share (assuming all wealth is initially split evenly among the party.) If the non crafter can find the item they want from an NPC they can get the item immediately without impacting future gains in wealth. The crafter retains their free time for making their own items as well if they don't create anything for the party and they don't run the risk of moving themselves outside the WBL guidelines.
If you don't follow the WBL guidelines or treat the crafters items as being worth the production cost or the amount charged the other players then it's a benefit to the party. However the option to sell the items for anything other than half regular value depends on the parties cooperation or the GM's approval.
So if someone can increase their own WBL by getting the crafter to make them items even if they do charge more than they can an NPC why would anyone be upset? Because the crafter is only able to charge the party this increased cost, essentially the party becomes a resource for the crafter. The attitude that the other party members don't deserve to reap the rewards of the crafters abilities without giving up a share of their loot gives the impression that the crafter is superior or more valuable than the other members.
As to having knowledge of an items value the appraise skill can give you the price of common items and tell you if the item is magical. The skill doesn't call out what a common item is so the skill may or may not be able to tell you a magic items value. You might have to actually be able to craft the item to know its value. As it stands how much your everyday adventurer knows about the value of items is either extremely limited or extremely vague it would seem.
My phone's freaking out, sorry about that. I find the tax completely reasonable. Having played a crafting wizard on more than one occasion, you are sacrificing your feats to help the group. The least they can do is pay you for the service. Plus with the costs of spell components later on, you'll need all the coin you can get. I've personally never charged, but I plan on tipping my crafting wizard in this campaign quite well.
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again, why does anyone in the group need more money than someone else unless the group mind is a selfish one and treasure isn't being equally shared?
We had a member of our group who would take the trinkets we found and leave them in their chalice/gold necklace/etc. state as opposed to trading them in for gold, but we still all got equal shares. He was an eccentric dwarf bent on making his own treasure hoard. But he still only took his proportional share.
If you are Crafty McCraftenstein for the group, are you limiting your services to only their items and paying full price for yours from the shops? If so a) thats ridiculous and b) then that would be the only way I could see asking for more than a proportional amount of loot from quests/dungeons, etc.
If you took the Craft feats solely to help you, then why extend assistance to the group? If you got them for team player, then why charge them?
If gear is the issue, just request you get priority choice over boss drops since you can make the stuff for the party and don't always have access to the items you need.
If you just want more money for the sake of having it, I just don't get it.
The group might very well lose its crafter. Thats the choice of the group. If they say "no fee, period" its presumably with the knowledge that it might cost them the crafter who is making the issue.
That doesn't make me a liar.
Breezing over the fact that your side is the one killing the golden goose makes you responsible for blatant misrepresentation at the very minimum, especially in the context of the rest of your previous post where you seemed to adopt a position of moral equivalency of the two positions.
Second:
If some *one* doesn't like it: this isn't what I said.
I said the group.
The group makes these decisions not any one person. Whoever can't get along with the group, stops being invited to the group.
*for either side*. Dude who can't get along with the "no fee" crowd is just as wrong as the guy who can't get along with the "X% fee" crowd.
Absolutely not! You're the guys running someone else out of the group for your own selfishness. Simplest possible example:
I'm a mage, who happily works with a group.
I take a crafting feat.
Fighter finds out I have a crafting feat.
Fighter DEMANDS I CRAFT FOR HIM AT COST.
I say no.
Group kicks me out, my one crime being not willing to craft for him at cost.
How on earth is this MY fault? There is no moral equivalency here! There are not simply two different equally substantiated opinions about what is right and proper in this case. You are greedy, selfish, and wrong, to force other people to perform tasks for you that they don't want to perform.
If the group was a business, and the crafter was on your payroll, and you were his boss, then he would be obligated to do what you say or be fired. Groups are not businesses, they are volunteer organizations made of peers. When you join the Garden Club, and you find out a peer knows how to plant tulips, do you DEMAND THEY PLANT TULIPS IN YOUR YARD FOR NO RECOMPENSE? Here's a hint: If you do so, they will quit the garden club, and you still don't get your tulips.
You are still trying to turn it into an argument of 1 character vs 1 character when it isn't.
Its an issue of whether or not one character gets to dictate to the group.
They don't.
No, its an issue of whether the group gets to dictate to one character.
aka "Communism."
And communism kills the golden goose, as you've repeatedly demonstrated by preferring to kick a crafter out for charging a copper piece for his time. Like this:
They can't /make/ you craft. They can decide to leave your character behind in the tavern and go on without them.
Yes they can, because they have free will. And it would be their fault that they no longer have a crafter, not the crafter's fault. Simply because you "can" do something, does not mean it's right to do it. Free will is not a justification for immoral behavior. There is no moral equivalency like you claim. They could have just as easily let the guy tag along and only craft for himself, and they would have been no worse off. But because they saw a way to personally benefit from others, their greed caused them to leave the guy in the tavern.
If your group is an evil group, or a CN group, and they were trying to extort the crafter into giving them free stuff, then the action makes sense. And if the crafter called their bluff and left the group then that's simply the consequences of the group's actions. That's all fine, and falls under the category of free will being exercised by evil and/or selfish characters. But don't pretend that it's "good" or "right" or "just."
If I were GMing, and leaving the crafter in the tavern would also put him in any sort of danger, I'd strip a Paladin of his abilities and make him Atone for the act, because it's clearly selfish and harmful to others. If leaving him in the tavern wasn't dangerous to him, I'd still put the Paladin on notice.
(how's that for egging things on to 2k?)
Resolve:
You have 4 LG people in the group. The new guy comes in and makes a CE psychopath.
You ask him to make something else. He refuses, saying he has the right to play any ole character he wants to.Do your LG people hang out with the evil guy, one htey find out he's evil?
Do they try to kill him?
leave him behind?
talk to the Player about it some more?
You as the GM absolutely don't "talk to the Player about it some more." That's crap. The player has the right to play whatever he wants to play, and the other players have the right to react however they want to react, within their alignment.
In my games, if the guy detects as evil, the rest of the LGs will watch him like a hawk. If the LGs are Paladins of an overbearing God (and why not, most paladins are) they'll probably PK the guy the first time he commits an evil act. And that's fine.
My issue with you and your ilk is you're pretending that your own selfishness is right or just. Crafted items at cost are free loot. If you want to be nice and ask other players to give you free loot, then that's a good act. If they turn you down, then the good act is to say "Ok! No problem."
If you are selfish and extort other players to use their feats to give you free loot, then that is not a good act. If they turn you down, then kicking them out of the party is an even worse act.
If your group is CN or E, the latter scenario flies. If your group is LG.. It. Absolutely. Does. Not.
Why? No correcting need be done. It's a FAQ on the WBL of items crafted by a PC, not by and for the same PC. I see nothing in the FAQ stating that the ruling is not valid if the crafted item is for another party member.
It seems to generally assume that most crafting is done for the crafter (probably a safe assumption as Scribe Scroll is the most ubiquitous crafting feat), but I don't get where you are seeing that it mandates the crafter monitor his other party members to maintain their WBL by redistributing their crafting gps to himself. That seems really a stretch. You're breaking WBL objectively in one direction (the crafter will end up with higher WBL than he should, even accounting for self-crafting, because of the fees) in order to avoid theoretically breaking it in another (the other PC would theoretically end up with higher WBL due to a crafted item) - except the other PC wouldn't, as crafted items are counted at half cost. So you're breaking it to end up with the crafted-for PC below WBL and the crafter above - wrong in both directions.
Just to be sure that we are talking about the same SKR ruling:
PC Wealth By Level (page 399): If a PC has an item crafting feat, does a crafted item count as its Price or its Cost?
1. It counts as the item's Cost, not the Price. This comes into play in two ways.
If you're equipping a higher-level PC, you have to count crafted items at their Cost. Otherwise the character isn't getting any benefit for having the feat. Of course, the GM is free to set limits in equipping the character, such as "no more than 40% of your wealth can be used for armor" (instead of the "balanced approach" described on page 400 where the PC should spend no more than 25% on armor).
If you're looking at the party's overall wealth by level, you have to count crafted items at their Cost. Otherwise, if you counted crafted items at their Price, the crafting character would look like she had more wealth than appropriate for her level, and the GM would have to to bring this closer to the target gear value by reducing future treasure for that character, which means eventually that character has the same gear value as a non-crafting character--in effect neutralizing any advantage of having that feat at all.
Please take a look at what I bolded. SKR, to me at least, is saying that only for the crafting character does the items they crafted count at cost rather than the retail price.
If you are reading that differently, please indicate what is leading you to that conclusion and explain how the bolded sections are affected.
Last question (well, for this post :)), what is the point of taking crafting feats for the crafter?
How is me using my craft feat only for me supposed to hurt others?It doesn't hurt them any more than casting my haste spell only on myself hurts them. However, it may well piss them off, much like casting my haste spell only on myself may well piss them off (even though it's my spell, not theirs).
Charging to include them in the spell (even if you only charge 10%) is also something that may piss them off.
I have an objection to comparing while adventuring activities and downtime activities. The crafter fulfills their party role while adventuring as should all the other party members.
So, are you saying that a crafter has no choice but to craft for free for the rest of the party during downtime? Or the party may not include them in spells cast while adventuring?
again, why does anyone in the group need more money than someone else unless the group mind is a selfish one and treasure isn't being equally shared?
So why do the non-crafters need more gold than the crafter, unless they are being selfish?
A big part of the argument has been compensating the crafter for their downtime crafting of items. Why should the rest of the party be able to goof off but the crafter has to stay at the shop turning out magic items for the group?
Is it because the rest of the group are selfish and want more valuable loot?
You as the GM absolutely don't "talk to the Player about it some more." That's crap.Resolve:
You have 4 LG people in the group. The new guy comes in and makes a CE psychopath.
You ask him to make something else. He refuses, saying he has the right to play any ole character he wants to.
Uhm, no. The player doesn't have any frakkin' "rights" in context of the game other than what the players give him. They can choose to boot a player with a bad attitude. There's no UN dictate stating you have the right to play in my game.
Anyone comes in and makes a CE psychopath in my games, and refuses to change, I tell him to find another game.
No player has any right to disrupt the game and break the social contract that a gaming group has. The only right they have is to leave the game if they don't like it.
You as the GM absolutely don't "talk to the Player about it some more." That's crap.Resolve:
You have 4 LG people in the group. The new guy comes in and makes a CE psychopath.
You ask him to make something else. He refuses, saying he has the right to play any ole character he wants to.Uhm, no. The player doesn't have any frakkin' "rights" in context of the game other than what the players give him. They can choose to boot a player with a bad attitude. There's no UN dictate stating you have the right to play in my game.
Anyone comes in and makes a CE psychopath in my games, and refuses to change, I tell him to find another game.
No player has any right to disrupt the game and break the social contract that a gaming group has. The only right they have is to leave the game if they don't like it.
As I stated earlier, I have no objection to high-level requirement of alignment, but I do for several of the other things suggested in this thread. The social contract is usually unwritten (I have never seen one) and subject to sudden change.
Do you believe that the group can decide to force the crafter to craft at cost for the group?
If the crafter only crafted for themselves and the rest of their downtime was spent on spell research or such, would they be tossed from the group?
I have an objection to comparing while adventuring activities and downtime activities. The crafter fulfills their party role while adventuring as should all the other party members.
So, are you saying that a crafter has no choice but to craft for free for the rest of the party during downtime? Or the party may not include them in spells cast while adventuring?
I think there are two different situations. First of, you can craft while adventuring - so it's really more relevant to talk about "in high action" and "out of high action" (i first wrote combat but a chase scene or searching for traps is as relevant).
Out of the high actions, there are two different scenarios - you have private downtime, and you are doing things that benefit the group. Crafting is one of those. Being in high action is also a group activity. I'll list some private/group activities here for reference:
Private activities:
Traveling to see your family for the fun of it
Hangin' out at the tavern for hot boys and drink
Decorating your personal lodge
Going on a pilgrimage
Researching your personal nemesis
Group activities
Traveling to a foreign power to get necessary papers for your party to adventure there
Raising funds from the merchant guild
Designing and leading the foundation of your party's stronghold
Crafting magical items for the party
Researching the BBEG
Adventuring
Taking watch when out adventuring
Now, if the rest of the party is doing group activities, and the crafter says "pay me or I won't help you", he's requiring payment to do group activities and it's just fair that the other players do that of him too - saying he doesn't get part of the funds raised, denying him info on the BBEG, fixing papers for everyone but him unless he pays. And yes, it might also apply to adventuring. It leads to a bad game with very individualistic characters where they don't feel like a group.
Now, on the other hand, if the others are doing private activities, assuming the crafter will be crafting for them for free is rude. He probably also has private stuff he wants to do. If they do ask him to craft something on his private time, it's akin to the fighter in the tavern asking the rogue to go dig up some info on the BBEG while the fighter stays drinking. It might be okay but the rogue has every reason to say "hey, I wanna drink too, I don't want to do that while you're here you lazy ass".
That is my stance, and from what I understand, many others as well. I think the disconnect here is because others see everything out of high action as private downtime, and feel it's unfair to force the wizard to craft a sword for the fighter while he's at the tavern. I too think that, just like I think it's unfair of the fighter to ask to be paid everytime he takes the night watch.
If the crafter only crafted for themselves and the rest of their downtime was spent on spell research or such, would they be tossed from the group?
I can't speak for the whole group, but I see no issues with that. I wouldn't toss someone from the group regardless of how they chose to craft. This was in the context of a player demanding to play CE in a LG game where that wasn't appreciated and claiming he had some "right" to play what he wants.
At least in my group, it's very rare to boot someone and they really have to have a bad, non-compromising attitude.
Now, if the rest of the party is doing group activities, and the crafter says "pay me or I won't help you", he's requiring payment to do group activities and it's just fair that the other players do that of him too - saying he doesn't get part of the funds raised, denying him info on the BBEG, fixing papers for everyone but him unless he pays. And yes, it might also apply to adventuring. It leads to a bad game with very individualistic characters where they don't feel like a group.
Now, on the other hand, if the others are doing private activities, assuming the crafter will be crafting for them for free is rude. He probably also has private stuff he wants to do. If they do ask him to craft something on his private time, it's akin to the fighter in the tavern asking the rogue to go dig up some info on the BBEG while the fighter stays drinking. It might be okay but the rogue has every reason to say "hey, I wanna drink too, I don't want to do that while you're here you lazy ass".
That is my stance, and from what I understand, many others as well. I think the disconnect here is because others see everything out of high action as private downtime, and feel it's unfair to force the wizard to craft a sword for the fighter while he's at the tavern. I too think that, just like I think it's unfair of the fighter to ask to be paid everytime he takes the night watch
Then we are of the same mind.
I still like to reserve the right to charge for items if the item is for someone my PC has a rivalry with. :)
Well of course, and sometimes being rude is in line with your character without disturbing the group dynamics. It's okay to be rude to the other players sometimes - you just have to assume they might be rude back at you (such as the rival requiring payment from you to take the night shift). As long as you as the players can keep it civil and as long as the group is having fun, no issues!
To respond to several posts at once:
I think everyone would agree that the group has to have some mechanism to enforce their collective will.
If you have a predominantly good group, and one neutral'ish guy goes on a killing spree- they should be able to take care of that IC. They sit and talk with the guy (IC) they try to work it out (IC) and if the guy refuses to cooperate they can move on to talking to the guy (OOC) about it. but eventually they are left with:
Be a good group with a murderer in their midst.
Stop being a good group.
Do something about the soon-to-be evil guy in their midst.
Now whether the crafter charging x% rises to that is a matter of opinion. To me- it does- because its very telling of the character's overall attitude to the group. They are a selfish person looking out for themselves first, second, third, and fourth. They are also not willing to go along with the decisions of the group. If a discussion comes, that person can be expected to give their opinion and act on it even if the group comes to a different decision.
When yuo are talking about coming into a group where you are potentially going into the bowels of the earthw atching each other's back and literally trusting each member to keep watch and not slit your throat- are you going to trust the guy who is out for himself? And who is going to blatantly ignore the decisions of the group?
Maybe you will. Myself, I think that would be pure metagaming because you like Bob and would hate to do something about it.
And being real world friends with the guy may even factor into it- but at some point the group *has* to be able to enforce its wishes on the group.
Otherwise the group's alignment and decisions rest on the most disruptive and out of line player to determine.
"we 4 want to play good characters"
"I am playing an evil character"
"oh.. well, i guess we have to be neutral or evil then".
It just shouldn't work that way.
(obvisouly there can and should be discussion about it- but no one person should be able to dictate terms to the group).
You are midway into a dungeon and you find a locked door. The rogue decides to charge the party 50 gold to open the door.
the group confers and says its unacceptable- that ther ogue is already being paid to unlock doors (and chests, and check for and disarm traps and such) and asks him to unlock the door.
He tells them that he respects their wishes but won't open anymore doors for them. He'll only use those skills for himself from now on.
Is the party being a jerk? is the rogue being a jerk?
Can the group replace him? "well guys this rogue isn't working out.. lets go find ourselves another"
Individual people don't get to dictate the terms to the party.
There are *tons* of individual freedoms in the game. You can choose your character and how you want to build them. But there are some freedoms that you don't have. You are expected to make and build a character who will fit into the group. Thematically, mechanically, and personality wise.
If you go into the group with the mentality that you get to do what you want regardless of what they say or want- you have to couple that with the expectation that its going to ruffle feathers and just might have some negative in-game consequences.
And if the player is -always- causing problems with every character he makes then the player might need to expect to not necessarily be invited next time.
Its not about who is right/wrong or which way is good/right/fun. Its about being with the group and working with the group- whichever decision they come to.
-S
It's not my job to use my Cavalier's Expert Trainer class ability to train our party's horses for combat. But I do it anyway, and I don't charge a fee, even though according to the Bestiary, in order to train certain animals you have to hire an animal trainer.Err, good for you?
And what if the group, by a majority vote, forces you to train the horses for free, even though you have something better to do?
Most players don't even USE their down time to do anything productive. Notice though, that you are suddenly conflating "charging for training" and "force him to train"
I could easily say "I'll charge you for any training you want" (and that would be a dick move) but they can't 'vote' to MAKE me train their horses.
I COULD charge the party, if I was interested in trying to weasel gold out of themWell then, that would be a greedy jerk move. But note that the crafter isn't interested in weaseling gold out of teammates. He's doing them a very good service. He's not forcing them to bu from him. That's their decision.
He would be doing a good service if he wasn't interested in making a profit on them. You act like just because the players are getting items at 40% off that it some how excuses that the crafter is using the rules to make his adventuring buddies his gold farm.
I'm not making money off of my adventuring buddies.
Yes. YOU ARE. What do you call that 10% fee? That is you asking for money that you get to POCKET.
I'm making them a bargain.
No, you're not. The rules are giving YOU a bargain. Will they save gold? Yes. But because only YOU get to artificially sell below the prices of shops, you have created a monopoly on selling magic items.
No, they're not. They're trying to stay at their approximate WBL if you want a metagame reason.
Just the opposite in fact. They're trying to unbalance their WBL by getting extra gold for the items they craft. Thereby making them richer than the rest of the party, since they craft items at 1/2 price but everyone else is getting theirs at 1/2+1/2X.1
Or they're just charging for their precious time and commissioned work. Just like artists on DeviantArt.
If this were real life, shop owners could lower their prices to compete with you. Or, the town trade guild would have fined/jailed for trying to wreck their local economy. But by RAW they can't, ergo you take advantage of the rules to acquire extra gold.
By RAW they can haggle and bring the price up. Also the 50% is for random items that you looted from your enemies. If the crafter is making a commissioned item for an NPC then he's fully entitled for an extra for his trouble, because it cost him his time that he could spent better, for example relaxing at a tavern or crafting for himself or something.
No. You can't. The rules specifically state that you sell items at 1/2 their cost, including player created items. It is very specific. Technically, charging more for 50% of items is against the rules, even for players. But because the PC have actual players behind them, the crafter can metagame negotiate for higher prices beyond what they can by RAW sell at.
You as the GM absolutely don't "talk to the Player about it some more." That's crap.Resolve:
You have 4 LG people in the group. The new guy comes in and makes a CE psychopath.
You ask him to make something else. He refuses, saying he has the right to play any ole character he wants to.Uhm, no. The player doesn't have any frakkin' "rights" in context of the game other than what the players give him. They can choose to boot a player with a bad attitude. There's no UN dictate stating you have the right to play in my game.
Anyone comes in and makes a CE psychopath in my games, and refuses to change, I tell him to find another game.
No player has any right to disrupt the game and break the social contract that a gaming group has. The only right they have is to leave the game if they don't like it.
You're mixing in-game and out-of-game disruption. Good role players can differentiate between a character who creates trouble (and therefore begets a response from other characters) and a player who is disruptive, and begets a response from the gaming group. Disruptive characters make the game interesting. Disruptive players make the game lame. If a character is disruptive, the other PCs kill him or boot him out of the party, and the player rolls a new character. If a player is disruptive, the GM boots him from the game and he ceases to play.
If you "CRAFT THINGS FOR ME FOR FREE" guys seriously think a player is being disruptive for not obeying your commands on how to build his character and what to do with his downtime, I don't know what to say other than stay the hell away from any game I play in or run. I don't need that kind of brazen immaturity anywhere near my gaming sessions. That's so childish it borders on infantile.
Look, here's the deal.
Those of you profiteers who say they are giving the party a "bargain" by charging 10% are completely and conveniently ignoring that you would be giving the party a BETTER BARGAIN by not charging a fee.
So stop even pretending that "bargain for the party" is a goal. If that were true you'd never charge ANY "interest" for "your time".
All of the tens of thousands of words of this thread defending that 10 or 20% fee is just that, rationilazation of your desire to make more gold than your party members, and using crafting as the tool to do so. It's all about the gold. Because if it was about providing the group a bargain, you wouldn't charge them a fee for the "privilege."
And those of you who want to argue that a crafter ends up at a lower WBL number because of SKR's idiotic "ruling" that crafter's WBL calculation is 1/2 price for things they craft for themselves are simply trying to have your cake and eat it too. You get exactly the same armor as your partner, but because ON YOU it is 1/2 cost, you get to whine about being "cheated" on WBL calculations.
Rationalize all you like. If it was about the bargain, you'd just provide the bargain. The very fact that you charge a fee at all is all the proof needed that it's about the gold.
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To respond to several posts at once:
I think everyone would agree that the group has to have some mechanism to enforce their collective will.
In the Army, this mechanism is called "Chain of Command." In businesses, this mechanism is called "HR." In most groups, this mechanism is called "Consensus."
If you have a predominantly good group, and one neutral'ish guy goes on a killing spree- they should be able to take care of that IC. They sit and talk with the guy (IC) they try to work it out (IC) and if the guy refuses to cooperate they can move on to talking to the guy (OOC) about it.
There's nothing to talk about OOC. This situation is and always should be entirely handled in play.
but eventually they are left with:
Be a good group with a murderer in their midst.
Stop being a good group.
Do something about the soon-to-be evil guy in their midst.
Those are all reasonable conclusions for the group to draw In Character, and if I'm GMing, I don't hold anything against a good group for dealing with the issue in any way they see fit. In fact, if it's a Paladin-like party, I probably have the biggest problem with them allowing the murderer to remain "in their midst" unless they have a very compelling "greater good" reason to do so.
Now whether the crafter charging x% rises to that is a matter of opinion.
Rises to the LEVEL OF MULTIPLE HOMICIDE?!??!! Wow!
I posit to you that any character who equates a mere 40% discount instead of the full 50% discount with MULTIPLE HOMICIDE is himself definitively insane, and the good group should think seriously about putting him in the dirt before he goes loopy and starts murdering tax collectors and coin exchangers.
To me- it does- because its very telling of the character's overall attitude to the group. They are a selfish person looking out for themselves first, second, third, and fourth.
No no no, that's you, the player, having an opinion of the attitude of the other player. That's the whole problem. That's everything this thread's about. You the player is mad that Jim the Other Player has just made some money.
Oh, your a crafter?
Well, then you must submit to the group peer pressure, er I mean moral superiority and craft anything we want. For free.
Or you are evil and we won't accept you.
They are also not willing to go along with the decisions of the group. If a discussion comes, that person can be expected to give their opinion and act on it even if the group comes to a different decision.
In the Army, sure. In business, sure. But you have a serious misunderstanding with how "consensus" works. When a group of people come to a consensus, that means they all agree on how to do something in the end.
Otherwise the group's alignment and decisions rest on the most disruptive and out of line player to determine.
"we 4 want to play good characters"
"I am playing an evil character"
"oh.. well, i guess we have to be neutral or evil then".
OR
"Oh, well we could very well end up killing you, hope you're cool with that.""Yeah that's cool, well go get a beer afterward."
That's what mature players do.
You are midway into a dungeon and you find a locked door. The rogue decides to charge the party 50 gold to open the door.
the group confers and says its unacceptable- that ther ogue is already being paid to unlock doors (and chests, and check for and disarm traps and such) and asks him to unlock the door.
He tells them that he respects their wishes but won't open anymore doors for them. He'll only use those skills for himself from now on.
This red herring was dispelled by post 50. If the rogue decides to not open the door then the PARTY CAN'T ADVANCE. If your warrior doesn't get his +1 axe then he STILL GETS TO CHOP THINGS. He can, in fact, even go to the store and buy an identical axe!
Individual people don't get to dictate the terms to the party.
There are *tons* of individual freedoms in the game. You can choose your character and how you want to build them. But there are some freedoms that you don't have. You are expected to make and build a character who will fit into the group. Thematically, mechanically, and personality wise.
No gaming group in my entire life has ever told me what class to play and what role to fill. Ever. To do so would be loony.
If you can make me take crafting feats and spend them on you, then I can make you take crafting skills and spend them on me, Mr. Warrior. I demand your Craft Armorsmithing skill stays pegged, despite the fact that you'd rather have Acrobatics, and you spend your downtime banging pig iron into swords. What's fair is fair.
Its not about who is right/wrong or which way is good/right/fun. Its about being with the group and working with the group- whichever decision they come to.
I think it's funny how you move the goalposts every single post you make. First it's about the profit, then it's about the WBL tables, then it's about playing your alignment, then it's no longer about playing your alignment but rather it's about doing what the rest of the group tells you to do out of play because otherwise they won't let you play in the group.
Your character extorting other characters into giving you free stuff is totally legal and reasonable in the game, for a N/CN/E party. If you're doing that in a good party then you're breaking the very rules of the game, and the GM should react accordingly, by striking your Paladin Powers, changing your alignment on your sheet until you Atone, and possibly having your god forsake you.
Defaulting to extorting other players into giving your character free stuff because your character is good and wouldn't do so, which is where you've now ended up with your perpetual goalpost moving, just makes you, the player, someone who's no fun to game with. I would use much harsher language if it was permitted by forum rules.
Look, here's the deal.
Those of you profiteers who say they are giving the party a "bargain" by charging 10% are completely and conveniently ignoring that you would be giving the party a BETTER BARGAIN by not charging a fee.
So stop even pretending that "bargain for the party" is a goal. If that were true you'd never charge ANY "interest" for "your time".
All of the tens of thousands of words of this thread defending that 10 or 20% fee is just that, rationilazation of your desire to make more gold than your party members, and using crafting as the tool to do so. It's all about the gold. Because if it was about providing the group a bargain, you wouldn't charge them a fee for the "privilege."
And those of you who want to argue that a crafter ends up at a lower WBL number because of SKR's idiotic "ruling" that crafter's WBL calculation is 1/2 price for things they craft for themselves are simply trying to have your cake and eat it too. You get exactly the same armor as your partner, but because ON YOU it is 1/2 cost, you get to whine about being "cheated" on WBL calculations.
Rationalize all you like. If it was about the bargain, you'd just provide the bargain. The very fact that you charge a fee at all is all the proof needed that it's about the gold.
I notice that you are still avoiding answering my question about crafters only crafting for themselves and reseaching spells.
Telling and insulting the fee crafting crowd that they are rationalizing things without providing any proof is a weak argument, and appears to more like someone trying to yell louder than the others. Then you go on to dismiss RAW, saying that it is idiotic - well, idiotic or not, it is RAW, regardless of your preferences. Disregarding it your home game is fine, but is is houserule, and house rules carry a lot less weight in discussion on the forums.
Just the opposite in fact. They're trying to unbalance their WBL by getting extra gold for the items they craft. Thereby making them richer than the rest of the party, since they craft items at 1/2 price but everyone else is getting theirs at 1/2+1/2X.1
Have you taken a look at the math posted a few pages back? To save you the trouble of looking for it, here is is again:
SKR’s clarification states that for calculations of Wealth By Level (WBL), the totals for crafter’s crafted items is based on the crafting price, not the base cost. Everyone else has their WBL calculated using the base cost.
1. This does not mean that the crafter get’s double loot/gold/drops/etc..
This does have a major impact on WBL calculations.
10th level party of 4
WBL 62,000 gp
No crafter party
4 characters have a WBL of 62,000 gp
Free crafter party
3 characters have a WBL of 124,000 gp
crafter has a WBL of 62,000 gp
GM either has to add a lot more items for the crafter, or may simply drop the loot for everyone and the crafter falls farther and farther behind.
Fee crafter party 10% fee
3 characters pay the crafter 6,200 gp, leaving them 55,800 gp, which turns into WBL of 111, 600
crafter has 62,000+3*6200= a WBL of 80,600
Fee crafter party 20% fee
3 characters pay the crafter 12,400 gp, leaving them 49,600 gp, which turns into WBL of 99,200
crafter has 62,000+3*12,400 = a WBL of 99,200 gp
So, to me, this means that the easiest way to keep WBL in balance, without the GM having to do anything, is for all crafters to charge a 20% fee. The GM does not have to change drops, create special drops, talk to the group to explain why the crafter is suddenly getting a bonus of xxx gold, etc..
Please take a look at the math, and tell me if there are any major errors in it. With the exception of Gauss, who provided a more robust math formula, no one has mentioned any errors in the above. Can you find any?
To my, it would appear that if the non-crafters don't chip in a fee, they are the ones taking more than their fair share of the loot, of taking advantage of their team mates.
@Gauss, I know, I know, but I don't like to post things that I don't understand and still haven't made the time to wrap my mind around your formula
No. You can't. The rules specifically state that you sell items at 1/2 their cost, including player created items. It is very specific. Technically, charging more for 50% of items is against the rules, even for players. But because the PC have actual players behind them, the crafter can metagame negotiate for higher prices beyond what they can by RAW sell at.
In general, a character can sell something for half its listed price, including weapons, armor, gear, and magic items. This also includes character-created items.
Could you please explain why the words "in general" are included in this phrase?
I am aware that the next paragraph goes on to talk about the exception to the rule being trade goods, but again, why did the add in "in general" to the preceeding paragraph - it wasn't needed if their intention was to only ever allow goods to be sold for half price.
You may also want to note that trade goods are not the only exception to the rule, there is the rule about the town being able to afford to buy the item at half price - i.e. you can't sell a 30 000 gp item in a small town with a gold piece limit of 500 gp. To me, this re-inforces that the words "in general" were put in place for a reason.
And for 10 bonus points AD, reply to this without using the word Profiteer! Coz i'm not sure it means what you think it means... I just looked it up on wikipedia, and it doesn't match what you are describing at all...
That has been pointed out a few times, but has been blithly ignored by a few on the free crafter side.
In general, a character can sell something for half its listed price, including weapons, armor, gear, and magic items. This also includes character-created items.Could you please explain why the words "in general" are included in this phrase?
My interpretation is that the text was meant for the GM to use their best judgement in setting their in-game economy. Our GM has adjudicated that the return on selling items depends on a diplomacy check made by the PCs, provided that the community in question can support the expenditure.
If you are playing in a highly abstracted game (strict enforcement of selling and purchasing prices for items, strict enforcement of WBL averaged over party members, non-adventuring time has no meaning) then any crafting fee leads to a monetary imbalance in favor of the crafter.
In practice, I've never played in a strictly-by-the-numbers game and crafting fees are a welcome part of the game (I never play crafters myself but am always happy to pay 15% for custom made gear).
Please take a look at the math, and tell me if there are any major errors in it. With the exception of Gauss, who provided a more robust math formula, no one has mentioned any errors in the above. Can you find any?
I don't know HOW that math suddenly finds the crafter having a WBL lower than the party. All I can conclude is that the math is made up.
A 3rd level party has a WBL of 3000. Say the party is 6 large, with one crafter. Everyone wants a different item that is worth 2000gp, so everyone in the party pays 1000gp to the crafter, who crafts the items. Their party's actual WBL has not changed in comparison to their expected WBL.
HOWEVER,
A crafter charging a 20% fee (as suggested) is lowering the actual WBL of his party members while substantially increasing his own.
Same scenario as before, but now the party is paying 1200 each, the crafter pays 1000 for his own item, and receives 200gp extra from his 5 teammates. The 5 non-crafters now have 2800gp, but their WBL is still 3000. The crafter now has 4000gp, but his expected WBL is still 3000.
But they can vote to make me craft for free?
You can't "vote" to dictate the actions of any character. But when crafting items for players, the prices are handled OUT of character, and the players can demand collectively for price-by-material cost
He's not making a gold farm. He would if he would charge full price. But he isn't. He's charging so he won't be at loss if it's 20%. Or he's losing out if it's less.
Charging any price beyond that spent on material cost is farming your team for gold.
No. I AIN'T. I would make money of them if the charging would make me richer than them, but I'm just trying to stay at an equal footing.
It does.
Taking the feat and crafting his own items makes the crafter effectively richer than the rest of the PCs. Yes. BUT THAT'S THE POINT OF THE FEAT. It's when the crafter crafts for his teammates at a lower than full price the WBL gets screwed, because they're getting richer than they should be and it's the crafter that pays for it with a feat.
Quote:
When the crafter crafts at material cost. The WBL stays the same for the whole party. When the crafter crafts at a fee, he increases his gold and decreases the party's, making himself richer.
Firstly - there are no rules for selling stuff to your teammates, so you really can't talk about RAW.
In general, a character can sell something for half its listed price, including weapons, armor, gear, and magic items. This also includes character-created items.
Trade goods are the exception to the half-price rule. A trade good, in this sense, is a valuable good that can be easily exchanged almost as if it were cash itself.
The text VERY CLEARLY makes no distinction between NPCs and Players.
Secondly - look at the Diplomacy skill. You can make requests. You can request from a NPC shopkeeper to lower the price. That's called haggling.
Anything to do with purchasing items at reduced cost is not one of the requests listed that could be used. There are only TWO requests listed, give aid, and give information.
It is up to the DM to determine if you can use diplomacy to haggle. Because RAW give no support to that.
I don't know HOW that math suddenly finds the crafter having a WBL lower than the party. All I can conclude is that the math is made up.
???
Since you don't understand something, the only conclusion that you can come to is that I made it up? Thanks for the insult and slap to the face.Have you read the the SKR FAQ? It was referenced in the math post, and copied in full a few posts back, post 1906 to be precise.
If I change the wording of the first phrase, would that help?
SKR’s clarification states that for calculations of Wealth By Level (WBL), the totals for crafter’s crafted items is based on the crafting price, not the retail cost. Everyone else has their WBL calculated using the retail cost.
Or: Non-crafter's WBL is calculated using the full retail cost for all magic items.
Crafter's WBL is calculated using the crafting cost of all magic items, not the retail cost, which ends up giving them double WBL if only the retail cost is looked at.
Does that help?
Please take a look at the math, and tell me if there are any major errors in it. With the exception of Gauss, who provided a more robust math formula, no one has mentioned any errors in the above. Can you find any?I don't know HOW that math suddenly finds the crafter having a WBL lower than the party. All I can conclude is that the math is made up.
A 3rd level party has a WBL of 3000. Say the party is 6 large, with one crafter. Everyone wants a different item that is worth 2000gp, so everyone in the party pays 1000gp to the crafter, who crafts the items. Their party's actual WBL has not changed in comparison to their expected WBL.
HOWEVER,
A crafter charging a 20% fee (as suggested) is lowering the actual WBL of his party members while substantially increasing his own.
Same scenario as before, but now the party is paying 1200 each, the crafter pays 1000 for his own item, and receives 200gp extra from his 5 teammates. The 5 non-crafters now have 2800gp, but their WBL is still 3000. The crafter now has 4000gp, but his expected WBL is still 3000.
I'm sorry, what?
If i have 3000 GP, and i pay someone 1000 Gp to make something thaw SHOULD cost me 2000, i am actually at 4000 Gp (2000 in cast, 2000 in item) i am UP.
If the crafter makes himself a 2000 gp item for 1000 gp, HE is 1000 gp UP. just like everyone else. Except that, according to the FAQ, crafters should not me making items for other party members at all, for the plethora of reasons we have discussed in this shameful debate. :)
ALL crafted items are treated as 1/2 their WBL. Players do NOT increase their WBL by buying crafted items.
I'm making them a bargain.No, you're not. The rules are giving YOU a bargain.
You're a metagamer. Your character knows nothing about rules. You the player are jealous of the other player, and are allowing that jealousy to slip into the thinking of the character you're playing.
The text VERY CLEARLY makes no distinction between NPCs and Players.
Are you not answering the question about what is the purpose of "in general" being there because you don't understand the question or is that you are avoding answering because the answer will undercut your argument?
The text VERY CLEARLY makes no distinction between NPCs and Players.Are you not answering the question about what is the purpose of "in general" being there because you don't understand the question or is that you are avoding answering because the answer will undercut your argument?
I don't even see the relevance.
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Magic Item Gold Piece Values
Many factors must be considered when determining the price
of new magic items. The easiest way to come up with a price
is to compare the new item to an item that is already priced,
using that price as a guide. Otherwise, use the guidelines
summarized on Table 15–29.
Multiple Similar Abilities: For items with multiple similar
abilities that don’t take up space on a character’s body, use
the following formula: Calculate the price of the single most
costly ability, then add 75% of the value of the next most costly
ability, plus 1/2 the value of any other abilities.
Multiple Different Abilities: Abilities such as an attack
roll bonus or saving throw bonus and a spell-like function
are not similar, and their values are simply added together
to determine the cost. For items that take up a space on a
character’s body, each additional power not only has no
discount but instead has a 50% increase in price.
0-Level Spells: When multiplying spell levels to determine
value, 0-level spells should be treated as 1/2 level.
Other Considerations: Once you have a cost figure, reduce
that number if either of the following conditions applies:
Item Requires Skill to Use: Some items require a specific skill
to get them to function. This factor should reduce the cost
about 10%.
Item Requires Specific Class or Alignment to Use: Even more
restrictive than requiring a skill, this limitation cuts the price
by 30%.
Prices presented in the magic item descriptions (the gold
piece value following the item’s slot) are the market value, which
is generally twice what it costs the creator to make the item.
Since different classes get access to certain spells at
different levels, the prices for two characters to make the same
item might actually be different. An item is only worth two
times what the caster of the lowest possible level can make it
for. Calculate the market price based on the lowest possible
level caster, no matter who makes the item.
Not all items adhere to these formulas. First and foremost,
these few formulas aren’t enough to truly gauge the exact
differences between items. The price of a magic item may
be modified based on its actual worth. The formulas only
provide a starting point. The pricing of scrolls assumes that,
whenever possible, a wizard or cleric created it. Potions and
wands follow the formulas exactly. Staves follow the formulas
closely, and other items require at least some judgment calls.
Magic item Creation
To create magic items, spellcasters use special feats which
allow them to invest time and money in an item’s creation.
At the end of this process, the spellcaster must make a single
skill check (usually Spellcraft, but sometimes another skill) to
finish the item. If an item type has multiple possible skills, you
choose which skill to make the check with. The DC to create a
magic item is 5 + the caster level for the item. Failing this check
means that the item does not function and the materials and
time are wasted. Failing this check by 5 or more results in a
cursed item (see Cursed Items for more information).
Note that all items have prerequisites in their descriptions.
These prerequisites must be met for the item to be created.
Most of the time, they take the form of spells that must be
known by the item’s creator (although access through another
magic item or spellcaster is allowed). The DC to create a
magic item increases by +5 for each prerequisite the caster
does not meet. The only exception to this is the requisite item
creation feat, which is mandatory. In addition, you cannot
create potions, spell-trigger, or spell-completion magic items
without meeting their spell prerequisites.
While item creation costs are handled in detail below, note
that normally the two primary factors are the caster level of
the creator and the level of the spell or spells put into the
item. A creator can create an item at a lower caster level than
her own, but never lower than the minimum level needed to
cast the needed spell. Using metamagic feats, a caster can
place spells in items at a higher level than normal.
Magic supplies for items are always half of the base price
in gp. For many items, the market price equals the base price.
Armor, shields, weapons, and items with value independent
of their magically enhanced properties add their item cost to
the market price. The item cost does not inf luence the base
price (which determines the cost of magic supplies), but it
does increase the final market price.
In addition, some items cast or replicate spells with
costly material components. For these items, the market
price equals the base price plus an extra price for the spell
component costs. The cost to create these items is the magic
supplies cost plus the costs for the components. Descriptions
of these items include an entry that gives the total cost of
creating the item.
The creator also needs a fairly quiet, comfortable, and welllit
place in which to work. Any place suitable for preparing
spells is suitable for making items. Creating an item requires
8 hours of work per 1,000 gp in the item’s base price (or
fraction thereof ), with a minimum of at least 8 hours. Potions
and scrolls are an exception to this rule; they can take as little
as 2 hours to create (if their base price is 250 gp or less). Scrolls
and potions whose base price is more than 250 gp, but less
than 1,000 gp, take 8 hours to create, just like any other magic
item. The character must spend the gold at the beginning of
the construction process. Regardless of the time needed for
construction, a caster can create no more than one magic item
per day. This process can be accelerated to 4 hours of work
per 1,000 gp in the item’s base price (or fraction thereof ) by
increasing the DC to create the item by +5.
The caster can work for up to 8 hours each day. He cannot
rush the process by working longer each day, but the days need
not be consecutive, and the caster can use the rest of his time as
he sees fit. If the caster is out adventuring, he can devote 4 hours
each day to item creation, although he nets only 2 hours’ worth
of work. This time is not spent in one continuous period, but
rather during lunch, morning preparation, and during watches
at night. If time is dedicated to creation, it must be spent in
uninterrupted 4-hour blocks. This work is generally done in a
controlled environment, where distractions are at a minimum,
such as a laboratory or shrine. Work that is performed in
a distracting or dangerous environment nets only half the
amount of progress ( just as with the adventuring caster).
A character can work on only one item at a time. If a
character starts work on a new item, all materials used on the
under-construction item are wasted.
I would recommend that some of you really sit down and read the above.
I also want to remind those of you to be on the look out for the word called "guidelines".
You're a metagamer. Your character knows nothing about rules. You the player are jealous of the other player, and are allowing that jealousy to slip into the thinking of the character you're playing.I'm making them a bargain.No, you're not. The rules are giving YOU a bargain.
Crafters are metagaming by selling below merchant price. How is the crafter suppose to "know about the rules" that he can't sell above 50% cost?
Accusations of "metagaming" are futile and pointless.
ALL crafted items are treated as 1/2 their WBL. Players do NOT increase their WBL by buying crafted items.
As you seem to have misted a few posts/items, I am reposting:
PC Wealth By Level (page 399): If a PC has an item crafting feat, does a crafted item count as its Price or its Cost?
1. It counts as the item's Cost, not the Price. This comes into play in two ways.
If you're equipping a higher-level PC, you have to count crafted items at their Cost. Otherwise the character isn't getting any benefit for having the feat. Of course, the GM is free to set limits in equipping the character, such as "no more than 40% of your wealth can be used for armor" (instead of the "balanced approach" described on page 400 where the PC should spend no more than 25% on armor).
If you're looking at the party's overall wealth by level, you have to count crafted items at their Cost. Otherwise, if you counted crafted items at their Price, the crafting character would look like she had more wealth than appropriate for her level, and the GM would have to to bring this closer to the target gear value by reducing future treasure for that character, which means eventually that character has the same gear value as a non-crafting character--in effect neutralizing any advantage of having that feat at all.
Please take a look at what I bolded. SKR, to me at least, is saying that only for the crafting character does the items they crafted count at cost rather than the retail price.
If you are reading that differently, please indicate what is leading you to that conclusion and explain how the bolded sections are affected.
What is the point of taking crafting feats for the crafter?
Very, very rarely does a player spend a precious feat on something that will benefit another party member, or the whole party, rather than just themselves.
Any rogue in the universe would love for the party fighter to take Combat Expertise < Improved Feint < Greater Feint , but I've never heard of that happening. About the only way I can see such build sacrifice happening is if the Rogue got himself a fighter cohort with the leadership feat. Craft Wondrous Item and Craft Magical Arms and Armor are feats that are like this however. A wizard that takes them could be taking something like Spell Focus, Improved Initiative, Toughness, Augment Summoning, Superior Summoning, Craft Staff, Craft Wand, a Quicken Spell, Extend Spell, Intensify Spell, or one of the Arcane Discoveries. A wizard is much less dependent on magical equipment than most other party members, as he has spells that can duplicate the effects of just about any item he could make. It is a sacrifice for him to take those crafting feats.
That being said, a Wizard's Job isn't crafting items. A wizard's job is to cast spells in (and out of) combat to support the party in a fight. A cleric's job is to buff, heal, etc. A fighter's job is "tank." Crafting is extra, so a cleric charging for healing is not comparable. (It would not be unreasonable for a cleric to charge for expensive material components used in things such as raise dead) A cleric charging for healing would be like the wizard charging for every spell he cast that benefited the party, as if he was an NPC.
I've never been in a party with a caster that took crafting feats. If a Wizard took the Craft Wondrous Items feat in my party, I'd be happy to pay them up to +50% for what they paid to make the item. They'd make a profit, and I'd still be saving 25% on the item. It'd also allow them to continue to make more and more and more items for the whole party, and themselves. And what will they make for themselves? Hopefully wands, staves, and scrolls, which will also help me in the long run, but that take a fair amount of investment up front. I think 25% sounds like the most reasonable number to me. 10% is cheap and free is being extorted.
I think the best solution is one that has been suggested and endorsed by many others: ask the DM to let you retrain the feat to one that will cause less controversy. The fighter isn't a punching bag, the rogue is more than trap finder, and the cleric isn't just a box of band aids. Likewise, the wizard deserves respect, and should not be taken for granted.
ALL crafted items are treated as 1/2 their WBL. Players do NOT increase their WBL by buying crafted items.As you seem to have misted a few posts/items, I am reposting:
PC Wealth By Level (page 399): If a PC has an item crafting feat, does a crafted item count as its Price or its Cost?
1. It counts as the item's Cost, not the Price. This comes into play in two ways.
If you're equipping a higher-level PC, you have to count crafted items at their Cost. Otherwise the character isn't getting any benefit for having the feat. Of course, the GM is free to set limits in equipping the character, such as "no more than 40% of your wealth can be used for armor" (instead of the "balanced approach" described on page 400 where the PC should spend no more than 25% on armor).
If you're looking at the party's overall wealth by level, you have to count crafted items at their Cost. Otherwise, if you counted crafted items at their Price, the crafting character would look like she had more wealth than appropriate for her level, and the GM would have to to bring this closer to the target gear value by reducing future treasure for that character, which means eventually that character has the same gear value as a non-crafting character--in effect neutralizing any advantage of having that feat at all.
Please take a look at what I bolded. SKR, to me at least, is saying that only for the crafting character does the items they crafted count at cost rather than the retail price.
If you are reading that differently, please indicate what is leading you to that conclusion and explain how the bolded sections are affected.
What is the point of taking crafting feats for the crafter?
All magic items are counted for WBL purposes at their COST. The price of cost is what the crafter is paying to MAKE the item. The PRICE is the amount PCs would be buying from NPCs.
If the COST of the item is the price that crafters are creating the item, then PCs who are paying an additional fee not related to the cost are having their WBL being reduced.
WBL is based on cost not price. And because cost is usually half of price, WBL is determined by half the item's store price.
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So, i have a crafting wizard and we're playing kingmaker, we just hitted lvl 5 and started building the kingdom.
I'm a LN mage follower of Abadar, the other party member are a paladin a LG oracle, a NG inquisitor and a N druid.
I decided to add a 10% fee on the creation cost when crafting item for the party (this mean that a belt of +2 str will cost them 2200 instead of 2000, which is still a lot better than 4000); this caused an unexpected reaction on the other players (not pg, players).
They now pretty much consider me to be a jerk, just suggesting this we're arrived to the point of them preferring to buy the items at full price and they said me this is not right since the don't make me pay for cure, tanking ecc ecc.
This was totally unexpected by this group since they are always very mature, am i missing something and being "that guy" without knowing? Is this some kind of delicate argument in the average group?
Some advice on how to deal with this situation will be most appreciated! :)
okay what im about to say here is probably a thing of the past this dispute is kind of old.
First off i have never been a crafting caster, I leave that to my friends. I do know this crafting casters help in battle to (hints why healers fighters ext ext cant charge for battle services because everyone is involved in the fight, so trash that crap argument)
Next reading over some of the posts no one has a VALID argument as to why he can not charge. its like tipping in big cities ITS REQUIRED that and he is spending his time and FEATS to do this. If I was crafting I would charge around 15% I mean why shouldn't he?
As a non craftier I look at this and am like hmmmm 4000g for belt or 2150g for belt just like I don't know...I think I take 4000g one I is stupid barbarian can't count savings...come on shut up and pay the 15% and get over it you are STILL SAVING MONEY!!
My advice is just tell them: I understand where you are coming from, but Most of you are feat hungry needing to take specific feats at the right time to get the right feat progression. I however am taking this feat using MY spare time and providing you with while not the best discount it is the best you will find, and it is keeping the money in the party as well. If you were to charge for doing stuff in fights like stopping that Orc or healing me, I too cast spells that if used as a scroll cost money. I do not charge for that cause just like you that is my roll in the party. To round this off I make you Items for cheaper and it should be considered a FAVOR not my job because I do spend MY time and MY feats to do this as an EXTRA job, not as my party roll.
I really hope this helps. cause if my craftier charged me (as he occasionally does) I PAY him the extra cause the money stays in the party and I get the SAME EXACT ITEM I WANT FOR CHEAPER!!! That's how I see it anywho. hope you all have fun playing your games with a new view of your hard at work craftier, caster friend.
All magic items are counted for WBL purposes at their COST. The price of cost is what the crafter is paying to MAKE the item. The PRICE is the amount PCs would be buying from NPCs.
If the COST of the item is the price that crafters are creating the item, then PCs who are paying an additional fee not related to the cost are having their WBL being reduced.
WBL is based on cost not price. And because cost is usually half of price, WBL is determined by half the item's store price.
Please stop yelling.
I see that once again you have avoided answering any of the questions. You have simply restated your previous assertions.
Is there any particular reason that you are not answering the questions? Or are you going to say that you don't see the relevance of the question to avoid answering again?