...combined with ranged combat.
Seriously. Our Paladin deals out absurdly high damage.
We are currently level 9-10.
We are at the point were a bad guy needs to have a lot more than 100 HP and AC in the 30s to be able to survive even the first round of combat.
Recently the group (mostly lvl 9 at the time) faced off against a young green dragon (CR11). This should, on paper, be a challenging encounter, but the Paldin dealt out s.th. like 150 damage in one round (rapid shot + many shot, deadly aim + the works). Granted, he did have dragon bane arrows, but I think the dragon would have gone down even without them.
I think any ability which lets you reliably instant-kill a dragon with CR 2 steps higher than your own level is probably overpowered.
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Yep its strong until you fight something 2 CR higher thats Neutral then its useless.
Manyshot and Rapid Shot don't stack.
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I think any ability which lets you reliably instant-kill a dragon with CR 2 steps higher than your own level is probably overpowered.
Paladin's are especially effective against evil dragons, just like AOE wizards are especially effective against swarms, Rogues are good against traps, druids are good against animals, bards are good against social situations, and monks are... erm.. and clerics are against undead. Its just how it goes.
Also, the paladin did not use AN ability. The paladin used SEVERAL abilities, in conjunction, that worked with synergy, to do this. You put that kind of investment into your character you're supposed to get something back
Manyshot and Rapid Shot don't stack.
Actually in PF they do both only have the trigger of making a full attack action.
If you have both when you make a full attack you do one extra shot at your highest bonus and your first shot fires two arrows all for a -4 penalty.
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Manyshot and Rapid Shot don't stack.Actually in PF they do both only have the trigger of making a full attack action.
If you have both when you make a full attack you do one extra shot at your highest bonus and your first shot fires two arrows all for a -4 penalty.
What ?
Rapid Shot allows you to take -2 to all your attacks in a full-round attack action so that you can have one more ranged attack at your best attack bonus this round.Manyshot allows you to shoot two arrows on the first attack of a full-round action.
A guy with +15/+10, using Rapid Shot and Manyshot, would have +13/+13/+8 to attack, and the first attack would count as two separate arrows, so effectively it's 4 arrows shot.
I don't see where you get -4 to your attacks.
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Stand corrected - bleeding of versions issues.
That's still only 4 arrows being fired right? - did he crit with any?
It was a Paladin against a Dragon with bane weapons - kind of hard to complain balance when the DM has stacked it so highly in the Paladin's favor.
Manyshot and Rapid Shot don't stack.Actually in PF they do both only have the trigger of making a full attack action.
If you have both when you make a full attack you do one extra shot at your highest bonus and your first shot fires two arrows all for a -4 penalty.
What ?
Rapid Shot allows you to take -2 to all your attacks in a full-round attack action so that you can have one more ranged attack at your best attack bonus this round.
Manyshot allows you to shoot two arrows on the first attack of a full-round action.A guy with +15/+10, using Rapid Shot and Manyshot, would have +13/+13/+8 to attack, and the first attack would count as two separate arrows, so effectively it's 4 arrows shot.
I don't see where you get -4 to your attacks.
Yeah I realized that i miss typed there so its even better.
Stand corrected - bleeding of versions issues.
That's still only 4 arrows being fired right? - did he crit with any?
It was a Paladin against a Dragon with bane weapons - kind of hard to complain balance when the DM has stacked it so highly in the Paladin's favor.
smite evil is countered by silence as the paladin has to shout out
150/4......38 average damage per arrow is pretty good....dont forget smite bonus only affects the first attack, not every arrow
the bonus to damage on the first successful attack increases to 2 points of damage per level the paladin possesses
so he has done say 50 on the first arrow and 33 on each other???
having said that the bard in our kingmaker campaign pretty much shots up the place all day long. Archery is vastly imptoved In PF and is better than melee, IMEO
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smite evil is countered by silence as the paladin has to shout out.Stand corrected - bleeding of versions issues.
That's still only 4 arrows being fired right? - did he crit with any?
It was a Paladin against a Dragon with bane weapons - kind of hard to complain balance when the DM has stacked it so highly in the Paladin's favor.
Really, you're mixing flavour text with rules? Surely?
Smite (Su)
Once per day, a paladin can call out to the powers of good to aid her in her struggle against evil. As a swift action, the paladin chooses one target within sight to smite. If this target is evil, the paladin adds her Cha bonus (if any) to her attack rolls and adds her paladin level to all damage rolls made against the target of her smite. If the target of smite evil is an outsider with the evil subtype, an evil-aligned dragon, or an undead creature, the bonus to damage on the first successful attack increases to 2 points of damage per level the paladin possesses. Regardless of the target, smite evil attacks automatically bypass any DR the creature might possess.In addition, while smite evil is in effect, the paladin gains a deflection bonus equal to her Charisma modifier (if any) to her AC against attacks made by the target of the smite. If the paladin targets a creature that is not evil, the smite is wasted with no effect.
The smite evil effect remains until the target of the smite is dead or the next time the paladin rests and regains her uses of this ability. At 4th level, and at every three levels thereafter, the paladin may smite evil one additional time per day, as indicated on Table: Paladin, to a maximum of seven times per day at 19th level.
'Call out to the powers of good' does not imply shouting. My heart can 'call out' to my girlfriend, despite lacking lips.
The first sentence of many abilities sums up the ability with some graceful language. That's what I always assumed.
Maybe I'm wrong?
Do you have to shout?
Oh, come on. Maybe you should read something called Ultimate Magic, and another one called Ultimate Combat...
Chuckle.. i know i know. I've just yet to see anyone try them under the new systems, and i'm not sure how much the style feats benefit just them and how much they benefit anyone that can dip into unarmed fighter.
Smite evil is not countered by silence, come on.
Oh, I forgot to mention, the Paladin was buffed by haste - so he had five attacks (but I think one did not hit).
The paladin used SEVERAL abilities, in conjunction, that worked with synergy, to do this. You put that kind of investment into your character you're supposed to get something back
Agreed. Still, a dragon with CR 11 is supposed to be some kind of threat to a lvl 9 character, or do you disagree?
Maybe with the PF boost to the class abilities, the CRs are simply off?
Agreed. Still, a dragon with CR 11 is supposed to be some kind of threat to a lvl 9 character, or do you disagree?
Maybe with the PF boost to the class abilities, the CRs are simply off?
It depends. Did the dragon say "RAR! I'm a dragon! lets fight" if he did that he should die.. natural selection.
Did he have blur and mirror image up? those two are life savers.
or perhaps alter self to make himself look bright and shiny "Hello fair palladin, i need your assistance with a noble quest...." *approach within chomping distance ".... FOR LUNCH!"
If he spied on the party he might have used invisibility silent image to make a picture of himself on the ground, let the party attack it.. then charge out and grab the paladin's bow.
It would be cheap, but a scroll of windwall wouldn't be out of place. Im surprised mother dragons don't hand them out as they're pushing kids out of the nest.
Highly likely a mistake was made somewhere, double smite damage for the entire first round by failing to read errata is a common offender.
Still the dragon would likely have died in one round even if the paladin might have needed a little help, Bane arrows help alot ofcourse, averaging 36 additional damage on 4 hits with increased to hit chances.
Smite is a bit too powerful in my opinion, wait till the paladin gets to level 11 so everyone can smite..
Regarding the double damage first attack vs. first round - I will have to check that, but I think we used the rule correctly.
The dragon was a young adult green dragon, and therfore only did have access to lvl 1 spells - so no blur.
He had mage armor active though.
A paladin should crush dragons like a rogue disarms traps. That is: If he's there, dragons/traps shouldn't be a big issue.
And CR+2 IS a challenging encounter - to a fairly new party that don't have good teamwork and that aren't that used to the game. If you're experienced and/or skilled players with good feel for the tactical, count the APL as +1 or +2.
A few things:
- Single target opponents are generally easy because of action economy.
- Dragons are smart, even a young adult green has an Int score of 14 - like a really smart human. This is part of the CR. I don't know how they encountered him, but a dragon should have minions/guards to alert it of enemies. (not the guards, but knowing to use them).
- See the wealth line. Dragons have a lot of wealth. Some of it should probably be spent on magic items (especially consumables).
- It can breathe water and has a swim speed. If possible, it should try to use water to it's advantage.
- It has woodland stride. If possible, it should try to use foliage to it's advantage (forests are great at stopping ranged attackers by the way).
If a paladin with dragon bane arrows and access to buffs successfully ambushes and outsmarts a dragon, yes, it's dead.
Archery is on par with melee attacks now. Difference is that archery is used at range thus making flying a useless form of defense. There isn't much you can do when a party has an archer along with casters. They'll strip the dragon of its magical defenses and the archer will destroy it quickly, especially a paladin with smite evil.
The only defense I've found against this is greatly upping hit points. At higher level you can use fickle winds, but the casters usually strip that too for the archer.
Dragons at their listed hit points with listed capabilities are a fairly easy win for a party. It's pretty sad, but it is what it is. Single big bad evil guys are extremely weak against parties without a great deal of hit point or AC inflation.
I will add my voice to the chorus, bow focused Paladins/Smite Evil are GREAT against single evil creatures. We have a bow focused paladin (15th level)in our Kingmaker game and we work as a team. Any single evil creature just goes down. Lot's of attacks + really good to hit + LOTS of bonus damage + ignores any DR + teamwork = WIN.
What has worked to make our paladin less powerful;
- Don't use 1 BBEG, use several moderately big evil things. He can only Smite 1/round.
- Lot's of defenses that give concealment or miss chances
- non-evil
- avoid the "15 min work day"
- surround with minions so he suffers Aoo when shooting
- grapples
- disarms
- give him something else to do (saving innocents is always good)
Another, more controversial idea;
- use a society that sees ranged attacks as dishonorable and use the "act with honor (...and so forth)" part of the Code of Conduct. Note: Use this ONLY before the player plays a paladin, so they have a choice, do NOT try this with an existing character. This is not meant to start a paladin/moral debate.
I will add my voice to the chorus, bow focused Paladins/Smite Evil are GREAT against single evil creatures. We have a bow focused paladin (15th level)in our Kingmaker game and we work as a team. Any single evil creature just goes down. Lot's of attacks + really good to hit + LOTS of bonus damage + ignores any DR + teamwork = WIN.
The thing is,
a) the Dragon was not alone* (he even was hasted by an ally)
b) the other PCs did not help in the fight against the dragon at all (save the haste spell), so no teamwork.
*also present:
Xanesha (Lamia Matriarch / Sor 2)
Barl Breakbones (Stone Giant Necromancer 7)
Stone Giant (with better equipment: greatsword, studded leather armour)
both from RotR, conversions by www.d20pfsrd.com
I probably should have just used an adult dragon (CR 13 or 14). I guess my fault was to assume that dragons were the nearly unbeatable (or at least way better than the CR suggests) powerhouses I was used to from 3.5 - just does not seem to be the case anymore in PF.
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Green dragons possess the ability to move through dense foliage unimpeded. Wasn't this fight in thick/deep wood, nearby a water source, inside a large bramble mound, etc.? The majority of all green dragon fights would mostly likely suffer from LOS issues, severely hampering ranged attacks by interlopers.
Adult green dragons are also untraceable so there would be no way for the party to find one in the wild, the Green Dragon finds them! Though I think you said you used a young adult which doesn't yet have this ability.
Sounds like the Paladin was well buffed by party members, so in essence it wasn't only the paladin's actions that took down this dragon. It was a party effort. Plus it seems the party managed to discover and come upon their foes at the party's advantage as well and at range with no LOS problems. As far as green dragons are concerned they were able to sucker punch the dragon in his home ground, so that sounds about right.
Evil doers FEAR the paladin! In-game big bad evil things curl their fingers, flinch away, widen their eyes, and hiss between barred teeth at the mere mention of a Paladin. They are truly a force for Good to be reckoned with in PF! Not evil, not so bad! As it should be. :)
snip
The fight took part on open ground, in the winterly Cinderlands. The bad guys teleported there, fully buffed, but the player characters knew they were beingh scryed and expected s.th. like this.
The thing is,a) the Dragon was not alone* (he even was hasted by an ally)
b) the other PCs did not help in the fight against the dragon at all (save the haste spell), so no teamwork.*also present:
Xanesha (Lamia Matriarch / Sor 2)
Barl Breakbones (Stone Giant Necromancer 7)
Stone Giant (with better equipment: greatsword, studded leather armour)both from RotR, conversions by www.d20pfsrd.com
I probably should have just used an adult dragon (CR 13 or 14). I guess my fault was to assume that dragons were the nearly unbeatable (or at least way better than the CR suggests) powerhouses I was used to from 3.5 - just does not seem to be the case anymore in PF.
Pathfinder dragons are only about as frightening as their CR suggests. On a side note, I can't help but to wonder why this adult red dragon didn't bother to use any consumables. Dragons have articulate hands and can cast spells a sorcerers, and have goo-gobs of treasure; so I can't help but wonder why this didn't include a few potions, a scroll, or a wand or two (maybe with a few charges each). Makes you wonder how the fool ever reached adulthood. :P
Also, if he had a buddy for haste, he also had a buddy who could have cast some protective buffs on him as well (such as blur).
Pathfinder dragons are only about as frightening as their CR suggests. On a side note, I can't help but to wonder why this adult red dragon didn't bother to use any consumables. Dragons have articulate hands and can cast spells a sorcerers, and have goo-gobs of treasure; so I can't help but wonder why this didn't include a few potions, a scroll, or a wand or two (maybe with a few charges each). Makes you wonder how the fool ever reached adulthood. :P
Also, if he had a buddy for haste, he also had a buddy who could have cast some protective buffs on him as well (such as blur).
It was a young adult green dragon.
He was buffed with haste and mage armor.
Not completely shabby I think.
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He just killed some dragon's young child.
A young child that the mama dragon loved very, very dearly.
You know what to do.
He just killed some dragon's young child.
A young child that the mama dragon loved very, very dearly.
You know what to do.
Well, there is an adult red dragon allied with the bad guy.
In the fight with him (depending on what the players do), there will be stone giants rangers, maybe a stone giant fighter (in magical full plate harr harr), or if they are very stupid and/or reckless a stone giant/wizard 14 around. Since the latter will probably lead to a TPK I hope they are not.
I will do my best. ;)
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As others have said the dragon was played stupidly and it died stupidly.
Thats simply not true. It was not played "stupidly". It was an open field battle, in which the bad guys arrived (teleported in) buffed and thus even had an advantage on the party.
I can imagine no possible scenario where this dragon (alone) could have presented any challenge whatsoever against the party.
As soon as the paladin would have gotten his full attack - bye bye dragon.
To your haste comment: What do you think the dragon should have done if not use its melee attacks? Cast level 1 Spells? Use its scaaary acid breath with *5d6 acid damage* (an archer paladin WILL make a reflex save vs DC 20....). Pleas, do tell me, which powerful tactic I have failed to employ.
EDIT:
Oh, I just realized that one could interpret haste as non-applicable to natural attacks (and also not to monk unarmed attacks, since "holding a weapon" is spelled out explicitly). I don't use it that way in my game - a dragon gets an additional attack when hasted.
The Paladin has a QUIVER of dragon bane arrows? That alone tells me much. More than likely the campaign has been over generous with magic, and I highly suspect that the dragon itself was significantly underplayed in the encounter. But just having more magic than normal, can throw CR calculations out the window.
My players have complained that they have significantly less gear than suggested by the WPL chart.
The paladin had 10 dragon bane arrows (worth 1,600 gp).
A green dragon doesn't strike from the air... it makes hit and run tactics from the water, and dense foilage through which it moves with out impedance, in other words terrain which diminishes the usefulness of ranged combat. If it was a planned ambush encounter, it might even send skirmishers ahead of itself so that the group gets the wrong idea of what they're facing.
It was a kill team sent by the bad guy to finish off the PCs. There was no water or foliage around, bad for the dragon. But, I repeat: Water and foliage would NOT have made much difference.
However, a dragon should not need buff rounds to survive one round against an archer 2 levels lower than the CR. Period.
I wholeheartly agree.
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The Paladin has a QUIVER of dragon bane arrows? That alone tells me much. More than likely the campaign has been over generous with magic, and I highly suspect that the dragon itself was significantly underplayed in the encounter. But just having more magic than normal, can throw CR calculations out the window.
My players have complained that they have significantly less gear than suggested by the WPL chart.
The paladin had 10 dragon bane arrows (worth 1,600 gp).
It was a kill team sent by the bad guy to finish off the PCs. There was no water or foliage around, bad for the dragon. But, I repeat: Water and foliage would NOT have made much difference.A green dragon doesn't strike from the air... it makes hit and run tactics from the water, and dense foilage through which it moves with out impedance, in other words terrain which diminishes the usefulness of ranged combat. If it was a planned ambush encounter, it might even send skirmishers ahead of itself so that the group gets the wrong idea of what they're facing.
I can assure you: even if he didn't have those arrows, he still would have kicked the Dragon's teeth in, his first shot of each round deals double damage, he gets his charisma to hit, AC, and saves, finally he's using archery which is very powerful here.
Putting something evil in front of a paladin, you better be ready for it to get wrecked. Put an evil dragon, outsider, or undead in front of the paladin, you had better be ready for him to wreck it, unless it's CR is way higher than the party's level. Even then, it isn't going to be happy. Has your paladin player discovered that he doesn't need a bonus to hit and started using Deadly Aim? Believe me, it gets worse when they do.
As others have said the dragon was played stupidly and it died stupidly.Thats simply not true. It was not played "stupidly". It was an open field battle, in which the bad guys arrived (teleported in) buffed and thus even had an advantage on the party.Open field = advantage to party. This is a green dragon with abilities about moving through water and woodlands. You put it in an open field. At range from an archer. An archer who is custom designed to kill big bad evil dragons.
Even if the scenario had to happen on the plains you could have had it teleport next to the archer, in position to make AoO. AoO, disarm or sunder would have benefited the dragon.
As to the buffs: Mirror image would have done much more. Displacement would have done much more. Alter self and a surprise round would have done much more. Or invisibility. And that's not even counting the spells to stop arrows.
you did get that it was a young adult dragon right ?
As to 'you played it stupidly' it was played in a reasonable fashion in my opinion. All those buffs you mentioned are personal buffs, so not that easy to use by said dragon. Instead of thinking of roundabout illogical tactics to use against a party, you might play the bad guys a little less perfect - which is not stupid.
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The Paladin has a QUIVER of dragon bane arrows? That alone tells me much. More than likely the campaign has been over generous with magic, and I highly suspect that the dragon itself was significantly underplayed in the encounter. But just having more magic than normal, can throw CR calculations out the window.
My players have complained that they have significantly less gear than suggested by the WPL chart.
The paladin had 10 dragon bane arrows (worth 1,600 gp).
It was a kill team sent by the bad guy to finish off the PCs. There was no water or foliage around, bad for the dragon. But, I repeat: Water and foliage would NOT have made much difference.A green dragon doesn't strike from the air... it makes hit and run tactics from the water, and dense foilage through which it moves with out impedance, in other words terrain which diminishes the usefulness of ranged combat. If it was a planned ambush encounter, it might even send skirmishers ahead of itself so that the group gets the wrong idea of what they're facing.
10 Bane arrows are more than enough for a bow paladin to make an evil creature explode. You don't even need anything more than a bow that doesn't suck too much, and good stats.
It's basically two middle-level full-round attack with a "free" rapid shot, so potentially +45 damage during two rounds, helped by the smite. With a target having 85 HP... well.But let's assume lower level, like level 6 : it's 4-to-5 arrows, so 36-to-45 depending on haste or not. Add in the smite and DA, it's minimum 86 damage. Wait, wasn't the dragon's HP equal to 85 ?... oh.
The thing is,
a) the Dragon was not alone* (he even was hasted by an ally)
b) the other PCs did not help in the fight against the dragon at all (save the haste spell), so no teamwork.*also present:
Xanesha (Lamia Matriarch / Sor 2)
Barl Breakbones (Stone Giant Necromancer 7)
Stone Giant (with better equipment: greatsword, studded leather armour)both from RotR, conversions by www.d20pfsrd.com
I probably should have just used an adult dragon (CR 13 or 14). I guess my fault was to assume that dragons were the nearly unbeatable (or at least way better than the CR suggests) powerhouses I was used to from 3.5 - just does not seem to be the case anymore in PF.
-------------------------------------------------------
As others have said the dragon was played stupidly and it died stupidly.Thats simply not true. It was not played "stupidly". It was an open field battle, in which the bad guys arrived (teleported in) buffed and thus even had an advantage on the party.
I can imagine no possible scenario where this dragon (alone) could have presented any challenge whatsoever against the party.
As soon as the paladin would have gotten his full attack - bye bye dragon.
Can dragons with no caster level yet use scrolls or wands? Rangers who can't cast yet, can use wands. So I would guess wands = ok, scrolls = no.
Actually, I do think the dragon was buffed poorly. It sound's like the villians were in attack mode and decently aware of the parties strengths and should have taken steps to counter them. It should have teleported in with displacement or blur and invisibility up at a minimum. If it doesn't have those spells on it's list, buy a scroll and have someone else use it. At this level, such spells are cheap. If possible, get wands (with few chgs of mirror image or shield at least).
Our group scry-n-die the bad guys all the time, it sounds like it was handled poorly, at least the villians preperation sounds poor. Don't get me wrong, Smite Evil is powerful...very powerful against the proper foes. But I'm not sure this example is the best.
I can assure you: even if he didn't have those arrows, he still would have kicked the Dragon's teeth in, his first shot of each round deals double damage, he gets his charisma to hit, AC, and saves, finally he's using archery which is very powerful here.
Let's adress the bolded part. First of all, it's not first shot of every round, it's only the first hit of the Smite. Second of all, it's not double damage, it's 2 points of damage per paladin level (as opposed to the 1 point, which is usual).
Frankly, archery is powerful only if you're a ranger or a fighter, because it requires hell of a lot of feats and without Improved Precise Shot, cover and concealment are an issue.
Open ground and one dragon... Well, I'm not sure why are you surprised that it ended that way.
Indeed. The dragon sounds like a moron, and the paladin was in his absolute best scenario possible. Archery + Bane Arrows + Open Field + Smite Vulnerable Target + Distance to make it hurt versus an underbuffed dragon who was out of its element, lacking in options, and basically gift-wrapped and delivered in to the PC's hands via the teleport stuff.
It's a wonder they even had to roll initiative. *chuckles*
I can assure you: even if he didn't have those arrows, he still would have kicked the Dragon's teeth in, his first shot of each round deals double damage, he gets his charisma to hit, AC, and saves, finally he's using archery which is very powerful here.Let's adress the bolded part. First of all, it's not first shot of every round, it's only the first hit of the Smite. Second of all, it's not double damage, it's 2 points of damage per paladin level (as opposed to the 1 point, which is usual).
Frankly, archery is powerful only if you're a ranger or a fighter, because it requires hell of a lot of feats and without Improved Precise Shot, cover and concealment are an issue.
Open ground and one dragon... Well, I'm not sure why are you surprised that it ended that way.
Actually it's every hit of the smite until the target is dead. This isn't 3.5 here.
Indeed. The dragon sounds like a moron, and the paladin was in his absolute best scenario possible. Archery + Bane Arrows + Open Field + Smite Vulnerable Target + Distance to make it hurt versus an underbuffed dragon who was out of its element, lacking in options, and basically gift-wrapped and delivered in to the PC's hands via the teleport stuff.
It's a wonder they even had to roll initiative. *chuckles*
The PCs weren't buffed at the start of the combat, the bad guys were. That is an significant advantage. The rest of the envirinmental factors simply weren't disadvantegeous for the party.
Sure, the evil party could have placed better / more expensive buffs on the dragon.
But I find it still strange that a CR = APL +2 dragon has to have
- several really good buffs, with only some of them available to him without caster allies
- a surprise round
- terrain which caters to his strength
to NOT be eaten by breakfast by ONE character in ONE round.
the problem clearly is not the dragons supposedly "stupid tactics", but smite evil in conjunction with deadly aim, manyshot & rapid shot.
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Actually it's every hit of the smite until the target is dead. This isn't 3.5 here.I can assure you: even if he didn't have those arrows, he still would have kicked the Dragon's teeth in, his first shot of each round deals double damage, he gets his charisma to hit, AC, and saves, finally he's using archery which is very powerful here.Let's adress the bolded part. First of all, it's not first shot of every round, it's only the first hit of the Smite. Second of all, it's not double damage, it's 2 points of damage per paladin level (as opposed to the 1 point, which is usual).
Frankly, archery is powerful only if you're a ranger or a fighter, because it requires hell of a lot of feats and without Improved Precise Shot, cover and concealment are an issue.
Open ground and one dragon... Well, I'm not sure why are you surprised that it ended that way.
Toadkiller's point here wasn't to say Smite evil only works on the first attack ; but that only the first attack of a smite deals double damage against some specific evil targets.