Ah so the wizard who chose that feat should get paid for it but not anyone else who chose their feats- because they get paid for /their/ feats out of party loot. Right.
Doesn't fly. Not for me. Your feat isn't any more special than any other feat. If I get paid for mine by looting, then so do you. You don't get some special exception "loot party members" when you take a crafting feat.
As for SKR: I flatly disagree with what he said.
But, as what he said is the rules, I'll go with it for the purposes of this discussion.
The assumption is that the wizard is still using most of his or her time for himself. No one has suggested forcing a wizard to take feats and use them exclusively for someone else. The wizard crafts for himself before anyone else, and is presuably using far more of his wealth to craft than he is for everyone else. If the DM is giving you so much time off that the crafter gets to literally double everyone else's cash too then .. well, the DM needs to stop doing that. (under SKR's interpretation)
Limiting down time so that the wizard can still make things for others but predominantly makes things for himself largely solves the issue.
The crafter is geting paid by making what he wants, when he wants it. He's gettin paid by the group, but their greater effectiveness in battle (and out, depending on what it is being made) that allows the group to proceed with better ability and efficiency towards whatever goal it is they have. They do not also get to double dip by swiping off the top from the other players. Not unless they get to double dip and charge him for the bother of using their feats and abilities for the group, too.
-S
I just think it's awesome that a Wizard Crafter can only charge X to the general public, but is charging X+10% to fellow party members.
The only way the Wizard can really profiteer by RAW is by price gouging party members (who aren't subject to RAW), and he does that by putting them between a rock and a hard place then acting like it's a favour to them.
| 4 people marked this as a favorite. |
This comes up so often, and every time it's the same tired arguments:
Any caster foolish enough to take a crafting feat is beholden to become the party craft b****.
Or, If crafters charge for crafting, they should pay for heals.
The difference between crafting and healing is GP doesn't fall from the Clerics *** every time he heals. Crafting, on the other hand, generates wealth. I'll say it again just to make sure every one heard it;
CRAFTING GENERATES WEALTH!
If PCs demand free crafting, then they are STEALING wealth from their teammates.
Let's look at an example:
Fred always gives Wally a fair share of loot they find adventuring, but this time he demands all the loot.
Next, look at Cindy the Cleric and Biff the Barbarian. Each have 1500gp. Biff wants Cindy to craft him a new 2000gp axe. Cindy charges Biff 1500gp (that's 25% less than market). She spends 1000gp on supplies and pockets the rest. Now, Biff has a 2000 gp axe, and Cindy has 2000gp. Net Profit: Cindy, 500gp. Biff, 500gp.
Because they are a party and share the loot they get, they also share the wealth generated by Cindy's feat.
Charging for crafting is also beneficial from a meta-game perspective.
Biff and Cindy are both exactly 500gp over WBL, quite easily for the GM to fix, just reduce the next few treasures by a total or 1,000gp. Since Biff and Cindy split everything evenly, this should work just fine. Since some wealth is used up via consumables and lost to selling loot, the GM might not have to adjust at all.
Fred, however, is 1,500gp over his WBL and Wally is exactly at WBL. This is not easily adjusted unless Wally gets a larger share of treasure somewhere down the line to make up for the discrepancy. Normally, a GM could give Wally exactly the treasure he wants and make Fred sell his loot for half, but since Wally is Fred's b****, Fred already gets all his gear for half from Wally. What's more, Wally invested his feats partly so he can have access to any item he wants, giving him custom gear devalues his feats. Not an easy solution to this one.
BUT! you cry, Wally and Cindy could use their money to craft for themselves. Them Wally would have 3000gp worth of gear (same as Fred) and Cindy would have 4000gp (2000gp more than Biff.)
But, according to the FAQ, crafters count gear they have crafted themselves at Cost, rather than Price. So, even if Wally and Cindy craft for themselves, Wally still has 1,500gp worth of stuff and Cindy, 2,000gp.
The intent of crafting feats, as expressed in the FAQ, is to increase the crafter's wealth. By making items at cost, this neutralizes this advantage.
Clearly, not only should crafters charge their party members for crafting, they should charge them 25%. Any less, and it's the party who is being greedy.
I just think it's awesome that a Wizard Crafter can only charge X to the general public, but is charging X+10% to fellow party members.
The only way the Wizard can really profiteer by RAW is by price gouging party members (who aren't subject to RAW), and he does that by putting them between a rock and a hard place then acting like it's a favour to them.
But, if the party pays the Wizard less than market price, that's against RAW. So, I guess the only way to avoid this is to disallow crafters from selling to the party entirely.
If the caster makes a 2k item for 1k he's credited for 1k by SKR.
Dude who he crafted for gets credited 2k even if it was made by the crafter.
So crafter dude has 2k and warrior gets 2k. crafter dude can craft 4k for himself but when he does that for the warrior:
Crafter spend 2 k for 4k but is credited only 2k.
Warrior had 2k has 4k and is credited 4k.
so crafter is still ahead.
What did warrior get? he got to pick what he wanted.
What does crafter get if it tries to take 10%? Warrior beating him to a bloody pulp. or leaving him behind. Or "accidentally" letting that mook get by in the next combat. Or just generally being an unhappy party mate at one guy taking blatant advantage of the other.
Crafter is already getting advantage of his feat. He should not also take advantage of his *comrades*.
Friends.
group mates.
Party mates.
Those dudes he trusts enough to go delve dungeons with. The guys he trusts not to slit his throat while he sleeps- and who in turn trust him in turn.
CC: "hey Freddy Fighter, thanks so much for getting that orc today.. it was coming right for me, and then BAM there you were.. cleaved it right in half! that was awesome, thank you.
FF: "hey no problem Cindy Crafter. Say though, I have some gold.. would you mind making me a better sword? We could kill orcs alot faster with alot less risk and I'll put up all the cash for it.. do you mind?"
CC:"no I don't mind at all- but I need an extra 10%. Gotta have the money to keep this fancy hair do, yanno"
FF:"uhh. an extra 10%? but we're buddies. friends.. i just saved your life. I'll use the new one to save your life too."
CC:"sorry. saving my life is nice and all, but bzns is bzns."
two days later:
NPC: We gather here today to mourn the loss of Cindy Crafter.
*que obligatory sobbing here*
Roddy Rogue: Hey Freddy, what happened to Cindy?
FF: Oh well, you know.. she charged me 10% for that sword earlier.. but when that orc was charging her I told her it'd cost her 20gp for me to intervene and she told me no.
or
FF: "well she wanted a 10% sur charge and I didn't have it, and the sword I had just couldn't cut it.
or
FF: "dunno, I left her at the Dancing Lion tavern when she tried to rob me earlier after I saved her arse. Pity about those orcs. Guess she thought she could take them on alone. tsk tsk.
D&D is cooperative. When you try to take advantage of your fellow players, bad things happen. Just say no to swiping 10% off the top. Be content to help your fellow player, knowing that whatever you do for them will be used to *save your arse* in the future. cuz yanno, thats what fighters, and barbarians, and rogues do. They keep the crap off the casters so they can do their thing too.
-S
Eh, if I ever play in a group that isn't ok with me giving a discount, they will get the full price or nothing route.
In terms of time, my character is better off making things for himself.
In terms of party, having a more powerful wizard is good for the party.
In terms of wealth, my character is better off making things for himself, you need to give him a reason to make things for other people.
I can just make things for myself to make the party better. I can make things for myself to make my character wealthier in term of item value (you can't get ahead by liquidating)
Why do I need to make things for other members? I make the party better by being more powerful, its the same thing isnt it?
Not quite. There is only so much you can do in a round, and only so many angles you can have covered. This is the reason to craft for the party, but it doesn't make much sense to craft for free.
This doesn't have to be a zero sum game. I get a 10 percent crafting cut. For a 10k retail item this 1k That 1k can go towards making my character more powerful, while the 40 percent discount my good friend got made him more powerful compared to having buy his gear retail. Heck, he came out way ahead of me in wealth, 4k in unearned wealth vs 1k. I take this wealth and make an item worth 2k, that I use for myself. Thanks to the fighter wanting an item, we have increased 2 party members wealth by a decent amount. That is 4k and 2k item wealth that wouldn't otherwise be there. Compare that to the fighter getting a 5k discount and the wizard getting nothing. Hey, party wealth went up only 5k, and the wizard got nothing.
When you pay a commission to a crafting party member, you make that wealth go further. Making your wealth go further, and items the party actually wants opposes to the crap you are given/randomly generated can only be a good thing.
Wow this keeps going. Just my two cents..every group I've been in for a long time assumes that each member helps the other, charging is just bad form. Roleplaying and what not you could make the argument that it's what your character would do but heck these are people who risks their lives with you, cover your back and heals your wounds...most would call that a family. Most groups I've been in would have seen your wizard out the door. But heck I made a bard in one campaign that charged for heals...wow was he the most hated npc of all time :)
But, if the party pays the Wizard less than market price, that's against RAW. So, I guess the only way to avoid this is to disallow crafters from selling to the party entirely.
No it isn't.
Doesn't say that anywhere.
RAW talks about 'Market' which is a factor of NPC interaction. The players are not bound by these prices amongst themselves. The only factor that is true on both sides of the equation is the creation cost.
In fact the Wizard can give the item away for FREE if he wanted, no worries!
But the only way for him to MAKE cold hard cash in the game is by charging his fellow players a PREMIUM, which is something he can't do anywhere else.
Therefore he makes more profit off guging his team than he does of any other random stranger.
I also like how people keep saying '10%' but then the 10% is based off the retail price... so actually they are making more than 10% of cost. Closer to 15%.
Its not a zero sum game even when you don't steal money to craft the item
because they become more powerful when you craft for them which makes You and the Group more powerful in return. Trying to get them to pay you for it on top of it, is just trying to rob them for what you should want to do anyway to help the group.
Again: if the rogue demanded payment to unlock that door, that chest, or to remove that trap- is that reasonable?
if the cleric charged for that Heal spell or charged you 10% extra on that resurrection?
The answer is just simply no. Its not. its not right for them and its not right for the crafter. Just say no to stealing from your own team.
-S
... I truly hope you found a new group. Those guys sound like a bunch of jerks, who I wouldn't want to game with. :\ ...
Yes, I did. Much better. But alot of these posters sound just like those tools.
My current group. The archer was talking about making masterwork barding for my pony. Is that anywhere neat the 1/2 cost of the +2 weapon enchantment he wants? No, but it's something he's going to do in his down time to help me out. The gunslinger is going to make us alchemical fireworks. Did I want those? Not really, but he's trying to find something he can return the favor with in leisure time. The rogue is going to take all the party loot to try and get a better price by searching out end customers rather than just half price with the merchant. That is probably a good deal for me. Since I dumped charisma. The paladin managed to keep me and the rogue out of jail for getting publicly drunk and heckling the local cops. This is a fair give and take on our leisure time out side of the standard adventure. I feel no need to charge them anything extra assuming I have time to make my stuff also.
But look through the early mid part of the thread. Many of these posters are explicitly stating they won't do anything for the wizard. I protected him in combat. That's it end of story.
... No one's suggesting folks force feats on others. No one is suggesting forced crafting...
I agree you are not. But read through it. Several very definitely are saying that.
... not as one player trying to one up the rest of them financially by swiping their gold and then trying to act like he's doing them a favor ... For some reason folks here think that its perfectly acceptable for someone to charge for using his feats for the groupl, while its not acceptable for others to do so. I have no idea why....
I see avery clear difference between acting like a team professionally while on the job adventuring and giving up my leisure time for no gain. I don't think some of you see that difference. I do not see donating my liesure time to make the barbarian a +2 breastplate as supporting the team if he does not also donate his freee time with something to help me. If he is not also donating his liesure team the team cooperation is only going 1 way. Away from me. So he is taking advantage of me.
... Why should the wealth flow one direction?
I agree, why should the wealth and leisure time flow in one direction, away from me? If I'm making a magic item for you, your wealth goes up. I do not get to make one for me, mine does not. I lost out on time and effective wealth.
In the last 10 years with several different groups, I have not been in one single campaign where we had all the time we wanted to make all the magic items we would like. We have always had to pay or do without. So why am I the one that has to do without?
if the cleric charged for that Heal spell or charged you 10% extra on that resurrection?-S
Make sure the cleric charges 11500gp for the spell component, as that represents the BASE cost of the raw materials that the other player is getting the benefit from. Cleric should be entitled to his 'compensation' too.
Should he also charge a labour cost for the casting?
dunno.. one guy said his group was glad to pay the theft just to get the wands.
Myself, I'd club him before I let him rob me like that.
EVery group is different. I've been gaming since '92 and I've never, ever, one time been asked to pay more than it cost for a party member to make the time. I've also never ever asked for more than something charged when I crafted..
Every group dynamic is different. What folks like, dislike, want and/or expect varies from group to group.
I wouldn't like it, or put up with it.. but clearly others have, can, and do.
Also: as I said before: if the group is out partying while you are crafting there is a party issue. You need to resolve that. If you are making items (for yourself or them really) they should be out doing things to further the party- even if that just entails hanging around making sure you aren't getting attacked while doing it. Now if yuo decide you want to go craft instead of going out and partying then thats your decision.
I don't advance the notion that crafting should be a penalty on a player. I do advance the notion though that they shouldn't be using it to steal from the other players.
AD was saying the same thing.
You have leisure time for everyone.
You have "group time" for everyone.
What you shouldn't ahve is "hey we're gonna go party while you all hang back and do hard work. Cya"
That has nothing to do with crafting though- and alot more with party members taking responsibility during group activities.
If someone is goofing off IC when there is work to be done to further the group, the Group needs to chat with that guy IC about it.
There's always things the group needs doing. When its group time, everyone contributes- even if all they do is sit and guard someone else. (like the rogue who's going to sell the items, or the guy who's crafting, or making sure the guy doin research at the library doesn't get mugged while his head is in a book)
-S
if the cleric charged for that Heal spell or charged you 10% extra on that resurrection?-S
Make sure the cleric charges 11500gp for the spell component, as that represents the BASE cost of the raw materials that the other player is getting the benefit from. Cleric should be entitled to his 'compensation' too.
Should he also charge a labour cost for the casting?
I said that earlier I think: that someone expecting spell casting should front the cost of any material components for it.
I've even gone so far as to buy scrolls for casters to learn before. If you want a wand done of an expensive spell, be prepared to pay out the nose for it.
And just in case I haven't been clear:
whoever wants an item crafted is the one paying the cost. Not the wizard. No one's suggesting the wizard should also have to pay the base cost. ;P
-S
I posted less than 24 hrs ago. I was going to add something like "oooh, this is gping to be a good 'un." I *can't* believe almost 500 posts in such a short time. A testament to the general level of investment (pardon the pun) on both sides of the free services/not free services divide. I thought Richard Leonhart succinctly capped this back on the first page. Can your character charge? By all means. Should your character charge: Hells yes if he (the CHARACTER) is profit motivated. Should the player allow his character to charge? Maybe not if the group has issues with "fairness" bleeding out of/into the game...
(puts feet up, raises a glass) here's to the next 500 or so! ;p
Haven't read last 9 pages, so I'm not up with how this has morphed beyond the OP. OPer: Charge 'em all you want, in the game that is... It does seem like it's an individual instance of RP... right or wrong it's in character....(casts protection from messageboard flames)
And just in case I haven't been clear:
whoever wants an item crafted is the one paying the cost. Not the wizard. No one's suggesting the wizard should also have to pay the base cost. ;P-S
Nah just that Craft McGouge is charging 11500 to the players for his 10000 base, so in this case the Cleric is doing the same :P
|
Because he spends it on better armour/weapon/stat enhancers/cure potions he pours down the neck of the dying caster who made him his shiny new sword when they got crit'd?
Or maybe the crafter did the same? Saving the meatshield?
Again how is the noncrafter making the party stronger with that 10% more. For sure the noncrafter is gonna buy up extra gear with the 40% he saved. Maybe the crafter then takes the money he "gained" from crafting for the party and now crafts wands of curing for multiple party members.
|
Teamwork is great and everything but 10% doesn't seem bad to me.
Just because you work together doesn't mean you don't charge people or even pay them differently.
When I was in the Marines we when went out on ops I would always take a cartoon of smokes and a roll of snuff. Why? I didn't use them but I knew a number of guys who did. If they ran out I would sell them some at a small profit for myself. I wasn't the only one either. Happens every day you pay more at the gas station than you would at the Grocery store.
You have with you a walking walmart of magic item constuction. Now you can go and pay the higher price from a guy in town, if there is one, and if he has what you need.
Or you can go to the source and pay less than what that guy charges.
Every group if different. Mine has no problem with the cost plus 10% I charge.
So out of curiosity when a crafter simply does not craft for you or when a caster chooses not to craft is he "robbing/gouging" you out of 50% of your WBL?
My WBL is modified regardless- its his that gets the break if you go by SKR's ruling.
But to more directly answer your question:
I guess that depends.
If I can keep an orc from killing the wizard, and I don't. Am I a jerk?
If the cleric could have healed you but didn't and you died, is he a jerk?
if.. well.. you get the idea.
If the crafter has the free time and I have the cash for the item and he just refuses not to craft for me- is that theft? No. But its a jerk move, and one that won't be forgotten. Needless to say, he won't be getting any favors from me.
And the jerk player can also expect not to get any favors from the rest of the group..
Its like this.
You are either part of the team.
or you aren't part of the team.
Your actions dictate which side of that fence you are on. If you are going to play a selfish character then expect the other characters to respond accordingly.
"but my character is.." .. a jerk. RP isn't an excuse to be a jerk, or a tool. Robbing your team of 10% because you decided to take a feat is just being a jerk. CAN you do it? Sure. CAN they make you wish you hadn't been a jerk? Absofreakinglutely.
They can also shrug and go along with it. Some folks do. Their decision.
But I wouldn't. If you don't act like part of the team, then you aren't part of the team.
-S
This is Not meant to sound like "my group is better than your group" or anything. its just sort of meant as a "here's where I'm coming from".
Alot of the posts in reply have been to the tune of "but the guys in my group never help so I charged them extra".
In every campaign I've ever been in, the group was put above any individual. This started with talking about what classes folks would play- to prevent role or class overlap and also to make sure no two folks were taking the same preferential weapon. Not a 'You can't!" but a "it goes more smoothly if everyone has their own thing".
It goes on towards loot. When X drops, the group looks at it and decides what role its best for. Lets say a ring of protection +2. You have three melee guys. The groupo may decide its best for the melee guys, so those guys would either roll for it or one (or two) of them would back out and say the other guy could have it. Or if one had a +1 and the other two had nothing, the +1 guy would bow out. Because the other two needed it more than him. The same is true for all loot. Folks discuss who it's best for, and if there are more than one who want it they discuss it and either they decide who gets it or dice are rolled. Whoever lost, gets dibs on the next one.
In all ways though its about the group. We want the group to get better, stronger, more powerful, more effective. Recently in our RotL campaign the wizard got a nice toy. He gave me the old one he'd been using- which was a great upgrade for me. He could have sold it, sure.. but he didn't. He made the decision to make me stronger- which made him and the group stronger for it.
That same wizard is also a crafter. He crafts for himself, but also for the group. He makes his scrolls and.. well heck I don't really know what all. thats between him and the DM mostly. He's crafted for other party members. We had to travel a long ways and something prevented us from just teleporting so he took advantage of that to do alot of crafting along the way. So far as I know, it never even occured to him to charge anyone- or for them to give him gold. Why? He wasn't increasing Remicus's WBL. He was making the fighter stronger. So he fights better. So the group would progress faster, more efficiently. And incidentally- so Remi would have an easier job of keeping the critters off of him, the wizard.
The party rogue asked me recently to make him some scrolls during this same period. I gave him my current spell list and told him sure, whatever. I didn't even ask which ones. He did the math, checked the time we had, and paid the costs. I could have made him one or a dozen- I really don't know. or care. I know that in the next combats though he was using alot of scrolls. At least presumably, some of them were ones I made for him. What'd he use them for? To make the group better, stronger, more efficient in combat.
When we get back to town we sell it all, split up the cash amongst us, and then go about doing.. whatever we're doing. We have some down time, some group time, etc. We do what needs doing, we take some time off, we get back to adventuring.
No one is really worried about "Zomg he has more stuff than me!" or anything. We're in it together, we're in it to win it. To save the world, to find out why whatever is happening, is happening, and how to stop it. Nickel and diming each other, our buddies and group mates, our comrades in arms to whom we owe each other our lives a multitude of times, just never even enters into it.
Everyone in the group is doing their part, even if that part is just to go with someone else to make sure they aren't ambushed alone.. even if its to guard the wizard while he's fixing up the fighter's sword incase something happens.
Thats really how our group works. I didn't make any of that up. Its not something I'm just saying here to prove my point- its how it *really happens* at the table when our RotL group meets.
the 10% swiping crew.... How do your groups work? Are your groups in it for the group? Is everyone as self centered as the crafter? Is everyone in the group just out for themselves while being in a group of several folks or is it just the crafter? Is the group otherwise like the ones I've described above, but with the crafter swiping 10% in crafting fees? I'm really curious how this party dynamic works, when you have someone in the group who is looking out for themselves more so than for the party's success as a whole. I have literally *never* been in a group that worked like that. I'd honestly like to know how it works, and whether or not it works out for you all.
-S
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Apparently there are two kinds of groups: "Band of Brothers" where the crafter never charges his fellow adventurers because they're like family and the "Band of Co-workers" where the PCs have each other's backs absolutely when out adventuring but don't feel beholden to spend their personal lives optimizing each other's builds for combat.
Different groups play different ways, neither is an indictment on your character and if you don't know how your group feels about crafting you should ask before taking the feat.
the 10% swiping crew.... How do your groups work? Are your groups in it for the group? Is everyone as self centered as the crafter? Is everyone in the group just out for themselves while being in a group of several folks or is it just the crafter? Is the group otherwise like the ones I've described above, but with the crafter swiping 10% in crafting fees? I'm really curious how this party dynamic works, when you have someone in the group who is looking out for themselves more so than for the party's success as a whole. I have literally *never* been in a group that worked like that. I'd honestly like to know how it works, and whether or not it works out for you all.
I've never played in a more team-centric group, Selgard. I guess you're surprised. As I said earlier, in our last campaign, the crafting Wizard sold magic items to the party at cost + 25%. No one batted an eyelash, rather we were all quite happy to get a 25% discount on custom-ordered items.
Far as I can tell, the Wizard had lots of toys and so did I and everyone else. Second Darkness was an item-rich environment. I think we could have made a chain shirt with all the +1 Rings of Protection we liberated.
We worked together and loot was allotted by need, to whom ever could use it best.
Our Kingmaker campaign is a little different in terms of loot dispersal, but that's not to say we've deviated from the team-oriented play. We did have an item-crafting Cohort by the way. He sold items to his Leader's friends at full retail. Oh, the horror.
|
This is why i hate the removal of the Exp component to magical item creation. It cheapens magic items, a small well funded nation can easily outfit their entire army with +1 Breastplates and +1 longswords.
Sure your toon took a feat to make magic items, thats a cost you took. Why shouldn't you charge other players? Well then you get into the whole argument about what all the PCs bring to the table, what is their contribution to the party's success, and that is an argument you do not want at your gaming table. If you are playing Kingmaker you should have burgeoning economy, not sure how you GM is running it, but maybe he should just let you sell magic items to market, and hand wave an amount of gold you bring in to the nations coffers or your own pocket.
Again taking the exp component out of magic item creation was a bad move and only cheapens magic items gp value IMH How is a +1 longsword worth 2315 gold and a MW longsword only costs 315?
the 10% swiping crew.... How do your groups work? Are your groups in it for the group? Is everyone as self centered as the crafter? Is everyone in the group just out for themselves while being in a group of several folks or is it just the crafter? Is the group otherwise like the ones I've described above, but with the crafter swiping 10% in crafting fees? I'm really curious how this party dynamic works, when you have someone in the group who is looking out for themselves more so than for the party's success as a whole. I have literally *never* been in a group that worked like that. I'd honestly like to know how it works, and whether or not it works out for you all.I've never played in a more team-centric group, Selgard. I guess you're surprised. As I said earlier, in our last campaign, the crafting Wizard sold magic items to the party at cost + 25%. No one batted an eyelash, rather we were all quite happy to get a 25% discount on custom-ordered items.
Far as I can tell, the Wizard had lots of toys and so did I and everyone else. Second Darkness was an item-rich environment. I think we could have made a chain shirt with all the +1 Rings of Protection we liberated.
We worked together and loot was allotted by need, to whom ever could use it best.
Our Kingmaker campaign is a little different in terms of loot dispersal, but that's not to say we've deviated from the team-oriented play. We did have an item-crafting Cohort by the way. He sold items to his Leader's friends at full retail. Oh, the horror.
I'm glad it worked out for you guys. Honestly.
Myself, I'm not sure I could sit at the table with that wizard. Having one guy being against the group while everyone else was working together would just grate at me. It'd be like everyone choosing a good alignment and having an evil character in the group.
(not comparing this guy to being evil- just using it as an example of an otherwise cohesive hole with an oddball in it).
I just don't think I'd enjoy the game. I'd want to bash his head in everytime he robbed one his so called "group mates".
-S
| 5 people marked this as a favorite. |
I'm a graphic designer by profession.
Do you know what we, in the graphic design profession, do to those who who don't charge for their work?
Let's just say it puts the "graphic" in graphic design.
Like creating a layout, poster, or corporate identity, creating magic items takes TIME AND MONEY. It can literally take months and thousands of dollars/gold.
Only an insane person would perform that kind of slave labor for that long for free. My time is valuable, whether I'm a wizard or a graphic designer. To ask me to do something for "free" is the very height of pomposity. It is nothing less than STEALING.
I can understand an out of game contract to keep things friendly, but in the game world, there is ABSOLUTELY NO REASON the wizard shouldn't charge the same amount as any other wizard, even outright guffawing at anyone who dares impinge upon his livelyhood until they slink away in rightful shame. For other players to basically say "you will do this, and you will do it without reward" makes them BULLIES in EVERY SENSE OF THE WORD.
I'd drop out of a group like that without a moment's hesitation. You should too.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I'm glad it worked out for you guys. Honestly.
Myself, I'm not sure I could sit at the table with that wizard. Having one guy being against the group while everyone else was working together would just grate at me.
-S
See, that's the thing I guess - where you insist on seeing it as a negative, it just didn't play out that way at the table. Would it have been awesome if that PC had donated his time and made items at cost? Sure, you betcha. That would have been even better. Having said that, the 25% off wasn't too shabby. And not leaving it to chance was nice as well.
It really comes down to perspective. You and AD might go so far as to say only jerks play that way. From my seat, it was fun and everything worked out well.
I'm a graphic designer by profession.
Do you know what we, in the graphic design profession, do to those who who don't charge for their work?
Let's just say it puts the "graphic" in graphic design.
Like creating a layout, poster, or corporate identity, creating magic items takes TIME AND MONEY. It can literally take months and thousands of dollars/gold.
Only an insane person would perform that kind of slave labor for that long for free. My time is valuable, whether I'm a wizard or a graphic designer. To ask me to do something for "free" is the very height of pomposity. It is nothing less than STEALING.
I can understand an out of game contract to keep things friendly, but in the game world, there is ABSOLUTELY NO REASON the wizard shouldn't charge the same amount as any other wizard, even outright guffawing at anyone who dares impinge upon his livelyhood until they slink away in rightful shame. For other players to basically say "you will do this, and you will do it without reward" makes them BULLIES in EVERY SENSE OF THE WORD.
I agree with RD 100%. And in my best Samwise-voice, that's say'n somethin'.
I'm a graphic designer by profession.
Do you know what we, in the graphic design profession, do to those who who don't charge for their work?
Let's just say it puts the "graphic" in graphic design.
Like creating a layout, poster, or corporate identity, creating magic items takes TIME AND MONEY. It can literally take months and thousands of dollars/gold.
Only an insane person would perform that kind of slave labor for that long for free. My time is valuable, whether I'm a wizard or a graphic designer. To ask me to do something for "free" is the very height of pomposity. It is nothing less than STEALING.
I can understand an out of game contract to keep things friendly, but in the game world, there is ABSOLUTELY NO REASON the wizard shouldn't charge the same amount as any other wizard, even outright guffawing at anyone who dares impinge upon his livelyhood until they slink away in rightful shame. For other players to basically say "you will do this, and you will do it without reward" makes them BULLIES in EVERY SENSE OF THE WORD.
I'd drop out of a group like that without a moment's hesitation. You should too.
If the PC's go up to a shop keeper and ask to have something made, then I completely agree that is the required response.
But what if its not that. What if its you and a few buddies going into business together. You happen to be good at graphic design. You want the venture to progress and to profit. You are already getting paid, presumabely, just for being part of the business venture.
Are you going to then also bill them because you happen to be good at graphic design?
Or, since you are a graphic designer who is in business with a few buddies- are you going to put your skill to work for the group, so the group (yourself included) can profit?
Clearly if some wayward NPC approaches the wizard and asks to have something made- that PC is the one who gets the profit. I've never heard of it happening but there's no ingame reason why it couldn't.
But we're not talking about that. We're not even talking about a friend asking you to do what yuo normally charge money for, for free.
What we're talkin about is a group of people who've gone into business together- the business of taking out bad guys, rollin 'em for loot, and going on to the next (and eventually stumbling on a world altering plot and trying to defeat it). but the underlying theme is a group of folks gathering together for a common goal and getting rich and powerful in the process. You are someone who, among your skill set, is the ability to help make everyone in the group more powerful. Are you going to charge them for it? For doing your part of what the group banded together for in the first place in order to accomplish?
Its the same thing as the rogue charging to open doors. Or locks. or disabling traps. Or the melee guys charging to use their feats in combat. Or the other spell casters charging to use their spells or feats for the group. "hey guys I can empower this next lightning bolt but it'll cost you for that kind of power".
I really don't think folks would stand for that. They wouldn't let the barbarian charge for his feats and a rogue who insisted on coins before opening locks or doors or checking for and disabling traps wouldn't be tolerated for long either. Would he? Would you condone that? Would you let him in the group?
If not- why is the wizard getting a fee pass here? Its the exact same thing. The players are either in it for the group, or for themselves.
Clearly each group has their own thing, and what works for some may not work for others.
The dude skimming gold off the top doesn't work for me. Not at all. I'd have to have a discussion about it, and if it didn't cease and the table disagreed with me I'd have to find another table. I really couldn't justify any character I've ever created hanging out with a group when someone was behaving that way. If they are that coin oriented, I couldn't sleep with them on watch and couldn't trust them to hold the McGuffin if we found it.
Not wrong/bad/etc. Just not my cup of tea.
Glad you guys can make it work though.
-S
@gnomersy - Aeravin, the LN Elf Wizard in question, would to take half-down and the rest on delivery. Often times he would finance a loan for a much-needed item. And he took custom orders! I mean, that's just full service.
My girlfriend is a bit of an artist. Nothing major, does some minor commission work here and there. One of her friends commissioned a deck of cards with illustrations for a deck of many things. She gave a price that was higher than the friend wanted. He thought it was outrageous, and that it was wrong to charge so much for tiny illustrations. Problem is, the price she was charging was by all rights too low, not even min wage level pay for how much was going to have to go into it. She already had the materials mostly, but he wasn't even taking that into consideration.
He wanted a custom work. He wanted it exclusively. He wanted it for cheaper than an actual slave in some hell hole country could make it for (less than a hundred bucks for 30+ high detail illustrations on flexible card stock). Who is the jerk here? The person who wanted the work commissioned, or the friend who wanted to be compensated for their work. Instead of doing his commission she could be doing paying commission work, or her own art for her own enjoyment.
She was willing to make it for much less than what she could or would charge somebody else. Yet he threw it in her face and demanded that the work be almost free. That kind of demand would be a deal breaker for any friendship for me.
Why would a wizard (in world perspective) feel any different?
I'm glad it worked out for you guys. Honestly.
Myself, I'm not sure I could sit at the table with that wizard. Having one guy being against the group while everyone else was working together would just grate at me.
-SSee, that's the thing I guess - where you on seeing it as a negative, it just didn't play out that way at the table. Would it have been awesome if that PC had donated his time and made items at cost? Sure, you betcha. That would have been even better. Having said that, the 25% off wasn't too shabby. And not leaving it to chance was nice as well.
It really comes down to perspective. You and AD might go so far as to say only jerks play that way. From my seat, it was fun and everything worked out well.
This is an interesting way of looking at it. I suppose I'm sort of the same but my thought process has to assume that the characters are people and as people like me and most people in the world they do things in order to reap personal benefits not just purely out of the goodness of their hearts(except paladins ... pious bastards).
For example say I have a friend, aforementioned friend lacks a car(crafting feat) and he asks me to do him a favor maybe once a month or less and give him a ride someplace because it's important. If it's not far out of my way I'll do it for free(something easy and not time consuming).
If he wants me to drive 7 hours out of my way to drop him off someplace ... well I'm probably going to want at least gas money for both ways(even though he's only there for the going to part) and a favor or some sort of compensation in return. After all he's asking for a lot of my time and a fair bit of inconvenience, sure he's my friend but by that same virtue he shouldn't be a dick about asking for favors.
Well sure, 7 hours out of your way you expect to get compensation. And you should.
But if you and your buddy are in the business of driving folks places and you discover a way to get tons of mileage out of your car- are you gonna charge him to do it to his car? When you are in business together? Charge him parts maybe, but you'll go fix his car to match yours so the business makes more money. So you make more money- which you do when his car gets better gas mileage.. because you two are in business together, driving folks places.
-S
| 4 people marked this as a favorite. |
I have an old book from "graphic design college" that goes on at length why doing projects for your friends, much less for free, is a TERRIBLE idea. In short, it's precisely because of your close relationship they they, intentionally or not, are more apt to abuse your services than complete strangers (the are simply more comfortable with asking for more, for less).
This thread, and the sheer number of people in it that actively oppose my viewpoint, is proof enough that this is indeed the case. There are SO MANY people here who don't seem to have any trouble at all with asking their close friends to work for them, for 8 hours a day, every day, for months (that, or they simply don't realize how much investment they are really asking for).
Why don't more people see just how obscenely wrong that is?
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Frankly I don't see what their beef is. This is a role playing game and your character should have every expectation to make a little something for his effort.
If your characters are FREINDS in game then 10% is a very nice price. If your charactere are BUSINESS associates in game, then 10% is an OUTSTANDINGLY low markup.
Honestly they did not take they feat, you did. I mean if one of them was a real life building contractor and you asked them to take a few weeks and come over and add an addition to your home at cost what do you think they would say to you?
While I realise this is a GAME it is a ROLE PLAYING game and you have every right to RP the interaction as your character would. RPG characterzs should interact like real people if they have depth and substance. Asking a 10% benefit is pretty nice.
I will probably be the odd man out but I think you acted perfectly fine. In no way were you being a jerk. Personally I think them getting all twisted to that extent over 10% is pretty infantile.
Let me ask, do any of the other players work for a living in real life? Because pretty much anyone who works to support themselves would know how valuable their time is and will damn well expect to be compesated.
If the PC's go up to a shop keeper and ask to have something made, then I completely agree that is the required response.
But what if its not that. What if its you and a few buddies going into business together. You happen to be good at graphic design. You want the venture to progress and to profit. You are already getting paid, presumabely, just for being part of the business venture.
Are you going to then also bill them because you happen to be good at graphic design?Or, since you are a graphic designer who is in business with a few buddies- are you going to put your skill to work for the group, so the group (yourself included) can profit?
Clearly if some wayward NPC approaches the wizard and asks to have something made- that PC is the one who gets the profit. I've never heard of it happening but there's no ingame reason why it couldn't....
Sorry Sel but I can't help but disagree with that point of view because that's not what's happening you can think of it that way if you ignore the fact that you're supposed to be treating your characters as people.
But the reality of the situation is that you start a business with 4 guys lets say you're a skilled accountant or something and are taking care of that for your share of the profits 25% now lets say you learn how to do graphic design but you aren't taking time off from your accounting but your fellow workers expect you to put in an extra 4 hours every day doing design work for the business but without any increase in pay, I think most people would call that getting shafted.
In the examples I gave above, no one is asking the wizard to double up anything. In fact, his share of any chores are usually commuted to other people so he can work crafting instead, when he so chooses.
In your example, if the accounting is taking so much time that he can't do the other too then rather than excpecting him to work another 8 hours on it, they'd expect him to help vet a 5th person who can do it. Since he's their expert, he'll get majority say on who the new guy is, since he's the best judge of the quality and the cost. or if they decide to just out source it and buy the stuff he'd be the best judge of that. Quite frankly- its just not a terribly good example. Partially because folks in business together will do whatever they can to make more money :) and partially because the guys in a D&D group aren't working an 8-5 job. They are working a 24 hour a day 7 day a week 365 day a year job to save the world. I've never had a character- mine or any other- say "hey guys its 5pm, i gotta go home and eat, sorry.. gonna go punch in my time card."
nah they are adventurers! they are out in the wilds of the world doin the hard stuff no one else will do. And getting a helluva lot of gold for it.
And once again- the wizard *is* getting things out of it. As long as they are part of the group they are getting a ton of benefit out of whatever they create. its going to the group, making the group stronger faster better tougher more efficient and more able to tackle the challenges that lie ahead of it. This means /more/ loot for less cost. What he gets isn't gold from the party members, sure. but it means more loot overall, faster, more effectively with less risk of life.
He's getting "paid". Just not in money.
-S
I have an old book from "graphic design college" that goes on at length why doing projects for your friends, much less for free, is a TERRIBLE idea. In short, it's precisely because of your close relationship they they, intentionally or not, are more apt to abuse your services than complete strangers (the are simply more comfortable with asking for more, for less).
This thread, and the sheer number of people in it that actively oppose my viewpoint, is proof enough that this is indeed the case. There are SO MANY people here who don't seem to have any trouble at all with asking their close friends to work for them, for 8 hours a day, every day, for months (that, or they simply don't realize how much investment they are really asking for).
Why don't more people see just how obscenely wrong that is?
Because they are used to free stuff. People tend to get a feeling of entitlement when they have gotten something for nothing in the past. This is regardless of how right or wrong it is.