Sleep-Walker's page

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That game is progressing.

One other player engaged me in a discussion about whether or not we could trust another PC. I steered that conversation to this topic and we discussed my plan. He ended up agreeing with me.

I also think that the Fast Stealth Rogue Talent should reduce the -10 maybe to a -5.


This game is a once a month kind of game. We have played one game since and I have not acted yet. I have however, had an interesting roleplay by email discussion with another player in which I included him in my plans. It was a good discussion and he ended up agreeing with me.

I think I am going to do it, but I am going to delay until the last moment to do it.

I absolutely do have enough spellcraft to know that.

I though it was a good balance for my UMD.

I and my character believe that removing the NPC is best for the good of all. This is not petty and I don't want to kill her.

I believe that revealing something to players that their characters don't know is bad storytelling.
Meta-gaming happens in many ways, for one we only play once a month or so, so keeping knowledge separate can get confusing.
When you know the answer to a riddle it is really easy to figure out the method which breaks the riddle.
If we tell the other players, but not the PCs then some level of meta-gaming is bound to occur.

I for one LOVE books and movies with unexpected twists and when someone tells me the twist in advance I get frustrated because I want to experience that twist with the main character Telling the PCs is a SPOILER to the reveal. I don't see a difference between a spoiler for a DND campaign and a spoiler for a movie. I believe that characters affect the campaign world and their secrets should be revealed by players and their characters at the same time. You should also think that this is a long term project not a one session bluff.

The last time this NPC was kidnapped the party did X, Y, and Z. My plan covers those eventualities, however, my plan also has holes. If the players know what I did they will see what those holes are. Add that to the fact that there are clones of this NPC out there so if the players go off hunting the NPC they will find clones. The clones are what makes this whole thing so ingenius.

My character is CN. I was wondering how long before alignment would raise its ugly head.

My characters prime objective right now is saving the town the characters live in as we are about to come under siege from aforementioned insectoid monsters. If I fail hundreds of people get consumed by the aforementioned insectoid aliens. If this NPC remains alive then defense is impossible and we should flee leaving her behind. What is the point of a door if someone is guaranteed to open it for them?

Trap The Soul is not an evil spell.
Killing a traitor is not evil it is a sensible thing to do.

Whoever said that she hadn't done anything to attack us isn't reading the thread properly.

In this groups last campaign the rogue had a big reveal at the end. I wasn't playing in that campaign and I wasn't that rogue.

@Coraith: If she is the kryponite without whom we cannot win then I open the trap the soul gem and get her out again. Btw if an NPC is the magic tool to win a campaign then I disprove, Players should win the campaign not a DMPC.

So I just got off the phone from about an hour long convo with my DM.

I have known this group of people for about three or four years.

In the campaign before this one the rogue (not me) pretended to be working with the villain for the longest time and then pulled the double cross at the moment to take the title of god of Undeath from the BBEG. This was something that the DM and PC knew about but none of the players did.

I believe that the big reveal is worth everything. I believe that one player plotting against the party. I believe that every player other than pne plotting against one party is mean, so I cannot include all the party bar one in my plot.

When the reveal occurs:
1) It happens when I want it to, at the end of the campaign. My character leaves. He says, Im sorry that my actions hurt you, but I believe I did the right thing. Assuming they stay pissed he simply moves across the world. I always have isues with the end of a campaign anyway, I mean what is stopping the adventures why couldn't they keep playing forever. This gives me an ending which separates me from the party.

2) The players manage to cast a divination spell which reveals her location and confront me before the end of the campaign. The manure hits the windmill. It would not come to blows, I would disapear. That might mean my character leaves before the campaign ends. The DM has said I may then end up playing the very same summoner I worked so hard to un-do.

I must say that all the attacks against my DM are getting a bit annoying; attack me fine, agree with me GREAT, but saying he is a sh*tty DM is just wrong and unfair especially when only based on one situation. Especially when he is not reading this thread. he is probably the best DM I have ever played with. He does not play favourites. He does prepare well. He does think things through. being too in love with an element of your own story is incredibly difficult to get over as a DM and it is something i have done myself in the past.

The people saying they think I am terible player and they would never play with me are welcome to their opinion.

Harry Potter is a bad example.

Trap the Soul is a better option.

That way she is down until I am ready to release her, so if the couple of months stretches I havn't got to worry about the duration expiring.

Just to add, I have a huge amount of respect for my DM and I do not believe he is playing favourites. I don't believe it is particularly relevant that the NPC is romantically linked to his wife's PC, if it were linked to another PC I believe the situation would be the same. I don't believe he would have an issue killing his wife's pc any more than killing any other PC.

I don't believe the NPC is immortal, I believe the DM has her death scene in mind and has had for a long time. I just don't want to play the scenes which lead up to that death scene. I would rather act now and save her life (in the long run). "In order to save the village it became necessary to destroy it"

I do believe the DM is attached to the NPC. In a campaign where most of the villains are personality less bugs, he loves his recurring villains and NPCs.

The collective bug baddies have no problem communicating over vast distances. They have this NPCs finger and are using some kind of sympathetic magic to communicate that way. As such, putting her in a shelter doesn't help. Trap the Soul doesn't leave a body. But it does separate her from the collective bug baddies. While the bug baddies do not have her as a source of information we finish the campaign then I let her free again.

I don't think the DM considers the NPC a cohort. The NPC does not normally come on adventures with us.

The variant summoner class that the NPC has ranks in seems to be the source of the link to the bugs. As such I believe it to be so much part of the character that the NPC cannot be separated from the bugs while the bug threat remains. So if we trap the NPC for a couple of months while we deal with the end of the campaign then the NPC will survive the campaign. If the situation goes on I am fairly sure this NPC will be the BBEG at the very end of the campaign (probably riding the a fore-mentioned tarrasque).

2 people marked this as a favorite.

I disagree. Familiar and Animal companions are class features. Attacking them is attacking their character. Same with cohorts purchased with the Leadership feat.

This is an NPC.

That being said if your familiar was feeding info to the enemy I would eat it.

It is funny to me how many people assume that me and the DM are not talking about this outside of this. We are talking about it at length. I have an excellent relationship with my DM. It is just that we disagree about the role of the DM in this situation. We are both adults and extremely experienced roleplayers.

I also need to point out that if the DM said "I would really like you not to do this, I wouldn't do it."

I would also point out that we come to the forums for entertainment and we enjoy chatting with other players. No-one has offered me assistance on how to remove said NPC and I am not actually seeking it I am enjoying speaking with other roleplayers.

The other players are aware that a situation is brewing with this NPC. The difference is that they seem to be willing to walk into the trap. I have no idea why. Personally I see it as railroading and when I feel railroaded into a trap, I get myself out of the situation.

Killing an NPC is not PVP.

In the last game she was 'kidnapped' however she took with her all the parties valuables that weren't on our person, crippled our transport (airship), and she built a monster with the bad guys specifically designed to kill us with detailed knowledge of our weaknesses and magical items.

Please note that with Trap the Soul my plan is totally reversible if it turns out that we need her to win. Although needing an NPC to win is weak-sauce.

I don't have a problem with my DM or the other players. We are a happy group. But playing open handed means that you never get the reveal moment. If I pull this off and we get to the end of the campaign and I can say, hey you know 6 months ago when NPC3 disappeared well It was all part of my cunning plan.

If all of the players were on-board then keeping the mole mis-informed would be an option. The mole is in a relationship with a PC who will not agree to such a plan.

1) I already have the scrolls of trap the soul and the scrolls of mind blank. From previous quests. This NPC is regularly given a share of treasure, so there is no reason to think that she wouldn't accept a pile of loot from me this time, I will just slip the trap the soul gem in amongst the treasure. I will then wrap the gem in lead and conceal it in a bag of holding.

I would then use Rumor Mongering (Rogue Trait) to lead the party to the belief that she has gone willingly off to the bad guys.

2) I believe that she is part of the brain bug collective. I think they are must more insidious than an actual bug which can be killed. They collect fingers from members of this collective and share thoughts amongst them. Once the brain bug group have been destroyed along with their pet tarrasque we can restore the NPC.

3) Mind Blank is my solution to spells like commune. I would also note that the last time this NPC disappeared they didn't cast Commune.

4) I have potions of innocence and glibness and an obscene bluff that can beat any other known PC or NPCs Sense Motive.

5) Players can compete against players. Players can compete against fair DMs. DMs do have ultimate power but I want to play with DMs who wield that power gently and not like a 'Im the DM so I win stick'. I would hope that the DM wouldn't use the DM wins button.


The title is provocative, I am not looking for advice on killing a specific NPC more for a discussion about the role of the DM. My DM has started another thread called Help Me Save An NPC, which I have not read at his request, but I can see that there are a lot of posts.

In the homebrew campaign we are playing, an alien semi insectoid menace is taking over the world. The enemies are a mix between 40K Tyranids, Aliens from the movie franchise, and aliens from Starship troopers. They adapt to become the worst threat they can be and come in all sorts of shapes and sizes.

There is a NPC in the campaign, she is somehow linked to these creatures. She is a special variant summoner and is as linked to these creatures as a summoner is linked to their Eidolon. She can sense when they are near and her special brand of magic is tied to them. The creatures are using her mind to spawn new specific monsters based on our weaknesses, they are also using her to gather information about the party.

She recently disappeared and it was revealed that the monsters could use her soul to create special vat grown clones of her. We have specifically been told that if we control the soul of the individual they cannot make new clones. The clone with the soul is referred to as the Prime. By Using Trap The Soul we could prevent them from making new clones and close their method of gathering information about us. Another PC has currently taken possession of the soul of another NPC in a similar situation.

We are in the final run of the campaign when an infected Tarrasque is going to attack. We are also in the process of fortifying a town to ward off a full attack from hordes of these monsters. The campaign is about to end and then we can resurrect the NPC, she just needs to be out of the loop for a few months.

My character (Level 17 Rogue) has decided that this NPC is a liability. She is consciously or unconsciously feeding information to our enemies. Worse, during the end stages of this campaign she is likely to be twisted further by the menace and we will be forced to kill her. My plan is to remove her from the campaign until the Alien threat is dealt with then we can restore her to life. I see it as chryo-freezing someone with a parasite in them until we can fix the problem.

The party has a number of tools which I can use to dispose of her. A scroll of Mind Blank, Bag of holding, Lead (Which blocks all divination in this campaign world), Scroll of Trap the soul and suitable gem. All I would need is a scroll of sympathy.

Now the problem: This NPC is in a relationship with another PC who happens to be the DM’s wife. I believe I could convince every other PC, but not the one with an amorous connection. I believe I am doing the right thing for the party, the world, and the NPC in the long run. This is especially true in my opinion as the PCs have already captured the soul of another NPC in the same position as the NPC in question. I don’t want to tell the other PCs because I am a secretive character. I don’t want to tell the other players because I hate meta-gaming and I don’t want them to use out of game information.

The DM believes that if a villain under his control was to kidnap or kill a PC then it would be his responsibility to ensure that enough clues remained for the players to solve the puzzle. As such he believes that if a PC not under his control commits such an Act he is still responsible to ensure that enough clues remain for the players to solve the puzzle. I am playing a rogue with an excellent Charisma, great social skills, Rumour-Mongering, and the tools I need to get away with this. I do not believe that the DM needs to create clues that I have not left.

I am actually really bothered by this as I believe that the DM is there to facilitate PC interactions with other PCs. I have to tell the DM what I am doing, it is his world after all, but him feeding that information to the players through whatever means is meta-gaming. I also believe that the DM plotting against me because I have told him my plans in advance isn’t very fair.

If there was an NPC who had been infected with an aberrant parasite and was making more (better) aberrations, and was revealing information to your enemies which was making the defense of your home impossible: WHAT WOULD YOU DO.

The Armour option also imposes Arcane Spell Failure.

Weapon Snatcher (Ex)
Prerequisite: Advanced talents
Benefit: A rogue with this talent can make a Sleight of Hand check in place of a combat maneuver check when attempting to disarm an opponent.

Now some quick questions.

* Does this stealing provoke attacks of opportunity?

* Does the difficulty become the CMD of the target, or the DC of stealing something from someone's hand?

* Does this action break invisibility.

* What about if the target is unaware of the thief?

Thanks so much.

I live in BC. I had to work from home Monday/Tuesday because I couldn't get to work. I only came to work on Wednesday because I ran out of work to do from home. It took me 11 minutes to drive 30 feet out of my cul de sac.

What is this talent, and where do I find it?

The character is a Human cross blooded sorcerer. The OP said this in the first post.

Weapon Snatcher (Ex)
Prerequisite: Advanced talents
Benefit: A rogue with this talent can make a Sleight of Hand check in place of a combat maneuver check when attempting to disarm an opponent.

Now some quick questions. I am trying not to color the answers with my opinions.

* Does this stealing provoke attacks of opportunity?

* Does the difficulty become the CMD of the target, or the DC of stealing something from someone's hand?

* Does this action break invisibility.

* What about if the target is unaware of the thief?

Thanks so much.

Okay... Firstly I wouldn't allow this. [Playing devils advocate]

RAW: "If a character receives an animal companion from more than one source, her effective druid levels stack for the purposes of determining the statistics and abilities of the companion."

Does that mean that if I am a cleric and BOTH my domains give me an animal companion I get an animal companion of double my level?


Comment for yesterday: "Melf's minute minotaurs" FOR THE WIN.

Today's selection: Favorite monster is HUMANS. Write a list of the worst things committed by monsters in real life and fantasy. Then write a list of the worst things committed by monsters in real life and fantasy. Humans are clearly the most monstrous monster.

AWizardInDallas wrote:

I've used the same generation method for years and don't allow point buy characters. Each player is allowed to roll 4d4, drop the lowest die, in three sets of six. They get to pick the set they like best and arrange them as they please. :)

If you mean 4d4 that is really low....

If you mean 4D6 that is reasonably generous. ..

Thanks guys. I needed that. I just read through the whole thread.

So as I am wont to do, I asked James Jacobs the following questions. And yes I do know that JJ's opinion is only that, his opinion.

So using the Lyre of Building as it is written....
1) Does the player need to provide the materials?
2) How skilled are these 100 humans? I mean building a mine requires some skills.
3) Is there any reason [apart from fatigue/hunger/thirst] why the person cannot play the thing for a week straight?
4) Don't you think its a bit good for a 13k item?

His answers were:
1) Yes. The lyre only provides the energy to construct things. It can't create materials. You'd need a big stack of lumber or stone, along with the mortar and nails and all that. The lyre only replaces the tools and the people you need to wield the tools.

2) They're "workmanlike." Aka, the lyre doesn't make things artistic at all, or particularly well-made. It's pretty much the bare minimum skill required to get it done.

3) As long as you can keep making those DC 18 Perform checks, you can keep building with the lyre. I'd say that, as with ANY action requiring work (such as traveling), after 8 hours of making perform checks you'd start to become fatigued and exhausted and all that, and eventually you WILL collapse from exhaustion. At a certain point, though, you'll run out of materials (see #1 above) and have to stop anyway. If I were the GM, I'd probably just limit the use of this item to a maximum of 8 hours at a time, regardless of how bad-ass your Perform checks were.

4) How many times have you seen a PC buy this item? I've never seen it happen. I think that it's price is, if anything, TOO much, as a result. (Shrug) If you think it's too inexpensive and you want players in your game to actually have to build things by hand, just get rid of it in your game.

James Jacobs wrote:
Sleep-Walker wrote:

Hey James,

How would you limit the use of a Lyre of Building in a non-Kingmaker game?

I mean would you put limits on it? If not what kind of humans do you use as the base 100 humans [laborers, unskilled, craftsman etc]


I wouldn't put limits on it. If I had a problem with a lyre of building's long-term campaign effects, I just wouldn't put them into the game nor would I allow them to be purchased.

Sorry for the follow-up.

So using the Lyre of Building as it is written....

1) Does the player need to provide the materials?
2) How skilled are these 100 humans? I mean building a mine requires some skills.
3) Is there any reason [apart from fatigue/hunger/thirst] why the person cannot play the thing for a week straight?
4) Don't you think its a bit good for a 13k item?

Doesn't that seem like a bit of a stretch for a 13k item??

Besides it says it builds the structures not that it provides the materials.

Hey James,

How would you limit the use of a Lyre of Building in a non-Kingmaker game?

I mean would you put limits on it? If not what kind of humans do you use as the base 100 humans [laborers, unskilled, craftsman etc]


Guys, never in the description does it say labourers or craftsman. It says HUMANS. Humans could be labourers or craftsman.

I agree that given the price of the item it probably should be labourers, but it doesn't say that. Right?

In fact the item specifically says that it can make buildings, tunnels, ditches, mines, and walls. That sounds like at least some skill is involved. Making mines is extremely dangerous.

The 101 Skill uses seems to be the most popular item.

I think that Kingmaker purposefully limits the powers of spells like Wall Of Stone and Fabricate. It needs to given the goal of the campaign. In a regular campaign I am not sure the same limits need to be taken into consideration. I am not sure Kingmaker should be cited as precedent. Otherwise a Lyre of building would be incapable of building more than a quarter of a city wall.

RAW A bard with a paladin with remove fatigue could play the lyre for a week straight and create an entire metropolis shell in a week.

[7 days times 24 hours times 2 to get half hour periods. Equals 33600 people working for three days. Or 3360 people working for 30 days.]

Hey Sean, did you write the feat in question???


Ghost Touch Spell Storing Melee Weapon with an inflict spell in it???

Ghost Touch armour like the old Healing armour from 3.5 but make it inflicting.

All of them.

3 people marked this as FAQ candidate.


I am having some issues with Gang Up and the FAQ language about being your own allie.


Gang Up (Combat)

You are adept at using greater numbers against foes.

Prerequisites: Int 13, Combat Expertise.

Benefit: You are considered to be flanking an opponent if at least two of your allies are threatening that opponent, regardless of your actual positioning.

Normal: You must be positioned opposite an ally to flank an opponent.

Now I took that as being when two other party members [plus you] for a total of three are attacking an opponent you can get flanking even if you are not across from one of your allies.

However, the FAQ wording confuses matters as it suggests that you count as one of your own allies. Does that mean that if me and another character side by side are attacking a target then I count as flanking?


Do you count as your own ally?

You count as your own ally unless otherwise stated or if doing so would make no sense or be impossible. Thus, "your allies" almost always means the same as "you and your allies."

—Sean K Reynolds, 10/12/10

Can a crafter take a +5 bonus to the DC to ignore the caster level requirement of an item??


2 people marked this as FAQ candidate.


I am working in a regular campaign, we have just been informed that our sleepy little town may need to suddenly become a fortress.

I have some problems with the description and need a little RAW assistance.

With a Lyre of Building do I need to make a perform stringed instrument check to activate its building protection powers?

With a Lyre of Building do I need to make a perform stringed instrument check to activate the first hour of its construction power?

With its construction power is there a limit to how much work can be completed per week. Assuming ring of sustenance and decent con, and high perform is there any reason I couldn't play the instrument for 10 hours straight? or even longer.

I assume I have to pay for the raw materials? How do we cost that out?

It says 100 humans working for three days. Do we assume unskilled laborers? Do they have some skill? Some understanding of the construction skill?

Item description below for ease of reference:

Aura moderate transmutation; CL 6th

Slot —; Price 13,000 gp; Weight 5 lbs.

This magical instrument is usually made of gold and inlaid with numerous gems. If the proper chords are struck, a single use of this lyre negates any attacks made against inanimate construction (walls, roof, floor, and so on) within 300 feet. This includes the effects of a horn of blasting, a disintegrate spell, or an attack from a ram or similar siege weapon. The lyre can be used in this way once per day, with the protection lasting for 30 minutes.

The lyre is also useful with respect to building. Once a week, its strings can be strummed so as to produce chords that magically construct buildings, mines, tunnels, ditches, etc. The effect produced in 30 minutes of playing is equal to the work of 100 humans laboring for 3 days. Each hour after the first, a character playing the lyre must make a DC 18 Perform (string instruments) check. If it fails, she must stop and cannot play the lyre again for this purpose until a week has passed.
Construction Requirements

Craft Wondrous Item, fabricate; Cost 6,500 gp

I have no idea how they are costing Racial magic abilities.

Buying a 1/Day ability costs 1 per spell level.

To buy gnome magic as it stands would cost like 4 points. 4 spells plus a Caster level bonus to Illusion.

So Gnomes get a 4 or 5 RP ability for 1 point.

Whats more Racial magic options for races that get them seem to count as one magic purchase. However, for a custom race each purchase counts as a purchase from the magic section.

And don't get me started on Drow Noble or Svirfneblin


For a game tomorrow I have to create a Level 12 Eidolon.

I will be sitting down with the books tonight.

This is likely to be a one game visiting Eidolon so I am very willing to look into the most horrendous combinations people have built.


First Advanced Talent should be rumor-monger. Its absolutely awesome.

This is for my discworld campaign, so I will be writing all the races.


Player one wants to play a human.

Player 2 wants to play a gargoyle.

Player 3 wants to play a elf.

Player 4 wants to play a golem.

Player 5 wants to play a vampire.

How do you balance it without mutilating play or re-writing every class?

I will be unning a campaign soon which will have a layout very similar to this.

Thanks. I am fairly sure I can handle this with the group I have it planned for.

A modified hero point system may solve some of the issues. Let them use hero points to pull off the truly ridiculous stuff. The 1 in a million kind of stuff.

The other question is how long to keep the immortal dead for.
In the series it varies from minutes to hours. Maybe a series of Fort saves?

They also need an ability to allow them to conceal a sword on their person.

Current Plans: Wizards are fine. Sorcerers are simply variant wizards who manifested powers at birth rather than learning them academically [I want players to still have the ability to choose between spontaneous and prepared casting]. However, I will rename them to differentiate them from Sourcerers. [8th son etc etc]

Witches are Witches. Maybe add a few new Hexs. Although Borrowing is already a Hex.

All other classes are fine.

Races: The below need writing and maybe some tweaking.
Death's Grandchild:
Uber Orks.

True Elves are not available for play.

Elves become Elf Blooded. Half Elves are slightly Elf blooded. Humans, Dwarves, Half-Orcs, Goblins, Gnolls, are all fine.

Gnomes, Halflings are both out

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