...combined with ranged combat.
Seriously. Our Paladin deals out absurdly high damage.
We are currently level 9-10.
We are at the point were a bad guy needs to have a lot more than 100 HP and AC in the 30s to be able to survive even the first round of combat.
Recently the group (mostly lvl 9 at the time) faced off against a young green dragon (CR11). This should, on paper, be a challenging encounter, but the Paldin dealt out s.th. like 150 damage in one round (rapid shot + many shot, deadly aim + the works). Granted, he did have dragon bane arrows, but I think the dragon would have gone down even without them.
I think any ability which lets you reliably instant-kill a dragon with CR 2 steps higher than your own level is probably overpowered.
This issue came up when the final rules were published. The paladin is ok. You just have to be careful how you fight him. I will also ask did he roll and crits, and did all his attacks hit? If he had only rolled a 10 on all his attack rolls would the dragon still have been hit every time? What are his stats?
How did the scenario play out in detail. I am killed a paladin with a dragonIn short I still think smite evil is ok.
Ahh, of course. Op said "young green dragon (CR11)", I read Young and looked that up, I should have kept reading and looked at the Young Adult...oops. That makes it easier. The dragon could have used the scrolls himself, so personal spells are viable and should have been used.
the problem clearly is not the dragons supposedly "stupid tactics", but smite evil in conjunction with deadly aim, manyshot & rapid shot.
Hmm, actually, it is the dragons poor tactics. Properly prepared (which it should have been if it was doing a scry-n-die, for an encounter he should have known about), the dragon could have done much better. Displacement, 1/2 the attacks miss. Mirror Image, probably an initial hit chance of 25% (assuming a mere 3 images). Shield spell, +4 ac and immune to magic missles. I could go on and on.
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Indeed. The dragon sounds like a moron, and the paladin was in his absolute best scenario possible. Archery + Bane Arrows + Open Field + Smite Vulnerable Target + Distance to make it hurt versus an underbuffed dragon who was out of its element, lacking in options, and basically gift-wrapped and delivered in to the PC's hands via the teleport stuff.
It's a wonder they even had to roll initiative. *chuckles*
The PCs wasn't buffed, the bad guys were. That is an significant advantage. The rest of the envirinmental factors simply weren't disadvantegeous for the party.
Sure, the evil party could have placed better / more expensive buffs on the dragon.
But I find irt still strange that a CR = APL +2 dragon has to have
- several really good buffs, with only some of them available to him without caster allies
- a surprise round
- terrain which caters to his strength
to NOT be eaten by breakfast by ONE character in ONE round.
the problem clearly is not the dragons supposedly "stupid tactics", but smite evil in conjunction with deadly aim, manyshot & rapid shot.
I have to disagree with you on buffs and terrain. If an enemy has wealth and allies, some of that wealth should go to disposable buffs, and a mirror image or blur at that level is probably expected.
Furthermore, a monster's CR is made with the assumption that they are in terrain that is favourable to them. A drow will fight much more effectively when out of blinding sunlight, and a dire shark is not very dangerous in the Sahara. Similarly, if you took something that is best coming out of water or fighting in a dense forest, and put it in bowshot of a class that is hardwired to kill it, without even a windwall?
Just say whoops, and play the next encounter more dangerously.
I will add my voice to the chorus, bow focused Paladins/Smite Evil are GREAT against single evil creatures. We have a bow focused paladin (15th level)in our Kingmaker game and we work as a team. Any single evil creature just goes down. Lot's of attacks + really good to hit + LOTS of bonus damage + ignores any DR + teamwork = WIN.
The thing is,
a) the Dragon was not alone* (he even was hasted by an ally)
b) the other PCs did not help in the fight against the dragon at all (save the haste spell), so no teamwork.*also present:
Xanesha (Lamia Matriarch / Sor 2)
Barl Breakbones (Stone Giant Necromancer 7)
Stone Giant (with better equipment: greatsword, studded leather armour)both from RotR, conversions by www.d20pfsrd.com
I probably should have just used an adult dragon (CR 13 or 14). I guess my fault was to assume that dragons were the nearly unbeatable (or at least way better than the CR suggests) powerhouses I was used to from 3.5 - just does not seem to be the case anymore in PF.
3.5 monsters are not at strong as the PF versions and should be converted over. With that combination of opponents you should have been able to give the PC's a run for their money.
Did the PC's sneak up on them?
What is being discussed here, I think, are two serious problems with PFS. In any kind of heroic campaign, where evil creatures are plentiful, paladins past a certain level are too good. Obnoxiously good.
Separately, archers are also too good. Deadly Aim (which is Power Shot for archers, as I recall) is an absolutely terrible idea. If I made a banned list for my home game, this would be number 2 on the list. (Falcata is always number 1.) Giving fighters and paladins this kind of extra options for damage on a weapon that easily gets extra arrows and attacks (Rapid Shot and Manyshot do indeed work together, no penalty) is a serious problem.
Paladins should not subsume dragons, undead, and evil outsiders like they're nothing. I grant the responders, a home game GM can even this out by giving the dragon various spells and magic items, to prepare himself. However, a dragon should not need buff rounds to survive one round against an archer 2 levels lower than the CR. Period.
Original poster: Most people are going to defend the paladin. Various reasons exist, but in my experience, most people are going to emptily defend a powerful mechanic until it is used against them. The Magus is another extremely obnoxious class in the mid levels, always defended by my players until they had to face one. It's only silly when one of them has put you on the floor before you get to act.
All of this discussion is made much worse, by the way, when you leave your home game and move to PFS. In a home game, the DM can tailor the encounter to actually challenge the players. In PFS, you pretty much have to run as is, and there is a real problem finding the right difficulty level over there.
Now, to change my tune a little: There are so many problems with Pathfinder power mix right now, that without a good banned list, there will be problems like this starting around level 5. However, of all the crimes that are possible, Paladin is nowhere near the top of the list. Smite evil is good, too good, but...
None of that stuff is OP's. I don't consider something OP'd unless the majority of GM's can't deal with it. I have to admit I had to rethink the way I dealt with paladins once the core rules came out, but I never thought they were broken. I was happy for the paladin. They finally got picked to be a part of the team.
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Indeed. The dragon sounds like a moron, and the paladin was in his absolute best scenario possible. Archery + Bane Arrows + Open Field + Smite Vulnerable Target + Distance to make it hurt versus an underbuffed dragon who was out of its element, lacking in options, and basically gift-wrapped and delivered in to the PC's hands via the teleport stuff.
It's a wonder they even had to roll initiative. *chuckles*
The PCs wasn't buffed, the bad guys were. That is an significant advantage. The rest of the envirinmental factors simply weren't disadvantegeous for the party.
Sure, the evil party could have placed better / more expensive buffs on the dragon.
But I find irt still strange that a CR = APL +2 dragon has to have
- several really good buffs, with only some of them available to him without caster allies
- a surprise round
- terrain which caters to his strength
to NOT be eaten by breakfast by ONE character in ONE round.
the problem clearly is not the dragons supposedly "stupid tactics", but smite evil in conjunction with deadly aim, manyshot & rapid shot.
A Kraken may be CR 18, if you put it in an open desert and for some reason don't use Grab against a guy who has a Kraken-bane ranged weapon with lots of feats and a class feature specifically intended to slay Krakens, well...
Wait, did you expect the water-breathing, woodland-striding dragon to be as powerful on an open plain without any true defense, against a group including a guy whose whole purpose in life is slay evil dragons at range ? Just some trees, or heck, a water sphere around the dragon would have provided cover. Or hey, a swamp at night. Darkvision, blindsense, underwater.Oh, by the way, Wind Wall.
No, the problem here is not the absurdly good combo, it's that you allowed the pladin to use it without even having to try, and it's not like there isn't a s&$&ton ways to make an archer's life hard.
I ran Curse of the Crimson Throne twice, once in 3.5, and once for Pathfinder.
Granted the players were different, but the last two adventures of CotCT was NO CHALLENGE for the PATHFINDER Paladin party.
Scarwall: Shadow dragon: lasted 2 rounds
DEMI LICH???? PLEASE. That Challenging encounter from CotCT was reduced to comic relief with a PATHFINDER paladin.
Scarwall mostly undead: I don't want to hear anything about a wizard having all the fun. The paladin saved everyone.
Part 6 of the AP: All EVIL OUTSIDERS, forget it. My only complaint, was smite evil made Queen Illeosa's fight anti climatic. I thought flight would help, but the cleric foiled me by casting FLY on the paladin. Plus the paladin had Serethtial and the Celestial Plate Armor. it was like CotCT was made to demonstrate the awesomeness of the PATHFINDER paladin.
You know what? I loved it. Paladins have regained their status as a powerful class that was so dear in 1st edition.
Its almost like someone took a beat up old '65 corvette stingray and restored it to its former glory.
As others have said the dragon was played stupidly and it died stupidly.
Thats simply not true. It was not played "stupidly". It was an open field battle, in which the bad guys arrived (teleported in) buffed and thus even had an advantage on the party.
I can imagine no possible scenario where this dragon (alone) could have presented any challenge whatsoever against the party.
As soon as the paladin would have gotten his full attack - bye bye dragon.
To your haste comment: What do you think the dragon should have done if not use its melee attacks? Cast level 1 Spells? Use its scaaary acid breath with *5d6 acid damage* (an archer paladin WILL make a reflex save vs DC 20....). Pleas, do tell me, which powerful tactic I have failed to employ.
EDIT:
Oh, I just realized that one could interpret haste as non-applicable to natural attacks (and also not to monk unarmed attacks, since "holding a weapon" is spelled out explicitly). I don't use it that way in my game - a dragon gets an additional attack when hasted.
The bad guys scried the good guys, and teleported in knowing how they could fight?
Why didn't they go invisible before teleporting in? I am sure they could have afforded the potions.
Why didn't they teleport the dragon right next to the paladin, and have the dragon sunder his bow.
Why didn't they combine both of the above tactics?
Having the giants next to the cleric if the party has one is also an option. Sunder that holy symbol. That takes care of channeling and spells.
Channel Energy (Su): Regardless of alignment, any cleric can release a wave of energy by channeling the power of her faith through her holy (or unholy) symbol. This energy can be used to cause or heal damage, depending on the type of energy channeled and the creatures targeted.
That takes care of channeling and spells so that the party can't heal as easily. The paladin is now the healer, and a combatant. The problem is he can't do both at the same time. :)
There are other things they could have done, but I don't see smite as the issue here.
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Hyla if you want more than guesswork, show the point buy, show the wealth for the character, show the character sheet.
Can't show you the sheet, but I will try to give the most important stats as I remember them:
PB 20.
Gnome.
Str: 10
Dex: 18
Cha: 22
His weapon: a small +1 giant bane longbow
(using dragon bane arrows)
Relevant feats:
WF (Longbow), Rapid Shot, Manyshot, Deadly Aim.
Buffs on him at the time: Haste.
That would make his attack progression somewhat like:
+23/+23/+23/+18/+13
with 3d6 + 12
Or
+20/+20/+20/+15/+10
(deadly aim - I think he used that)
with 3d6 + 20
First attack would get another +9 dmg.
The dragon had AC 24, buffed to 28.
One attack missed, no crits.
Total dmg (four hits): 12d6 + 89 (mean 131, max 161). Dragons HP: 136.
EDIT: Forgot the size bonus, edited it in.
I have a question. There is a way to make the paladin class less binary without taking away his feeling f "anti-evil warrior"? because as it stand now, smite evil->paladin smashes, no smite->paladin suck.
I had to repost this so if it shows up again 15 minutes in the past it is the fault of the server
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As others have said the dragon was played stupidly and it died stupidly.
Thats simply not true. It was not played "stupidly". It was an open field battle, in which the bad guys arrived (teleported in) buffed and thus even had an advantage on the party.
I can imagine no possible scenario where this dragon (alone) could have presented any challenge whatsoever against the party.
As soon as the paladin would have gotten his full attack - bye bye dragon.
To your haste comment: What do you think the dragon should have done if not use its melee attacks? Cast level 1 Spells? Use its scaaary acid breath with *5d6 acid damage* (an archer paladin WILL make a reflex save vs DC 20....). Pleas, do tell me, which powerful tactic I have failed to employ.
EDIT:
Oh, I just realized that one could interpret haste as non-applicable to natural attacks (and also not to monk unarmed attacks, since "holding a weapon" is spelled out explicitly). I don't use it that way in my game - a dragon gets an additional attack when hasted.
The bad guys scried the good guys, and teleported in knowing how they could fight?
Why didn't they go invisible before teleporting in? I am sure they could have afforded the potions.
Why didn't they teleport the dragon right next to the paladin, and have the dragon sunder his bow.
Why didn't they combine both of the above tactics?
Having the giants next to the cleric if the party has one is also an option. Sunder that holy symbol. That takes care of channeling and spells.
Channel Energy (Su): Regardless of alignment, any cleric can release a wave of energy by channeling the power of her faith through her holy (or unholy) symbol. This energy can be used to cause or heal damage, depending on the type of energy channeled and the creatures targeted.
That takes care of channeling and spells so that the party can't heal as easily. The paladin is now the healer, and a combatant. The problem is he can't do both at the same time. :)
There are other things they could have done, but I don't see smite as the issue here.
I ran Curse of the Crimson Throne twice, once in 3.5, and once for Pathfinder.
Granted the players were different, but the last two adventures of CotCT was NO CHALLENGE for the PATHFINDER Paladin party.
Scarwall: Shadow dragon: lasted 2 rounds
DEMI LICH???? PLEASE. That Challenging encounter from CotCT was reduced to comic relief with a PATHFINDER paladin.Scarwall mostly undead: I don't want to hear anything about a wizard having all the fun. The paladin saved everyone.
Part 6 of the AP: All EVIL OUTSIDERS, forget it. My only complaint, was smite evil made Queen Illeosa's fight anti climatic. I thought flight would help, but the cleric foiled me by casting FLY on the paladin. Plus the paladin had Serethtial and the Celestial Plate Armor. it was like CotCT was made to demonstrate the awesomeness of the PATHFINDER paladin.
You know what? I loved it. Paladins have regained their status as a powerful class that was so dear in 1st edition.
Its almost like someone took a beat up old '65 corvette stingray and restored it to its former glory.
Yeah, Ileosa is definitely an insufficient challenge to a paladin-having party as a Bard. So I rebuilt her as a sorceress, so she could drop Force Cages and Mazes on the Paladin, and render most of the rest of the party helpless with Overwhelming Presence.
I have a question. There is a way to make the paladin class less binary without taking away his feeling f "anti-evil warrior"? because as it stand now, smite evil->paladin smashes, no smite->paladin suck.
There is nothing wrong with smite. You just can't give them a clear line to the boss guys.
I have a question. There is a way to make the paladin class less binary without taking away his feeling f "anti-evil warrior"? because as it stand now, smite evil->paladin smashes, no smite->paladin suck.There is nothing wrong with smite. You just can't give them a clear line to the boss guys.
Or allow a spellcaster to teleport them next to the boss guys.
Or allow a spellcaster to teleport them next to the boss guys.I have a question. There is a way to make the paladin class less binary without taking away his feeling f "anti-evil warrior"? because as it stand now, smite evil->paladin smashes, no smite->paladin suck.There is nothing wrong with smite. You just can't give them a clear line to the boss guys.
The caster has to teleport with him though, and the player's don't know the monster's initiative. A full attack on the caster or paladin could be in order.
The teleport idea came up before and is a result of teamwork, not the paladin alone, assuming it goes as planned.| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
I have a question. There is a way to make the paladin class less binary without taking away his feeling f "anti-evil warrior"? because as it stand now, smite evil->paladin smashes, no smite->paladin suck.There is nothing wrong with smite. You just can't give them a clear line to the boss guys.
I think what he asked was more like: As it stands, paladins either smite, and are frakkin' awesome, or they don't smite, and then they suxxors. He wondered if there was any good way to make it less binary, and more into different shades of kick-assness.
Not that I agree though, I think the paladin is fine even against non-evil opponents. Decent combatant with good healing powers, nothing to complain about.
Or allow a spellcaster to teleport them next to the boss guys.I have a question. There is a way to make the paladin class less binary without taking away his feeling f "anti-evil warrior"? because as it stand now, smite evil->paladin smashes, no smite->paladin suck.There is nothing wrong with smite. You just can't give them a clear line to the boss guys.The caster has to teleport with him though, and the player's don't know the monster's initiative. A full attack on the caster or paladin could be in order.
The teleport idea came up before and is a result of teamwork, not the paladin alone, assuming it goes as planned.
Monster's initiative doesn't matter. The caster or paladin delays so they can do a teleport followed immediately by a full attack smite.
As for teamwork, sure. The players recognize that the easiest way to drop a powerful evil is to deliver the paladin next to it. No sense wasting other resources on it.
Or allow a spellcaster to teleport them next to the boss guys.I have a question. There is a way to make the paladin class less binary without taking away his feeling f "anti-evil warrior"? because as it stand now, smite evil->paladin smashes, no smite->paladin suck.There is nothing wrong with smite. You just can't give them a clear line to the boss guys.The caster has to teleport with him though, and the player's don't know the monster's initiative. A full attack on the caster or paladin could be in order.
The teleport idea came up before and is a result of teamwork, not the paladin alone, assuming it goes as planned.Monster's initiative doesn't matter. The caster or paladin delays so they can do a teleport followed immediately by a full attack smite.
As for teamwork, sure. The players recognize that the easiest way to drop a powerful evil is to deliver the paladin next to it. No sense wasting other resources on it.
Well if the party is willing to wait for the monster to go first that tactic might not work. He might go invisible, put up a spell that grants concealment, and so on.
PS:Someone)Stringburka) did do another explanation of your idea so I will say that even when not smiting paladins do decent damage anyway, and they still have mercies, and spells.
I don't know which one of us is correct though between myself and Stringburka.
...combined with ranged combat.
Seriously. Our Paladin deals out absurdly high damage.
We are currently level 9-10.
We are at the point were a bad guy needs to have a lot more than 100 HP and AC in the 30s to be able to survive even the first round of combat.
Recently the group (mostly lvl 9 at the time) faced off against a young green dragon (CR11). This should, on paper, be a challenging encounter, but the Paldin dealt out s.th. like 150 damage in one round (rapid shot + many shot, deadly aim + the works). Granted, he did have dragon bane arrows, but I think the dragon would have gone down even without them.
I think any ability which lets you reliably instant-kill a dragon with CR 2 steps higher than your own level is probably overpowered.
A single monster with a CR equal to the average party level (APL) +1 or +2 will never be a challenge (except at first level). Hell, my players defeated easily a dragon with a CR equal to APL+3 (although they were 5, 6 if you count the Eidolon). Remember that you can go up to APL+4 to challenge your players (which means 4 CR10 monsters). Going higher than APL+4 is risking a TPK however.
Does your Paladin has Precise Shot? If he doesn't and the dragon is fighting a PC in melee AND the aforementioned PC is stuck between the dragon and the Paladin, the Paladin gets a -8 penalty on attack rolls (-4 for soft cover and -4 for firing into a melee). Even a dedicated archer could miss with this kind of penalties.
...combined with ranged combat.
Seriously. Our Paladin deals out absurdly high damage.
We are currently level 9-10.
We are at the point were a bad guy needs to have a lot more than 100 HP and AC in the 30s to be able to survive even the first round of combat.
Recently the group (mostly lvl 9 at the time) faced off against a young green dragon (CR11). This should, on paper, be a challenging encounter, but the Paldin dealt out s.th. like 150 damage in one round (rapid shot + many shot, deadly aim + the works). Granted, he did have dragon bane arrows, but I think the dragon would have gone down even without them.
I think any ability which lets you reliably instant-kill a dragon with CR 2 steps higher than your own level is probably overpowered.
Don't make every bad guy out there evil. Why is everyone always evil just because he opposes the group? He maybe even good aligned and just his goals conflict with the goals of the players...
Make the party guess what is his alignment (and the one of his friends) or use the detect X spells. If they don't the paladin will waste a lot of smite attempts plus he will not be able to instagib any enemy. Or make them use flickering winds a lot. This will annoy the hell out of the paladin because he obviously is a one trick pony and one trick ponies rise high to fall deep.
Its just like not having every monster out there having a vulnerability against fire if the wizard is a fire element specialist...
Green Dragons are inherently evil..
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The first thing that the dragon should have thought of would be teleporting in while the party was sleeping. Why attack when the group is prepared? Since there is no terrain fir the dragon to take advantage of, this is one of the only ways it could use the environment to it's advantage. Casting Darkness on itself (or better, Deeper Darkness) before teleporting in right next to the Paladin would have been an even better idea.
Archery by itself is powerful- an archer fighter with those dragonbane arrows would have done almost as well and that is without being specialized against big evil things like a paladin.
How is anyone teleporting right next to anyone?
How is anyone teleporting right next to anyone?
I think that the bad guys were scrying the PC and then teleported next to them (with a scroll or something).
How is anyone teleporting right next to anyone?
Greater Teleport. :)
Serious answer: I was not saying the caster teleport in a safe area, while the dragon end up beside the party.
On another note I was wondering how they teleported since all the bad guys are low level casters at best, but I just chalked it up to GM fiat.
Then again, maybe the Lamia Patriarch(or is that matriarch) is a high level caster though.
Indeed. The dragon sounds like a moron, and the paladin was in his absolute best scenario possible. Archery + Bane Arrows + Open Field + Smite Vulnerable Target + Distance to make it hurt versus an underbuffed dragon who was out of its element, lacking in options, and basically gift-wrapped and delivered in to the PC's hands via the teleport stuff.
It's a wonder they even had to roll initiative. *chuckles*
The PCs weren't buffed at the start of the combat, the bad guys were. That is an significant advantage. The rest of the envirinmental factors simply weren't disadvantegeous for the party.
Sure, the evil party could have placed better / more expensive buffs on the dragon.
But I find it still strange that a CR = APL +2 dragon has to have
- several really good buffs, with only some of them available to him without caster allies
- a surprise round
- terrain which caters to his strength
to NOT be eaten by breakfast by ONE character in ONE round.
the problem clearly is not the dragons supposedly "stupid tactics", but smite evil in conjunction with deadly aim, manyshot & rapid shot.
Many things in D&D suffer from overcompensation.
Look at the dwarf or the paladin. They are just horribly made...
Line up an outsider or dragon against a paladin? As long as it is evil it is dead in one round...
You gotta roll with it or just don't let your players play the horribly made thingies in D&D...
He wants to be a paladin? Let him be an inquisitor of a lawful good deity...
Look at the dwarf or the paladin.
-Whats wrong with the dwarf?
Line up an outsider or dragon against a paladin? As long as it is evil it is dead in one round...
...not in most people's games.
Look at the dwarf or the paladin.
-Whats wrong with the dwarf?
Best racial bonuses/abilities, by far.
A single monster with a CR equal to the average party level (APL) +1 or +2 will never be a challenge (except at first level). Hell, my players defeated easily a dragon with a CR equal to APL+3 (although they were 5, 6 if you count the Eidolon). Remember that you can go up to APL+4 to challenge your players (which means 4 CR10 monsters). Going higher than APL+4 is risking a TPK however.
As I stated before, the dragon wasn't alone. He had two stone giant allies (one of them a lvl 7 necromancer) and a lamia matriarch with two levels sorcerer with him.
Does your Paladin has Precise Shot?
Yes.
...not in most people's games.
Line up an outsider or dragon against a paladin? As long as it is evil it is dead in one round...
So what exactly can he do against an archer? Concealment would be his best chance... if the wizard hasn't forgotten to memorize that 1st level spell that is...
Otherwise? I don't see a lot of options the Dragon has to damage the party without exposing himself to the archer...
A single monster with a CR equal to the average party level (APL) +1 or +2 will never be a challenge (except at first level). Hell, my players defeated easily a dragon with a CR equal to APL+3 (although they were 5, 6 if you count the Eidolon). Remember that you can go up to APL+4 to challenge your players (which means 4 CR10 monsters). Going higher than APL+4 is risking a TPK however.
As I stated before, the dragon wasn't alone. He had two stone giant allies (one of them a lvl 7 necromancer) and a lamia matriarch with two levels sorcerer with him.
Does your Paladin has Precise Shot?Yes.
Did you miss my post about going invis before teleporting in, or teleporting right next to the party.
You mentioned a surprise round. What did the bad guys do with their standard action?
Archery by itself is powerful- an archer fighter with those dragonbane arrows would have done almost as well and that is without being specialized against big evil things like a paladin.
I doubt that. +6/+9 atk/dmg (+18 dmg on the first attack) is nothing to shrug at. The Fighter could compensate only a fraction of that woth weapon spec and weapon training (to be precise: +2/+4). It would have made the difference between dead or alive.
Many things in D&D suffer from overcompensation.Look at the dwarf or the paladin. They are just horribly made...
Line up an outsider or dragon against a paladin? As long as it is evil it is dead in one round...
You gotta roll with it or just don't let your players play the horribly made thingies in D&D...He wants to be a paladin? Let him be an inquisitor of a lawful good deity...
That evil aligned creature is only dead that swiftly in the hands of an incompetent GM. If such an antagonist is played without proper tactical intelligence, the Paladin is going to shred it. Furthermore, the PARTY would do so, even if the paladin did not.
If the Paladin is able to tactically maneuver himself into a position where he can take advantage of his capabilities against an enemy he is designed to fight, he deserves to shine.
A class being able to shine exceptionally in the area it is supposed to shine is not a design flaw.
Am I also the only GM who makes use of multiple, equally powered evil antagonists, rather than one big one? Forcing the Paladin to choose who to spend his smites on, forcing the party to divide their combative resources, can do a great deal towards allowing everyone the chance to shine.
The paladin's smite only works against one opponent at a time, afterall.
Best racial bonuses/abilities, by far.Look at the dwarf or the paladin.
-Whats wrong with the dwarf?
In 3.5 definitely. But in pathfinder I'm noticing a large drop in dwarf characters because their bonuses are placed oddly. They can't get a Strength bonus (fighter, barbarian), dex bonus (rogues), Int bonus (wizard), and their charisma penalty is actually a problem for being a cleric now. The only no brainer class for them now is druid.
Many things in D&D suffer from overcompensation.Look at the dwarf or the paladin. They are just horribly made...
Line up an outsider or dragon against a paladin? As long as it is evil it is dead in one round...
You gotta roll with it or just don't let your players play the horribly made thingies in D&D...He wants to be a paladin? Let him be an inquisitor of a lawful good deity...
That evil aligned creature is only dead that swiftly in the hands of an incompetent GM. If such an antagonist is played without proper tactical intelligence, the Paladin is going to shred it. Furthermore, the PARTY would do so, even if the paladin did not.
If the Paladin is able to tactically maneuver himself into a position where he can take advantage of his capabilities against an enemy he is designed to fight, he deserves to shine.
A class being able to shine exceptionally in the area it is supposed to shine is not a design flaw.
Am I also the only GM who makes use of multiple, equally powered evil antagonists, rather than one big one? Forcing the Paladin who to spend his smites on, forcing the party to divide their combative resources, can do a great deal towards allowing everyone the chance to shine.
The paladin's smite only works against one opponent at a time, afterall.
Oh great... so he can kill only one per round...
Did you miss my post about going invis before teleporting in, or teleporting right next to the party.You mentioned a surprise round. What did the bad guys do with their standard action?
They teleported in and then the lamia and the stone giant wizard went invisible on the first round (greater inv. in the case of the giant). They also had fly already cast (as well as haste, mage armor and some other stuff).
Am I also the only GM who makes use of multiple, equally powered evil antagonists, rather than one big one?
Please read the thread. I already mentioned twice that the dragon was not alone.
Oh great... so he can kill only one per round...
Many things in D&D suffer from overcompensation.Look at the dwarf or the paladin. They are just horribly made...
Line up an outsider or dragon against a paladin? As long as it is evil it is dead in one round...
You gotta roll with it or just don't let your players play the horribly made thingies in D&D...He wants to be a paladin? Let him be an inquisitor of a lawful good deity...
That evil aligned creature is only dead that swiftly in the hands of an incompetent GM. If such an antagonist is played without proper tactical intelligence, the Paladin is going to shred it. Furthermore, the PARTY would do so, even if the paladin did not.
If the Paladin is able to tactically maneuver himself into a position where he can take advantage of his capabilities against an enemy he is designed to fight, he deserves to shine.
A class being able to shine exceptionally in the area it is supposed to shine is not a design flaw.
Am I also the only GM who makes use of multiple, equally powered evil antagonists, rather than one big one? Forcing the Paladin who to spend his smites on, forcing the party to divide their combative resources, can do a great deal towards allowing everyone the chance to shine.
The paladin's smite only works against one opponent at a time, afterall.
And may be limited thereafter by where and how he can move, where he is in relation to other antagonists. A savvy BBEG could throw powerful minions in the paladin's path to force him to burn up his smites. He can (and should!) STUDY his enemy, learn how he fights, and tailor his defenses to deal with how the Paladin throws down.
Options, man. Determining that a class is too powerful because it shines in the most tactically obvious of situations (a straight up, toe to toe fight) is representative of an utter tactical failure of imagination on the part of the person doing the judging.
In 3.5 definitely. But in pathfinder I'm noticing a large drop in dwarf characters because their bonuses are placed oddly. They can't get a Strength bonus (fighter, barbarian), dex bonus (rogues), Int bonus (wizard), and their charisma penalty is actually a problem for being a cleric now. The only no brainer class for them now is druid.Best racial bonuses/abilities, by far.Look at the dwarf or the paladin.
-Whats wrong with the dwarf?
The channel is useless beyond level 7 anyway. Charisma was a problem for clerics in 3.5 because their channel could be used for caster level increases or even for fueling metamagic. Nowadays? Wow... a few d6 to heal if you can just cast a "heal"...
Oddly placed bonuses? Every character out there will want a bonus against will saves because most classes are bad at it. So one more stat you can at least dump to 8 and see it increased to 10 again all together with the +2 against spells. So its like having 14 wisdom as the other races, just saving you 7 points in the pointbuy. 32 pointbuy Fighter instead of the 25 pointbuy all together with +2 on fort and +2 on reflex saves? YES PLEASE.
So lets assume you buy a 16 on Str and up it to 18 with your Human bonus.. costs you 10 points... the dwarf can dump his Wis to 8 (or even 7 will still gain him a +1 netto on will saves), spend 17 points on str (if you are so focused on str) and laugh at the Human who has to put up his Wis to 12 (4 gained for 7, he has to pay 2 for 12 so you lost 1 pointbuy for gaining +2 Con) or his wis to 14 (you gained nothing but a free +2 to Con).
I mean you can easily get a 18 14 16 7 9 7 in a low power 15 pointbuy campaign as a Fighter... for that the human would have to buy 16(+2) 14 16 7 9 7... which doesn't work out because its a 16 pointbuy while still having worse saves than the dwarf...
Strength bonus is only relevant if you want to go really max damage. If you wanna tank as a fighter or be balanced a +2 on con might suit you well.
The only 2 types of classes I can't see him fit well are wizardies (int based) and sorcereries (cha based). This includes the bard etc pp...
And may be limited thereafter by where and how he can move, where he is in relation to other antagonists. A savvy BBEG could throw powerful minions in the paladin's path to force him to burn up his smites. He can (and should!) STUDY his enemy, learn how he fights, and tailor his defenses to deal with how the Paladin throws down.Options, man. Determining that a class is too powerful because it shines in the most tactically obvious of situations (a straight up, toe to toe fight) is representative of an utter tactical failure of imagination on the part of the person...
So he throws POWERFUL minions at him against which he has to use up all his smite evils (not even saving up one for the BBEG? He has 2 to spend already and has the 3rd ready for the BBEG).
Wow... this have to be some really powerful minions the group would otherwise need a long time to chew through then. The smite evil is well placed here... heading for an Average Group Level + 6to8 encounter already?Archers are not dependend on toe to toe fights. They see the target (and probably the wizard has to cast a glitterdust or the druid a fearie fire) and they can go full power... Its not the good old "OH difficult terrain, you can't charge him!" game.
So how can he protect himself? Concealment or Invisibility? A simple Glitterdust will get rid of all that? Mirror Image? Might save his life for one round. Getting a DR? Useless.
You could just tell me his technique to be protected from that archering Paladin...
The only 2 types of classes I can't see him fit well are wizardies (int based) and sorcereries (cha based). This includes the bard etc pp...
The dwarf can go well anywhere except Cha based casting. Even loosing the int for a wizard isn't that bad with the increased survivability. They're just not the best of anything except defense, and defense is a loosing proposition in this game (and not usually fun)
In 3.5 definitely. But in pathfinder I'm noticing a large drop in dwarf characters because their bonuses are placed oddly. They can't get a Strength bonus (fighter, barbarian), dex bonus (rogues), Int bonus (wizard), and their charisma penalty is actually a problem for being a cleric now. The only no brainer class for them now is druid.Best racial bonuses/abilities, by far.Look at the dwarf or the paladin.
-Whats wrong with the dwarf?
The channel is useless beyond level 7 anyway. Charisma was a problem for clerics in 3.5 because their channel could be used for caster level increases or even for fueling metamagic. Nowadays? Wow... a few d6 to heal if you can just cast a "heal"...
Oddly placed bonuses? Every character out there will want a bonus against will saves because most classes are bad at it. So one more stat you can at least dump to 8 and see it increased to 10 again all together with the +2 against spells. So its like having 14 wisdom as the other races, just saving you 7 points in the pointbuy. 32 pointbuy Fighter instead of the 25 pointbuy all together with +2 on fort and +2 on reflex saves? YES PLEASE.
So lets assume you buy a 16 on Str and up it to 18 with your Human bonus.. costs you 10 points... the dwarf can dump his Wis to 8 (or even 7 will still gain him a +1 netto on will saves), spend 17 points on str (if you are so focused on str) and laugh at the Human who has to put up his Wis to 12 (4 gained for 7, he has to pay 2 for 12 so you lost 1 pointbuy for gaining +2 Con) or his wis to 14 (you gained nothing but a free +2 to Con).
I mean you can easily get a 18 14 16 7 9 7 in a low power 15 pointbuy campaign as a Fighter... for that the human would have to buy 16(+2) 14 16 7 9 7... which doesn't work out because its a 16 pointbuy while still having worse saves than the dwarf...Strength bonus is only relevant if you want to go really max damage. If you wanna tank as a fighter...
Channel is not useless. It stops you from burning spells and other consumables, and it stretches the adventuring day.
The dwarf can go well anywhere except Cha based casting. Even loosing the int for a wizard isn't that bad with the increased survivability. They're just not the best of anything except defense, and defense is a loosing proposition in this game (and not usually fun)
The only 2 types of classes I can't see him fit well are wizardies (int based) and sorcereries (cha based). This includes the bard etc pp...
Many wizards I have seen are dumping all stats to get 18 as a base attribute on Int and 20 with their racial bonus to have the max DC.
So if you are planning to be a high DC wizard don't go dwarf.You wanna play a GOD Wizard (battlefield control/summoning)? Who the hell cares about whether your Int is 16 or 20 :P
Channel is not useless. It stops you from burning spells and other consumables, and it stretches the adventuring day.
Compared to 3.5? Channel is REALLY useless. So saying its "important now" is a bit... weird...
At level 7 I lose 4d6 healing and at lvl 11 6d6 of healing per day... for a +2 on all saves and +2 con (assuming you did put your +2 on wis) plus stability bonus plus plus?
Not mentioning that with a medium armor and the travel domain (farstrider and the domain ability) you move with 40ft as a dwarf and only with 35ft as anybody else (assuming 30ft base speed). I perfectly see how the disadvantage of having 20ft base movement kicks in here...
And may be limited thereafter by where and how he can move, where he is in relation to other antagonists. A savvy BBEG could throw powerful minions in the paladin's path to force him to burn up his smites. He can (and should!) STUDY his enemy, learn how he fights, and tailor his defenses to deal with how the Paladin throws down.Options, man. Determining that a class is too powerful because it shines in the most tactically obvious of situations (a straight up, toe to toe fight) is representative of an utter tactical failure of imagination on the part of the person...
So he throws POWERFUL minions at him against which he has to use up all his smite evils (not even saving up one for the BBEG? He has 2 to spend already and has the 3rd ready for the BBEG).
Wow... this have to be some really powerful minions the group would otherwise need a long time to chew through then. The smite evil is well placed here... heading for an Average Group Level + 6to8 encounter already?Archers are not dependend on toe to toe fights. They see the target (and probably the wizard has to cast a glitterdust or the druid a fearie fire) and they can go full power... Its not the good old "OH difficult terrain, you can't charge him!" game.
So how can he protect himself? Concealment or Invisibility? A simple Glitterdust will get rid of all that? Mirror Image? Might save his life for one round. Getting a DR? Useless.You could just tell me his technique to be protected from that archering Paladin...
You don't even need powerful minions, just something to slow him down.
I tell you what, give a scenario you think a paladin would ruin and I am sure someone can tell you how to run it so that it is challenging.Actually I already did for the OP. They could have all come in with invis on, and used the standard action for something else.
For glitterdust to work you have to pick the area the opponent is in. Mirror image makes you miss a lot on average. I have no idea where you are getting one round from. DR also helps.
They teleported in and then the lamia and the stone giant wizard went invisible on the first round (greater inv. in the case of the giant). They also had fly already cast (as well as haste, mage armor and some other stuff).
Any particular reason why they didn't cast Invisibility before teleporting in? And why they didn't also cast it on the dragon?
That little change would likely have made a big difference in how fast the bad guys went down.