Creating magical item for the party + small fee on the work = players uprorar?


Advice

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Banatine wrote:
CommandoDude wrote:

Crafters are metagaming by selling below merchant price. How is the crafter suppose to "know about the rules" that he can't sell above 50% cost?

Accusations of "metagaming" are futile and pointless.

So, what you are saying is that PC crafters can ONLY sell for full price?

Well, that's ONE solution...

No. I am saying that bringing up the rules is relevant to a discussion about "what the characters would do"

Saying that characters are not 'aware' of the rules is pointless, because the players ARE. And the character's actions are linked to the player's actions. If the rules limit the player's actions, they also limit the characters actions.

Therefor, the rules HAVE to be relevant for the character. Even if they're not suppose to be 'aware' of them.

Silver Crusade

I want to go ahead and post what would actually happen "in game" with the whole ordeal.

Bob The Wizard: "Hey Mike!" "I just created this +2 longsword, would you like to buy it for $4,400 gp?

Mike the Rogue: "Hmmmmmm" *Makes an Appraise check DC 20 and remembers that a +2 longsword goes for 8,000 gp so he knows he is getting the sword for 3,600 gp less than it's actual worth.* "Sure, I'll take the sword"

That is how it would play out, well Mike may still refuse to buy it but you get the point. Unless Mike himself is a crafter he will not know how much it cost to actually make it, unless the guy playing Mike meta-games.


Mistwalker wrote:


I see that once again you have avoided answering any of the questions. You have simply restated your previous assertions.

Is there any particular reason that you are not answering the questions? Or are you going to say that you don't see the relevance of the question to avoid answering again?

I have not avoided the question. I answered the question. Stop making crap accusations.

The rules say that

Quote:
If you're equipping a higher-level PC, you have to count crafted items at their Cost.
Quote:
If you're looking at the party's overall wealth by level, you have to count crafted items at their Cost.

It says right there crafted items are counted at cost.

There is no distinction in the FAQ between crafters and non-crafters. The question, is specifically answering "Does a crafted item count as its price or cost."

Any player with a crafted item counts their WBL at its cost.


CommandoDude wrote:

It says right there crafted items are counted at cost.

There is no distinction in the FAQ between crafters and non-crafters. The question, is specifically answering "Does a crafted item count as its price or cost."

Any player with a crafted item counts their WBL at its cost.

And then it says right there that it means the crafter. Selective reading much?


Pathfinder Maps Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber
CommandoDude wrote:

I have not avoided the question. I answered the question. Stop making crap accusations.

The rules say that

Quote:
If you're looking at the party's overall wealth by level, you have to count crafted items at their Cost.

It says right there crafted items are counted at cost.

There is no distinction in the FAQ between crafters and non-crafters. The question, is specifically answering "Does a crafted item count as its price or cost."

Any player with a crafted item counts their WBL at its cost.

Interesting that you stop reading at that one phrase, but don't go on to the bolded portion later in the paragraph. I was always taught that phrases in the same paragraph are usually related to the same point.

For the record, the second phrase in that paragraph is: Otherwise, if you counted crafted items at their Price, the crafting character would look like she had more wealth than appropriate for her level, and the GM would have to to bring this closer to the target gear value by reducing future treasure for that character, which means eventually that character has the same gear value as a non-crafting character--in effect neutralizing any advantage of having that feat at all.

You also seem to have misread/ignored part of the question from the FAQ. The full question is: If a PC has an item crafting feat, does a crafted item count as its Price or its Cost?


ImperatorK wrote:
CommandoDude wrote:
Mistwalker wrote:


I see that once again you have avoided answering any of the questions. You have simply restated your previous assertions.

Is there any particular reason that you are not answering the questions? Or are you going to say that you don't see the relevance of the question to avoid answering again?

I have not avoided the question. I answered the question. Stop making crap accusations.

The rules say that

Quote:
If you're equipping a higher-level PC, you have to count crafted items at their Cost.
Quote:
If you're looking at the party's overall wealth by level, you have to count crafted items at their Cost.

It says right there crafted items are counted at cost.

There is no distinction in the FAQ between crafters and non-crafters. The question, is specifically answering "Does a crafted item count as its price or cost."

Any player with a crafted item counts their WBL at its cost.

And then it says right there that it means the crafter.

No, it doesn't.

Look at the question again.

Quote:
If a PC has an item crafting feat, does a crafted item count as its Price or its Cost?

The first part of the question is irrelevant. Since it is only a premise. The question is, "Does a crafted item count as its price or its cost."

The answer clearly says "party's overall WBL" and is clearly lumping all the players together.

Even assuming that I am wrong, and players do count WBL as the magic item's price. Then the price would be whatever the crafter sets it at, meaning not the price listed for purchasing from NPCs.


Quote:
The first part of the question is irrelevant.

No, it is relevant. It's just not relevant to your argument.

Changing the rules is houseruling. We aren't talking about your houserules. Please stop mentioning them.

Quote:
Even assuming that I am wrong, and players do count WBL as the magic item's price. Then the price would be whatever the crafter sets it at, meaning not the price listed for purchasing from NPCs.

WBL cares only about the full price. And yes, you are wrong.

There is also that part where the FAQ Ruling:

Quote:
which means eventually that [crafting] character has the same gear value as a non-crafting character--in effect neutralizing any advantage of having that feat at all.

So if the crafter crafts for free then his gear value is the same as his non-crafting teammates. And that's not how it should be.


ImperatorK wrote:
Quote:
The first part of the question is irrelevant.
No, it is relevant. It's just not relevant to your argument.

Again, wrong. You are reading the sentence wrong.

The first part is not a part of the question. If you do not understand, the punctuation changes the context of the sentance.

The question does not read:

If, a PC has an item crafting feat does a crafted item count as its Price or its Cost?

It clearly reads:

If a PC has an item crafting feat, does a crafted item count as its Price or its Cost?

Punctuation is very important. It can change the entire context of a sentence. http://www.emwa.org/PastTWS/FatalcommaClark.pdf


Pathfinder Maps Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber
CommandoDude wrote:

Look at the question again.

Quote:
If a PC has an item crafting feat, does a crafted item count as its Price or its Cost?
The first part of the question is irrelevant. Since it is only a premise. The question is, "Does a crafted item count as its price or its cost."

Hmm, interesting. The definition of premise is: A proposition upon which an argument is based or from which a conclusion is drawn.

So, the base of the argument is irrelevant.

So, if it countrary to your arugument, it is irrelevant. With that kind of logic, you can justify to yourself anything you want.


Quote:
Again, wrong. You are reading the sentence wrong.

No, you are reading the sentence wrong.

If your argument depends on punctuation than I can conclude that your argument is weak and irrelevant.


ImperatorK wrote:
Quote:
Again, wrong. You are reading the sentence wrong.
No, you are reading the sentence wrong.

You should retake English class to learn more about punctuation.


CommandoDude wrote:
ImperatorK wrote:
Quote:
Again, wrong. You are reading the sentence wrong.
No, you are reading the sentence wrong.
You should retake English class to learn more about punctuation.

So because I'm disagreeing with you it means my English is poor? Classy argument. Why must the "free crafting crowd" always lower themselves to petty insults?

So is there anyone else who would want to give a REAL argument?


IF the first half of the question wasn't relevant, why would they even bother writing it? (note, the comma does not make the first half of this sentence irrelevant...)

Are you purely doing this to further the cause of reaching 2K posts, or are are you HONESTLY saying that it isn't relevant?

Answer carefully, it will determine how seriously i can take ANY post you make from here on out.


Pathfinder Maps Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber

@ ImperatorK

I am done responding to CommandoDude.

To me, his appears to be ignoring anything that doesn't support his arguments or he is trolling.


ImperatorK wrote:
CommandoDude wrote:
ImperatorK wrote:
Quote:
Again, wrong. You are reading the sentence wrong.
No, you are reading the sentence wrong.
You should retake English class to learn more about punctuation.

So because I'm disagreeing with you it means my English is poor? clssy argument.

So is there anyone else who would want to give a REAL argument?

To put it bluntly. Yes.

I explained how punctuation changed the context of the sentence. You just said "Nope, you're wrong."

The only person who should be making a "REAL" argument is you.


Mistwalker wrote:

@ ImperatorK

I am done responding to CommandoDude.

To me, his appears to be ignoring anything that doesn't support his arguments or he is trolling.

Yeah, me too.

BTW. Is it allowed to call someone a troll? I was avoiding it, because I don't want to get warned, but if it's allowed...


CommandoDude wrote:
ImperatorK wrote:
CommandoDude wrote:
ImperatorK wrote:
Quote:
Again, wrong. You are reading the sentence wrong.
No, you are reading the sentence wrong.
You should retake English class to learn more about punctuation.

So because I'm disagreeing with you it means my English is poor? clssy argument.

So is there anyone else who would want to give a REAL argument?

To put it bluntly. Yes.

I explained how punctuation changed the context of the sentence. You just said "Nope, you're wrong."

The only person who should be making a "REAL" argument is you.

Why? So you can ignore them some more? I already stated my arguments.


Banatine wrote:
IF the first half of the question wasn't relevant, why would they even bother writing it? (note, the comma does not make the first half of this sentence irrelevant...

Maybe because it's frequently paired with the question?

Look, the answer doesn't say anything about how magic items crafted and in turn given to players are handled. So I am simply defaulting to the text given, which states WBL is counted at cost not price.
ImperatorK 2 minutes ago

Quote:
Why? So you can ignore them some more? I already stated my arguments.

Calling me a "Troll" just because you disagree with me is stupid.

If anyone is, it must be you. Because I keep responding to your 'arguments' and you keep saying that I'm doing no such thing.


ImperatorK wrote:

There is also that part where the FAQ Ruling:

Quote:
which means eventually that [crafting] character has the same gear value as a non-crafting character--in effect neutralizing any advantage of having that feat at all.
So if the crafter crafts for free then his gear value is the same as his non-crafting teammates. And that's not how it should be.


CommandoDude wrote:
Calling me a "Troll" just because you disagree with me is stupid.

Then stop trolling?

Quote:
If anyone is, it must be you. Because I keep responding to your 'arguments' and you keep saying that I'm doing no such thing.

You're not responding to my arguments. You're houseruling and nitpicking at punctuation. That's not an argument.


ImperatorK wrote:
ImperatorK wrote:

There is also that part where the FAQ Ruling:

Quote:
which means eventually that [crafting] character has the same gear value as a non-crafting character--in effect neutralizing any advantage of having that feat at all.
So if the crafter crafts for free then his gear value is the same as his non-crafting teammates. And that's not how it should be.

This essentially gives further support to my argument, that WBL is determined by cost for all character created items. Since the developers obviously intended that item creation confer no benefit to crafters or non-crafters.


1 person marked this as a favorite.

I personally find this whole thread funny. It's basically a long drawn-out argument where both sides accuse the other of being greedy for playing the game differently.

Personally?

I play each character differently, but right now, my sorcerer charges 70% of market, and the rest of the players are perfectly fine with it.

If anyone brought up an in-game complaint:

"Wait... that item would ordinarily cost you 10k. I'm saving you three thousand gold. I'm the one spending all the time and effort to make this for you, and I'm only getting two thousand out of it. I'm doing the effort, you're getting more gold than me... how is that unfair exactly?"

If anyone brought up an out-of-game complaint:

"You know, I wanted to take Greater Spell Focus (Illusion). I weakened my character a bit so that the party would have a cheaper way of getting items than full market price. If you think that what I'm doing is wrong, I'm fine with switching to GSF instead... but I don't why you'd be happier paying 100% than paying 70%. That 20% 'profit' is generally going towards making up for losing a feat - hopefully it'll let me upgrade my CHA headband to make up for the loss."

... but it's group dependent. If the group's general thought process was "Regardless of character motivation, there's a social contract to play for absolute optimal group strength" then I wouldn't charge at all. Our group's thought process is more on role-playing individual characters that happen to be in the business of adventuring together, so for my character to spend all that time and effort for zero personal gain makes no sense in our group.


CommandoDude wrote:
Banatine wrote:
IF the first half of the question wasn't relevant, why would they even bother writing it? (note, the comma does not make the first half of this sentence irrelevant...

Maybe because it's frequently paired with the question?

Look, the answer doesn't say anything about how magic items crafted and in turn given to players are handled. So I am simply defaulting to the text given, which states WBL is counted at cost not price.
ImperatorK 2 minutes ago

Quote:
Why? So you can ignore them some more? I already stated my arguments.

Calling me a "Troll" just because you disagree with me is stupid.

If anyone is, it must be you. Because I keep responding to your 'arguments' and you keep saying that I'm doing no such thing.

We aren't calling you a troll because we disagree with you.

We are calling you a troll because you are, obviously and deliberately, misinterpriting the intent in order to annoy people.

However, i will hand it to you, until you arrived i didn't think anyone would be able to make a more tenuous argument that AD... :)


ImperatorK wrote:
If anyone is, it must be you. Because I keep responding to your 'arguments' and you keep saying that I'm doing no such thing.
You're not responding to my arguments.

I see you trolling, I hating, catching you riding dirty.

I keep responding, and you keep responding saying that I am not responding.

Logic. You have none.

Quote:
You're houseruling

Nope.avi

Quote:
and nitpicking at punctuation. That's not an argument.

Yes it is. Punctuation changes the context of sentances.

You must not have even read the link.

“Pardon impossible, to be sent to Siberia.”

Reads NOTHING like.

“Pardon, impossible to be sent to Siberia.”

A man's life was saved over punctuation. That is how IMPORTANT and NOT nitpicky punctuation can be.


Quote:
This essentially gives further support to my argument, that WBL is determined by cost for all character created items. Since the developers obviously intended that item creation confer no benefit to crafters or non-crafters.

Lol? You must be trolling. That quote says, very clearly, that if the non-crafters have the same gear value as the crafter then the crafter effectively gets no benefit from taking his crafting feats. Are seriously saying that it was intended that a crafter got no benefit from taking crafting feats? O.o


Banatine wrote:


We are calling you a troll because you are, obviously and deliberately, misinterpriting the intent in order to annoy people.

Then I can do the same. Because you're obviously and deliberately misinterpreting the intent of the FAQ in order to annoy me.

I provided a very clear argument that the context was changed due to the presence of punctuation and MY argument was promptly ignored in favor of personal attacks against myself.


CommandoDude wrote:
Banatine wrote:


We are calling you a troll because you are, obviously and deliberately, misinterpriting the intent in order to annoy people.

Then I can do the same. Because you're obviously and deliberately misinterpreting the intent of the FAQ in order to annoy me.

I provided a very clear argument that the context was changed due to the presence of punctuation and MY argument was promptly ignored in favor of personal attacks against myself.

If you're completely alone in your interpretation then that should give you a hint that your interpretation is wrong.


ImperatorK wrote:
Quote:
This essentially gives further support to my argument, that WBL is determined by cost for all character created items. Since the developers obviously intended that item creation confer no benefit to crafters or non-crafters.
Lol? You must be trolling. That quote says, very clearly, that if the non-crafters have the same gear value as the crafter then the crafter effectively gets no benefit from taking his crafting feats. Are seriously saying that it was intended that a crafter got no benefit from taking crafting feats? O.o

YES! THERE IS NO MONETARY BENEFIT FROM TAKING CRAFTING FEATS CHRIST.

The item creation feats are a means to convert gold into magic items without A) Creating extra gold for the party and B) Increasing WBL.

Ignoring anything about party dynamics, a crafter who crafts a 2000gp magic item for himself does not alter his WBL or his gold amount.

The ONLY thing item creation does, is increase the purchasing power of the crafter (without giving him access to more gold).


ImperatorK wrote:
Quote:
This essentially gives further support to my argument, that WBL is determined by cost for all character created items. Since the developers obviously intended that item creation confer no benefit to crafters or non-crafters.
Lol? You must be trolling. That quote says, very clearly, that if the non-crafters have the same gear value as the crafter then the crafter effectively gets no benefit from taking his crafting feats. Are seriously saying that it was intended that a crafter got no benefit from taking crafting feats? O.o

Yeah, let's stop feeding the troll? I'd rather we actually returned to LOGICAL, INTELLIGENT debate, and didn't argue over something so pathetic...


So crafting feats are useless to crafters. Gotcha.


ImperatorK wrote:
CommandoDude wrote:
Banatine wrote:


We are calling you a troll because you are, obviously and deliberately, misinterpriting the intent in order to annoy people.

Then I can do the same. Because you're obviously and deliberately misinterpreting the intent of the FAQ in order to annoy me.

I provided a very clear argument that the context was changed due to the presence of punctuation and MY argument was promptly ignored in favor of personal attacks against myself.

If you're completely alone in your interpretation then that normally means that your interpretation is wrong.

Argumentum ad populum

Simply because my interpretation is not more popular doesn't make it any more or less true.


It does give you a hint that it might be wrong.


ImperatorK wrote:
So crafting feats are useless to crafters. Gotcha.

Nice strawman. I very clearly said what the feat's benefit was.

ImperatorK wrote:
It does give you a hint that it might be wrong.

That could be true. But that doesn't MAKE it true. I guess another FAQ is the only confirmation


CommandoDude wrote:
ImperatorK wrote:
So crafting feats are useless to crafters. Gotcha.

Nice strawman. I very clearly said what the feat's benefit was.

ImperatorK wrote:
It does give you a hint that it might be wrong.
That could be true. But that doesn't MAKE it true. I guess another FAQ is the only confirmation

There's no benefit to the crafter. All he does is become weaker than his teammates.

In order for your interpretation to be true and our to be false, we would have to be idiots. I might be an idiot but I doubt that all of us are.


ImperatorK wrote:
CommandoDude wrote:
ImperatorK wrote:
So crafting feats are useless to crafters. Gotcha.

Nice strawman. I very clearly said what the feat's benefit was.

ImperatorK wrote:
It does give you a hint that it might be wrong.
That could be true. But that doesn't MAKE it true. I guess another FAQ is the only confirmation

There's no benefit to the crafter. All he does is become weaker than his teammates.

In order for your interpretation to be true and our to be false, we would have to be idiots. I might be an idiot but I doubt that all of us are.

Wrong. According to my interpretation, the crafter does not become weaker or stronger than his teammates.

I very clearly stated that the benefit of item creation feats is the ability to access magic items with less purchasing power. Along with the ability to convert gold into magic items.

That provides no monetary incentive or disability to the crafter.


Quote:
Wrong. According to my interpretation, the crafter does not become weaker or stronger than his teammates.

He does, because they get better items for a lower price, but the crafter has to waste feat(s) and time to make them. The feats purpose is to give better items to the crafter, not his teammates.

Quote:

I very clearly stated that the benefit of item creation feats is the ability to access magic items with less purchasing power. Along with the ability to convert gold into magic items.

That provides no monetary incentive or disability to the crafter.

He invests feat(s) and time.

Now, that's the last post I'm going to waste on you. Unless you provide some new argument, I'm ignoring you. Bye.


ImperatorK wrote:
Quote:
Wrong. According to my interpretation, the crafter does not become weaker or stronger than his teammates.

He does, because they get better items for a lower price, but the crafter has to waste feat(s) and time to make them. The feats purpose is to give better items to the crafter, not his teammates.

Quote:

I very clearly stated that the benefit of item creation feats is the ability to access magic items with less purchasing power. Along with the ability to convert gold into magic items.

That provides no monetary incentive or disability to the crafter.

He invests feat(s) and time.

Only if he crafts items for himself and not his party.

Financially, there should be no difference between him and the party; assuming a balanced loot distribution.

His investment gives himself and the whole party an advantage. Just like a Cleric's investment in 'Extra Channel' gives himself and the whole party an advantage.


Pathfinder Maps Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber

Casts Owl's Wisdom on ImperatorK.

That should help with your will save
:)


I can't beleive we are gonna hit 2K posts while in the middle of, literally, the most laughable argument i have EVER seen!

I'm not sure whether to laugh or cry... Just don't rage. If you rage, you lose! ;)


Mistwalker wrote:

Casts Owl's Wisdom on ImperatorK.

That should help with your will save
:)

No need. Being an ex-troll gives my immunity. :D


Is this a hot button issue or what? I wonder what the record for longest thread is?

Quote:
Creating magical item for the party + small fee on the work = players uprorar?

For me it would depend on what was being crafted. If it was something that made me better at my group job, I would expect it to be made at cost because it makes the whole group better. If it was an item I only wanted for personal reasons and had no impact on group performance, then I would be willing to pay a little extra. Though, since our characters are presumably companions who depend upon each other in life or death situations, I would expect him to keep it reasonable, +10% or so.

It also depends on how much I was abusing the privelege. If the crafter was constantly being asked to craft stuff for the party with no chance to pursue his own goals, I would expect him to say "no" or maybe charge extra. If on the other hand, he had plenty of downtime and just wanted to charge extra because he wanted to. I would gently remind him of the many time we had saved each others lives, etc...
I did like the answer that had some extra going to either a group fund or outside account. Say a cleric crafter asking for a small donation to his church or saying, "I'm going to use those funds to make a wand of CLW".


Banatine wrote:

I can't beleive we are gonna hit 2K posts while in the middle of, literally, the most laughable argument i have EVER seen!

I'm not sure whether to laugh or cry... Just don't rage. If you rage, you lose! ;)

I know. Here were my thoughts in order:

A) Hey! This topic looks interesting!
B) Wow, it's something that came up in my group recently! I'd like to add my thoughts to the discussion
C) But... I don't want to add without reading previous comments. Maybe someone's already brought it up?
D) Okay... past several pages. Uh... just how long does this thing go?
E) Click 'Last'
F) Holy #%%^#%$


Valandil Ancalime wrote:

Is this a hot button issue or what? I wonder what the record for longest thread is?

Quote:
Creating magical item for the party + small fee on the work = players uprorar?

For me it would depend on what was being crafted. If it was something that made me better at my group job, I would expect it to be made at cost because it makes the whole group better. If it was an item I only wanted for personal reasons and had no impact on group performance, then I would be willing to pay a little extra. Though, since our characters are presumably companions who depend upon each other in life or death situations, I would expect him to keep it reasonable, +10% or so.

It also depends on how much I was abusing the privelege. If the crafter was constantly being asked to craft stuff for the party with no chance to pursue his own goals, I would expect him to say "no" or maybe charge extra. If on the other hand, he had plenty of downtime and just wanted to charge extra because he wanted to. I would gently remind him of the many time we had saved each others lives, etc...
I did like the answer that had some extra going to either a group fund or outside account. Say a cleric crafter asking for a small donation to his church or saying, "I'm going to use those funds to make a wand of CLW".

Mother of God, a reasonable new poster has entered the fray! is this a sign of the apocalypse? XD


Quote:
I would expect it to be made at cost because it makes the whole group better.

It is being made at cost. you save 30-40%.


Pathfinder Maps Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber
Valandil Ancalime wrote:
Is this a hot button issue or what? I wonder what the record for longest thread is?

Well, a lot of us keep failing our will saves and return to the thread.

:)

I have no idea what the longest thread is, but one of the goals for the last 1000 posts or so is to get to 2000+ posts.


Mistwalker wrote:
Valandil Ancalime wrote:
Is this a hot button issue or what? I wonder what the record for longest thread is?

Well, a lot of us keep failing our will saves and return to the thread.

:)

I have no idea what the longest thread is, but one of the goals for the last 1000 posts or so is to get to 2000+ posts.

remember that time at about 12-1300 posts where it looks like it MIGHT just stop? Now those were fun times!


In anycase, I'm absolutely done with this thread since I don't appreciate being insulted.


Pathfinder Maps Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber
Banatine wrote:
Mistwalker wrote:
Valandil Ancalime wrote:
Is this a hot button issue or what? I wonder what the record for longest thread is?

Well, a lot of us keep failing our will saves and return to the thread.

:)

I have no idea what the longest thread is, but one of the goals for the last 1000 posts or so is to get to 2000+ posts.

remember that time at about 12-1300 posts where it looks like it MIGHT just stop? Now those were fun times!

You mean when a lot of us failed our saves all at the same time?


Pathfinder Maps Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber

I will provide a recap later today for those joining the thread but who don't want to wade through 2000+ posts


Pathfinder Maps Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber
CommandoDude wrote:
In anycase, I'm absolutely done with this thread since I don't appreciate being insulted.

Failed save.

Neither do the rest of us.

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