Smite Evil is great. Maybe too great...


Pathfinder First Edition General Discussion

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wraithstrike wrote:


Why do you keep assuming the dragon used the scroll when there were two other casters?

Ok dude. Lets keep this straight. He didnt have a 12th level caster. So he had to cast the scroll himself because he is HUGE.

Can we FINALLY agree on that or are there any housemade/freemade rules you seem to view as Core or RAI or RAW I don't know of?

I am really not the type to diss/discredit other people "uhuhuhu have you really 14 int to use common sense" but this is really starting to bug me out.

Honestly.
Quit it.

Read the rules or stop arguing with us.


Pathfinder Companion, Maps Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber
Alienfreak wrote:
wraithstrike wrote:


Why do you keep assuming the dragon used the scroll when there were two other casters?

Ok dude. Lets keep this straight. He didnt have a 12th level caster. So he had to cast the scroll himself because he is HUGE.

Can we FINALLY agree on that or are there any housemade/freemade rules you seem to view as Core or RAI or RAW I don't know of?

I am really not the type to diss/discredit other people "uhuhuhu have you really 14 int to use common sense" but this is really starting to bug me out.

Honestly.
Quit it.

Read the rules or stop arguing with us.

Please note that Hyla admitted that she had thought that the dragon was only large and that it could be included in the teleportation by one of the other casters.

It was not Wraithstrike that made the error.

He is using only the information provided by Hyla as to what the situation was. He has not harped on forest, water, magic items, etc..

Edit: to correct spelling of a name


Mistwalker wrote:


Please note that Hyla admitted that she had thought that the dragon was only large and that it could be included in the teleportation by one of the other casters.

It was not Wraithstrike that made the error.

He is using only the information provided by Hyla as to what the situation was. He has not harped on forest, water, magic items, etc..

Edit: to correct spelling of a name

Error or not its a MAJOR advantage to the dragon it usually doesn't have so its certainly doesn't get his CR decreased for having buffs running PLUS having an advantage.

This is really getting stupid in here...


Pathfinder Companion, Maps Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber
Diego Rossi wrote:
Mistwalker wrote:

And if the giants stay at 60' distance, on the other side of the entrance, lobbing boulders at it, they can destroy it. If the PCs buff, then exit, the giants simply withdraw.

If the PCs pursue, they end up in an ambush situation when the lamia and dragon pounce on them.

If the PCs do not pursue, then their buffs expire and a couple of hours later, the dragon's party attacks in earnest. The PCs at this point have no Secure Shelter.

It's all about using the right tactics.

Extremely funny, we should assume intelligent NPC and stupid PC all the time?

Option 1): the paladin get near the door and is hasted, a ally wait till the next round and open the door just before the paladin initiative count (free action to speak outside the pally round and say "ready"). The pally use smite on one of the giants and deliver his 5 arrows. Stone giant with 24-25 AC (better than standard) get hit 4 time out of 5 for 12+3d6 (giant bane bow)x4= 90 hp of damage. Another 12 hp of damage by any of the pally companions and he is dead. almost guaranteed that the attacker will lose one of their own before withdrawing.

option 2) the party buff up then all take the delay action till the wizard is ready to dimension door/teleport right behind the giants.
1 initiative tick after they have teleported they all act (barring the wizard) unleashing their better attacks. With a bit of attention to their positioning before being teleported they can have the meele guys within 5' from the giants and the archer in the back outside the giant reach.

option 3) the giants use improved invisibility, so the party don't know their exact position (the wizard will probably have see invisibility, but maybe he failed memorizing it). Dimension door/teleport to a safe location without the giants being wise about that (they don't se inside the shelter). Stalemate (or the giants get a free scrying casting every hour in your scenario?).

I con go on for countless scenarios, depending on party resources and other factors. Generally hit and run tactics from NPC work only if you can force the players in doing what you want.
As already pointed out the players have some kind of safe house protected by scrying. It is very hard to get them if they aren't willing to collaborate.
You can get a series of stalemates, and that can be good for the BEEG as they usually want time to complete their plans, but it will not help the giant party.

I missed where it said that the players had a safe house protected from scrying. I had understood the opposite. Could you point out the appropriate post?

As for tactics, the ones that I provided fitted with the information that was provided. There was no mention of secure shelter.

Yes, I am sure that you can go on for a long time, one upping my tactics by changing the resources available to the party. Can you do so with the information already provided?

1) Please note that I said that they would be attacking from the back of the shelter, on the far side of the door. While I did not mention it, I also had envisioned them moving around, as throwing a boulder is a standard action, so movement is possible.
Also note that the paladin would not be able to see the giants, as on an overcast night, his low-light vision would not allow him to see, so no shots until he got close.

2) How would the non-darkvision sighted mage know where to dimension door? guess? somehow, I have trouble with the idea that a wizard could guess accurately enough to be able to DD right next to the giants, even if there was a window and given directions by one of the others.

3) Then the giants and dragon go on to destroy the villages, towns and cities that the party was protecting. Please remember that the PCs headed to where they were so that the expected attack would occur in a desolate place, not near friends.


Pathfinder Companion, Maps Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber
Alienfreak wrote:
Mistwalker wrote:


Please note that Hyla admitted that she had thought that the dragon was only large and that it could be included in the teleportation by one of the other casters.

It was not Wraithstrike that made the error.

He is using only the information provided by Hyla as to what the situation was. He has not harped on forest, water, magic items, etc..

Edit: to correct spelling of a name

Error or not its a MAJOR advantage to the dragon it usually doesn't have so its certainly doesn't get his CR decreased for having buffs running PLUS having an advantage.

This is really getting stupid in here...

I took it as a major disadvantage to the dragon. If he had arrived by flight, then he would have been able to attack with an advantage, and not have to use it's first actions to get airborne.


On a related note, is there any way to ignore folks on these forums? Because there are two in here that desperately need it.


Quote:
Of course this is completely maxed out (Int 24 in level needs a +4 stat booster item - none of our players has one at the moment) and disregarding the dragons SR of 22.

-You have a maxed out archer but your casters can't max out? And have no gear/have not started making gear.

-A +4 to your main stat at that level is standard.

- 18 starting, +2 race, +2 item +1 at 4th +1 at 8th. So no, that's not completely maxed out.

-Your paladin is using four feats: point blank shot, precise shot, many shot, and rapid shot.

-I'm not even getting into meta magic rod of X cheese here.

Quote:
This would lower the chance of success to about 20-25% - not too great (in other words the spell will likely fail).

Depends on the caster. Elf wizard with the spell penetration feats would have around 35% chance total.

Forgot about the sr *shrug*. This is going to start happening a lot as you level up. The only difference is that under ideal conditions archers are in the initiative game along with the wizards.

Quote:
Also the range of the spell is just 70 ft or so. This means that in our scenario the wizard could not have cast it at all.

Ride 40 feet and cast.

You wanted to know if there was something wrong with what you did or the CR system that made the fight that easy. The answer is both. PC's at that level are VERY powerful, and so are their foes. Either can one shot the other rather easily under the right circumstances

We told you, specifically, what you could have done to make it as hard as you think it should be.

The dragon tried scry and die tactics, wasn't sufficiently buffed, didn't make use of his spells, didn't make sufficient use of his consumables, didn't make use of cover or concealment. If your players are optimizing you need to throw harder enemies at them or be smarter with the ones you have.

-mage armor, cast on the dragons own, lasts hours and would have added 4 to the ac (armor bonus stacks with natural armor bonus)

-Mirror image -eats arrows.

-Cheesier, but still fair, masterwork/magical studded leather armor barding. The dragon takes the armor check penalty to many rules. The armor check penalty is zero.

-A scarecrow/illusion of scary looking black armor, a crest, with spikes sitting on his back. Describe it to your players and see how many shoot at it.

-Obscuring mist to hide in

-Change/alter self to look like a silver dragon, Use bluff (its a class skill) against the party to beg for help against the bad guys fighting him.

-This is why dragons live in caves with escape routes. if you're fighting an archer or mages keep it so that he has to hit you around a corner. if you've got a melee group take to the skies and use breath weapon death from above.


Brox RedGloves wrote:
On a related note, is there any way to ignore folks on these forums? Because there are two in here that desperately need it.

What i do this time?

There's supposed to be an app for firefox that will do that. There is no board feature to do that, and the mods have said they don't want to be the kind of forum where that becomes necessary.

Liberty's Edge

Brox RedGloves wrote:
On a related note, is there any way to ignore folks on these forums? Because there are two in here that desperately need it.

There is a greasemonkey script, google it.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
Mistwalker wrote:
Please note that I said that they would be attacking from the back of the shelter, on the far side of the door.

So the whole party can leave the shelter while being protected by it.

Then they move outside and get a standard action or attack.
Depending on the guys spells there is a good chance of a seriously damaged/dead giant.
A lot of meele builds can move 60' and attack with vital strike.

You are assuming a cloud covered night. So how many night the giant party had to wait for it? In my area yesterday was the first cloud covered night in after 3 weeks of sunny days.

The OP said in one of her posts:

Hyla wrote:


It was the first time in weeks the players left their "mages private sanctum". The baddie (Mokmurian) was foaming mad at them because the players teleported into his stronghold and killed two lamia clerics (and nearly Xanesha, too).

So we know that the party has access to Mage's Private Sanctum and Teleport. Secure shelter was a alternate option as a sleep place [proposed by me] simply to make happy all the guys calling for an attack by night.

How the wizard see by night? Darkvision spell, magic item giving darkvision, other stuff.
How the gnome will see by night assuming a overcast night? friend casting dancing light near the target, faerie fire, any of countless spells and or powers that illuminate a target.
Without the full party rooster it is all guess work what they have available, but dancing light is almost guaranteed.

Mistwalker wrote:


I took it as a major disadvantage to the dragon. If he had arrived by flight, then he would have been able to attack with an advantage, and not have to use it's first actions to get airborne.

Being reduced to a pincushion before getting in range for any of his spells or his breath weapon would have helped him?

Flying dragons aren't famous for they stealth skill.


Diego Rossi wrote:

Being reduced to a pincushion before getting in range for any of his spells or his breath weapon would have helped him?

Flying dragons aren't famous for they stealth skill.

If we ignore the complete retardation of the spotting skills, there's still the fact that the dragon can charge 400 ft., a range where the paladin has a -6 on all attacks. Had he also come when there's windy (which shouldn't be too uncommon on open, temperate ground as I understood this to be), it would total a -10 on ranged attacks.

That would have made a difference.

Though I still prefer the thought of teleporting in invisible.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
BigNorseWolf wrote:


mage armor, cast on the dragons own, lasts hours and would have added 4 to the ac (armor bonus stacks with natural armor bonus)

If I am not mistaken, it has that spell up. The other options aren't available to a level 3 sorcerer unless he start burning scrolls.

If we assume the dragon has used scrolls and potions of "anything he need" we should start questioning how he get to have an hoard if he is burning it up at every fight.

In theory dragon & party are going to fight a group under their combined CR. We should assume they aren't going to spend all their resources for that.

This fight is not how I would have done it, but most suggestion I have seen err on the other side.
They go an want to tailor the group in a way to specifically deny the players options, to the point of re-tailoryng the sorcerer spells and the creature treasure to be specifically chosen for this encounter.

The giant group was probably underbuffed for the mission, somehow people assume that the players, even knowing that they are scryed upon, will make it easy for them.
Sleeping in the open where the enemy can easily teleport on top of them, making themselves targets in a overcast night and so on.
The average character is paranoid enough that it will not be so easy.

The thing I appreciate less in the OP maneuver was the dramatic flair of getting of having the attacker get on site fully visible and then becoming invisible/taking wing. On the other hand I would not have give out a surprise round to the attacking party as they were waited, not a surprise.


Diego Rossi wrote:
BigNorseWolf wrote:


I took it as a major disadvantage to the dragon. If he had arrived by flight, then he would have been able to attack with an advantage, and not have to use it's first actions to get airborne.

If I am not mistaken, it has that spell up. The other options aren't available to a level 3 sorcerer unless he start burning scrolls.

If we assume the dragon has used scrolls and potions of "anything he need" we should start questioning how he get to have an hoard if he is burning it up at every fight.

This isn't every fight. This is a fight in which he's forced to fight an enemy specifically designed to kill him, out of his own element. And using 500 gp's worth of potions out of a 21000 treasure horde isn't really that big of a deal either. In fact, it's less percentage than the paladin had in those dragon bane arrows.

Most of his fights will be against CR2 Elks in his forest, and the occacional adventurer that wants his treasures (most of which are hidden deep in some forest pond).


Diego Rossi wrote:
BigNorseWolf wrote:


I took it as a major disadvantage to the dragon. If he had arrived by flight, then he would have been able to attack with an advantage, and not have to use it's first actions to get airborne.

Wrong Wolfy Diego.


Pathfinder Companion, Maps Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber
Diego Rossi wrote:
The OP said in one of her posts:

Thank you, I had missed that post.

Diego Rossi wrote:
So we know that the party has access to Mage's Private Sanctum and Teleport. Secure shelter was a alternate option as a sleep place [proposed by me] simply to make happy all the guys calling for an attack by night.

But it does play a bit of havoc with the PC's plan to make the Giants think that only 2 PCs were present.

Diego Rossi wrote:
Mistwalker wrote:


I took it as a major disadvantage to the dragon. If he had arrived by flight, then he would have been able to attack with an advantage, and not have to use it's first actions to get airborne.

Being reduced to a pincushion before getting in range for any of his spells or his breath weapon would have helped him?

Flying dragons aren't famous for they stealth skill.

Well, the adult green dragon has a stealth of +10 (young has +9), so why don't we use that number (nice and round).

perception DC modifyer to spot anything is +1 per 10'.

So, if the dragon would fly in normally, it would have had a DC modifyer of +20. With an average roll of 10, the DC to spot the dragon at 200 feet would have been 40. I don't know many (actual, none) builds that have a +30 to perception at 9th or 10th level. It would then be able to attack, breath, sunder a quiver, etc...

It get's even worse if the dragon would run in, from 1000' away.


Pathfinder Companion, Maps Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber
Diego Rossi wrote:

This fight is not how I would have done it, but most suggestion I have seen err on the other side.

They go an want to tailor the group in a way to specifically deny the players options, to the point of re-tailoryng the sorcerer spells and the creature treasure to be specifically chosen for this encounter.

The giant group was probably underbuffed for the mission, somehow people assume that the players, even knowing that they are scryed upon, will make it easy for them.
Sleeping in the open where the enemy can easily teleport on top of them, making themselves targets in a overcast night and so on.
The average character is paranoid enough that it will not be so easy.

The thing I appreciate less in the OP maneuver was the dramatic flair of getting of having the attacker get on site fully visible and then becoming invisible/taking wing. On the other hand I would not have give out a surprise round to the attacking party as they were waited, not a surprise.

Some of us provided ways to make the fight more challenging, without changing the powers, spells, abilities, items, etc..

What we were suggesting was that the dragon's party also be played in a fashion that would have been a challenge for the PCs, and not result in a question of whether Smite Evil is overpowered.

As for the overcast night

Spoiler:
wasn't it Moumurian that used some hags to control the weather, to cause flooding? Any reason why they couldn't do the same on the night that the hit team went out?

That is one of the things that some of us have been saying, about using the bad guys resources appropriately.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
BigNorseWolf wrote:
Diego Rossi wrote:
BigNorseWolf wrote:


I took it as a major disadvantage to the dragon. If he had arrived by flight, then he would have been able to attack with an advantage, and not have to use it's first actions to get airborne.
Wrong Wolfy Diego.

Sorry, the right citation was this one:

"mage armor, cast on the dragons own, lasts hours and would have added 4 to the ac (armor bonus stacks with natural armor bonus)"

I have corrected the post.


Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Hyla wrote:
a) they did not make sense in the scope of the campaign

Then make it make sense, that's why you sit in the big seat. If you don't get it how do you expect your players too??

Hyla wrote:
b) they really should not be a prerequsite for running the game successfully.

The they you are talking about, are the skills of the opponent, the tools they employ. Would you send in a sorcerer and let them just use a sword or their natural bloodline abilities?

Hyla wrote:


Of course you can fight this by using elaborate tactics (or harder monsters). But thats not how its presented in the rules.

Using elabore tactics and envoronment to the monsters favour should INCREASE the CR, not be necessary for the base CR to be valid.

No, the CR takes into account the entire skill set of the creature involved. That's everything from Human bane arrows, potions armour etc... At this level, they are complex creatures each with their own stories and reasons for being there.

The bad guys don't commit suicide unless they is a good reason to do so.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
Mistwalker wrote:

Well, the adult green dragon has a stealth of +10 (young has +9), so why don't we use that number (nice and round).

You need concealment to hide. So unless our poor manoeuvrability, total fly skill of +4 after modifier dragon, is capable to fly nap of earth and hide under the curvature of the planet he has nothing to hide behind.

He could get a friend to cast invisibility on him, but he should be fairly near the attack point to use it.
A scroll or potion would be more useful, but again he would be 1, single, invisible green dragon against the whole party.

Note that +10 to stealth is the skill of the fully adult dragon.
Again maximized skill for a 12 HD young adult: +12 - 8 huge size modifier, dexterity is still 10. No racial bonus.
Total modified skill = +4.
The number in the Bestiary aren't modified for the creature size as it is always possible that the creature will change his size.

So, if the dragon would fly in normally, it would have had a DC modifyer of +20. With an average roll of 10, the DC to spot the dragon at 200 feet would have been 40. I don't know many (actual, none) builds that have a +30 to perception at 9th or 10th level. It would then be able to attack, breath, sunder a quiver, etc...

Mistwalker wrote:


It get's even worse if the dragon would run in, from 1000' away.

Like in not getting to attack and having its dexterity denied?

Run
You can run as a full-round action. If you do, you do not also get a 5-foot step. When you run, you can move up to four times your speed in a straight line (or three times your speed if you're in heavy armor). You lose any Dexterity bonus to AC unless you have the Run feat.

Run feat
You are swift of foot.
Benefit: When running, you move five times your normal speed (if wearing medium, light, or no armor and carrying no more than a medium load) or four times your speed (if wearing heavy armor or carrying a heavy load). If you make a jump after a running start (see the Acrobatics skill description), you gain a +4 bonus on your Acrobatics check. While running, you retain your Dexterity bonus to your Armor Class.

What is the equivalent flying feat?


Pathfinder Companion, Maps Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber
Diego Rossi wrote:
You need concealment to hide. So unless our poor manoeuvrability, total fly skill of +4 after modifier dragon, is capable to fly nap of earth and hide under the curvature of the planet he has nothing to hide behind.

well, unless the cleric happened to be using their 4 or 5 rounds for the day Eyes of Darkness domain power, then the dragon did have concealment, well, as long as he flew in at night, which is when I would have had him do so.

Diego Rossi wrote:
Mistwalker wrote:


It get's even worse if the dragon would run in, from 1000' away.
Like in not getting to attack and having its dexterity denied?

Hmm, what dex modifier? :) for things that big and with dex that low, I do not see any reason why they should worry about it.

You are correct, the full speed flight in should only have been 800', which would give a +80 to the DC.


Alienfreak wrote:
I mean you can kill your players without them standing a chance every single encounter in the game... not may table...

I don't think the OP wanted to kill the players. I think the OP wanted it to be slightly challenging, and was disappointed when the dragon dropped in round 1. I think they used sub-par tactics and were faced with a perfect storm where the dragon was hosed. The OP wanted the CR equivalent monster to be somewhat challenging to the party. That is understandable.

The players got a 'freebie' here. Throw them a tough encounter next time. Have them deal with a neutral or good human who thinks they are scum, via some slight either imagined or real. Make them figure their way out of that mess. (Think about a maiden's honor, or some such ordeal...That will drive the paladin into fits of despair.)

Game mastering is an art. You have to know the rules and your players. It is easy to kill PCs but really difficult to keep them on edge for a long time. That is what is fun. :) Paladins have great boons, and huge issues. Allow them to enjoy the boons, but don't ignore the moral quandaries they face.

For the record I have not (yet) used a coup de gras on a PC. I have sundered a few magic items and killed a wizard via teleportation into rock though.


Diego Rossi wrote:
Mistwalker wrote:

Well, the adult green dragon has a stealth of +10 (young has +9), so why don't we use that number (nice and round).

You need concealment to hide.

That would be clouds, myes... And it's completely within the realm of the DM to state it cloudy that day.

Diego Rossi wrote:


Like in not getting to attack and having its dexterity denied?

Run
You can run as a full-round action. If you do, you do not also get a 5-foot step. When you run, you can move up to four times your speed in a straight line (or three times your speed if you're in heavy armor). You lose any Dexterity bonus to AC unless you have the Run feat.

Run feat
You are swift of foot.
Benefit: When running, you move five times your normal speed (if wearing medium, light, or no armor and carrying no more than a medium load) or four times your speed (if wearing heavy armor or carrying a heavy load). If you make a jump after a running start (see the...

While I agree it's not a good tactic, the Run feat works with flying. Bolding a single word in the description doesn't mean the feat is just limited to ground speed, otherwise it would have been noted in the rules text. The description is basically just that - a short, fluffy description made for the PC's, primarily.

Grand Lodge

Diego Rossi wrote:
You need concealment to hide.

Shapeshift into a creature native to that environment, hide in plain sight without the feature.

Paladin:"Oh god, that deer is evil!"
Other player 1:"...I'm sorry, what did you just say, because I understood the words, they just didn't make sense."
Other player 2:"Why were you casting detect evil on a deer?"
Other player 3:"I think he's gone nuts, let's run away before he tries fighting us."


Wow. I've just read this entire thread to satisfy my curiosity and perhaps to support what I believe to be the best-ruled paladin in any roleplaying game I've played and I've learned two things:

1. Some people don't like the way other people DM.

2. Posts about paladins are never actually about paladins.

Now where are all the cavalier posts?

<ambles off>


Mistwalker wrote:


perception DC modifyer to spot anything is +1 per 10'.

Note: We don't use this rule this way, it is painfully absurd.

Groggie wrote:


The players got a 'freebie' here. Throw them a tough encounter next time. Have them deal with a neutral or good human who thinks they are scum, via some slight either imagined or real. Make them figure their way out of that mess. (Think about a maiden's honor, or some such ordeal...That will drive the paladin into fits of despair.)

Game mastering is an art. You have to know the rules and your players. It is easy to kill PCs but really difficult to keep them on edge for a long time. That is what is fun. :) Paladins have great boons, and huge issues. Allow them to enjoy the boons, but don't ignore the moral quandaries they face.

They did not get a "freebie". The fight with the giants & lamia went perfectly well.

You can also stop lecturing me about the "art of DMing", all. I have plenty (like nearly two decades) experience and think overall that my games are pretty enjoyable.

Its just that this is the first time I realized what a mid-level PF archer-paladin can do to a CR > CL dragon a hundred feet away. S.th. like this certainly was impossible in earlier versions of the game (at least with mostly core books being used) - and leads, to my mind, to the fact that monster CR are too low now, probably in general. I suspected this the first time as my players ate through the Fort Rannick Ogres with great speed & no troubles. Its no big deal, next time I WILL give out more potions / scrolls and maybe a few HD / class levels to the groups foes. Although

This monster :
Mokmurian
won't need any of this.

Liberty's Edge

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Pathfinder Companion Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
Mistwalker wrote:
Diego Rossi wrote:
You need concealment to hide. So unless our poor manoeuvrability, total fly skill of +4 after modifier dragon, is capable to fly nap of earth and hide under the curvature of the planet he has nothing to hide behind.

well, unless the cleric happened to be using their 4 or 5 rounds for the day Eyes of Darkness domain power, then the dragon did have concealment, well, as long as he flew in at night, which is when I would have had him do so.

Diego Rossi wrote:
Mistwalker wrote:


It get's even worse if the dragon would run in, from 1000' away.
Like in not getting to attack and having its dexterity denied?

Hmm, what dex modifier? :) for things that big and with dex that low, I do not see any reason why they should worry about it.

You are correct, the full speed flight in should only have been 800', which would give a +80 to the DC.

The dexterity modifier that allow you not to be sneak attacked.

For the night attack we are back to "the party will sleep out in the open to be slaughtered" I see.

stringburka wrote:
Diego Rossi wrote:
Mistwalker wrote:

Well, the adult green dragon has a stealth of +10 (young has +9), so why don't we use that number (nice and round).

You need concealment to hide.
That would be clouds, myes... And it's completely within the realm of the DM to state it cloudy that day.

Unless you go with "DM fiat" the clouds are at 50' feet from the ground the party have ample warning. Rarely you have clouds under than 1000 feet from the ground.

stringburka wrote:


While I agree it's not a good tactic, the Run feat works with flying. Bolding a single word in the description doesn't mean the feat is just limited to ground speed, otherwise it would have been noted in the rules text. The description is basically just that - a short, fluffy description made for the PC's, primarily.

No, you can easily have an equivalent feat for flying, but it will not be the Run feat.

Or you allow people to use the same feat for ground travel, flying, swimming, burrowing and whatever other form of movement people can use?

And the: what feat the dragon is throwing away to get his "fast flying" feat? And why it feel that it is a good choice to do that on a permanent basis?
Changing a feat because you feel that it will help against that specific group in that specific scenario is badwrongfu GMing.
It is all Ok to change a feat if you feel that it will make the creature more interesting, but there should be a reason for the creature to chose it.

Kais86 wrote:
Diego Rossi wrote:
You need concealment to hide.

Shapeshift into a creature native to that environment, hide in plain sight without the feature.

And what power/spell is using our young adult green dragon to do that?

If he is a Ancient green dragon with polymorph in disguise the situation is a bit different from the one depicted.


Goldenbraid wrote:
@Wraithstrike coolest name ever. Loved that spell, especially when persisted ;)

Thanks. I have had this name for a while. I actually had it before I learned about the spell which I eventually banned from use, but that is another discussion for another thread. :)


Diego Rossi wrote:
wraithstrike wrote:

Move? I never said the dragon was going anywhere. He can hover with a DC 15 fly check. Grab is not needed to grapple. That is like saying if a dragon has the improved grapple feat he could not grapple anyone with the bite attack. Grab is only needed to grapple as a free attack.

edit:The part you bolded is if the creature with grab does not want the grapple condition applied to itself. Maybe on the next round I just release the paladin as a free action. He should be prone. You can't fire a bow when prone. If he stands up he provokes.

With you I never get if you are in the habit of skimming posts and fail in noticing things or if you are simply a troll.

Here we go again, Maybe this time you will read it completely:

I thought we agreed most of the time. I am not a troll though.

Quote:


4) Now he need to hover. You either need a feat (called Hover, what a surprise) that a typical young adult green dragon hasn't, or you need to make a fly check, a skill that your grappled dragon will do at -2 due to the loss of dexterity.
Our dragon has a maximized fly skill for +12-4(huge)- 4 (poor maneuvrablity and wings)+0 (10 dex) -2 (dex penalty for being grappled)= 2. DC 15 he succeed with a 13+, if he fail he fall to the ground [it can't move, so even if it fail by less than 5 it can't satisfy the requirements for flying]. 60% of falling. In the middle of the enemy group. Nice.
And that is even allowing it to use a flying maneuver freely while being grappled.

4. Grapple does not make you lose dex. I will also add the dragon has a fly skill of 8 according to his writeup. The dragon had 13HD+3 for having fly as a class skill=16-4(huge)-4(poor maneuverability)=8.

Now the -4 to dex is a -2 to the dex modifier meaning when grappled the fly check is only +6. However the dragon only needs a 9 to meet the 15. Your forgot to account for the +3(class skill).

prd wrote:
Grappled: A grappled creature is restrained by a creature, trap, or effect. Grappled creatures cannot move and take a –4 penalty to Dexterity. A grappled creature takes a –2 penalty on all attack rolls and combat maneuver checks, except those made to grapple or escape a grapple. In addition, grappled creatures can take no action that requires two hands to perform. A grappled character who attempts to cast a spell must make a concentration check (DC 10 + grappler's CMB + spell level), or lose the spell. Grappled creatures cannot make attacks of opportunity.

That means with the penalty to dex he only have a 55% chance of making the fly check to hover. Most likely he will fail on the 2nd round if he does not use his free action to release the paladin. Of course the paladin make then have to make a DC 15 acrobatics check to land on its feet. In any even the giants should be over there in time to help the dragon tag team the pally unless the fighter places himself in harm's way. The giants should also be able to prevent any casters from teleporting the paladin out of danger by acting as a living barrier. Of course the Lamia Patriarch may be able to use slumber to put the fighter to sleep.

I don't like the idea of building a main baddy to take out one character. Using what the already dragon has to focus on the PC is one thing, but doing a total rework is not something I would use.

PS:I think the issue here is I don't count anything as moving unless it changes squares, and you do.


Alienfreak wrote:
wraithstrike wrote:


Why do you keep assuming the dragon used the scroll when there were two other casters?

Ok dude. Lets keep this straight. He didnt have a 12th level caster. So he had to cast the scroll himself because he is HUGE.

Can we FINALLY agree on that or are there any housemade/freemade rules you seem to view as Core or RAI or RAW I don't know of?

I am really not the type to diss/discredit other people "uhuhuhu have you really 14 int to use common sense" but this is really starting to bug me out.

Honestly.
Quit it.

Read the rules or stop arguing with us.

I see you decided to not read again. How the scroll works depends on caster level. The scroll could have been made at a higher caster level than 9. I stated that earlier. I also stated that the Lamia Patriarch had a higher caster level than the dragon so it had the best chance to use the scroll.

After checking the spell that would require a 24th level caster if the Lamia cast the spell. If the dragon cast the spell it requires an 18th level caster.
Maybe you should read the rules. Now if you want to argue that the likelyhood of having an 18th or 24th level caster around that is a different story.

That was you saying 14 int is not all that smart. I actually stated that someone with an int of 10 would not have followed the NPC's tactics.

How about you start to quote me so you can be sure I said whatever you are claiming I said. It is not that hard.

edit: As an example I never said he had a 12th level caster.


Mistwalker wrote:
Alienfreak wrote:
wraithstrike wrote:


Why do you keep assuming the dragon used the scroll when there were two other casters?

Ok dude. Lets keep this straight. He didnt have a 12th level caster. So he had to cast the scroll himself because he is HUGE.

Can we FINALLY agree on that or are there any housemade/freemade rules you seem to view as Core or RAI or RAW I don't know of?

I am really not the type to diss/discredit other people "uhuhuhu have you really 14 int to use common sense" but this is really starting to bug me out.

Honestly.
Quit it.

Read the rules or stop arguing with us.

Please note that Hyla admitted that she had thought that the dragon was only large and that it could be included in the teleportation by one of the other casters.

It was not Wraithstrike that made the error.

He is using only the information provided by Hyla as to what the situation was. He has not harped on forest, water, magic items, etc..

Edit: to correct spelling of a name

I pointed that out the first time it was brought up, but he is so busy looking for insults instead of debating the topic he overlooked it.

AF we can civil or not. The choice is yours.


Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Brox RedGloves wrote:
On a related note, is there any way to ignore folks on these forums? Because there are two in here that desperately need it.

No official way, but I bet if you do a forum search on either of the two names you will find the name of Mozilla Add-on which apparently does the job.. ;)

You are not alone - I prefer not to hide some names myself I like the idea that some people exist in this universe simply to make me look good and sound far more intelligent than I am.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
wraithstrike wrote:
Diego Rossi wrote:
wraithstrike wrote:

Move? I never said the dragon was going anywhere. He can hover with a DC 15 fly check. Grab is not needed to grapple. That is like saying if a dragon has the improved grapple feat he could not grapple anyone with the bite attack. Grab is only needed to grapple as a free attack.

edit:The part you bolded is if the creature with grab does not want the grapple condition applied to itself. Maybe on the next round I just release the paladin as a free action. He should be prone. You can't fire a bow when prone. If he stands up he provokes.

With you I never get if you are in the habit of skimming posts and fail in noticing things or if you are simply a troll.

Here we go again, Maybe this time you will read it completely:

I thought we agreed most of the time. I am not a troll though.

Quote:


4) Now he need to hover. You either need a feat (called Hover, what a surprise) that a typical young adult green dragon hasn't, or you need to make a fly check, a skill that your grappled dragon will do at -2 due to the loss of dexterity.
Our dragon has a maximized fly skill for +12-4(huge)- 4 (poor maneuvrablity and wings)+0 (10 dex) -2 (dex penalty for being grappled)= 2. DC 15 he succeed with a 13+, if he fail he fall to the ground [it can't move, so even if it fail by less than 5 it can't satisfy the requirements for flying]. 60% of falling. In the middle of the enemy group. Nice.
And that is even allowing it to use a flying maneuver freely while being grappled.

4. Grapple does not make you lose dex. I will also add the dragon has a fly skill of 8 according to his writeup. The dragon had 13HD+3 for having fly as a class skill=16-4(huge)-4(poor maneuverability)=8.

Now the -4 to dex is a -2 to the dex modifier meaning when grappled the fly check is only +6. However the dragon only needs a 9 to meet the 15. Your forgot to account for the +3(class skill).

prd wrote:
Grappled: A grappled creature is restrained by a creature, trap,...

You are right that I forgot the +3 for a class skill.

Grappling someone make you lose 4 point of dexterity. I see you use that in your math.

I mus say that saying that the dragon will grapple the paladin, keep him grappled while off turn and that if he fail the skill check the next turn he will drop him and fly as if there was no problem is bad GMiming.
It can be RAW but go completely against the spirit of the thing.
At that point you can simply drop him as a free action at the start of the dragon turn, hoover with little problem and grab him again at the end of the turn, never suffering for the hindrances of having him grappled. "Great" way to deny him the possibility to act.
How would you react to a player using a similar tactic?

"I thought we agreed most of the time. I am not a troll though."
I don't think you are, but I notice that we have this problem often. Either I am too fast in my explanation and assume they are clear or you tend to skim them too often.

I notice that it often end with you getting something different from what I was writing.
Look the thing about dexterity above. I did say that there is a "-2 (dex penalty for being grappled)", you go and say " Grapple does not make you lose dex." and then "Grappling someone make you lose 4 point of dexterity." [note that grappling someone make you grappled in return]
I suppose you thought I was speaking about the loss of dexterity from being grappled that there was in the 3.X version, but that was not what I was saying. You assumed something or skipped over it.
If you noticed I used exactly the word in the PRD "penalty" while you used the term "loss", something different in the rules.

You ended saying exactly what I was saying after negating it.


Diego Rossi wrote:

I mus say that saying that the dragon will grapple the paladin, keep him grappled while off turn and that if he fail the skill check the next turn he will drop him and fly as if there was no problem is bad GMiming.

It can be RAW but go completely against the spirit of the thing.
At that point you can simply drop him as a free action at the start of the dragon turn, hoover with little problem and grab him again at the end of the turn, never suffering for the hindrances of having him grappled. "Great" way to deny him the possibility to act.
How would you react to a player using a similar tactic?

Darn. I did skim. I saw "loss of dex" and locked in. I apologize. I will try slow down with my reading next time.

I don't think that idea is against the spirit(of the rules?). It is a good lockdown tactic, even if it was not how the devs envisioned it being used. If I keep grappling and releasing more than likely I will fail a fly check so I would try to not to have to do so for more than one round(enough time for the giant(actual creature)) barracade.

I would not mind if a PC did that. I never use any tactic I would not allow a PC to use. At the same time though I don't normally allow PC's to do things I would not do to them so if they ask about ____ I look it on how each side could use it.


Hyla wrote:
Mistwalker wrote:


perception DC modifyer to spot anything is +1 per 10'.

Note: We don't use this rule this way, it is painfully absurd.

Groggie wrote:


The players got a 'freebie' here. Throw them a tough encounter next time. Have them deal with a neutral or good human who thinks they are scum, via some slight either imagined or real. Make them figure their way out of that mess. (Think about a maiden's honor, or some such ordeal...That will drive the paladin into fits of despair.)

Game mastering is an art. You have to know the rules and your players. It is easy to kill PCs but really difficult to keep them on edge for a long time. That is what is fun. :) Paladins have great boons, and huge issues. Allow them to enjoy the boons, but don't ignore the moral quandaries they face.

They did not get a "freebie". The fight with the giants & lamia went perfectly well.

You can also stop lecturing me about the "art of DMing", all. I have plenty (like nearly two decades) experience and think overall that my games are pretty enjoyable.

Its just that this is the first time I realized what a mid-level PF archer-paladin can do to a CR > CL dragon a hundred feet away. S.th. like this certainly was impossible in earlier versions of the game (at least with mostly core books being used) - and leads, to my mind, to the fact that monster CR are too low now, probably in general. I suspected this the first time as my players ate through the Fort Rannick Ogres with great speed & no troubles. Its no big deal, next time I WILL give out more potions / scrolls and maybe a few HD / class levels to the groups foes. Although ** spoiler omitted ** won't need any of this.

Make sure you

Spoiler:
use his goggles and fogs to your advantage, they will really neuter the ranged paladin

Liberty's Edge

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Companion Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
wraithstrike wrote:


I don't think that idea is against the spirit(of the rules?). It is a good lockdown tactic, even if it was not how the devs envisioned it being used. If I keep grappling and releasing more than likely I will fail a fly check so I would try to not to have to do so for more than one round(enough time for the giant(actual creature)) barracade.

I would not mind if a PC did that. I never use any tactic I would not allow a PC to use. At the same time though I don't normally allow PC's to do things I would not do to them so if they ask about ____ I look it on how each side could use it.

It is not against the RAW, but to me it seem very much against the spirit of the rules.

Even if we play round by round it is for simplicity, the action are actually seamless.
So what we are depicting is "dragon swoop down, grab the paladin and hover for 6 second while keeping him grabbed. He need to make a fly check or it will crash to the ground".
What we do in this scenario is "Dragon swoop down and grab the paladin." "he keep him grappled at no cost for 6 seconds" "After 6 seconds he make a check to hoover, if he fall he drop the paladin to be capable to move"

The dragon play on the turn mechanics to avoid the drawbacks of its maneuver.

In a seamless environment if the dragon goal is to keep flying it would swoop down, grapple the paladin and immediately do its flying check to hover, if it is successful it will keep the paladin grappled.
If it fail the check it will drop the paladin in the same turn in which it swooped down, so leaving the paladin free to act in his turn (even if probably he will start it prone).


Glutton wrote:


Make sure you

** spoiler omitted **

Yes, I will do that. Before they meet him, the group (now lvl 10) should probably level up at least one more time though. Especially since I do not plan on them meeting him alone.


Diego Rossi wrote:
wraithstrike wrote:


I don't think that idea is against the spirit(of the rules?). It is a good lockdown tactic, even if it was not how the devs envisioned it being used. If I keep grappling and releasing more than likely I will fail a fly check so I would try to not to have to do so for more than one round(enough time for the giant(actual creature)) barracade.

I would not mind if a PC did that. I never use any tactic I would not allow a PC to use. At the same time though I don't normally allow PC's to do things I would not do to them so if they ask about ____ I look it on how each side could use it.

It is not against the RAW, but to me it seem very much against the spirit of the rules.

Even if we play round by round it is for simplicity, the action are actually seamless.
So what we are depicting is "dragon swoop down, grab the paladin and hover for 6 second while keeping him grabbed. He need to make a fly check or it will crash to the ground".
What we do in this scenario is "Dragon swoop down and grab the paladin." "he keep him grappled at no cost for 6 seconds" "After 6 seconds he make a check to hoover, if he fall he drop the paladin to be capable to move"

The dragon play on the turn mechanics to avoid the drawbacks of its maneuver.

Look at it like this the paladin's weight or struggling to be free is unbalancing the monster so if he holds on for two long he might fall so he drops the paladin out of the sky. Once he gets himself righted(balanced) he tries to scoop the paladin up again.

How long should the dragon maintain the hold without breaking the spirit of the game in your opinion?

edit:or does it have more to do with using a lockdown tactic?

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
wraithstrike wrote:


Look at it like this the paladin's weight or struggling to be free is unbalancing the monster so if he holds on for two long he might fall so he drops the paladin out of the sky. Once he gets himself righted(balanced) he tries to scoop the paladin up again.

How long should the dragon maintain the hold without breaking the spirit of the game in your opinion?

edit:or does it have more to do with using a lockdown tactic?

I was adding to the previous post while you were writing, I repeat it here:

Diego Rossi wrote:


The dragon play on the turn mechanics to avoid the drawbacks of its maneuver.

In a seamless environment if the dragon goal is to keep flying it would swoop down, grapple the paladin and immediately do its flying check to hover, if it is successful it will keep the paladin grappled.
If it fail the check it will drop the paladin in the same turn in which it swooped down, so leaving the paladin free to act in his turn (even if probably he will start it prone).

It has more to do with it being a lockdown tactic that become a almost 0 cost tactic only thanks to the round by round mechanics of the game.

The dragon get to lock down the paladin avoiding most of the drawbacks of its tactic.

A bit of editing for better grammar. English isn't my first language.


Diego Rossi wrote:
wraithstrike wrote:


Look at it like this the paladin's weight or struggling to be free is unbalancing the monster so if he holds on for two long he might fall so he drops the paladin out of the sky. Once he gets himself righted(balanced) he tries to scoop the paladin up again.

How long should the dragon maintain the hold without breaking the spirit of the game in your opinion?

edit:or does it have more to do with using a lockdown tactic?

I was adding to the previous post while you were writing, I repeat it here:

Diego Rossi wrote:


The dragon play on the turn mechanics to avoid the drawbacks of its maneuver.

In a seamless environment if the dragon goal is to keep flying it would swoop down, grapple the paladin and immediately do its flying check to hover, if it is successful it will keep the paladin grappled.
If it fail the check it will drop the paladin in the same turn in which it swooped down, so leaving the paladin free to act in his turn (even if probably he will start it prone).

It has more to do with it being a lockdown tactic that become a almost 0 cost tactic only thanks to the round by round mechanics of the game.

The dragon get to lock down the paladin avoiding most of the drawbacks of its tactic.

A bit of editing for better grammar. English isn't my first language.

While the grapple is very likely to succeed that fly check on average wont work twice in a row. Being on the ground with they party fighter is not the place to be. I consider it a dangerous tactic, not as dangerous as letting the pally get a chance to shoot the dragon, but it is far from an autowin. I only intended to use it as a staller to get the giants into place. I dont think it is viable to do otherwise.


As soon as I read the rules for smite evil, I houseruled them differently, as the dmg potential was so damn high. It's now constant, and damage is somewhere between the +1 dmg per level and fighters WS/GWS+WT level vs evil, half that vs. neutral (intelligent beings) and none vs good. Doesn't ignore DR either. Sorry. :p

I know many will disagree with such changes, but for me has made DMing more fun, and doesn't make the paladin be the main DPS'er in the long run - have to share that spot with everyone else, more or less. Everyone needs their place to shine, and frankly, were I a melee fighter, I would be pissed having an archer paladin in the party, as he would get all the glory. So to speak. Also, as a sidenote, I note to max BBEGs HPs, sometimes even doubling them, if it makes the fight more epic. :P

As for the topic; yes, imo, paladins does too much 'selective' dmg in contrast to low monster HP in pathfinder - one slip up and your BBEG is done for. (And perhaps I think the dmg overall in pathfinder is too high, but that's another discussion entirely.)

Bent


BrutaleBent wrote:

and frankly, were I a melee fighter, I would be pissed having an archer paladin in the party, as he would get all the glory.

Bent

Archers rangers and fighters also do a lot better than melee fighters.


I think maybe Paizo un-nerfed ranged combat too much.

I have half a mind to declare deadly aim as precision damage,so that it does not work with the second attack of manshot and also not once there is concealment (total concealment once the archer has improved precise shot).

EDIT:
Also using the 3.5 version of manyshot could really help.


Hyla wrote:

I think maybe Paizo un-nerfed ranged combat too much.

I have half a mind to declare deadly aim as precision damage,so that it does not work with the second attack of manshot and also not once there is concealment (total concealment once the archer has improved precise shot).

Every group is comfortable with different levels and styles of play. I would suggesting talking to your players though.

In the end though only you can decide what is best for your group. With that said I am out.

Happy gaming. :)

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
BrutaleBent wrote:

As soon as I read the rules for smite evil, I houseruled them differently, as the dmg potential was so damn high. It's now constant, and damage is somewhere between the +1 dmg per level and fighters WS/GWS+WT level vs evil, half that vs. neutral (intelligent beings) and none vs good. Doesn't ignore DR either. Sorry. :p

I have houseruled that the "special" DR aren't bypassed. For special I mean Epic or Vorpal, generally those DR that a +5 weapon can't bypass.

I am left with the x/- DR, but in my houserule, that DR can be bypassed by the paladin power even if +5 magical weapons can't bypass it.

The rule was stated before the start of the campaign. I did noticed the problem of the paladin bypassing that kind of "extreme" DR thanks to this forum and felt it needed to be addressed.
Houseruling in the middle of a campaign can generate problems, especially when you have some player that like to prepare all the future levels of his character in advance.


wraithstrike wrote:
Hyla wrote:

I think maybe Paizo un-nerfed ranged combat too much.

I have half a mind to declare deadly aim as precision damage,so that it does not work with the second attack of manshot and also not once there is concealment (total concealment once the archer has improved precise shot).

Every group is comfortable with different levels and styles of play. I would suggesting talking to your players though.

In the end though only you can decide what is best for your group. With that said I am out.

Happy gaming. :)

Oh, I won't change rules like this,affecting a PC during a campaign.


Hyla wrote:


Oh, I won't change rules like this,affecting a PC during a campaign.

Though I would still recommend that if his character is so much trouble for the campaign to make him have a look at the Inquisitor (probably with the Witch Hunter Archetype) and offer him a free remake of his character...


Alienfreak wrote:
Hyla wrote:


Oh, I won't change rules like this,affecting a PC during a campaign.
Though I would still recommend that if his character is so much trouble for the campaign to make him have a look at the Inquisitor (probably with the Witch Hunter Archetype) and offer him a free remake of his character...

That would be futile. He really likes his character, and now that I am forwarned I do not expect the campaign being disturbed too much.

Although I sensed subtile hints of frustration from the waraxe & shield dwarven fighter. He just can't compare in any way as far as damage output goes, and while his AC is great, the paladin's can even approach his AC very closely against a smite target.


Hyla wrote:


That would be futile. He really likes his character, and now that I am forwarned I do not expect the campaign being disturbed too much.

Although I sensed subtile hints of frustration from the waraxe & shield dwarven fighter. He just can't compare in any way as far as damage output goes, and while his AC is great, the paladin's can even approach his AC very closely against a smite target.

Well thats the point. You can make the enemies more cutthroat easily as a DM. Give them items, make them use evil tactics or even up their HPs and such.

But the ones paying for that are the rest of the party because they have a "hard" life already and just because the Paladin is a few power levels above them they will stand no real chance on their own soon and will have to rely on the Paladin even more. All the party should be approximately on one power level or the players left behind will often lose their fun.

AC is often even not the issue for archers because they stand back comfortably. Considering that he an up his AC to close that one of the dedicated tank while being able to stand back and deal more damage than probably his whole group together is just bad spirit for the other players...

If this continues and the other players get even more unhappier you might have to take a step and just force the player to remake his character whether he likes it or not. And of course most players like their characters once they are insanely overpowered... its fun to own after all...


Pathfinder Companion, Maps Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber
Diego Rossi wrote:
For the night attack we are back to "the party will sleep out in the open to be slaughtered" I see.

Why does night automatically mean "the party will sleep out in the open to be slaughtered" for you?

I did not suggest that the PCs would be defenceless against the dragon's party. I was proposing tactics that would allow the dragon's party to arrive on scene in a manner which would maximize their abilities.

Scrying had been used on both sides and the PCs had fought some of the dragon's allies. I took that to mean that the broad abilities of the PCs were known.

Hyla also stated that the PCs were trying to ambush the dragon's party, by having two PCs out in the open and two "hopefully" hidden. It was also stated that the paladin was sitting on a boulder with bow in hand.

The PCs had also killed at least one other allied dragon (or driven him off), in all likelyhood, the paladin had participated in that too. And as the NPCs of the world would have a fair idea on what Smite Evil means, they would have taken that into consideration when they planned their tactics.

Having only one PC (if that) able to see in the dark for the dragon's party's attack would be good tactics. It would get the paladin into melee range fast. By having the dragon fly in, it would be in control of it's own timings (and not have the accidental teleportation error occur).


Hyla wrote:
Its just that this is the first time I realized what a mid-level PF archer-paladin can do to a CR > CL dragon a hundred feet away. S.th. like this certainly was impossible in earlier versions of the game (at least with mostly core books being used) - and leads, to my mind, to the fact that monster CR are too low now, probably in general.

While it was entirely possible in earlier edition, it just wasn't the paladin that could. Casters could, and can, take out most opponents of CR=CL in a single action with relative ease if optimized. That said, dragons where intentionally under-CR'd before, so if you could quickly take out a CR 9 dragon in 3.5, it would probably be equal to quickly taking out a CR 11 dragon in PF. That's just dragons though.

I agree that CR are too low for an experienced party. CR should probably be seen more as a newbie guide to make encounters proper for other newbie players. CR are about right if you play un-optimized simple characters, but as soon as you're decently skilled the stock monsters simply don't hold up. You can usually get the CR to work if you optimize the monsters too, but that's a lot of work. With experienced players, count APL at least +1, maybe +2 if they're also playing well-optimized characters.

The thing is that some characters are easier to optimize than others. An archer paladin is very "obvious" and easy to build for max damage, other classes require a little more thinking. That said, I could see a ranger, fighter, monk, wizard, witch, cleric, and oracle having a good chance at taking that thing out of the fight on their first action.

Just compare it to a wizard with a hold monster spell and a rod of persistant spell... The dragon has to make two DC~26 saves or fall to it's death. That's a 88% chance to shut it down on the first try, on your first action, without being hasted.

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