By choosing crafting feats you take on the unspoken responsibility of spending downtime to help the group build stuff that would normally be unavailable to them because of costs or circumstances.
From the number of posts that say the 5% overall fee is not unreasonable, then I think that this whole issue should not be considered an unspoken responsibility. I think that it should be clearly stated up front, at character creation or new player being brought in.
Consider this: by crafting an item rather than having them pay for it you allow the group to take advantage of the half cost advantage.You're forgetting the biggest advantage of all - custom ordering. The Fighter wants X item, but rolls poorly when looking for one. Sorry, there are none available, but you can try next month. Okay, so he goes to the party crafter instead. That is a huge advantage all by itself.
Tacking on 10% doesn't seem so egregious.
And what happens if the rest of the group simply decides to spend feat slots themselves and don't bother trying to exploit the rest of the group? The wizards going to throw a hissy fit? IS he going to start charging for spellcasting too?
This is the can of worms I'm talking about here. If the featslot gives the group such a huge advantage why does the caster feel the need to charge his fellow party members extra on items they'll be using to his benefit anyway?
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While all these analogies are fun let's look at it another more relevant way.
By choosing crafting feats you take on the unspoken responsibility of spending downtime to help the group build stuff that would normally be unavailable to them because of costs or circumstances. Now while I agree the fee is small and reasonable you have to understand this is an advantage being gained by you you would otherwise not gain were the aprty pay full price.
Forget the analogies it's being exploitative to your party members and in the end it harms you as well as the group. Consider this: by crafting an item rather than having them pay for it you allow the group to take advantage of the half cost advantage. By raising this price you remove some that advantage purely for a personal advantage gained for yourself. If you count that the money they would otherwise have had would have likely gone towards more stuff to make the party as a whole better rather than to the benefit of one character.
This is one of those unspoken rules that simply go unsaid like:
1. The rest of the group doesn't kill your character and take his stuff.
Another way to look at it: Lets say item is normally 2000gp. it takes 1000gp to create. Crafter adds 10% to cost so its now 1100gp. One guy increases his charecter wealth by 900gp by not having to pay full price, while the other char increases his weath by 100gp, by doing all the work.
I don't see a problem with charging for crafting.
It does not harm the group to provide items at discount prices... It helps the party. Even if it only helps the party 90% instead of 100%.
Here's the deal. You want to play your character as profiting from servicing the needs of the party, don't be surprised when the party reciprocates.
If someone in my party pulled something like this, they would immediately be kicked out, or else they would find themselves being charged for every single thing my character did that they benefitted from. Need heals? Fine, five GP per hit point. Need buff? No problem, 50gp x buff level squared, or you're on your own.
Heh... as I said, you try this in my party and you'll be paying for your heals. The unspoken agreement among party members is that you are all in this together, not profiting from each other. If you want to profit from me because you took a feat, then I will have no problem deciding what benefits you get from me that you will have to pay for yourself.
Tit for tat. Sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander.
You could have taken another combat feat and improved your combat effectiveness. You chose instead to take a feat that supposedly benefitted the group in a different way. Now you want to charge me for it?
Bullcrap.
And if the crafter is the healer?
Are you saying that PCs in your game are forced to take combat or crafting feats? The reason that I am asking is your last paragraph.
The question that I asked earlier that hasn't been answered yet, if the crafter, instead of the crafting feat takes skill focus craft poetry and then spends the down time writing poetry and selling it, would you have the same objections about it not benefiting the group? What if the return was higher than what the crafter would have gotten for crafting magic items?
Edit: Typo
Mist, as I said just above. If you want to profit from servicing the needs of the party, be prepared for having the same done to you. You need or want it? Fine, we'll trade. You give me magic items at cost and I'll heal you. You charge me, I'll charge you.
Deal?
I think the way to prevent this is to when someone takes a crafting feat and uses items for other players decide how much they can charge extra while they can still change the feat when leveling up and if the caster doesn't think they get enough money out of it they can choose another feat. It depends on what the group is okay with.
It could be different if someone wanted to say if it was an insignificant cost like buy me a round of ale then it would be less of a jerk move.
In your group I would simply not take crafting because your party obviously prefers to pay full price for what happens to be available in town.
Ugh, not at all. My party prefers to work together and benefit each other for the better good of all.
My party realizes that having better magic items makes us more proficient and so we win more battles and get more loot.
Everyone benefits.
Including the magic item crafter.
Get it?
Charging party members for crafting items is directly comparable to charging party members for heal spells, buffs or even charging a party member to take a hit for them.
It's totally jerk behavior.
If someone in my party pulled something like this, they would immediately be kicked out, or else they would find themselves being charged for every single thing my character did that they benefitted from. Need heals? Fine, five GP per hit point. Need buff? No problem, 50gp x buff level squared, or you're on your own.
I think the moral of the story is to bring this up before taking the feat. If I were in your group and took the feat, I would charge my 50gp per day (roughly 5%). Then once you started charging me for heals, I would start charging for all my spells as well. Of course as soon as I found out that it upset you that I was charging, I would ask to retrain the feat. I'm not going to be a crafting slave.
Since you put it that way, as a correctional officer, I had taken part in several actions - none involving axes, but other weapons were present - alongside coworkers that did help me with a move. It was pretty clear that they expected compensation, and I wouldn't have even considered not offering it.im a big guy, so everyone uses me to move. i tell them there better be an all you can eat pizza and beer buffet at the end of this move or else.Out of curiosity, would you still ask that of somebody who stood between you and an axe-wielding maniac while you were helpless, suffering grievous wounds in order to save your life?
As a corrections deputy I agree with HappyDaze. Defending a friend from a weapon wielding maniac is expected, and if they didn't, and I survived the attack, I would take them outside and beat the living hell out of them.
Asking them to help me move, damn straight I make sure they are compensated, usually with beer and pizza.
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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@ Adamantine Dragon
*shrug* Fine, I won't craft for you.
When you're no longer contributing to the party effectively (because the rest of the group paid %55 of X and you paid full X) or when I'm doing your work for you (because I can afford Y, as I paid 50% for my stuff and spent the rest of the gold on items/cohorts that do your job as well, since I paid 50% of x for their stuff) then come talk to me.
Do you grumble to the guy who took skill focus (shipwright) in a desert campaign? Or do you lament when the fighter in the group, with no social skills, drops gold on a headband of charisma? They're all spending resources that aren't 'combat related'?
The crafter (especially a wizard crafter) is not just consuming resources in gold. He's consuming resources in time as well. Time that could be used on other things. Time also isn't renewable like spells or healing.
If you start charging me for in adventure things, I'm going to have a scroll of teleport ready so when I'm hurt and wounded, and you're crying that I charged you for a non-renewable resource, I'm teleporting home to heal and work on my leisure. When I hire a group to go with me back to the site, I'll make sure to include a cleric on the payroll to handle the speak with dead issues with your body.
I'm not going to be a crafting slave.
Sure, and I'm not going to be a healbot. Nor am I going to throw my body in front of your greedy face to protect you from harm just for fun.
None of the party are slaves. You took a feat, and because you took a feat you feel entitled to more loot than the party.
That's the bottom line.
You're playing a merchant mercenary, not a team player.
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Heh... as I said, you try this in my party and you'll be paying for your heals.
Great, so nobody takes the crafting feats and you all pay 45% more than you would have if you knew how to be reasonable.
This is a fair punishment for being bad at math, in my opinion.
One clarification. If I were playing in a party of self-centered mercenaries who clearly were in it for the loot then this sort of thing would be fine.
I was responding under the assumption that the party in question was a mostly good aligned party of adventurers.
Sure, I'd totally expect the chaotic evil crafter to charge a fee. But I'd have my own agenda in that party.
One clarification. If I were playing in a party of self-centered mercenaries who clearly were in it for the loot then this sort of thing would be fine.
I was responding under the assumption that the party in question was a mostly good aligned party of adventurers.
Ah, so if the crafter is a LN follower of Abadar like the OP, you're fine with it.
Good to know.
Heh... as I said, you try this in my party and you'll be paying for your heals.Great, so nobody takes the crafting feats and you all pay 45% more than you would have if you knew how to be reasonable.
This is a fair punishment for being bad at math, in my opinion.
There is a reason these feats are banned from PFS play.
Since most GMs follow wealth by level guidelines anyway, you're assuming that they won't adjust based on your magic item creation. Most will, meaning the whole "math" thing is a totally bogus argument. No GM I know will allow magic item creation feats to unbalance your party. So these supposed benefits you are all talking about are mostly illusionary anyway. All that really happens is your crafter gets a bit more loot than the rest of the party for taking a non-combat feat.
That's all.
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Not charging for crafting is too metagaming for me. Nobody does things without benefit of some sort, if a crafting wizard is making something for free, where is his incentive? He is actually working against his own self interest for somebody else's self interest. A state know as slavery. Why would a person volunteer to be a crafting slave?
Not helping your companion in combat is role abandonment. The wizard comes along on adventures to lend arcane support, not to make items. The cleric comes along to protect the party by buffs, heals and combat. If he starts charging for in combat healing, then lower his share of party loot by an equal amount. Its the reason why he is on the adventure, and the reason for his share. If he abandons his job he abandons his share. Crafting is NOT the reason why casters go on adventure. You don't suddenly stop and go "hey, I need a magic sword to kill this guy make one for me". The group doesn't "own" all of the fruits of labor that each member creates. What a wizard chooses to do with his downtime is up to him. If you decide to not buy for a discount on matter of principle, or start charging for services that should be covered by your party share, then the crafter is perfectly justified for completely cutting you off from his services.
Mist, as I said just above. If you want to profit from servicing the needs of the party, be prepared for having the same done to you. You need or want it? Fine, we'll trade. You give me magic items at cost and I'll heal you. You charge me, I'll charge you.
Deal?
And if the crafter is the healer?
Also, I am interested in the answers to the questions that I posed above:
If the crafter, instead of the crafting feat takes skill focus craft poetry and then spends the down time writing poetry and selling it, would you have the same objections about it not benefiting the group? What if the return was higher than what the crafter would have gotten for crafting magic items?
One clarification. If I were playing in a party of self-centered mercenaries who clearly were in it for the loot then this sort of thing would be fine.
I was responding under the assumption that the party in question was a mostly good aligned party of adventurers.
Ah, so if the crafter is a LN follower of Abadar like the OP, you're fine with it.
Good to know.
Heh, yeah, good point I suppose. I got into the larger context of the argument instead of just the OPs post.
And "good with it" isn't correct. The correct interpretation of my reaction to the LN crafter of Abadar is "I'll figure out how to exploit your needs too buddy." Fun times.
Honestly, I think it really depends on how downtime is treated in your particular game.
If downtime is really just handwaved, and the other players really don't do anything during it, than I would say that you probably shouldn't be charging the fee.
Now if out of combat downtime plays an important role in your game, where every character does things (usually of a personal nature), then a small fee is fine. If your Rogue gets to spend his free time creating his own guild, and the Fighter is running his own bar, the Cleric is building a church, and the Cavalier is partaking in tournaments, while you are spending a huge amount of time working on their gear then a small fee is more than reasonable.
So it comes down to this:
-If it is a combat heavy game without much RP during downtime, don't charge.
-If downtime is an important part to your group (especially for individual enterprises), then charging a fee is fine.
Another way to look at it: Lets say item is normally 2000gp. it takes 1000gp to create. Crafter adds 10% to cost so its now 1100gp. One guy increases his charecter wealth by 900gp by not having to pay full price, while the other char increases his weath by 100gp, by doing all the work.I don't see a problem with charging for crafting.
It does not harm the group to provide items at discount prices... It helps the party. Even if it only helps the party 90% instead of 100%.
And helps the party crafter more than 100%. Not only will he benefit from having a tougher, faster fighter. He'll have more money to make him a better more capable caster plus even more money to make him even better than that. And keep in mind this is not jsut oen person we're talking about. Let's multiply that number of yours by three, one for each other member, now the wizard is up by 300 gold. And of course he's not charging himself so he's benefiting personally around 130% while the group is down 90% apiece.
What did you think the caster wasn't going to use those eats for himself as well? That he was only charging one person this whole time?
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Ugh, not at all. My party prefers to work together and benefit each other for the better good of all.
My party realizes that having better magic items makes us more proficient and so we win more battles and get more loot.
Everyone benefits.
Including the magic item crafter.
Get it?
I'm glad it is working out for your group. It is the way I would choose to operate as well, but the rest of my group prefer the charging approach so that is what we use.
As a matter of interest, does your crafter give priority to crafting item for his personal benefit or are the needs of the group paramount?
And when the crafter is spending 8 days of his down time crafting stuff for other people, are the rest of the group also spending time trying to benefit the group? I'd be interested in knowing what sort of stuff you do, as I can get my character to do similar things in the hope of persuading the crafter to waive some of his fee.
Oh, also when a fighter buys a sword at half price from a crafter, he doubled his investment. The fighters wealth went up. How much did the casters wealth go up for his time? Nothing? If the wizard is making stuff for the party, the parties investment is doubling, but the wizard is making NOTHING. If this continues then he will be FAR behind the party in wealth before long. By charging a fee he at least doesn't get too far behind. By all rights if he doesn't make anything for himself or for selling he should be charging .75 of retail just to stay even with the rest of the party.
Amethal, in every case since starting playing Pathfinder, our player characters with crafting skills consider their role to be pretty much the same as a buffer or healer. They have abilities to help the party, and they do so without charging the party.
In fact my potion crafting witch makes potions every night using whatever he has as resources. He gives the potions to whomever needs them.
In fact he has spent much of his share of the loot on potion making that the party benefits from.
He sees it as his job. He enjoys providing a valuable service to the party that is appreciated. And he's not even good.
I'm not going to be a crafting slave.Sure, and I'm not going to be a healbot. Nor am I going to throw my body in front of your greedy face to protect you from harm just for fun.
None of the party are slaves. You took a feat, and because you took a feat you feel entitled to more loot than the party.
That's the bottom line.
You're playing a merchant mercenary, not a team player.
My crafter came into the group with a previous profession of of item crafting for the town of Restov. His charecter concept is that of a merchant who wanted to adventure.
When you divide the loot, do you calculate out cost and divide evenly? Or, do you do it like our party does and items that can help a player out is given directly to the player first, then the rest of the loot is divided and sold. We play it the latter and I can tell you right here that the armored people get a disproportional amount of loot distribution as opposed to us squishy casters.
"Oh a +2 amulet of Natural armor? I dont have an amulet, but, here you take that since you're front-line and I'll take your +1 instead."
It is not exploiting the party to craft them cheap items. And getting a little something in return.
Hmmm, another question for the free crafting crowd.
What if the crafter only used the feat for themselves and spent the rest of their downtime researching either new spells or prayers. Would you be OK with that?
Here's the bottom line. Those of you who are turning crafting into a profit stream are treating your adventuring party as a monetary resource.
That's fine so long as you are willing to be treated that way yourself.
You can rationalize your profiteering however you like. It's profiteering pure and simple.
Your ten percent benefit from making a magic sword for the fighter comes when the fighter uses that sword to kill the ogre and you get a share of his stuff.
Another way to look at it: Lets say item is normally 2000gp. it takes 1000gp to create. Crafter adds 10% to cost so its now 1100gp. One guy increases his charecter wealth by 900gp by not having to pay full price, while the other char increases his weath by 100gp, by doing all the work.I don't see a problem with charging for crafting.
It does not harm the group to provide items at discount prices... It helps the party. Even if it only helps the party 90% instead of 100%.
And helps the party crafter more than 100%. Not only will he benefit from having a tougher, faster fighter. He'll have more money to make him a better more capable caster plus even more money to make him even better than that. And keep in mind this is not jsut oen person we're talking about. Let's multiply that number of yours by three, one for each other member, now the wizard is up by 300 gold. And of course he's not charging himself so he's benefiting personally around 130% while the group is down 90% apiece.
What did you think the caster wasn't going to use those eats for himself as well? That he was only charging one person this whole time?
The group is actually UP a collective 270% (360% for our 5 member party) not DOWN 90% like you mentioned. And, I'm up only 130%. Also, considering I could be working on my consignments for greater profit, the party is getting a great deal. Also, see my post about disproportionate loot distribution and my char concept.
Hmmm, another question for the free crafting crowd.
What if the crafter only used the feat for themselves and spent the rest of their downtime researching either new spells or prayers. Would you be OK with that?
More than ok. Researching new spells is a great way to benefit the group. Heck I'd even be willing to chip in money to help cover the costs if its a particularly useful spell to the group. I'd do so voluntarily without being "taxed".
It's a question of attitude. IF the wizard walked up to one of my characters and said.
"Hey I'm researching the creation of a brand new spell that will make the party uber. If I get 300 gold from each of you I can do it."
I'd go "Sweet have 600."
But if he went.
"I've created this new spell that will make the part uber. However due to the costs of creation and the time it took away from doing other things I must charge 400 gold a piece. This includes compensation for my time to research th spell."
I'd go "Pass."
Hmmm, another question for the free crafting crowd.
What if the crafter only used the feat for themselves and spent the rest of their downtime researching either new spells or prayers. Would you be OK with that?
Yes. Having new spells benefits the party.
I have to say, I agree with Adamantine Dragon, it is really profiteering. If I had a group of dudes around me who my life depends upon, I would do my utmost to make them the meanest mamajammas around. I get more out of it and they get more out of it.
It also violates a social norm that exists between most players. It is bad from a meta-game standpoint and not really that smart from a character standpoint.
Sigh, I failed my will save again.
Here's the bottom line. Those of you who are turning crafting into a profit stream are treating your adventuring party as a monetary resource.
That's fine so long as you are willing to be treated that way yourself.
You can rationalize your profiteering however you like. It's profiteering pure and simple.
Your ten percent benefit from making a magic sword for the fighter comes when the fighter uses that sword to kill the ogre and you get a share of his stuff.
The opposite argument would be something like this:
Here's the bottom line. Those of you who are turning crafting into a forced free crafting stream are treating your adventuring party crafter as a slave.
That's fine so long as you are willing to be treated that way yourself.
You can rationalize your slaving however you like. It's slaving pure and simple.
Your benefit from paying a small fee for the making of a better magic sword for the fighter comes when the fighter uses that sword to kill the ogre and you get a share of his stuff.
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Amethal, in every case since starting playing Pathfinder, our player characters with crafting skills consider their role to be pretty much the same as a buffer or healer. They have abilities to help the party, and they do so without charging the party.
In fact my potion crafting witch makes potions every night using whatever he has as resources. He gives the potions to whomever needs them.
In fact he has spent much of his share of the loot on potion making that the party benefits from.
He sees it as his job. He enjoys providing a valuable service to the party that is appreciated. And he's not even good.
Now thats what I call crafting slave. If you are spending your own portion of the loot on potions the rest of the party uses, you are seriously getting hosed on the deal. At least create a party fund that everyone chips in for you can use to create potions for party use. We do that for the wands that I create for general party use.
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While all these analogies are fun let's look at it another more relevant way.
By choosing crafting feats you take on the unspoken responsibility of spending downtime to help the group build stuff that would normally be unavailable to them because of costs or circumstances. Now while I agree the fee is small and reasonable you have to understand this is an advantage being gained by you you would otherwise not gain were the aprty pay full price.
Forget the analogies it's being exploitative to your party members and in the end it harms you as well as the group. Consider this: by crafting an item rather than having them pay for it you allow the group to take advantage of the half cost advantage. By raising this price you remove some that advantage purely for a personal advantage gained for yourself. If you count that the money they would otherwise have had would have likely gone towards more stuff to make the party as a whole better rather than to the benefit of one character.
This is one of those unspoken rules that simply go unsaid like:
1. The rest of the group doesn't kill your character and take his stuff.
I'm afraid this is not (as a lot of post before can demostrate).
There are no unspoke responsabilities, and just thinking that there are is the way to create a mess since at some point some guy will "broke" a rule he din't even know exsistig in the first place.
People talk, don't assume there are invisible rules in their head.
Since we're talking in metagame terms let's just say that i don't have the minum advantage by it since:
1-I don't get paid
2-I lose time
3-You can say that the party is more strong, but METAGAMING-SPEAKING it's not true since the gm will adjust the cr to the power of the party
4-I could get other talent that woul boost my personal power (which also boost the party power using a certain logic)
And if we are talking in game i don't think anyone will have problem with it.
Since i'm here i'll add my additional 2 cents to what i've already said.
1-My pg is married, i'm accutally married with the png witch we met in one of the very fist session (the one who ask you the components for a potions), we don't have baby but i plan to have at least a couple.
Since kingmaker is a long-term campaign i like the idea of "settling" my pg, also i spent time and money courting the witch.
2-While half of the party just let the day pass by i and another guy are creating a net of commercial activity that benefit mostly the kingdom.
So yes, time has a value for me.
@Adamantine Dragon: I think that in the whole thread at least 5 people posted logical argoument that show that this is not the case, and i still have to see a real reply.
I want to add that i could just say "ok", i'm a conjurer-teleportation wizard i can escape basically any time i want and if the fighter don't want to take the monster i can just leave (leaving them here), i will not say that i don't need cure at all but i have very low hp so it's often dead or alive, the other rare time i can just buy a potion.
But the party need my buff, my debuff, my cc, my travel spell and even the situational spell and i assure you that if everybody make pay all the party members for any services i'll be rich in seconds without crafting anything, if i really wanted i could out-jerk anyone in the party (of course is not a good thing :p ).
Now as someone said before, and i think is a valid point of view, one have to reward sacrifying something personal for the group or you will end up with people that think tha evil is the best alligment ever and all good guy are idiots, and of course you'll be discouraging doing extra-thing for the party.
Since nobody force me to be a crafter (the mage is one of the best party member even without craft feat, and is one of the class that need less equipment ever) i can just not take the feat, make myself more powerfull (and usefull to the "Party") with other feat and have all the free time of the world, and maybe make some money with the free-scroll creating feat that i get. And the party as usual will pay items at full cost and nobody will have anything to say since this is the way most mage are.
This is were your logic lead. Plus is a lot like "do what i say or you are not my frien" which i think is really childish.
And all of this don't mean in the slightest that a party should not cooperate. But in real life, and even in pathfinder a real friend won't ever ask me to do something like these for free.
Just to add some real life experience i'm a web-designer and i can't count a day without someone asking me to "do a little web design for my project", of course for free. Well, i don't like it, i found it to be a lack of respect for my work.
End of the wall of text. This thread became a very interesting discussion, at least for me, so again thanks to all for your opinions and sorry for the grammatical error, which i'm sure, my post are full :)
Just to let you know i still stick to my previous decision.
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Here's the bottom line. Those of you who are turning crafting into a profit stream are treating your adventuring party as a monetary resource.
That's fine so long as you are willing to be treated that way yourself.
You can rationalize your profiteering however you like. It's profiteering pure and simple.
Your ten percent benefit from making a magic sword for the fighter comes when the fighter uses that sword to kill the ogre and you get a share of his stuff.
I think the problem here is if one party member is spending a lot of time and effort to benefit the party (i.e. by crafting items) but the others aren't (in some cases because they can't).
Assuming the crafter holds his own during adventuring, that can lead to resentment from the character as it seems like he is being exploited - doing 100% of the work for 25% of the gain. Unless the character is a saint, it seems a recipe for in-character problems.
You can metagame it, like you probably need to metagame why a disparate bunch of reprobates are even adventuring together in the first place, but I don't think it is fair to refer to those who don't as profiteering.
Hmmm, another question for the free crafting crowd.
What if the crafter only used the feat for themselves and spent the rest of their downtime researching either new spells or prayers. Would you be OK with that?
More than ok. Researching new spells is a great way to benefit the group. Heck I'd even be willing to chip in money to help cover the costs if its a particularly useful spell to the group. I'd do so voluntarily without being "taxed".
It's a question of attitude.
I agree that it is a question of attitude on both sides. As I mentioned above, in the groups that I have played in, the person getting the newly crafted magic item usually throws in an appreciation fee to the crafter.
To play off of your example above, how would you react to:
"Hey, I really need to get this sword improved, as I can't afford a quiver of various magical special substance weapons. I know it costs X to do so, so here is X gold. I know it will take you a month to craft it, so I will goof off, drink ale and chase interesting individuals for fun. Could you let me know when you are done? Thanks."
Hmmm, another question for the free crafting crowd.
What if the crafter only used the feat for themselves and spent the rest of their downtime researching either new spells or prayers. Would you be OK with that?
More than ok. Researching new spells is a great way to benefit the group. Heck I'd even be willing to chip in money to help cover the costs if its a particularly useful spell to the group. I'd do so voluntarily without being "taxed".
It's a question of attitude. IF the wizard walked up to one of my characters and said.
"Hey I'm researching the creation of a brand new spell that will make the party uber. If I get 300 gold from each of you I can do it."
I'd go "Sweet have 600."
But if he went.
"I've created this new spell that will make the part uber. However due to the costs of creation and the time it took away from doing other things I must charge 400 gold a piece. This includes compensation for my time to research th spell."
I'd go "Pass."
This is a completely different scenario than the crafting for a fee. When you craft for a char, you create an item that is the sole possesion of the party member... When you learn a spell, you now are the sole owner of that spell, and it should come from your own funds.
-Now I mention I charge half price for the scroll if its not in my spell book to create an item, because its not usually a spell I would learn, but since I will now have that spell forever, I don't charge full price for that spell, just half cost of learning a spell I would never have learned in the first place.
More often than not I come out negative on an item I create when I need to learn the spell first too.
PC1: Yep guys I think its time to fire the crafter...
Crafter: But why?
PC2: Well because this other guy is way better in combat because he didn't study to be a merchant.
Crafter: But you are saving money!
PC1: Yes, and I might not have got hit over the head by that ogre had you cast more powerful spells.
PC2: Aufwiedersehen!
Edit:
Crafter: But I can make better stuff! So your head doesn't get cracked.
PC1: I'm listening.
Crafter: And I'll only charge 10% so that you won't get killed!
PC2: So we're out here saving the world and you are trying to make a buck.... yeah, we are going with the other guy. Good luck setting up shop, we have adventuring to do!
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I hate to do this, but I have to look at the example of World of Warcraft. Even if you went out and got the mats yourself, unless it is something really small an mundane, you always tip the crafter. And that is a situation where it takes you seconds to actually create the items, not days and weeks.
Now, I know that most high level crafters have spent 1000s of their own gold to get to that level, so it is a little different, but the Mage in this case did spend some of their limited amount of Feats to be able to make that item. They should get a little extra.
The only other way I can see around this would be similar to what my campaign does with loot. There are 5 people in the campaign. All loot is divided 7 ways. 1 for each person, 1 for the maintenance of the base they have, and 1 for misc group expenses like magic items and Raise Deads.
Seems to work for them.
1-My pg is married, i'm accutally married with the png witch we met in one of the very fist session (the one who ask you the components for a potions), we don't have baby but i plan to have at least a couple.Since kingmaker is a long-term campaign i like the idea of "settling" my pg, also i spent time and money courting the witch.
2-While half of the party just let the day pass by i and another guy are creating a net of commercial activity that benefit mostly the kingdom.
So yes, time has a value for me.
You have a family to provide for and spending time crafting is time away from your wife and child. I say aside from the crafting that you'll do for yourself (hopefully minimal) you should, for now, only craft each member of your group one item and then on the understanding that they make a healthy contribution to your child's college savings account (and thank Adabar for the benefits of compound interest). If they can't come up with the cash to contribute then they can spend an equal amount of time playing diaperbot for you at home (hopefully the GM will really make them role play it out, I know I would).
wow... a +1 is really worth an extra 20% wealth? what if i take a voluntary DC penalty of -10? could i get and extra 200% wealth?item crafting is the most powerful feat in the game hands downNO TOO WEAK YOU NEED MORE COMPENSATION LIKE 20% CHARACTER WEALTH FOR TAKING IT ZOMG ITS A WHOLE FEAT YOU COULD SPEND ON +1 DC!!!!111111
I guess I forgot my sarcasm tag...
Actually he wants 20% character wealth in top of having 100% optimized equipment in campaigns like KM.
You can always sell everything you have for 50% and craft the equipment you want for that level for 50%. All you need is time. And you have that in KM.
That was my point.
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Here's basically where the line is drawn:
When the party goes out adventuring, everyone is expected to contribute more or less equally. When they get back, everyone gets to do what they want to.
As long as the wizard isn't a shuddering wreck of a character for burning a feat on crafting, there is no reason he should be expected to use his off time working for the party.
So, really, the argument is "How are you going to convince me that making something for you is a better investment for me and for the party than making something for myself?"
Basically, the wizard can improve on his own gear, or that of his party. Either way, the party is getting stronger. But if the wizard isn't making items for himself, then he is sacrificing his survivability or his ability to contribute in order to help someone else's survivability or ability to contribute.
A small tip, a gratuity, can go a long way to convince the wizard.
An adventuring party is much like a job. If someone wants you to come in and work on your day off, you're expecting to get that overtime pay.
Consider that if a wizard was only able to craft his own gear, the effective doubling of wealth would make the feat completely worthwhile as a combat feat.