Creating magical item for the party + small fee on the work = players uprorar?


Advice

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gnomersy wrote:

Sel here's the issue with that idea the whole double dipping premise only works if you have the means to give the crafter extra wealth outside of the party.

So say the Barb gets a 4k axe for 2k gp he also keeps 2k gp around for later he ends up with 6k gp WBL then the Wizard crafts himself a trinket for 2k that is worth 4k but for his WBL he's at 4k WBL.

Now if you have a way to give 2k WBL straight to the caster all is well but if you can only receive gear with the party there then the Caster never gets the extra 2k so the WBL remains with the Barb at 6k and the wizard at 4k and if you drop 8k worth of junk the wizard keeps falling further behind according to how the faq tells us to treat WBL.

Which is a conversation to have with the DM about how he distributes wealth to the party.

You can most definately give certain party members items. The DM knows how the group handles loot and he knows what party members use what items.

If one guy uses full plaet a shield and a bastard sword and no one else does the DM knows he can boost *his* WBL by dropping in some full plate, or a better sword, or shield (or presumably a str item)

He can also have individual rewards come from kings or other "quest givers" (though I hate that term in D&D its still the purpose they serve)

"The DM won't give me what I want so I'm going to take it from the other players". That rationale falls flat, sorry.
If you have an issue with the DM and WBL talk to the Dm about it. Don't steal from the group to make up for it.

-S


Humphey Boggard wrote:

The real disconnect is that Selgard and company prefer to play in parties that are more or less equivalent to MMO guilds. Hence the Khmer Rouge like expectation absolute cooperation at all times. The other camp prefers to play in parties that more closely resemble a group of friends in real life but given heroic powers and tasks.

In Selgard's Khmer Rouge fantasy game a crafter refusing to give his 100% in and out combat is an enemy of the Party and ends up dead in a rice paddy somewhere.

In my party the time a crafter spends crafting is time he doesn't get to spend with his family, running his estate and pursuing his non-adventuring goals.

I prefer to play in groups where we act like folks in business for one another, where we're all in it as a group for the group.

Ever been in a equal partner ship before? Ever have one of the partners decide he deserved more than his share of the wealth?

Assuming everyone is working hard and putting their skills to proper use for the business then everyone benefits equally when the profits are split.

MMO guilds are different because they are based on a "we're friends, lets work together" and often you are being given something someone else doesn't need anyway. Even then I've been in guilds where guildies still charged fees for their crafts.
of course, leveling crafting often costs alot of ingame money, time, and resources. It certainly isn't free for the crafter to level it up.
but it also doesn't cost them a "slot" to do it. No one has to give up power to take a crafting skill- not in any MMO i've been in. Its always an extra.

Its still comparing apples to oranges.

-S


Selgard wrote:


Which is a conversation to have with the DM about how he distributes wealth to the party.

You can most definately give certain party members items. The DM knows how the group handles loot and he knows what party members use what items.

If one guy uses full plaet a shield and a bastard sword and no one else does the DM knows he can boost *his* WBL by dropping in some full plate, or a better sword, or shield (or presumably a str item)

He can also have individual rewards come from kings or other "quest givers" (though I hate that term in D&D its still the purpose they serve)

"The DM won't give me what I want so I'm going to take it from the other players". That rationale falls flat, sorry.
If you have an issue with the DM and WBL talk to the Dm about it. Don't steal from the group to make up for it.

-S

Yes but there is no good way to give the caster extra wealth because he can convert items essentially for free which is the other point of the feat right?

So if the party all pays attention to WBL then you'll be fine otherwise the party will just see "Oh why does the wizard have an awesome staff and robes and a fancy ring and headband, and I only got this sword and armor?"

The fact is that boosting WBL is easiest when you lack crafting feats but this does the opposite sure you could drop a bunch of mage specific stuff to boost his but how long before the other players decide, "Nah screw that he doesn't need that much shiny stuff we should sell it and then he can craft us everyone's fair share worth." which ultimately skews things again.

Now I'm not saying you should charge everyone for the feat I don't really care one way or the other because the idea of making a crafter is boring to me but I can absolutely see why if I was a DM I might rule that crafting is solely for personal use in the interests of maintaining balance.


Selgard wrote:

If I understand SKR's post correctly (and I may not, since we generally ignore it and WBL anyway)-

The crafter gets the benefit of his crafting calculated into his WBL.
if he turns 2k gold into a 4k item he gets credited 2k. since he has the feat.

The barbarian has a 4k axe crafted by the wizard though- his WBL is up 4k not 2k. Because its worth 4k. HE doesn't get the WBL benefit of the feat.

So what happens WBL wise (by raw)
barbarian pays 2200 and is charged 4k.
The wizard pockets 200.
When the wizard crafts, he gets 50% off every item he crafts towards his WBL. And he gets to keep 10% of whatever he crafts for the PC's.

This does not make any sense to me (I'm afraid I don't know what SKR post you're referring to). I did erroneously reference WBL instead of simply Wealth, but I don't see how that has anything to do with anything. That is, unless you're saying each player should be "topped off" to wealth-by-level amounts, with adjustments for feats.

If that's what you're saying, I understand it, but fervently disagree with it - nor does it align with your premise of "equal shares".

If a barbarian has a 2200 share, and gets a 4k axe out of it, while the wizard gets 2400gp and doesn't bother making himself a magic weapon, the barbarian is ahead by 1600. If the barbarian gets a belt of giant strength, and the wizard makes a headband of intellect and scribes scrolls for 400gp, the wizard is ahead by 800 gp. If he instead makes a cloak of elvenkind and spends the rest buying scrolls and scribing them into his spellbook, he's down by 350 (*counting* the full value of scrolls and scribing).


Humphey Boggard wrote:

The real disconnect is that Selgard and company prefer to play in parties that are more or less equivalent to MMO guilds. Hence the Khmer Rouge like expectation absolute cooperation at all times. The other camp prefers to play in parties that more closely resemble a group of friends in real life but given heroic powers and tasks.

In Selgard's Khmer Rouge fantasy game a crafter refusing to give his 100% in and out combat is an enemy of the Party and ends up dead in a rice paddy somewhere.

In my party the time a crafter spends crafting is time he doesn't get to spend with his family, running his estate and pursuing his non-adventuring goals.

Selgard wrote:

I'm never going to be happy paying another character in the group 10% for something. I will be happy to leave his self serving character behind and find someone else who's more group oriented.

This Game Is Not About Any One Character.

I can Not stress that enough.
If your sole reason for taking anything is for your own person sole use then get the heck out of my game, don't sit at my table. If you aren't in it for the group, get out. Just get out. Self serving characters don't belong in a cooperative game.

You guys who are for them stealing from the party have an entirely self centered perspective that is essentially "I took this feat and this means I get to steal your money if you expect me to use it"

Selgard wrote:
The more I think about it, the more I'd just IC ditch the character and leave him at his temple to Abadar, wish him luck and move on without him. Which is exactly what would happen to the Thief, assuming the DM had a "no pvp" rule.. (in which case they would die, for becoming an enemy to the party. for the thief anyway, not necesarily applicable to the cleric here)
Selgard wrote:
Then you, the wizard, will be left behind the next time we go adventuring because you lack the requisite team mentality.

I'm still going with the Khmer Rouge analogy except to say that I was wrong to say that online MMO guilds were like that.


Humphey Boggard wrote:
Humphey Boggard wrote:

The real disconnect is that Selgard and company prefer to play in parties that are more or less equivalent to MMO guilds. Hence the Khmer Rouge like expectation absolute cooperation at all times. The other camp prefers to play in parties that more closely resemble a group of friends in real life but given heroic powers and tasks.

In Selgard's Khmer Rouge fantasy game a crafter refusing to give his 100% in and out combat is an enemy of the Party and ends up dead in a rice paddy somewhere.

In my party the time a crafter spends crafting is time he doesn't get to spend with his family, running his estate and pursuing his non-adventuring goals.

Selgard wrote:

I'm never going to be happy paying another character in the group 10% for something. I will be happy to leave his self serving character behind and find someone else who's more group oriented.

This Game Is Not About Any One Character.

I can Not stress that enough.
If your sole reason for taking anything is for your own person sole use then get the heck out of my game, don't sit at my table. If you aren't in it for the group, get out. Just get out. Self serving characters don't belong in a cooperative game.

You guys who are for them stealing from the party have an entirely self centered perspective that is essentially "I took this feat and this means I get to steal your money if you expect me to use it"

Selgard wrote:
The more I think about it, the more I'd just IC ditch the character and leave him at his temple to Abadar, wish him luck and move on without him. Which is exactly what would happen to the Thief, assuming the DM had a "no pvp" rule.. (in which case they would die, for becoming an enemy to the party. for the thief anyway, not necesarily applicable to the cleric here)
Selgard wrote:
Then you, the wizard, will be left behind the next time we go adventuring because you lack the requisite team mentality.
I'm still going with the Khmer Rouge analogy except to...

so the example of me extorting the crafter to help out when he's in trouble, that character should be left behind in a party full of people who have to trust each other completely. but the crafter who thinks they deserve more than the rest of the party, I would wanna find some way to even it out.


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Pathfinder Maps, Pawns Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber

I suppose it comes down to play style.

Some people see it as a metagame issue, citing that crafting should be done at cost as a matter of out-of-game etiquette. To charge anything additional is seen as reprehensibly rude. Such people tend to argue their case by citing strictly metagame concepts of balance.

Others, see it as an in-game issue. No other item crafter IN THE WORLD has to sell his wares at cost, so why should their characters be forced to? Offering substantial discounts over the market price of said items is not only seen as perfectly acceptable, but highly generous. These people see the thought of crafting for free as something that breaks the fourth wall. They tend to argue by citing real life examples that mirror the in-game scenario as it might have played out if it didn't suddenly become an out-of-game issue.

Does that sound like a fair approximation of what is appearing in this thread?


Majuba wrote:


This does not make any sense to me (I'm afraid I don't know what SKR post you're referring to). I did erroneously reference WBL instead of simply Wealth, but I don't see how that has anything to do with anything. That is, unless you're saying each player should be "topped off" to wealth-by-level amounts, with adjustments for feats.

If that's what you're saying, I understand it, but fervently disagree with it - nor does it align with your premise of "equal shares".

If a barbarian has a 2200 share, and gets a 4k axe out of it, while the wizard gets 2400gp and doesn't bother making himself a magic weapon, the barbarian is ahead by 1600. If the barbarian gets a belt of giant strength, and the wizard makes a headband of intellect and scribes scrolls for 400gp, the wizard is ahead by 800 gp. If he instead makes a cloak of elvenkind and spends the rest buying scrolls and scribing them into his spellbook, he's down by 350 (*counting* the full value of scrolls and scribing).

but the barbarian isn't really ahead by anything because the crafter makes up whatever manufactured deficit when he/she crafts something for him/herself. that only becomes valid if the crafter never crafts something for him/herself. so what happens in the above example is that the crafter will then make something with the 2600 that he/she has, and can easily create something worth 5k instead of 4k. there's a new deficit, the barbarian is down now more than 1k, instead of 200g


The problem as I see it is that there are 2 very different play styles here and both come with subtle but distinctly different points of view. I’ll call them the real life play style and the game oriented play style.

Real life play style

In the real life play style, the players view their characters as living breathing people in a fantasy world and have them act as such with there own lives outside adventuring. This is the perspective being taken by those that say charging for services during down time is generally acceptable and even expected.

From this perspective it is completely acceptable to charge some fee during down time between adventures. Most people do not put their friends and family first, spending days, weeks, or even months doing things for them and sacrificing there own time without expecting some form of compensation. And yes, even if you are military and have had you life saved repeatedly there is still a limit as to how far most people will let someone milk it before they expect or even demand compensation for their time or simply say no. You don’t suddenly become someone’s slave because they saved your life.

As for the arguments about you charging me so I’ll charge you, they really don’t apply. When adventuring, the entire party works together and gets equal shares of the treasure. If you are in a dungeon or the middle of an adventure then you use your abilities for the party without asking for compensation beyond cost. If this means spinning out a batch of potions, a ring of invisibility or whatever, so be it. Now between adventures when you could be relaxing at home and pursuing your own interests, that’s when you would charge a fee. Again this is all from a real life perspective. So let’s look at it from the other point of view.

Game oriented play style

The game oriented play style looks at it for what it is, a game, and focuses on accomplishing the games goals as efficiently as possible. This is the perspective being taken by those saying items should be made for the party at cost and charging a fee is unacceptable.

Since no actual time passes for the player whose character is making the equipment and they are being given what they need to make it, they are out nothing. Groups that are game oriented are generally group oriented as well focusing first on the group and second on the individual characters. Consequently, they often see asking for a fee as one player trying to “get ahead” of the other players rather then role playing their character and how they would really act, because of this it is generally frown upon.

*****

So who is right? The answer is both sides are. Ultimately you should find out what the groups mind set is before choosing any kind of item creation feat so as to avoid potential problems. For example, I tend to prefer games using the real life perspective and have charged a nominal fee for items created during down time. I also expect to pay others that do similarly and have no objection to it.

This doesn’t mean that I think others, such as say Admantium Dragon, are wrong or even that I couldn’t play in the same game as them, merely that I’d need to know the expectations in advance so I could choose feats accordingly. In a game of that nature I would probably be less likely to take item creation feats not because I’m mad or am being a jerk but because I focus on RPing my character as I see them acting in real life and taking an item creation feat and acting that way would “feel” weird and shake my sense of verisimilitude thus detracting from my fun, not greatly but enough to make me think twice before taking one.

I could say a lot more on the subject, heck I could probably right a paper on it and the differences I’ve observed playing in games of both types, but I think I’ve hit the highlights. Incidentally, I got a little lazy reading so if I skipped over someone saying all this before I apologize.

edit: ninja'd by Ravingdork, and ya I think it pretty much is... though I guess from my post that's obvious xP


Ravingdork wrote:

I suppose it comes down to play style.

Some people see it as a metagame issue, citing that crafting should be done at cost as a matter of out-of-game etiquette. To charge anything additional is seen as reprehensibly rude. Such people tend to argue their case by citing strictly metagame concepts of balance.

Others, see it as an in-game issue. No other item crafter IN THE WORLD has to sell his wares at cost, so why should their characters be forced to? Offering substantial discounts over the market price of said items is not only seen as perfectly acceptable, but highly generous. These people see the thought of crafting for free as something that breaks the fourth wall. They tend to argue by citing real life examples that mirror the in-game scenario as it might have played out if it didn't suddenly become an out-of-game issue.

Does that sound like a fair approximation of what is appearing in this thread?

No. Not remotely. It is, however, what the profiteers are accusing the non-profiteers of, in spite of roughly 200 posts explaining why this is totally erroneous.

Eventually it becomes clear that people aren't "getting it" because they don't WANT TO.


Mistwalker wrote:

I see you too failed your will save and are posting in this thread again.

dragonfire8974 wrote:
Selgard wrote:
stuff i agree with
personally, my character would take advantage of the non-full price stuff, but one time when the caster is in trouble, or every so often when the caster is in trouble, i wouldn't help out until my money is refunded. or craft myself.

Hmm, that sounds like extorsion or murder to me.

So, am I understanding your response correctly, that you would accept the price, likely complain about it, but pay it, and then when the crafter is in a bind in combat, you would abandon your role, your combat job, unless the crafter refunded you?

Also, out of curiosity, if the crafter is in a bind in combat, how would they provide you the gold in a manner that would allow you to return to your job before they get killed?

From where I am sitting, it appears that you would be the one who was escalating things, becoming a larger criminal that the what you are accusing the crafter of being.

If you do this, please let me know how it turned out, for your PC, the crafter, the group and the players.

it is extortion.

my character would confer with the other character, and probably doesn't know any better about magic item creation for a while until something is mentioned in passing by some merchant when my character would find out that the crafter had been skimming. then when the crafter was in trouble, my character would say something about the materials he's been getting, and would stand back and tell the crafter that he should've been honest with him, and will require the money the crafter has been making off of him above the materials that they have been splitting for their various adventuring practices.

but that's a purely non-metagaming approach. with metagaming it wouldn't get that far. I would object, and if the player decided that he can't live without taking 10% of my gold, then i'll talk to the GM about providing me with extra loot so i can buy items and still be at the same power as the rest of the group. if the gm doesn't wanna allow that, i would take a crafting feat for myself and undercut the business of the other crafter


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Interesting thread. I'm really saddened by the lack of maturity, primarily on the free-crafting side, but also on the profit-crafting side as well. Special props to Selgard for being a shining light on the side I initially disagreed with. For the record, I read every post, except a few of Adamantium Dragon's whose hateful language really hit me as over the top and excessively mean (and most recent post still does). Really, AD, if you don't like it, just say so. You are littering telling people they are playing inferior to you because you disagree. Stop.

I came into this thinking - "The Crafter is sacrificing time and energy he could be using on other things - scribing scrolls, writing into his spellbook, crafting for himself, miscellaneous role-playing - for crafting for a friend. He has every right to ask for a small fee for his time."

Selgard I disagree with something you said a page or so ago - Opinions can change on the board. Mine has here, as it has in the past, admittedly on a far more important subject (the right of a nation to torture war criminals for information).

I no longer think the crafter's default position should be to charge. However, I also think party members can't really expect their items anytime soon unless they are willing to pitch in a bit more than necessary.

If I craft for the group, I won't ask for more money than necessary to craft. But that comes with the understanding that your crafting need has zero priority for me. Everything that takes precedence (scrolls, spellbook, research, items for me, items that are critical for next adventure, meaningful roleplaying, meaningless roleplaying) over that item you wanted to craft for me. Once I'm done with everything in my off-time (and I never am for lack of relaxation in-game), I'll get around to it - but it may take so long that you may decide to buy it yourself and get it sooner, or pay a bit more to get me to work on it now.

About my group - we play "Individuals first, group members second". My Paladin puts her goals above the groups' - should they ever become in conflict, she will follow her code before her friends (not all characters are like that, and that's fine). That being said, during a mission, we are all professionals. We all do what is necessary to survive and continue on to our goal. We know that when the chips are down is not the time to be petty. Loot is divided by useful items to who needs them most/can use them best, the rest is split evenly. Downtime is usually just that - downtime. There's not much to do until tomorrow comes and our meeting with the princess at noon. Until then, we relax and do our thing - if I want a crafter to make me something during that time, I'll say "Can you make me X? I'll give you a little extra for your time". If he refuses, he refuses. I move on. While he crafts my item (or doesn't), I go off and do my thing, the magus does his thing, the Bard tries to get laid, and we all relax and do a little jovial role-playing.

It works for us. And I don't think anyone would complain if I asked for a slight tip when I craft (though my character doesn't craft right now).

In other words - we are having fun, and so, I bequest these words upon thee (+42 if you know the reference) "I won Dungeons and Dragons, and it was advanced!"


TheRedArmy wrote:

Interesting thread. I'm really saddened by the lack of maturity, primarily on the free-crafting side, but also on the profit-crafting side as well. Special props to Selgard for being a shining light on the side I initially disagreed with. For the record, I read every post, except a few of Adamantium Dragon's whose hateful language really hit me as over the top and excessively mean (and most recent post still does). Really, AD, if you don't like it, just say so. You are littering telling people they are playing inferior to you because you disagree. Stop.

Right. I, who have contributed a few posts originally, a few more around the 100 mark, and a few more around the 200 mark, and now this one, am the worst offender. Sure.

I am not telling anyone anything except what I think of the PCs they are creating Red. You, on the other hand, are attacking me personally, calling me immature and hateful.

Right. I'm the problem here Red.

Not you. Not at all.

Jeeez.... spare me the moral arbiters of the world and those who are so enamored of their wonderfulness that they feel obliged and justified in calling other people names in the name of righteousness.


as i just cleared with my response to mistwalker, my character (who most likely isn't dumb, but doesn't know much about magic seeing as it has probably been taken care of by said crafter) wouldn't question the price, but eventually would find out that the other person was profiting off of making him stuff even though he's making sure no one attempts to hurt his buddy, and makes sure he is not interrupted when he doesn't wanna be, and generally takes care of anything he can for the other person, cause he would wanna show his appreciation for the creation of these personal items. he would then talk to him about it, and if the crafter responds that he deserves to be compensated for his time and skills, then the next time we were out on adventuring, i would while being confronted by some powerful thugs who were unhappy about the stuff we've been working into in some back alley, or some meeting, i would either not show up or i would be passive until the crafter appreciates me the way i feel I should be appreciated and taking his profits from our adventuring like we're supposed to

EDIT: i forgot who i responded to... had to change names


I think it comes do to two ethical principles. The benefit maximization principle vs. the principle of equal respect/ respect for persons.

Now this is not a perfect example but it is close.

Some see the right/ethical thing to do in a situation to be whatever causes the most good/benefit. This is the benefit maximization. For someone who views things this way crafting should be given at cost no argument.

For someone who follows the principle of equal respect, the individual and his personal merit/happiness/safety etc are MORE important that gaining more good for everyone. These people would never choose to kill 1 to save 100. (they may help the one if he wanted to save the 100 even knowing he would die). These people will most likely see the expenditure of time with no reward as disrespectful and against the equal respect principle UNLESS the others are busy doing an equal job for the crafter.

I also like what Revel said.

Also, my dad can beat your dad up...


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Adamantine Dragon wrote:

No. Not remotely. It is, however, what the profiteers are accusing the non-profiteers of, in spite of roughly 200 posts explaining why this is totally erroneous.

Eventually it becomes clear that people aren't "getting it" because they don't WANT TO.

Actually I disagree, elaborating on what I said above a little from the “real-life” perspective if you have me spend say two weeks of my free time making items for you at cost and you save 10,000 gold then you just got 10,000 gold and I lost 2 weeks… who’s profiteering? Meanwhile if I at least make a little you still come out ahead but I get something for my time.

Of course from the game oriented perspective no time is really passing and my character is earning gold beyond the groups norm at the expense on a party member and that’s not cool at all.

IMHO it’s entirely about perspective and play style. But as always that's just my opinion.


Revel wrote:
Adamantine Dragon wrote:

No. Not remotely. It is, however, what the profiteers are accusing the non-profiteers of, in spite of roughly 200 posts explaining why this is totally erroneous.

Eventually it becomes clear that people aren't "getting it" because they don't WANT TO.

Actually I disagree, elaborating on what I said above a little from the “real-life” perspective if you have me spend say two weeks of my free time making items for you at cost and you save 10,000 gold then you just got 10,000 gold and I lost 2 weeks… who’s profiteering? Meanwhile if I at least make a little you still come out ahead but I get something for my time.

Of course from the game oriented perspective no time is really passing and my character is earning gold beyond the groups norm at the expense on a party member and that’s not cool at all.

IMHO it’s entirely about perspective and play style. But as always that's just my opinion.

As I have said all along Revel, if you are playing an evil, or potentially even a neutral character, then this behavior is justified. But then so is the behavior of the other evil or neutral party members who say "oh yeah? well buddy, here's my menu!"

Good characters as part of an heroic party, this is uncool.

As I've said, if "jerk" is part of your character concept, then go right ahead and play one.


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Adamantine Dragon wrote:
TheRedArmy wrote:

Interesting thread. I'm really saddened by the lack of maturity, primarily on the free-crafting side, but also on the profit-crafting side as well. Special props to Selgard for being a shining light on the side I initially disagreed with. For the record, I read every post, except a few of Adamantium Dragon's whose hateful language really hit me as over the top and excessively mean (and most recent post still does). Really, AD, if you don't like it, just say so. You are littering telling people they are playing inferior to you because you disagree. Stop.

Right. I, who have contributed a few posts originally, a few more around the 100 mark, and a few more around the 200 mark, and now this one, am the worst offender. Sure.

I am not telling anyone anything except what I think of the PCs they are creating Red. You, on the other hand, are attacking me personally, calling me immature and hateful.

Right. I'm the problem here Red.

Not you. Not at all.

Jeeez.... spare me the moral arbiters of the world and those who are so enamored of their wonderfulness that they feel obliged and justified in calling other people names in the name of righteousness.

You have a point. I take back most of what I said. Sorry.

But your posts are over the top. It it not hard to take a breath and scale it back a bit. At least a few have been too confrontational. Some tact would be nice.

It's at least somewhat my viewpoint too - I think one of the worst things to do to another player is to down him for the way he likes to play the game. I don't judge how other players play D&D. I don't think it's right.

Maybe this is just your big issue.


Revel wrote:


Actually I disagree, elaborating on what I said above a little from the “real-life” perspective if you have me spend say two weeks of my free time making items for you at cost and you save 10,000 gold then you just got 10,000 gold and I lost 2 weeks… who’s profiteering? Meanwhile if I at least make a little you still come out ahead but I get something for my time.

Of course from the game oriented perspective no time is really passing and my character is earning gold beyond the groups norm at the expense on a party member and that’s not cool at all.

IMHO it’s entirely about perspective and play style. But as always that's just my opinion.

but you're not really losing two weeks. you're losing 4 hours a day, which is trivial in game. now i'll admit, that's a good chunk of time every day. but as someone else said, even with the highest profession check (dc30), you can only make 3d6 gold per day. so time, even for the most expert of people, isn't worth 100 gold a day. but if the other people aren't contributing to help you out while you're helping them out, then they're not good companions, and charging, while i think 10% is too much from a gameplay standpoint, becomes less of an issue

real life examples aren't applicable because most of us can't do what our characters can


TheRedArmy wrote:
Adamantine Dragon wrote:
TheRedArmy wrote:

Interesting thread. I'm really saddened by the lack of maturity, primarily on the free-crafting side, but also on the profit-crafting side as well. Special props to Selgard for being a shining light on the side I initially disagreed with. For the record, I read every post, except a few of Adamantium Dragon's whose hateful language really hit me as over the top and excessively mean (and most recent post still does). Really, AD, if you don't like it, just say so. You are littering telling people they are playing inferior to you because you disagree. Stop.

Right. I, who have contributed a few posts originally, a few more around the 100 mark, and a few more around the 200 mark, and now this one, am the worst offender. Sure.

I am not telling anyone anything except what I think of the PCs they are creating Red. You, on the other hand, are attacking me personally, calling me immature and hateful.

Right. I'm the problem here Red.

Not you. Not at all.

Jeeez.... spare me the moral arbiters of the world and those who are so enamored of their wonderfulness that they feel obliged and justified in calling other people names in the name of righteousness.

You have a point. I take back most of what I said. Sorry.

But your posts are over the top. It it not hard to take a breath and scale it back a bit. At least a few have been too confrontational. Some tact would be nice.

It's at least somewhat my viewpoint too - I think one of the worst things to do to another player is to down him for the way he likes to play the game. I don't judge how other players play D&D. I don't think it's right.

Maybe this is just your big issue.

See Red, I've been judging the players' CHARACTERS, not the players.

When the players take it personally, all I can do is assume that they have a reason to.

My opinion was asked for, I provided it. Whether you accept it or not, from my perspective I have been the target of far more vile comments than anything I have said about another PERSON. Your post included.

I am not the one taking things personally.


1 person marked this as a favorite.

To AD.

I actually do not think you HAVE to be evil and or neutral to charge cost.

I have had character BUY items at cost for others party memebers just because the item would make them so cool.

Others I have had charge a small fee.

My Paladin who could craft charged a small fee based on the time he could be helping those truly in need instead of crafting. He would take this extra amount (which was 15% market) and tithe it since he noticed his companions (even a cleric) never seemed to tithe at all. They knew he was charging over, they knew where it was going and they knew it was his way of making up for missed opportunity and forcing his groups to tithe. (muhahahahahahahaha) This way their moneys went to OTHER good causes since our group was not the only good cause in the world at the time.

So I think there are cases where good characters can charge with no moral issue involved. Again, as stated above it kinda depends on the moral principle and as Revel says, the game perspective one has.


TheRedArmy wrote:


You have a point. I take back most of what I said. Sorry.

But your posts are over the top. It it not hard to take a breath and scale it back a bit. At least a few have been too confrontational. Some tact would be nice.

It's at least somewhat my viewpoint too - I think one of the worst things to do to another player is to down him for the way he likes to play the game. I don't judge how other players play D&D. I don't think it's right.

Maybe this is just your big issue.

no offense buddy, but you haven't read the whole thread obviously. some of us have been repeating ourselves for over several hundred posts that just get ignored (that 10% is a trivial amount because it ends up giving a crafter, assuming a party of 4, 50% more wealth; that the characters are wasting all their time crafting; that a character can't do anything else but craft)


cdglantern wrote:

To AD.

I actually do not think you HAVE to be evil and or neutral to charge cost.

I have had character BUY items at cost for others party memebers just because the item would make them so cool.

Others I have had charge a small fee.

My Paladin who could craft charged a small fee based on the time he could be helping those truly in need instead of crafting. He would take this extra amount (which was 15% market) and tithe it since he noticed his companions (even a cleric) never seemed to tithe at all. They knew he was charging over, they knew where it was going and they knew it was his way of making up for missed opportunity and forcing his groups to tithe. (muhahahahahahahaha) This way their moneys went to OTHER good causes since our group was not the only good cause in the world at the time.

So I think there are cases where good characters can charge with no moral issue involved. Again, as stated above it kinda depends on the moral principle and as Revel says, the game perspective one has.

now this isn't something i would have a problem with, donating the profits or putting it to something that doesn't increase the characters power, and doesn't cause the crafter to have more items or wealth than the other characters


dragonfire8974 wrote:


now this isn't something i would have a problem with, donating the profits or putting it to something that doesn't increase the characters power, and doesn't cause the crafter to have more items or wealth than the other characters

Cool, Good to know. So your real issue is a balance issue?


cdglantern wrote:

To AD.

I actually do not think you HAVE to be evil and or neutral to charge cost.

I have had character BUY items at cost for others party memebers just because the item would make them so cool.

Others I have had charge a small fee.

My Paladin who could craft charged a small fee based on the time he could be helping those truly in need instead of crafting. He would take this extra amount (which was 15% market) and tithe it since he noticed his companions (even a cleric) never seemed to tithe at all. They knew he was charging over, they knew where it was going and they knew it was his way of making up for missed opportunity and forcing his groups to tithe. (muhahahahahahahaha) This way their moneys went to OTHER good causes since our group was not the only good cause in the world at the time.

So I think there are cases where good characters can charge with no moral issue involved. Again, as stated above it kinda depends on the moral principle and as Revel says, the game perspective one has.

cdglantern, I absolutely agree that there are people who BELIEVE that doing this has no moral implications.

I am not one of them. Sorry. I do believe that characters who do this are jerk characters. And I would treat them that way in game.

That's my OPINION. There is surely a small chance that I might be wrong about that.

But I don't think so. And that's not the way I play.

Which is what the OP ASKED PEOPLE.


Adamantine Dragon wrote:
cdglantern wrote:

To AD.

I actually do not think you HAVE to be evil and or neutral to charge cost.

I have had character BUY items at cost for others party memebers just because the item would make them so cool.

Others I have had charge a small fee.

My Paladin who could craft charged a small fee based on the time he could be helping those truly in need instead of crafting. He would take this extra amount (which was 15% market) and tithe it since he noticed his companions (even a cleric) never seemed to tithe at all. They knew he was charging over, they knew where it was going and they knew it was his way of making up for missed opportunity and forcing his groups to tithe. (muhahahahahahahaha) This way their moneys went to OTHER good causes since our group was not the only good cause in the world at the time.

So I think there are cases where good characters can charge with no moral issue involved. Again, as stated above it kinda depends on the moral principle and as Revel says, the game perspective one has.

cdglantern, I absolutely agree that there are people who BELIEVE that doing this has no moral implications.

I am not one of them. Sorry. I do believe that characters who do this are jerk characters. And I would treat them that way in game.

That's my OPINION. There is surely a small chance that I might be wrong about that.

But I don't think so. And that's not the way I play.

Which is what the OP ASKED PEOPLE.

I don't understand the need for capital letters near the end there!

So with my paladin example. Is that inappropriate? Is that a jerk character, in your opinion of course?


cdglantern wrote:
dragonfire8974 wrote:


now this isn't something i would have a problem with, donating the profits or putting it to something that doesn't increase the characters power, and doesn't cause the crafter to have more items or wealth than the other characters

Cool, Good to know. So your real issue is a balance issue?

in a sense. my character wouldn't have a problem with your character (any character that I would create) doing this as well because you're not seeking to take advantage of me.

in a metagame sense, this is something i would find interesting and would be willing to take the wealth hit to help with the RP of your character even if the GM doesn't compensate.

EDIT: or charging a truely trivial amount, like 1% works for me too as that turns out to be 8k at 20th level and more of an RP tool than a wealth gaining tool

the idea of the crafter getting 50% more wealth than the rest of the party (assuming a 10% fee and a party of 4) is something the GM will have to compensate for, but making a challenge for the crafter is going to be different than making a challenge for a low wealth party


Pathfinder Maps, Pawns Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber

I'm just not getting it. If I charge 10% above crafting costs while making items for the other three characters in the party, it may work itself out to me having 30% more wealth than the norm.

However, everyone of them has 50% more wealth than the norm through my efforts.

Who's abusing who now?

I'm sure someone could come up with an opposing argument of equal credibility. In the end, it's all about perspective and play style, as I said earlier.


Selgard wrote:

[f I understand SKR's post correctly (and I may not, since we generally ignore it and WBL anyway)-

The crafter gets the benefit of his crafting calculated into his WBL.
if he turns 2k gold into a 4k item he gets credited 2k. since he has the feat.

The barbarian has a 4k axe crafted by the wizard though- his WBL is up 4k not 2k. Because its worth 4k. HE doesn't get the WBL benefit of the feat.

So what happens WBL wise (by raw)
barbarian pays 2200 and is charged 4k.
The wizard pockets 200.
When the wizard crafts, he gets 50% off every item he crafts towards his WBL. And he gets to keep 10% of whatever he crafts for the PC's.

See how he's double dipping? His feat is already getting him half WBL just for taking the feat and crafting his stuff. The Barbarian is getting penalized 4k and the wizard is coming out way, way ahead.
The wizard is not only getting the 50% off for crafting his own gear but also getting 10% from anyone he crafts for.
He ends up *way, way* ahead of the group.
assuming he took something sensible for his class like craft wondrous items and not craft rod. (taking craft rod as the lone feat largely removes all the fus since nearly no one wants one anyway and the wizard probably isn't investing enough of his overall wealth into it to matter. Compared to say, craft wondrous items for the wizard or arms/armor for the melee'ish cleric.

You're quick to point out haw the Wizard is profiting from the Barbarian, but don't you see how the Barbarian is profiting from the Wizard?

The Barbarian just got a 4000gp axe for 2200gp. His character wealth just jumped 1800gp. The Wizard, on the other hand, only made a 200gp profit. Even if he crafts to double that profit, it's still only 400gp. Much less than what the Barbarian got.

Quote:
Why isn't making the group stronger good enough for the crafter? Why does he also have to swipe an extra 10% from the group? That doesn't make any sense to me.

Why isn't getting an item at a discount good enough? Why does he also have to keep all of the profit for himself instead of sharing it with the crafter? That doesn't make any sense to me.

Expecting crafters to craft at half price is just as selfish as crafters expecting their party to pay full price. Both from an in-game and meta-game standpoint


dragonfire8974 wrote:
cdglantern wrote:
dragonfire8974 wrote:


now this isn't something i would have a problem with, donating the profits or putting it to something that doesn't increase the characters power, and doesn't cause the crafter to have more items or wealth than the other characters

Cool, Good to know. So your real issue is a balance issue?

in a sense. my character wouldn't have a problem with your character (any character that I would create) doing this as well because you're not seeking to take advantage of me.

in a metagame sense, this is something i would find interesting and would be willing to take the wealth hit to help with the RP of your character even if the GM doesn't compensate.

EDIT: or charging a truely trivial amount, like 1% works for me too as that turns out to be 8k at 20th level and more of an RP tool than a wealth gaining tool

the idea of the crafter getting 50% more wealth than the rest of the party (assuming a 10% fee and a party of 4) is something the GM will have to compensate for, but making a challenge for the crafter is going to be different than making a challenge for a low wealth party

Cool. Everything you say here seems very reasonable. We would game well together.


Ravingdork wrote:

I'm just not getting it. If I charge 10% above crafting costs while making items for the other three characters in the party, it may work itself out to me having 30% more wealth than the norm.

However, everyone of them has 50% more wealth than the norm through my efforts.

Who's abusing who now?

I'm sure someone could come up with an opposing argument of equal credibility. In the end, it's all about perspective and play style, as I said earlier.

my post read '50% more than the rest of the party' and it is a rounding.

at 13th level, (which i'm posting this for now the 30th time) the standard is 140k

a crafter would have 182k while the rest of the party would have 126k in wealth


cdglantern wrote:


Cool. Everything you say here seems very reasonable. We would game well together.

thankyou :)

i'm more easygoing than i sound on this forum


Also, charging 1% may be the way to negotiate this with both sides of the issue. This way neither side feels taken advantage of. 1% is arbitrary, certain groups may find different % appropriate and if we learn anything from this topic it SHOULD be to discuss these things with your group.

I never had with my current group of 10. I have now asked 8 of them their opinions and we are lucky because 7 of those 8 all agree on 1 of the 2 sides.


Adamantine Dragon wrote:

As I have said all along Revel, if you are playing an evil, or potentially even a neutral character, then this behavior is justified. But then so is the behavior of the other evil or neutral party members who say "oh yeah? well buddy, here's my menu!"

Good characters as part of an heroic party, this is uncool.

Even during down time when there is no one shouting for help and you aren’t adventuring? I’ve never considered good meaning must work for free. You have stricter standards than I. <shrug>

And just to be clear when I say not adventuring I mean between adventures not in town (if it matters).

dragonfire8974 wrote:
but you're not really losing two weeks. you're losing 4 hours a day, which is trivial in game. now i'll admit, that's a good chunk of time every day. but as someone else said, even with the highest profession check (dc30), you can only make 3d6 gold per day. so time, even for the most expert of people, isn't worth 100 gold a day. but if the other people aren't contributing to help you out while you're helping them out, then they're not good companions, and charging, while i think 10% is too much from a gameplay standpoint, becomes less of an issue

In game sure but I consider 4 hours a day a large chuck of time for someone to ask for every day for weeks. Also I never said only 4 hours a day I was thinking in town working for 8 hours a day for a couple weeks. As for what fee is reasonable I didn’t quote an amount or percentage. And while I think 10% is fair I run in a high magic world and do wages differently (house rule). In a normally RAW game I may ask for signifiacantly less idk.

dragonfire8974 wrote:
real life examples aren't applicable because most of us can't do what our characters can

That can be a cop out. The entire game is fantasy but that doesn’t mean we ignore things such as gravity. Magic might let us do exactly that and damage for falling is pathetic to a high level character but we don’t throw gravity out altogether. So real life examples are fine but like everything subjective. Those that play from a “real-life” perspective are simply trying to envision the fantasy world in question and play as they believe the character would act if it were real.


Pathfinder Maps, Pawns Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber
Quantum Steve wrote:
Expecting crafters to craft at half price is just as selfish as crafters expecting their party to pay full price. Both from an in-game and meta-game standpoint.

And this is the rub of it I think.

Can we come up with a mathematical formula that evenly disperses the effective party wealth among the party, assuming the crafter crafts for everyone else?


Ravingdork wrote:
Quantum Steve wrote:
Expecting crafters to craft at half price is just as selfish as crafters expecting their party to pay full price. Both from an in-game and meta-game standpoint.

And this is the rub of it I think.

Can we come up with a mathematical formula that evenly disperses the effective party wealth among the party, assuming the crafter crafts for everyone else?

Well I'm not going to try, to tired, but if anyone does want to try you'll have to set a standard gold wealth vs item wealth first. That is to say what percentage of the parties incoming wealth is from gold vs from found magic items. Without that bit of info it'd be hard... ok unless it was part of the equation. Grrr... now you got me curious and it's going to bug me <glares at Ravingdork> ;P


Revel wrote:
dragonfire8974 wrote:
but you're not really losing two weeks. you're losing 4 hours a day, which is trivial in game. now i'll admit, that's a good chunk of time every day. but as someone else said, even with the highest profession check (dc30), you can only make 3d6 gold per day. so time, even for the most expert of people, isn't worth 100 gold a day. but if the other people aren't contributing to help you out while you're helping them out, then they're not good companions, and charging, while i think 10% is too much from a gameplay standpoint, becomes less of an issue

In game sure but I consider 4 hours a day a large chuck of time for someone to ask for every day for weeks. Also I never said only 4 hours a day I was thinking in town working for 8 hours a day for a couple weeks. As for what fee is reasonable I didn’t quote an amount or percentage. And while I think 10% is fair I run in a high magic world and do wages differently (house rule). In a normally RAW game I may ask for signifiacantly less idk.

dragonfire8974 wrote:


real life examples aren't applicable because most of us can't do what our characters can
That can be a cop out. The entire game is fantasy but that doesn’t mean we ignore things such as gravity. Magic might let us do exactly that and damage for falling is pathetic to a high level character but we don’t throw gravity out altogether. So real life examples are fine but like everything subjective. Those that play from a “real-life” perspective are simply trying to envision the fantasy world in question and play as they believe the character would act if it were real

ring of sustenance allows you to sleep only 2 hrs a day, and thus you can have 20 hours a day to work. 4 hours spent crafting allows you the same 16 hours a day that every other crafter. but even if you're crafting 8 hours a day, you have 12 hours to pursue other things. which you can do a full day worth of stuff. but as a crafter, you should be able to afford the +5 to the DC to rush craft things to craft 1000g in a 4hr day. still, as a GM, how would you handle a single character that has around 50% more wealth than the rest of the party? but then again, if your pcs don't craft much, then that's really not a problem and my issue with the 10% fee gets muted because the crafter may not be making all that much money off of the party and may only have 10% more than the others. i still don't think its right, but it isn't game breaking.

I can't say that 4hrs is trivial to your character because that's dictating how you should play and is wrong. but i can tell you that in game terms it is trivial. if you're doing something for the RP effect, it shouldn't give your character that large of a boon over the rest of the party. it becomes exploitative when it is that much.

I do understand that the in game characters are real, and it doesn't matter how many HP you have, if someone pulls out a sword and stabs you with it, they are trying to kill you even if they only manage to inflict 1 hp. but as i stated above, if you're doing something for the RP value, then it should not give you 50% more wealth than the rest of the party. I understand that PCs are real people, but that is suspended for many different occasions. being hit for over half your HP should be frightening, but we don't become shaken or panicked. coming across a field of rotting dead is terrifying and disgusting, but... etc. so there is a balancing effort between being real people and not. using it as an excuse to profit off the other pcs something that isn't trivial is really just and excuse to have higher numbers than the other people or more wealth. and as i explained earlier, 10% is not trivial


I have no problem with the party caster charging a fee for magic item creation if he has no problem with the party fighter charging for guarding the caster while he sleeps, or the cleric charging for healing, bard for inspiring confidence, party diplomancer for using the diplomacy skill, etc. And treasure should be divided by whomever kills the most monsters. You know, the ones who strike the killing blows should get the most, not anyone who paralyzed the monsters or buffed up the front-liners, because we're all charging for services now, right? Because just because the players are friends doesn't mean the party members have to be. It's not like your characters' lives may depend on each other or that helping out a party member may help out you someday.

Besides, it would be selfish for anyone to suggest otherwise.

Dang freeloading non-casters.


I normally find Adamantine Dargon's posts to be quite impartial and informative. And then we broach the topic of crafting. :)

Dude - it's a play-style thing. No, really, it is.

Liberty's Edge

notabot wrote:

I find the behavior of party members that wish to steal, extort, or threaten other members because they won't do what they want disgusting.

So is profiteering.


Revel wrote:
Ravingdork wrote:
Quantum Steve wrote:
Expecting crafters to craft at half price is just as selfish as crafters expecting their party to pay full price. Both from an in-game and meta-game standpoint.

And this is the rub of it I think.

Can we come up with a mathematical formula that evenly disperses the effective party wealth among the party, assuming the crafter crafts for everyone else?

Well I'm not going to try, to tired, but if anyone does want to try you'll have to set a standard gold wealth vs item wealth first. That is to say what percentage of the parties incoming wealth is from gold vs from found magic items. Without that bit of info it'd be hard... ok unless it was part of the equation. Grrr... now you got me curious and it's going to bug me <glares at Ravingdork> ;P

well what we do in my group (i'm the crafter) is we go through and see who can use it, and give it to them unless they would rather have cash. then we sell everything and split the money evenly, which is usually then handed back to me to craft things for people

EDIT: this happens when anyone sells something. they give it to me, i sell it, and we pool the money and split it evenly. they give it to me because i know a lot of values off of the top of my head and am not to lazy to look up the item's worth

Liberty's Edge

Quantum Steve wrote:


The Barbarian just got a 4000gp axe for 2200gp. His character wealth just jumped 1800gp. The Wizard, on the other hand, only made a 200gp profit. Even if he crafts to double that profit, it's still only 400gp. Much less than what the Barbarian got.

A

nd yet no doubt the gold the barbarian spent was presumably part of his share, same as the wizard's portion of same. So the barbarian is spending his profit to benefit the whole party. And the wizard is making a profit from it. In fact, the wizard is giving himself a latent bonus at the barbarian's share of treasure.


@dragonfire8974: I may have missed something somewhere, where is the 50% more wealth then the rest of the party coming from?


Revel wrote:
@dragonfire8974: I may have missed something somewhere, where is the 50% more wealth then the rest of the party coming from?

assuming a party of 4

3 get a -10 percent. so 3 are at 90%
the crafter gets 30% so the crafter is up at 130%. while it isn't exactly 50% more, it is very close. exactly 50% more would be 135%


Ravingdork wrote:
Quantum Steve wrote:
Expecting crafters to craft at half price is just as selfish as crafters expecting their party to pay full price. Both from an in-game and meta-game standpoint.

And this is the rub of it I think.

Can we come up with a mathematical formula that evenly disperses the effective party wealth among the party, assuming the crafter crafts for everyone else?

Yeah.

I my first post some pages back I posited that a 50% charge over cost (that's 25% off market price) would ensure even dispersal. I later realized that that figure only works with a 2 person party.

The formula I subsequently came up with is: (100/n)% over cost; where n is the size of your party.

So for a standard 4 person party a crafter should charge (100/4)% or 25% over cost.

That is, he should charge 625gp for every 1,000gp of the market price.

So if all three members asked for a 1,000gp item, they would each make (1000-625) 375gp, and the crafter would make (125*3) 375gp.

Since crafters only count crafted items at cost, it doesn't matter what the crafter does with his profit.


Quantum Steve wrote:
Ravingdork wrote:
Quantum Steve wrote:
Expecting crafters to craft at half price is just as selfish as crafters expecting their party to pay full price. Both from an in-game and meta-game standpoint.

And this is the rub of it I think.

Can we come up with a mathematical formula that evenly disperses the effective party wealth among the party, assuming the crafter crafts for everyone else?

Yeah.

I my first post some pages back I posited that a 50% charge over cost (that's 25% off market price) would ensure even dispersal. I later realized that that figure only works with a 2 person party.

The formula I subsequently came up with is: (100/n)% over cost; where n is the size of your party.

So for a standard 4 person party a crafter should charge (100/4)% or 25% over cost.

That is, he should charge 625gp for every 1,000gp of the market price.

So if all three members asked for a 1,000gp item, they would each make (1000-625) 375gp, and the crafter would make (125*3) 375gp.

Since crafters only count crafted items at cost, it doesn't matter what the crafter does with his profit.

but the problem is, when the crafter crafts things for themselves, they catch up all the way


Achilles wrote:
Quantum Steve wrote:


The Barbarian just got a 4000gp axe for 2200gp. His character wealth just jumped 1800gp. The Wizard, on the other hand, only made a 200gp profit. Even if he crafts to double that profit, it's still only 400gp. Much less than what the Barbarian got.

A

nd yet no doubt the gold the barbarian spent was presumably part of his share, same as the wizard's portion of same. So the barbarian is spending his profit to benefit the whole party. And the wizard is making a profit from it. In fact, the wizard is giving himself a latent bonus at the barbarian's share of treasure.

How is the whole party benefiting from the Barbarian's axe? They all can't use it at the same time. Or are you suggesting that the Barbarian will use the increase in combat effectiveness received from his axe for the benefit of the party?

In that case, I suggest that the Wizard will spend his profit to buy and craft items that will improve his own combat effectiveness for a roughly equivalent benefit to the party.

On a side note, what's this about the Barbarian's share of the treasure? If anything, the Wizard is increasing the Barbarian's share of the treasure by giving the Barbarian an item more valuable than the gold given to the Wizard.

Shadow Lodge

This argument (all 645 posts at the time of my posting) is why I either don't build crafters, or only craft for myself (treating it the same as writing scrolls for myself.)
Then nobody feels ripped off and I don't feel that my wizard is using his time unprofitably.


Chuckling Irish Bard wrote:

This argument (all 645 posts at the time of my posting) is why I either don't build crafters, or only craft for myself (treating it the same as writing scrolls for myself.)

Then nobody feels ripped off and I don't feel that my wizard is using his time unprofitably.

i'm sorry i have contributed to that. i find crafters fun and i'm sorry i have turned you off to that aspect of the gameplay


Chuckling Irish Bard wrote:

This argument (all 645 posts at the time of my posting) is why I either don't build crafters, or only craft for myself (treating it the same as writing scrolls for myself.)

Then nobody feels ripped off and I don't feel that my wizard is using his time unprofitably.

I've never actually played with anyone that thought getting an item at a discount wasn't a great deal, and that the crafter was entitled to a share of that.

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