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How do I discourage this kind of character-building?"Hey guys, I want to try a lower power game. I find it hard to challenge you when you all have 18s. Can we come up with a point buy or array where no one has higher than a 16?"
Leave it to you to Occam's Razor the hell out of any thread you visit.
...Catch Phrase,
-Chris
Strength is a high powered stat at first level. It effectively doubles your damage output, and increases your chance to hit by 25%, making your BAB irrelevant. It will wear off at higher levels.
Its a self correcting problem. Throw tougher stuff at them, they'll get more xp, they'll level past where this becomes neccesary
If you're the GM, just throw fewer combats at them. Let them face off against diplomatic or trap based challenges. Force them to use their other stats, have a chase, and so on. There's a number of different options you can go with.
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Dropping the point buy to 15 won't reduce high stats - it'll just lower the low ones. Die rolling might reduce them but might not also. I like the idea of using the elite array, but my players howl so I'm just resigned to them just having high stats.
Edit: misspoke slightly
We're all about the meta. I don't even belong in this thread, I have an 18 Dex!
Only one?
Shaddup, you grew into the second one.
I understand the OP's frustration with high strength at level one, but lots of things are wonky at level one, and level one can be dangerous. At level one if you catch a crit from a x3 or x4 weapon you are likely to die on the spot. So 4 or 5 level 1 orc warriors with greataxes are still a big deal.
Also, after lots of playing and gming for several different types of characters, I have come to the conclusion that a high stat array helps balance the game slightly. You see at the mid and later levels casters really attain alot of power, and they really only need one good stat. Martial characters need more good stats to round their character out. Especially when it comes to monks. Monks are terrible in a low point buy game, and benefit most from a high point buy.
And from a realism perspective (I know I know its fantasy!), people wearing armor all day and swinging heavy weapons are gonna be some tough folk. I am reading a book called "Convict Conditoning." It gives some history on how bodyweight exercises were used throughout history to create exceptionally strong individuals. Its really not hard to get strong, and I am sure it is much easier when your life depends on it.
So I say don't worry about it, let em be strong. At around 8th level when they start dealing with casters they will need every ounce of that strength to survive!
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18 at level one is for the person who doesn't understand point buy... or their GM doesn't run long games.
I never drop an 18 in the bucket when a 17 is an 18 at level 4. Gives me like, 3 points to put in Con or something-- boom, that's a 14 at level 8.
That's powergaming for the future, man.
18 at level one is for the person who doesn't understand point buy... or their GM doesn't run long games.
I never drop an 18 in the bucket when a 17 is an 18 at level 4. Gives me like, 3 points to put in Con or something-- boom, that's a 14 at level 8.
That's powergaming for the future, man.
Depends on what class you play and what you want to do with that class.
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Powergame for the future is nice, until you play PFS (or
Most standar campaigns I have been in). In PFS 1 character gets to see level 12 (most end at 11, and even that 1 gets to play 3 modules at 12). Home campaigns, in my experience, tend to end about the same or just a little further out.
So you expect 2 lifetime stat-bumps, meaning an 18 will be a 20. A 17 will be an 18, then you bump something else.
Stats also mean the most at 1-5. After that magic items start to blur the lines a little (but the 18 Str is far outdamaging the 16, and every point of DCs help).
So it's just the way the game plays. And PFS seems to acknowledge now most players will have that 18, and are gradually making modules more powerful to comp.
I'd just go with it; it would take about a 5 point build for me to not have an 18 (and even at 5 points my wizard would have an 18 int). You can give out pre-assigned points if you really care, but people like to make characters that are fun / useful to play, so they do maximize good stats.
Pathfinder is designed to where a challenging encounter for 4 characters is CR = APL + 1 using 15 point buy, following fairly closely the WBL guidelines, and played by "casual" players with moderate experience. Any deviance from that seems to make things considerably easy (in my experience).
The book says 5 players should fight an CR = APL + 1 encounter as a challenging encounter. That *can* be true, but if the party has 3 or more "power-gamers" (defined here as players making optimal choices for their characters consistently), 5 players versus CR = APL + 1 is generally an easy encounter. 4 optimally played characters versus APL + 1 is also usually an easy encounter.
So any advantages you give a party against a baseline CR (e.g. a boost to point buy or extra wealth) can be dramatic if you have a few "power-gamers". The better your group is, the *less* advantages you should give them.
I started a new game a few weeks ago, level 1, pretty standard stuff (20 point buy). There's a magus, a ranger, a fighter and a samurai. The only one without an 18 in strength is the magus. This has happened a few times. Not just with warriors and strength, but also with wizards and intelligence, sorcerers and charisma, etc.
And I am really getting tired of it. I can't pit standard enemies against these guys. I'm forced to throw things like bugbears against a level 1 party because they just shred everything else. And I do understand that it's a party of warriors, and that they normally shred enemies, but it's happened before with high save DCs and ridiculous rogue ACs.
How do I discourage this kind of character-building? I understand that everyone wants to be effective in combat. But "effective in combat" does not equal "meat grinder with legs." A warrior can be effective with a 14 or 16 at level 1.
Thanks in advance,
...Catch Phrase,
-Chris
Welcome to gaming! lol
In short, you aren't going to discourage this kind of character building, because they aren't your characters. If the party is capable of shredding encounters of a certain CR, bump up the CR. Or, zero in on what exactly their strengths are, and occasionally throw them up against something that nullifies that strength. Only occasionally though, you don't want to come off like you're purposely sabotaging their game, or out to get someone specifically.
Or, lower the point-buy to 15 instead of 20. That'll make someone starting off with an 18 a LOT harder to do, and less desired.
No two groups of characters are going behave the same, so what challenges on group may not be a challenge to another. What you find interesting and challenging, your players may treat like a speed bump. In my opinion, this is one of the things that I find so amazing about table-top RPG's versus just playing a computer RPG solo; the human factor always being a surprise.
Or, just tell your players you're tired of them being good at what they do, and tone it down a little. That'll go over great. /sarcasm
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Some people are suggesting lowering the point buy, some are suggesting using an array, some even say use dice rolls, but to hell with those who mentioned dice rolls, you want to know what's NOT fun? being stuck with a sub-par character, due to previously mentioned dice rolls, that is out shined by everyone else at the table because they rolled a bit better than norm you rolled a bit under, but not enough for the GM to tell you to re-roll.... yes i'm bitter
ANYWAY, where was i? oh yes better systems, if you still want to use 20 points, some time ago painlord made a thread that contained every possible 20 point buy combination (sorted by highest score), there is even a google document with it in excel spread sheet form, i'd suggest that people go get that, it's been very handy for me. Anyway, using that make you're own arrays if the players are not comfortable with using the elite ray. hell even give them a few arrays to pick from to allow for some flexibility
and you know what, i'll throw the dice rolling guys a bone, have everyone at the table roll some dice, and make a single array for everyone to use, randomness while keeping all the players at the table on a level playing field.
if you're wanting to stick with the point buy system, perhaps ban people from dropping things to a 7, or if you want to go really crazy with it, don't allow any stat (before racial modifiers) to be below 10. Not allowing anything to be dropped in a 20 point should make harder to get an 18 at level 1 (with an exception for full casters though)
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Make a copy of each of their character sheets - change the name, sex and 'oppose' the alignments of each - Hey Presto a 'mirror image' adventuring group of the troupe - have them 'meet' the party in a bar, street or temple, anywhere where gaurds or militai can step in and help or have them meet them in the wilderness or dungeon pursuing the same mission or item that your players are - chances are the players will 'roll initiative first and ask questions later' - it's worked for me as GM on several occasions
Level the mirror image party as the party levels up and just keep changing the names....
or get the players to roll stats and start from scratch...
or go play Paranoia and get your jollies as a DM that way :D
There are a few things you can do:
1) Let them play the game they want to play and you learn to adapt to that style. Of course, this is assuming they want to play a more hack and slash style of game. They may be just adapting to your style of GMing. They may be thinking that they need the 18s to survive. You may not even realize that this is the type of game you've been running for them.
2) Change up the encounters. Strength scores of 18 aren't much help when dealing with traps, spells, and social encounters.
3) Feel free to use poisons and effects that target Strength. It won't kill them and it will bring them down temporarily. They will figure out how to deal with it.
Personally, I let my players create what they want. I run 20 point buy and I give them max hit points at every level. The party started at level 1 and have just hit 20. The barbarian has over 600 hit points when he rages and deals 3d6+99 damage on each hit unless he charges, then he can deal a little more with the rhino hide. Doesn't faze me at all. If he can't hit the target (some form of concealment like displacement or invisibility), then his high strength doesn't help. If I use casters effectively, he can be dealt with by targeting his weakest save (reflex). If I use terrain, he can't charge. I also throw some big creatures in there so he can feel powerful. There are plenty of ways you can deal with the "problem" or you can embrace it and let them have their fun.
. . .some even say use dice rolls, but to hell with those who mentioned dice rolls, you want to know what's NOT fun? being stuck with a sub-par character, due to previously mentioned dice rolls, that is out shined by everyone else at the table because they rolled a bit better than norm you rolled a bit under, but not enough for the GM to tell you to re-roll.... yes i'm bitter
Skerek, you nailed it! Not only isn't it fun to be saddled with crappy (relative to the party) ability scores, but being the outlier the other way around can suck too.
By the time I was done rolling, there were already groans and eye-rolls going around the group. The very people who had sought me out with an invitation when I returned to town after an extended trip already resented my (as yet unmade) character's attributes. While I was sitting with books and trying to decide what kind of character to make, verious players had already calculated the advantages my character would have over theirs, and were lobbying for me to not play the same class as them.
Imagine playing a campaign where the rest of the group is jealous of your character from before it is even introduced to the party.
. . .some time ago painlord made a thread that contained every possible 20 point buy combination (sorted by highest score), there is even a google document with it in excel spread sheet form, i'd suggest that people go get that, it's been very handy for me.
Do you have a link for that? I'd love to see it.
and you know what, i'll throw the dice rolling guys a bone, have everyone at the table roll some dice, and make a single array for everyone to use, randomness while keeping all the players at the table on a level playing field.
Back in the days when lots of players insisted on rolling rather than point-buy, I used this method. It was very successful for many years. It gives the players who really want to roll dice the chance to do so, but gives me a party of character built on a level playing field.
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I started a new game a few weeks ago, level 1, pretty standard stuff (20 point buy). There's a magus, a ranger, a fighter and a samurai. The only one without an 18 in strength is the magus. This has happened a few times. Not just with warriors and strength, but also with wizards and intelligence, sorcerers and charisma, etc.
And I am really getting tired of it. I can't pit standard enemies against these guys. I'm forced to throw things like bugbears against a level 1 party because they just shred everything else. And I do understand that it's a party of warriors, and that they normally shred enemies, but it's happened before with high save DCs and ridiculous rogue ACs.
How do I discourage this kind of character-building? I understand that everyone wants to be effective in combat. But "effective in combat" does not equal "meat grinder with legs." A warrior can be effective with a 14 or 16 at level 1.
Thanks in advance,
...Catch Phrase,
-Chris
18 in strength means saves are lacking... they will be sorry once you throw a few wizards at them. and dont pull punches, let them flounder and then make reference to balancing out their characters.
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. . .some time ago painlord made a thread that contained every possible 20 point buy combination (sorted by highest score), there is even a google document with it in excel spread sheet form, i'd suggest that people go get that, it's been very handy for me.Do you have a link for that? I'd love to see it.
I do not have a link for either, but if you give me your/an e-mail i can e-mail you spreadsheet i have. Although Painlords thread does get bumped back up every now and again, just keep an eye out for it.
and you know what, i'll throw the dice rolling guys a bone, have everyone at the table roll some dice, and make a single array for everyone to use, randomness while keeping all the players at the table on a level playing field.Back in the days when lots of players insisted on rolling rather than point-buy, I used this method. It was very successful for many years. It gives the players who really want to roll dice the chance to do so, but gives me a party of character built on a level playing field.
well i won't take credit for that idea i did see it around here some time ago and thought; damn that's a good idea
1. Use 15 point buy instead. (Remember, the CR system ASSUMES 15 point buy, so if you are allowing 20 point buy, by that alone you're going to NEED to up the challenge.)
2. Disallow any stat over 17 at level 1.
3. (And my favorite choice) -- Don't challenge them solely with combat. Get some intrigue thrown in there. Get in some puzzles, riddles, mazes, traps--things they can't just beat down with a strong enough fist. Pay attention to terrain limitations and use them--have your bugbears use trees for cover while they fire ranged weapons at them before approaching, use a rain storm to make spellcasting harder and firing ranged weapons difficult, etc. etc. etc. This game isn't and should not be all about melee combat. And if you disagree and you want it to be about melee combat than--yep, back to 1 or 2, or be used to attacking your PCs with +1-2 CR higher than the game recommends.
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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How do I discourage this kind of character-building? I understand that everyone wants to be effective in combat. But "effective in combat" does not equal "meat grinder with legs." A warrior can be effective with a 14 or 16 at level 1.
Thanks in advance,
...Catch Phrase,
-Chris
Chris,
What is it that is depressing you about the characters? Is it just that you don't feel like you're challenging them because they're able to grind through bigger foes?
Here's an idea. change descriptions. If they need a bugbear to give them a challenge instead of a human commoner with a scythe (a bit extreme example) then don't call 'em bugbears. Use bugbear stats, but call 'em "Angry human farmers."
Eventually as others have pointed out, the game will catch up with them. Then they can laugh about "Remember when that Dumb Farmer kicked our buts with a hoe?" and you can laugh too, knowing what it really was.
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1. Use 15 point buy instead. (Remember, the CR system ASSUMES 15 point buy, so if you are allowing 20 point buy, by that alone you're going to NEED to up the challenge.)
2. Disallow any stat over 17 at level 1.
3. (And my favorite choice) -- Don't challenge them solely with combat. Get some intrigue thrown in there. Get in some puzzles, riddles, mazes, traps--things they can't just beat down with a strong enough fist. Pay attention to terrain limitations and use them--have your bugbears use trees for cover while they fire ranged weapons at them before approaching, use a rain storm to make spellcasting harder and firing ranged weapons difficult, etc. etc. etc. This game isn't and should not be all about melee combat. And if you disagree and you want it to be about melee combat than--yep, back to 1 or 2, or be used to attacking your PCs with +1-2 CR higher than the game recommends.
totally agree with you apart from riddles and puzzles, put those in and you'll start to see meta gaming through the roof too
GM:"what walks on 4 feet in the morning, two feet in the afternoon and 3 feet in the evening?"
Player:"oh that's easy it's a-"
GM:"hang on a minute, how do you know this Mr 7 Int and Wis?"
but by all means if you can work out a way for the characters and not the players to solve a puzzle/riddle, then go nuts
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[grognard]
You're problem is your stat array! In my day, we didn't have this "point buy" nonsense! You rolled 3d6, in order. What you rolled is what you played with. If we rolled a 14, we were happy! Each class had a minumum ability score! If you rolled good enough to play a Paladin, we threw you a party!
Good times...
[/grognard]
I must admit that I don't see the problem here. The "elite" array in 3.5 had 15 as the highest stat -- +2 to that for racial bonus makes 17, only one point short of 18. If your players were really min-maxing, they would raise their strengths to 20 and have charisma scores of 7.
Still -- as others have mentioned, the main thing a high strength is good for is hitting enemies hard in melee. Defenses (hit points, AC, and saving throws) are a bit on the low side, but that is not noticeable if they are able to finish the fight quickly. How are these characters when it comes to fighting at range? Strength does not help much against archers or spellcasters who are able to keep their distance from the party.
DeathQuaker wrote:
3. (And my favorite choice) -- Don't challenge them solely with combat. Get some intrigue thrown in there. Get in some puzzles, riddles, mazes, traps--things they can't just beat down with a strong enough fist. Pay attention to terrain limitations and use them--have your bugbears use trees for cover while they fire ranged weapons at them before approaching, use a rain storm to make spellcasting harder and firing ranged weapons difficult, etc. etc. etc. This game isn't and should not be all about melee combat. And if you disagree and you want it to be about melee combat than--yep, back to 1 or 2, or be used to attacking your PCs with +1-2 CR higher than the game recommends.
This is an excellent solution as it encourages roleplaying rather than a meta-game response from the GM.
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A standard 20-point fighting min-max would be:
Str: 19
Int: 7
Wis: 12
Dex: 13
Con: 16
Chr: 7
Hardly low on defensive. For the tactical / tripper:
Str: 18
Int: 14
Wis: 12
Dex: 12
Con: 14
Chr: 7
For the Dwarf tank of doom (TM)
Str: 18
Int: 8
Wis: 14
Dex: 12
Con: 16
Chr: 5
Trade Cha for int and you have a solid pally in the tactician above.
Notice a trend? Fighting types aren't going to drop their saving throw attributes to min-max; they drop Int and Chr; which have minimal game impact (my tactical fighter maxed diplomacy, so at 5th level with trait is +6 with a 7 charisma; so can actually survive social encounters too).
To reiterate, 15 point buy will not eliminate 18s if players want them. Neither can dice rolls. Make them outliers, yes; eliminate them, no. The only way to ensure players don't have 18s is to forbid them by fiat. Have them use any method, just cap their max score (including racial bonus). There's nothing wrong with instituting a "table high score" rule.
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18 in strength means saves are lacking... they will be sorry once you throw a few wizards at them. and dont pull punches, let them flounder and then make reference to balancing out their characters.
A level 1 fighter with 18 strength can easily pull off a +4 will save with a combination of Iron Will, a will save trait, and a 12 wisdom score. Most wizards will not have that high a will save at level 1.
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yeah, i too am tired of these sub optimal characters who don't start with a 20 in their primary stat.
This is an excellent solution as it encourages roleplaying rather than a meta-game response from the GM.DeathQuaker wrote:
3. (And my favorite choice) -- Don't challenge them solely with combat. Get some intrigue thrown in there. Get in some puzzles, riddles, mazes, traps--things they can't just beat down with a strong enough fist. Pay attention to terrain limitations and use them--have your bugbears use trees for cover while they fire ranged weapons at them before approaching, use a rain storm to make spellcasting harder and firing ranged weapons difficult, etc. etc. etc. This game isn't and should not be all about melee combat. And if you disagree and you want it to be about melee combat than--yep, back to 1 or 2, or be used to attacking your PCs with +1-2 CR higher than the game recommends.
But the problem with that solution is that you have to REALLY REALLY REALLY push noncombat stuff to make more balanced stats a smart solution for a player -- and you also have to have noncombat encounters that the party will genuinely care about losing and/or can kill them, or, again, prioritizing combat is the smart idea even for a roleplayer. I can be a lot more invested in the story and my roleplay if I'm not on my third character for the session, so building one that will survive is at a premium.
Let's say I'm a fighter and half the encounters that can either kill me or heap so much bad stuff into my life that I consider it equivalent to dying are noncombat encounters. That's a higher percentage than any long-running D&D/PF game I've seen reaches, but let's go with it. Logically I might then be expected to invest only half of my stat points in 20 point buy into STR, which... amounts to an 18 in that stat.
TL;DR: It's prohibitively hard to make even, say, 4 points of CHR as important to a fighter as 2 points of STR.
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Ballroom situations don't encourage no 18s. They encourage paladins and summoners and sorcererors, all of whom have 18s (the paladin has a 14 Cha and 18 Str) to show up. PFS encourages high diplomacy, but 7 statted characters do just fine; they just invest in diplomacy / bluff to deal with the RP encounters.
And Pathfinder is made as a combat game; other systems handle strictly social modules far better.
Im on the complete other side I want every character in my game to start with at least one eighteen. Thats why I dont use point buys
If I have three stats on a character I want to raise with 20 point buy I usuually go 16 14 14 with +2 going to the 16. Or if I have more stats I want to raise I can do 14 14 14 14 10 10 or. In 15 point buy I tend to dump things below ten more.
And Pathfinder is made as a combat game; other systems handle strictly social modules far better.
Yup -- it's called amateur theater. ;-D
[grognard]
You're problem is your stat array! In my day, we didn't have this "point buy" nonsense! You rolled 3d6, in order. What you rolled is what you played with. If we rolled a 14, we were happy! Each class had a minumum ability score! If you rolled good enough to play a Paladin, we threw you a party!
Good times...
[/grognard]
HA! HAHA! Me actually once rolled an 18/85 strength ! Buying an 18 is for wussys;) Stat 20+ ? Art thou a Demigod ? Deva-touched ? Sorry, oversensitive munchkin alarm;)
To the OP:
What jumped at me was that you have 3 strength-grunts and 1 combat-oriented caster in your group...? Of course they´ll slaughter everything in their path. Lots of other ways to challenge them, as mentioned, archers, traps, riddles, casters and propably most effective: dominating one of them.
As an afterthought: what are their other stats?
I started a new game a few weeks ago, level 1, pretty standard stuff (20 point buy). There's a magus, a ranger, a fighter and a samurai. The only one without an 18 in strength is the magus. This has happened a few times. Not just with warriors and strength, but also with wizards and intelligence, sorcerers and charisma, etc.
And I am really getting tired of it. I can't pit standard enemies against these guys. I'm forced to throw things like bugbears against a level 1 party because they just shred everything else. And I do understand that it's a party of warriors, and that they normally shred enemies, but it's happened before with high save DCs and ridiculous rogue ACs.
How do I discourage this kind of character-building? I understand that everyone wants to be effective in combat. But "effective in combat" does not equal "meat grinder with legs." A warrior can be effective with a 14 or 16 at level 1.
Thanks in advance,
...Catch Phrase,
-Chris
Instead of giving your players a point buy give them the elite array.
That is a 8, a 10, a 12 a 13, a 14 and a 15 for starting stats.
Its a 15 point buy, should work fine.
Um... I might get smacked for suggesting this, but if you're running a homebrew story, you could make it less about fighting and throw in some more puzzle stuff, where skill checks or clever uses of spells get you hints. Challenges that can't get murdered through. That and give opportunities to get stuff/allies/favors in a similar manner.
If you have rewards for having a character with a personality, the players will want to be something more than a dude with a sword. At least, that's been my experience.
I don't see an issue, 18 isn't bad it could be 20 as others have posted. I'd expect an 18 in single attribute dependent class. Like if you have have Two Handed Fighter Archetype. They don't really need anything but strength. So it wouldn't surprise me to see a 15 point build with the following:
Str 18 (+2 racial 10 pts)
Dex 13 (3 pts)
Con 12 (2 pts)
Int 10 (0 pts)
Wis 12 (2 pts)
Chr 8 (-2 pts)
To me this is quite reasonable.
If an straight forward encounter is too easy, try to alter the terain.
A simple encounter versus some kobolds (CR 1/3) can be a very hard one if your fighting in small tunnels (maybe their tunnels > traps), or simply let them fight on a narrow bridge etc. Use the creature intelligence etc. challenge the player not by their damage per round but by other things (skills, riddles etc.)
Everything which make the combat stay away from "field of battle" scenario.
Trust me, I and my DM did it a few times in the past and this were the most awesome encounters we ever fought.
But be sure that I'm not attempting to hinder their fun...
My goal is to make everything enjoyable, not to facilitate the GM vs PC mentality...
So hopefully mixing things up will make the game a little more interesting for...
This is good to hear. Beware of player expectations.
I am a player in a campaign where the GM has set 15 point buy and low magic, where our other games are 25+ and high magic. The story is great - Sherwood Forest, fighting against the unfair taxes for the people. However, we are not enjoying it. At level 3 we have no access to MW let alone magic. We have no potions. The wizard has trouble filling his spells. We cannot have heavy armour. We cannot spend the years between levelling using the Craft we were forced to take if we wanted armour. Yet the enemy wears at least breastplate, wielding greatswords at us.
In short, the GM is trying to run a gritty, realistic game and we want cinematic heroics and high fantasy. We the players have decided to not play that game any more (and I get the feeling it is my job to tell the GM. Perhaps it can wait another day or two - today is the GM's birthday.)
