You don't even need powerful minions, just something to slow him down.
I tell you what, give a scenario you think a paladin would ruin and I am sure someone can tell you how to run it so that it is challenging.Actually I already did for the OP. They could have all come in with invis on, and used the standard action for something else.
For glitterdust to work you have to pick the area the opponent is in. Mirror image makes you miss a lot on average. I have...
Smite Evil disables any DR on the target for the paladin.
As soon as he does anything that harms your party in any way (and if its only casting a prayer) it will reveal him. Not to say that every Wizard worth his money has a See Invisibility...
So as soon as he does anything besides standing idle of summoning things (a great thing for a CL3 dragon) the paladin will attack him.
Assuming he casts Mirror Image first he will end up with 3 Images (average). So that might indeed make him live two rounds...
The best option here would be other persons using up his 3 Images and then you could just lay him flat in one round again...
One of the giants should just have grappled the Paladin.
A 10th level Gnome Paladin with 10 Str and 18 Dex has a CMB of + 9 and a CMD of 23 while a generic stone giant (a lowly CR 8 monster) has a CMB of +18 (he only needs to roll a 5) and a CMD of 30 (the gnome needs to roll a 20). Deflection bonus to AC given by Smite Evil only work against the target of the smite.
You cannot use a bow when grappled. Game Over.
You don't even need powerful minions, just something to slow him down.
I tell you what, give a scenario you think a paladin would ruin and I am sure someone can tell you how to run it so that it is challenging.Actually I already did for the OP. They could have all come in with invis on, and used the standard action for something else.
For glitterdust to work you have to pick the area the opponent is in. Mirror image makes you miss a lot on average. I have...
Smite Evil disables any DR on the target for the paladin.
As soon as he does anything that harms your party in any way (and if its only casting a prayer) will reveal the enemy. Not to say that every Wizard worth his money has a See Invisibility...
So as soon as he does anything besides standing idle of summoning things (a great thing for a CL3 dragon) the paladin will attack him.
Assuming he casts Mirror Image first he will end up with 3 Images (average). So that might indeed make him live two rounds...
The best option here would be other persons using up his 3 Images and then you could just lay him flat in one round again...
This is assuming the OP's situation is used unless you would like to use another one:
For the DR you are correct, darn smites. :)See Invis has to be cast and then glitterdust then. That is two round of the wizard not buffing the party or doing something worse. I don't see the issue there, and by the time the enemy has probably broken invis anyway by attacking.
I think mirror image gets the dragon 3 rounds. It will cause some "would-be" hits to miss, and if the dragon is invisible he will remove the paladin's weapon or get a full attack putting the paladin on his heels.
More detail:
If the paladin is an archer you sunder the bow. If the pally is a melee specialist you take your standard action to do a charge, and disarm the melee weapon since the chances of breaking a melee weapon in one hit are slim. The pally now has to go to a backup weapon or take an AoO to pick up his main weapon. The dragon also has reach so he just stays there and full attack the pally on his next turn while staying out of reach. This only requires a DC 15 fly check, and the green dragon in question has a +10 to fly.
You keep assuming the paladin has access to the dragon. The reason my dragons give paladins trouble is that they don't engage paladins in melee on the paladin's terms.
You don't even need powerful minions, just something to slow him down.
I tell you what, give a scenario you think a paladin would ruin and I am sure someone can tell you how to run it so that it is challenging.Actually I already did for the OP. They could have all come in with invis on, and used the standard action for something else.
For glitterdust to work you have to pick the area the opponent is in. Mirror image makes you miss a lot on average. I have...
Smite Evil disables any DR on the target for the paladin.
As soon as he does anything that harms your party in any way (and if its only casting a prayer) it will reveal him. Not to say that every Wizard worth his money has a See Invisibility...
So as soon as he does anything besides standing idle of summoning things (a great thing for a CL3 dragon) the paladin will attack him.
Assuming he casts Mirror Image first he will end up with 3 Images (average). So that might indeed make him live two rounds...
The best option here would be other persons using up his 3 Images and then you could just lay him flat in one round again...
Unless the Antipaladin wins initiative and attacks first.
Paladin goes splatter.
And that's just one thing you can do to him.
It's not as simple as you make it sound.
I think mirror image gets the dragon 3 rounds. It will cause some "would-be" hits to miss, and if the dragon is invisible he will remove the paladin's weapon or get a full attack putting the paladin on his heels.
What? With 5 attacks? It gets him exactly ONE round. MAYBE.
More detail:
If the paladin is an archer you sunder the bow.
First you have to get there. And: I really don't want to start destroying the PC's equipment.
Unless the Antipaladin wins initiative and attacks first.
What Antipaladin?
No one here has claimed that the Paladin is undefeatable or generally overpowered. The discussion is quite specific: Ranged Paladin vs. Dragon. Lets keep it that way.
Unless the Antipaladin wins initiative and attacks first.
What Antipaladin?
No one here has claimed that the Paladin is undefeatable or generally overpowered. The discussion is quite specific: Ranged Paladin vs. Dragon. Lets keep it that way.
I was responding to Alienfreak, and our discussion was built around more general concepts.
Was not replying to your specific example at all.
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More detail:
If the paladin is an archer you sunder the bow.First you have to get there. And: I really don't want to start destroying the PC's equipment.
...
No one here has claimed that the Paladin is undefeatable or generally overpowered. The discussion is quite specific: Ranged Paladin vs. Dragon. Lets keep it that way.
If you don't want to hinder a foe in any way by destroying/stealing a weapon, don't complain the guy is hard to beat afterhand, especially if you set up perfect conditions for it to happen. And it's not like sundering the level 9-10 paladin's +1 bow would kill him.
You don't try grapples because the players would cry for help ?I think someone needs to start a Wizard vs. Fighter thread about how enchantment is so great when the wizard has initiative and the fighter is already in a mindfog.
Or a Monk vs. Wizard thread about how grapple is too powerful because the wizard, who didn't prepare any Still spell pretty much can't cast anymore.
Or about Fighter vs. Wizard, about how fighters deal too much damage when the wizard is unconscious.
Hyla still has explained why these ubercasters didn't bothered casting long-lasting buffs like greater invisibility on themselves prior to porting in. Among other things...
More detail:
If the paladin is an archer you sunder the bow.First you have to get there. And: I really don't want to start destroying the PC's equipment.
...
No one here has claimed that the Paladin is undefeatable or generally overpowered. The discussion is quite specific: Ranged Paladin vs. Dragon. Lets keep it that way.
If you don't want to hinder a foe in any way by destroying/stealing a weapon, don't complain the guy is hard to beat afterhand, especially if you set up perfect conditions for it to happen. And it's not like sundering the level 9-10 paladin's +1 bow would kill him.
You don't try grapples because the players would cry for help ?I think someone needs to start a Wizard vs. Fighter thread about how enchantment is so great when the wizard has initiative and the fighter is already in a mindfog.
Or a Monk vs. Wizard thread about how grapple is too powerful because the wizard, who didn't prepare any Still spell pretty much can't cast anymore.
Or about Fighter vs. Wizard, about how fighters deal too much damage when the wizard is unconscious.
*falls over laughing*
See Invis has to be cast and then glitterdust then. That is two round of the wizard not buffing the party or doing something worse. I don't see the issue there, and by the time the enemy has probably broken invis anyway by attacking.
So if he really does nothing but stand back yes, if the wizard doesn't own a quickening rod, it would take two rounds. But he will want to do something harmful, wouldn't he?
I think mirror image gets the dragon 3 rounds. It will cause some "would-be" hits to miss, and if the dragon is invisible he will remove the paladin's weapon or get a full attack putting the paladin on his heels.
Don't tell me the Paladin is gonna miss O_o.
And how does Mirror Image help anyone remove a weapon?
If the paladin is an archer you sunder the bow. If the pally is a melee specialist you take your standard action to do a charge, and disarm the melee weapon since the chances of breaking a melee weapon in one hit are slim. The pally now has to go to a...
Disarming the melee weapon?
Ok. First you have to rework the feats of that dragon because he will need Improved Disarm. If he hasn't got that one he will take damage on the AoO and thus his disarm will fail.Now we assume he has that feat.
Now we roll attack rolls with a +4 bonus on the paladins side (assuming he hasn't smite evil running because then the dragon would be in big trouble here).
The Paladin will most likely have 18+2+4enhancement dex = +7
His BAB is +9, maybe he has a weapon focus and a +1 weapon. Sums up for a +22 on his roll.
The Dragon has 25 Str and a +13 BAB. Ends up being a +20. So its a 40% chance on his side to succeed. If the paladin has no smite evil running that is...
Not exactly what I would call a save method for the dragon :)
Unless the Antipaladin wins initiative and attacks first.Paladin goes splatter.
And that's just one thing you can do to him.
It's not as simple as you make it sound.
So I guess the Novas of the 3.0 or maybe even 3.5 Psions were no problem because you could just toast the party in less than a round, too?
I perfectly see where you are coming from.Player wants to play a Paladin. Everyone is happy with that.
Evil dude is a Outsider so what to do?
Best DM idea ever:
Just kill the paladin character before he can act with your fancy Antipaladin NPC!!!!111oneoneoneeleven
I mean... seriously?
Srsly?
Still... srsly?
Given my gaming experience with 3.5 and Pathfinder, I have come to the conclusion that archer-type are both the greatest damage dealers AND the easiest characters to kill, more than casters or anything else. They are not allowed AoO, so they are very vulnerable to Combat Maneuvres. Switch Hitters, on the other and, are not as vulnerable.
So I guess the Novas of the 3.0 or maybe even 3.5 Psions were no problem because you could just toast the party in less than a round, too?
I perfectly see where you are coming from.
Player wants to play a Paladin. Everyone is happy with that.
Evil dude is a Outsider so what to do?Best DM idea ever:
Just kill the paladin character before he can act with your fancy Antipaladin NPC!!!!111oneoneoneelevenI mean... seriously?
Srsly?
Still... srsly?
No. I'm giving you examples of how the asserted domination of the paladin in any and all encounters as you claim is neither absolute, nor universal. It can be overcome by an intelligent DM.
Your response seems to be boiling down to a rejection of all of those options as bad DMing.
If you're not willing to use intelligent tactics against the Paladin, then yes, he's going to walk over evil opponents. However, that is a very poor scale by which to measure his power.
Given my gaming experience with 3.5 and Pathfinder, I have come to the conclusion that archer-type are both the greatest damage dealers AND the easiest characters to kill, more than casters or anything else. They are not allowed AoO, so they are very vulnerable to Combat Maneuvres. Switch Hitters, on the other and, are not as vulnerable.
Wrong. You can easily threaten 15ft around yourself without having any penalties... gives you at least 2 AoOs on anyone approaching you...
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/snap-shot-combathttp://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/improved-snap-shot-combat
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If he hasn't got that one he will take damage on the AoO and thus his disarm will fail.
Nope.
The dragon has reach. He attempts disarm, draws the attack of opportunity, the dragon is out of range , no attack of opportunity occurs, the dragon attempts disarm with a large size and strength bonus.
wrong. You can easily threaten 15ft around yourself without having any penalties... gives you at least 2 AoOs on anyone approaching you...
Movement is only one opportunity, it doesn't matter if you threaten 10 feet or 60 feet.
Moving out of more than one square threatened by the same opponent in the same round doesn't count as more than one opportunity for that opponent. All these attacks are at your full normal attack bonus.
No. I'm giving you examples of how the asserted domination of the paladin in any and all encounters as you claim is neither absolute, nor universal. It can be overcome by an intelligent DM.Your response seems to be boiling down to a rejection of all of those options as bad DMing.
If you're not willing to use intelligent tactics against the Paladin, then yes, he's going to walk over evil opponents. However, that is a very poor scale by which to measure his power.
You really want to seriously tell me that just killing off PCs is "intelligent" or even "good" DMing and a proper solution to class related problems?
So your INTELLIGENT DM option is just give every BBEG a antipaladin that flattens him in the first round and then its a fair fight?
Sounds like players in your group are having a lot of fun!
Wouldn't... you know... instead of killing them every big encounter... telling them that they should rather play the pretty well made inquisitor class instead of the paladin class be more fun than being dead every 2 encounters in the first round for all of you? Just saying...
I mean you can kill your players without them standing a chance every single encounter in the game... not may table...
You don't even need powerful minions, just something to slow him down.
I tell you what, give a scenario you think a paladin would ruin and I am sure someone can tell you how to run it so that it is challenging.Actually I already did for the OP. They could have all come in with invis on, and used the standard action for something else.
For glitterdust to work you have to pick the area the opponent is in. Mirror image makes you miss a lot on average. I have...
Smite Evil disables any DR on the target for the paladin.
As soon as he does anything that harms your party in any way (and if its only casting a prayer) it will reveal him. Not to say that every Wizard worth his money has a See Invisibility...
So as soon as he does anything besides standing idle of summoning things (a great thing for a CL3 dragon) the paladin will attack him.
Assuming he casts Mirror Image first he will end up with 3 Images (average). So that might indeed make him live two rounds...
The best option here would be other persons using up his 3 Images and then you could just lay him flat in one round again...Unless the Antipaladin wins initiative and attacks first.
Paladin goes splatter.
And that's just one thing you can do to him.
It's not as simple as you make it sound.
It is not as simple as you make it sound either.
I was using the OP's example though. In that example he had been scrying on the party so the dragon comes in already invised along with a lamia, and 2 giants who I did not even account for yet.If I run a dragon I will probably try to ambush the party so one rounding my dragons for one reason or another has never happened. I may also use favorable terrain. Since the party is normally hunting the dragon they are usually fighting on the bad guy's terms so run up and hit is never as easy as "run up and hit".
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It is not as simple as you make it sound either.
I was using the OP's example though. In that example he had been scrying on the party so the dragon comes in already invised along with a lamia, and 2 giants who I did not even account for yet.If I run a dragon I will probably try to ambush the party so one rounding my dragons for one reason or another has never happened. I may also use favorable terrain. Since the party is normally hunting the dragon they are usually fighting on the bad guy's terms so run up and hit is never as easy as "run up and hit".
What a mean DM you are...
Dragons aren't stupid.
I think mirror image gets the dragon 3 rounds. It will cause some "would-be" hits to miss, and if the dragon is invisible he will remove the paladin's weapon or get a full attack putting the paladin on his heels.
What? With 5 attacks? It gets him exactly ONE round. MAYBE.
First you have to get there. And: I really don't want to start destroying the PC's equipment.
More detail:
If the paladin is an archer you sunder the bow.
No it takes more than one round each image hit takes away an attack. As far as sundering I was just showing that if you don't hold back the paladin is in trouble. The paladin is not holding back after all.
Now if you don't want to sunder then disarm the weapon and fly it away or fling it it to another square. I know there are no rules for throwing objects though so you may have to GM fiat something. The dragon could just hold onto the bow and give up one claw attack. I suggest tossing it behind him. If the paladin wants it that bad he can go get it. :)
edit:How hard is it to get there if I said the dragon teleported in already invisible?
Hyla still has explained why these ubercasters didn't bothered casting long-lasting buffs like greater invisibility on themselves prior to porting in. Among other things...Because Hyla has a decent DM who frowns on metagaming?
Or because Hyla knows Greater Invis is "Round per level"
If you can cast greater teleport, then you can be invisible for 11 rounds, or 11 minutes with basic invisibility (allowing for a semi-ambush).
Also, what is this metagaming nonsense? The big-bad was apparently using scry & die tactics. I dunno if you missed it but they greater-teleported to the party. Somehow I don't see the argument that putting up generic all-purpose buffs prior to teleporting onto your enemy's face as being particularly metagamey. In fact, I think it's pretty verisimilitude breaking that all these super-beings with super spellcasting are somehow stupid enough to wait until they get into combat to waste rounds buffing, allowing their foes to see what they are buffing with (making greater invisibility null since a spellcraft check + glitterdust = haha, you fool), with they had all the time in the world to buff and then get ported to their foes.
An equivalent would be like some dude looking at a few police officers and saying "Ok, I can teleport you directly into the room with the drug dealers and their elite guard. Before going, I shall make it so you cannot be seen, so they will not immediately realize what has happened. Likewise, let me..." - Police Guys: "Nah we got it. We'll wait to put our bullet-proof vests on until we get there, since that would be the not-metagaming thing to do".
You say "Good GM" and I say "inexperienced GM who won't accept that they might have played the badguys like morons and won't accept that they might have made a mistake instead of picking a scapegoat and whining about it".
The best way to become a good GM is to learn from your mistakes an experiences. Look at the plethora of posters who have offered up advice, alternatives, pointing out where it went wrong, and so forth, who apparently have no issue or beef with the smitey-archer. Surely they must all be wrong because it's good GMing to roleplay enemies like morons who wish to jump upon your sword.
Then again, maybe the enemies have taken a cue from Minsc!
"Jump on my sword while you can, evil. I won't be as gentle! *hamster squeak*" - Misnc and Boo
Given my gaming experience with 3.5 and Pathfinder, I have come to the conclusion that archer-type are both the greatest damage dealers AND the easiest characters to kill, more than casters or anything else. They are not allowed AoO, so they are very vulnerable to Combat Maneuvres. Switch Hitters, on the other and, are not as vulnerable.Wrong. You can easily threaten 15ft around yourself without having any penalties... gives you at least 2 AoOs on anyone approaching you...
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/snap-shot-combat
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/improved-snap-shot-combat
You're right, but to benefit from those two AoOs would require also Combat Reflexes. I doubt that a 10th-level Gnome Paladin could afford all those feats.
Level 1 -Point Blank Shot
Level 3 -Precise Shot (not a prerequisite, but a no-brainer for any archer)
Level 5 -Rapid Shot
Level 7 -Weapon Focus
Level 9 -Snap Shot
So the Paladin can have Snap Shot, but it won't help him against an opponent that can perform a Combat Maneuvre with reach. And he just given up other good feats like Deadly Aim, Manyshot, etc.
The dragon has reach. He attempts disarm, draws the attack of opportunity, the dragon is out of range , no attack of opportunity occurs, the dragon attempts disarm with a large size and strength bonus.
Wow I was stuck in 3.5 rules here... sorry :P
So a young adult green dragon has a CMB of +22.
The Paladin in question will most probably have something like:
9 BAB+ 7 Dex+ 3 Str = 19
So he has a CMD of 29
So he ends up with a 70% chance of succeeding.
A valid tactic.
Though I might add that if thats the only thing someone like him can do against the Paladin (and it seems like it) this trick will only work once. He will have a locked gauntlet from that point on increasing his CMD to 39, effectively making this tactic unuseful in the future.
Given my gaming experience with 3.5 and Pathfinder, I have come to the conclusion that archer-type are both the greatest damage dealers AND the easiest characters to kill, more than casters or anything else. They are not allowed AoO, so they are very vulnerable to Combat Maneuvres. Switch Hitters, on the other and, are not as vulnerable.Wrong. You can easily threaten 15ft around yourself without having any penalties... gives you at least 2 AoOs on anyone approaching you...
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/snap-shot-combat
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/improved-snap-shot-combatYou're right, but to benefit from those two AoOs would require also Combat Reflexes. I doubt that a 10th-level Gnome Paladin could afford all those feats.
Level 1 -Point Blank Shot
Level 3 -Precise Shot (not a prerequisite, but a no-brainer for any archer)
Level 5 -Rapid Shot
Level 7 -Weapon Focus
Level 9 -Snap ShotSo the Paladin can have Snap Shot, but it won't help him against an opponent that can perform a Combat Maneuvre with reach.
I as a Paladin would use an Archetype to get Precise shot for free...
You only said that they can't take AoOs while they can. Yet they can't threaten 15ft before lvl 12(?).
Still they CAN take AoOs. And how many melee fighters can take AoOs at a 15ft distance at lvl9?
No. I'm giving you examples of how the asserted domination of the paladin in any and all encounters as you claim is neither absolute, nor universal. It can be overcome by an intelligent DM.Your response seems to be boiling down to a rejection of all of those options as bad DMing.
If you're not willing to use intelligent tactics against the Paladin, then yes, he's going to walk over evil opponents. However, that is a very poor scale by which to measure his power.
You really want to seriously tell me that just killing off PCs is "intelligent" or even "good" DMing and a proper solution to class related problems?
So your INTELLIGENT DM option is just give every BBEG a antipaladin that flattens him in the first round and then its a fair fight?
Sounds like players in your group are having a lot of fun!Wouldn't... you know... instead of killing them every big encounter... telling them that they should rather play the pretty well made inquisitor class instead of the paladin class be more fun than being dead every 2 encounters in the first round for all of you? Just saying...
I mean you can kill your players without them standing a chance every single encounter in the game... not may table...
I really should have labeled that with a sarcasm tag. I did not say that such an example was "good DMing" I asserted that a capable DM can get around Smite Evil ruining his encounters with good tactics. The Antipaladin is an over the top example of something that can complicate matters for a Paladin, a scenario in which he is not automatically guaranteed victory.
I seem to have given the impression that this is my go-to. It isn't.
So I suppose we'd best settle on an actual encounter. Give me (Or Wraithstrike, who I think is my superior in matters mechanical) an actual scenario in which a BBEG is facing a party that includes a paladin. Perhaps examples can be provided that show how such a character can be dealt with without ruining things for him or the party.
So if he really does nothing but stand back yes, if the wizard doesn't own a quickening rod, it would take two rounds. But he will want to do something harmful, wouldn't he?
Don't tell me this is going to be one of those threads where the wizard will always have the counter to whatever I bring up. I am about to ask someone for a build to get rid of the "I always have the right feat/spell/item" syndrome from occuring.
Don't tell me the Paladin is gonna miss O_o.
And how does Mirror Image help anyone remove a weapon?
Mirror image does not care about AC that much. Even if you hit the target AC the mirror image will eat some of those attacks. By the end of round 2 the paladin's weapon should be missing.
Disarming the melee weapon?
Ok. First you have to rework the feats of that dragon because he will need Improved Disarm. If he hasn't got that one he will take damage on the AoO and thus his disarm will fail.
You don't need the feat to disarm the weapon. You only take AoO's against enemies you threaten. The pally is not threatening the dragon unless it is medium. I will admit that I assumed it was large. I have yet to check.
What does the pally's attack rolls have to do with anything. This is not an opposed roll issue. The dragon only has to beat the paladin's CMD.
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The first thing that the dragon should have thought of would be teleporting in while the party was sleeping. Why attack when the group is prepared? Since there is no terrain fir the dragon to take advantage of, this is one of the only ways it could use the environment to it's advantage. Casting Darkness on itself (or better, Deeper Darkness) before teleporting in right next to the Paladin would have been an even better idea.
Archery by itself is powerful- an archer fighter with those dragonbane arrows would have done almost as well and that is without being specialized against big evil things like a paladin.
Don't tell me this is going to be one of those threads where the wizard will always have the counter to whatever I bring up. I am about to ask someone for a build to get rid of the "I always have the right feat/spell/item" syndrome from occuring.
I always thought a quickening rod is a good idea anyway.
But how does all this help your baddy being visibile or at least "pointable" once he attacks?
Mirror image does not care about AC that much. Even if you hit the target AC the mirror image will eat some of those attacks. By the end of round 2 the paladin's weapon should be missing.
The Paladin will hit all his attacks. Thus he will need about 5 mirror images for the first round alone.
And still all other party members will help him dispose the Mirror Images.
What does the pally's attack rolls have to do with anything. This is not an opposed roll issue. The dragon only has to beat the paladin's CMD.
Read my posts... maybe?
Given my gaming experience with 3.5 and Pathfinder, I have come to the conclusion that archer-type are both the greatest damage dealers AND the easiest characters to kill, more than casters or anything else. They are not allowed AoO, so they are very vulnerable to Combat Maneuvres. Switch Hitters, on the other and, are not as vulnerable.Wrong. You can easily threaten 15ft around yourself without having any penalties... gives you at least 2 AoOs on anyone approaching you...
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/snap-shot-combat
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/improved-snap-shot-combat
A 9th level archer paladin is going to miss feats somewhere due to how feat intensive archery is.
The pally in question most likely does not have these feats, and even so the dragon coming in already invis'd means he can't take the AoO anyway.
Taking the bow away on the surprise round is still an option since the only restriction by the OP is not sundering weapons. If he takes that away I don't have much else to say when he stacks the battle so heavily in the party's favor.
I as a Paladin would use an Archetype to get Precise shot for free...
I didn't know about that Archetype. What does it give up for that?
You only said that they can't take AoOs while they can. Yet they can't threaten 15ft before lvl 12(?).
Still they CAN take AoOs. And how many melee fighters can take AoOs at a 15ft distance at lvl9?
None, but a grappled melee fighter is not defenseless, unlike the grappled ranged fighter.
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It is not as simple as you make it sound either.
I was using the OP's example though. In that example he had been scrying on the party so the dragon comes in already invised along with a lamia, and 2 giants who I did not even account for yet.If I run a dragon I will probably try to ambush the party so one rounding my dragons for one reason or another has never happened. I may also use favorable terrain. Since the party is normally hunting the dragon they are usually fighting on the bad guy's terms so run up and hit is never as easy as "run up and hit".
What a mean DM you are...
Dragons aren't stupid.
I am quiet confused here.
The dragon has reach. He attempts disarm, draws the attack of opportunity, the dragon is out of range , no attack of opportunity occurs, the dragon attempts disarm with a large size and strength bonus.
Wow I was stuck in 3.5 rules here... sorry :P
So a young adult green dragon has a CMB of +22.
The Paladin in question will most probably have something like:
9 BAB+ 7 Dex+ 3 Str = 19
So he has a CMD of 29So he ends up with a 70% chance of succeeding.
A valid tactic.
Though I might add that if thats the only thing someone like him can do against the Paladin (and it seems like it) this trick will only work once. He will have a locked gauntlet from that point on increasing his CMD to 39, effectively making this tactic unuseful in the future.
The locked guantlet is a good idea, but most people don't pick them up. The issue with them is that it takes a long time to switch to melee weapons if you need to. A dragon would that and close with the pally knowing if he fires he provokes, and he can't change weapons quickly.
Gauntlet, Locked: This armored gauntlet has small chains and braces that allow the wearer to attach a weapon to the gauntlet so that it cannot be dropped easily. It provides a +10 bonus to your Combat Maneuver Defense to keep from being disarmed in combat. Removing a weapon from a locked gauntlet or attaching a weapon to a locked gauntlet is a full-round action that provokes attacks of opportunity.
Now the dragon probably only gets on AoO since he probably does not have combat reflexes so he sunders the first arrow drawn. The 2nd shot may get eaten up by the mirror image that I said I would have up. The third attack is from the lowest BAB and will most likely miss.
Of course these mirror images will go away so maybe sundering the quiver holding the arrows is a better idea. :)
edit:changed hold to sunder.
The first thing that the dragon should have thought of would be teleporting in while the party was sleeping. Why attack when the group is prepared? Since there is no terrain fir the dragon to take advantage of, this is one of the only ways it could use the environment to it's advantage. Casting Darkness on itself (or better, Deeper Darkness) before teleporting in right next to the Paladin would have been an even better idea.
Archery by itself is powerful- an archer fighter with those dragonbane arrows would have done almost as well and that is without being specialized against big evil things like a paladin.
While that would be the best idea, coup de grac'ing PC's is not exactly a recipe for fun.
From a realist point of view I agree, but from a gaming view I don't.
PS:I have never known a party to not leave anyone on guard, but I am sure two of them could be killed before the party escaped if this were used.
So far the solutions in this thread have been:
1) Disarm / sunder the paladin's weapon.
2) Attack at a time that puts the party at a disadvantage. (sleeping, etc.)
3) Arrive with well chosen buffs.
4) Make intelligent use of terrain (waiting until there is terrain to make use of) to attack from ambush and stay out of reach.All of these solutions involve the NPCs actually thinking, rather than just rushing into combat. Who would have ever thought that?
+1.
I as a Paladin would use an Archetype to get Precise shot for free...
I didn't know about that Archetype. What does it give up for that?
You only said that they can't take AoOs while they can. Yet they can't threaten 15ft before lvl 12(?).
Still they CAN take AoOs. And how many melee fighters can take AoOs at a 15ft distance at lvl9?
None, but a grappled melee fighter is not defenseless, unlike the grappled ranged fighter.
What is this archetype that gets precise shot for free?
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What is this archetype that gets precise shot for free?I as a Paladin would use an Archetype to get Precise shot for free...
I didn't know about that Archetype. What does it give up for that?
You only said that they can't take AoOs while they can. Yet they can't threaten 15ft before lvl 12(?).
Still they CAN take AoOs. And how many melee fighters can take AoOs at a 15ft distance at lvl9?
None, but a grappled melee fighter is not defenseless, unlike the grappled ranged fighter.
The Divine Hunter from Ultimate Combat. Don't take it, core paladin is better.
Don't tell me this is going to be one of those threads where the wizard will always have the counter to whatever I bring up. I am about to ask someone for a build to get rid of the "I always have the right feat/spell/item" syndrome from occuring.I always thought a quickening rod is a good idea anyway.
But how does all this help your baddy being visibile or at least "pointable" once he attacks?
Mirror image does not care about AC that much. Even if you hit the target AC the mirror image will eat some of those attacks. By the end of round 2 the paladin's weapon should be missing.
The Paladin will hit all his attacks. Thus he will need about 5 mirror images for the first round alone.
And still all other party members will help him dispose the Mirror Images.Read my posts... maybe?
What does the pally's attack rolls have to do with anything. This is not an opposed roll issue. The dragon only has to beat the paladin's CMD.
The rods are good ideas, but having the right _____ after the person says what they are going to do is a common trope around here.
The paladin will hit all of his attacks, even on a 2?
I did read your post, but they kind of merged with the CMD part to me.
The Divine Hunter from Ultimate Combat. Don't take it, core paladin is better.What is this archetype that gets precise shot for free?I as a Paladin would use an Archetype to get Precise shot for free...
I didn't know about that Archetype. What does it give up for that?
You only said that they can't take AoOs while they can. Yet they can't threaten 15ft before lvl 12(?).
Still they CAN take AoOs. And how many melee fighters can take AoOs at a 15ft distance at lvl9?
None, but a grappled melee fighter is not defenseless, unlike the grappled ranged fighter.
Precise Shot: A divine hunter gains Precise Shot as a bonus feat at 1st level, even if she doesn't meet the prerequisites. This ability replaces her Heavy Armor Proficiency.
That just makes the paladin easier to kill.
+1.So far the solutions in this thread have been:
1) Disarm / sunder the paladin's weapon.
2) Attack at a time that puts the party at a disadvantage. (sleeping, etc.)
3) Arrive with well chosen buffs.
4) Make intelligent use of terrain (waiting until there is terrain to make use of) to attack from ambush and stay out of reach.All of these solutions involve the NPCs actually thinking, rather than just rushing into combat. Who would have ever thought that?
I would had:
5) Grapple the Paladin.
Now the dragon probably only gets on AoO since he probably does not have combat reflexes so he sunders the first arrow drawn. The 2nd shot may get eaten up by the mirror image that I said I would have up. The third attack is from the lowest BAB and will most likely miss.Of course these mirror images will go away so maybe holding the quiver holding the arrows is a better idea. :)
A newborn dragon has 13 dex... so why in heavens name would any dragon choose combat reflexes as a feat?
A dragon will always only have one AoO.Also you can't sunder as an AoO because it has to be part of an "attack action" and is not just "in place of a melee attack".
So your best chances are to just trip him. Since out of what reasons ever you cannot use a ranged weapon when being prone but still your two handed greataxe of doom.
So the best chance for the dragon to survive this is to get right next to the archer in the first round and trip him with your AoO.
As far as I see it a paladin can't get the Melee Shooting thingy...
This can sometimes though not work out for you if the archer has a friend teleporting him out of your reach or if he can withdraw somewhere where you can't follow him (or at least not this round because people are blocking you).
That just makes the paladin easier to kill.
Really?
A Breastplate is +6 +3. A Fullplate is +9 +1.
Now with Mithral applied its +6 +5, +4 +6 and +9 +3.
Since you are a archer I was assuming 24 dex at lvl 9.
So its 11 AC with the Breastplate and 12 AC for the Fullplate.
Now if we take into consideration that the Mithral Breastplate gives you full movement and you can rest in it I wouldn't say the 1 AC more is really contributing to the "easier to kill" theory.
Especially not regarding many suggestions here are "attack them when they are resting". Would you want to spend the first 4 minutes of the combat donning your armor or rest in it and have it ready at any time?
I guess running around in a fullplate against intelligent enemies makes you easy to kill...
5) Grapple the Paladin.
Grappling shares the problem that it doesn't eat up any of the Paladins actions.
So you Grapple him. He delays. A friend of him frees him with transportation magic and he full attacks you from a now save distance and you die...
That just makes the paladin easier to kill.Really?
A Breastplate is +6 +3. A Fullplate is +9 +1.
Now with Mithral applied its +6 +5, +4 +6 and +9 +3.
Since you are a archer I was assuming 24 dex at lvl 9.
So its 11 AC with the Breastplate and 12 AC for the Fullplate.Now if we take into consideration that the Mithral Breastplate gives you full movement and you can rest in it I wouldn't say the 1 AC more is really contributing to the "easier to kill" theory.
Especially not regarding many suggestions here are "attack them when they are resting". Would you want to spend the first 4 minutes of the combat donning your armor or rest in it and have it ready at any time?I guess running around in a fullplate against intelligent enemies makes you easy to kill...
Yeah this Divine Hunter thing seems like a good 1-level dip for a ranged character. A Fighter 2/Divine Hunter 1/Guide 2 would make an awesome archer. :)
Yeah this Divine Hunter thing seems like a good 1-level dip for a ranged character.
Only worth it if you have a good charisma for the Smite ability. Otherwise a level of fighter does exactly the same (give you a feat) without all the obligations.
If you have a good charisma you will want to take 2 levels of it for the Divine Grace madness...
I meant to say sunder the quiver not hold it.
I said it would not have combat reflexes. I never suggested it changing feats so it could have it.
I saw the "in place of a melee attack" and ran with it. Fair enough I could still sunder the quiver though.
Tripping is also a good idea since you have to have a crossbow to shoot while prone, IIRC.
The wizard could have a teleport/DD(most likely) prepared, however the field was wide open in the OP's description so now the archer and the wizard are seperated from the party. The party was not buffed according to the OP so if the wizard
What is blocking a flying dragon in a wide open area?
If they actually teleported away the rest of the party will probably die.
The dragon has a pretty high fly speed. If he can make it to the runner (with his normal move action) the wizards spell component pouch is toast. The archer provokes if he fires or tries to move out of provoke range.
On the provoke I suggest a trip or disarm(if no gauntlet is in place) since I can't sunder on the AoO. The trip also makes the disarm easier since penalties to AC apply to CMD.
In any even the OP's fight just got more interesting which was the goal of this thread.
Yeah this Divine Hunter thing seems like a good 1-level dip for a ranged character.Only worth it if you have a good charisma for the Smite ability. Otherwise a level of fighter does exactly the same (give you a feat) without all the obligations.
If you have a good charisma you will want to take 2 levels of it for the Divine Grace madness...
Then make that a Fighter 2/Divine Hunter 2/Guide 2. :D
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The reason Divine Hunter is inferior to the core paladin is because she loses her auras. Aura of Courage is so much better than Shared Precision, and Aura of Care is laughable when compared with Aura of Resolve. The really big one to lose, however, is Aura of Justice. Losing that is the major game-breaker, in my opinion, and is not worth getting an extra feat.
I meant to say sunder the quiver not hold it.
I saw the "in place of a melee attack" and ran with it. Fair enough I could still sunder the quiver though.
Only if you do it in your round but then yes... you could do that.
Tripping is also a good idea since you have to have a crossbow to shoot while prone, IIRC.
Tripping is not an idea but the only real idea. Unless you do it once in a while and he feels that much threatened to take the prone shooter feat.
So use it wisely.
The wizard could have a teleport/DD(most likely) prepared, however the field was wide open in the OP's description so now the archer and the wizard are seperated from the party. The party was not buffed according to the OP so if the wizardWhat is blocking a flying dragon in a wide open area?
If they actually teleported away the rest of the party will probably die.
Again (because you obviously didn't get it):
He grapples you.Either its the wizards turn (or cleric with some spells or whoever) or yours. If its yours you delay.
Its the Wizards turn (if it wasn't before). He teleports you 100 ft away.
Its your turn now: You full attack the dragon and will most likely kill him.
The reason Divine Hunter is inferior to the core paladin is because she loses her auras. Aura of Courage is so much better than Shared Precision, and Aura of Care is laughable when compared with Aura of Resolve. The really big one to lose, however, is Aura of Justice. Losing that is the major game-breaker, in my opinion, and is not worth getting an extra feat.
I'm more of an opinion that having Aura of Justice is game-breaker.
That just makes the paladin easier to kill.Really?
A Breastplate is +6 +3. A Fullplate is +9 +1.
Now with Mithral applied its +6 +5, +4 +6 and +9 +3.
Since you are a archer I was assuming 24 dex at lvl 9.
So its 11 AC with the Breastplate and 12 AC for the Fullplate.Now if we take into consideration that the Mithral Breastplate gives you full movement and you can rest in it I wouldn't say the 1 AC more is really contributing to the "easier to kill" theory.
Especially not regarding many suggestions here are "attack them when they are resting". Would you want to spend the first 4 minutes of the combat donning your armor or rest in it and have it ready at any time?I guess running around in a fullplate against intelligent enemies makes you easy to kill...
5) Grapple the Paladin.
Grappling shares the problem that it doesn't eat up any of the Paladins actions.
So you Grapple him. He delays. A friend of him frees him with transportation magic and he full attacks you from a now save distance and you die...
Mithral is expensive, and the OP's pally had Str: 10
Dex: 18Cha: 22
The OP's pally loses two AC, and if the CR 11 dragon has the same speed(200 flying) as the CR 12 then 20 or 30 feet of movement is not helping.
PS:When you grapple someone they are moved into an adjacent square square so the caster won't be able to teleport him away because he won't be able to reach him. The dragon is huge and will have a 15 foot reach with his bite.