The reason Divine Hunter is inferior to the core paladin is because she loses her auras. Aura of Courage is so much better than Shared Precision, and Aura of Care is laughable when compared with Aura of Resolve. The really big one to lose, however, is Aura of Justice. Losing that is the major game-breaker, in my opinion, and is not worth getting an extra feat.I'm more of an opinion that having Aura of Justice is game-breaker.
I have asked about it, but nobody says it is an issue when I have asked. I guess I will find out eventually since I have a paladin in my Carrion Crown game.
Again (because you obviously didn't get it):
He grapples you.
Either its the wizards turn (or cleric with some spells or whoever) or yours. If its yours you delay.
Its the Wizards turn (if it wasn't before). He teleports you 100 ft away.
Its your turn now: You full attack the dragon and will most likely kill him.
Actually I do get it. The problem is where are you teleporting too. 100 ft is not far enough by the way if those mirror images eat up enough attacks for the dragon to survive.
I don't care what the circumstances are. You shouldn't have to be excessively cutthroat (teleporting the dragon in, invisable, next to the paladin) for your enemies survive more than 1 round against a single character who's level is 2 less than the its CR. Firstly, it's just not as good for the story to be suddenly overwhelmed from all sides by enemies you can't see as it is to show the party what they are up against before the spells fly. Secondly, although its fine once in a while, that kind of circumstance should bring the CR -UP- not be required to maintain CR=APL+2 against a SINGLE character.
Yes, the dragon had a wizard friend and perhaps could have buffed him, but he should not have had to to present a challenge. According to the CR rules, a CR 11 monster is about equal in strength to a lvl 12 player character (CR for a human with PC class levels = lvl-1). So I say there is no circumstance in which anything resembling a lvl 9 character beating a character 3 levels higher than itself on the first round before any major buff's or strategies could even have been employed is acceptable. All things being equal, a CR 8 dragon should be a 50/50 chance of beating a 9th level PC.
And whats with people claiming archery is overpowered? Is rapid shot that different from simple 2-weapon fighting? If we had 2, 20th level fighters, one with a bow and the other with say... a double sword.
give them all the feats applicable to their fighting styles and their attacks are going to look like this:
Bow
Attacks: +29(x2manyshot) +29,+24,+19,+14
Damage: 1d8 composite longbow, +6 str, +5 weapon, +2d6 bane, +5 WT, +4 Wspecialization, +12 Deadaim)
Per Arrow Mean: 44 (anydice.com: 1d8+2d6+32)
44*6attacks = 264 damage
Attacks +29,+29,+24,+19,+14 (looks like we lost 31 damage from manyshot)
Damage: 1d8, +9 str +1/2 (two handed weapon), +5 weapon, +2d6 bane, +5 WT, +4 WS, +18 Powerattack (again, its a 2hander), +1d10+9 rend (which doesn't make sense but the rules just say when using two weapon fighting and we are)
Per Hit Mean: 67 (1d8+2d6+1d10+50)
67*5= 335 damage (oh look lack of manyshot didn't hurt us...)
Replace WT with smite as necessary.
I don't care what the circumstances are. You shouldn't have to be excessively cutthroat (teleporting the dragon in, invisable, next to the paladin) for your enemies survive more than 1 round against a single character who's level is 2 less than the its CR. Firstly, it's just not as good for the story to be suddenly overwhelmed from all sides by enemies you can't see as it is to show the party what they are up against before the spells fly. Secondly, although its fine once in a while, that kind of circumstance should bring the CR -UP- not be required to maintain CR=APL+2 against a SINGLE character.
That is not cutt throat. It is a realistic response. If you have enemies as powerful as you are you don't just give them an open shot at you. What is good for the story is subjective. Nobody suggested using those tactics all the time. The point of presenting them was to show that there are ways to challenge the party using the dragon, and its resources.Yes, the dragon had a wizard friend and perhaps could have buffed him, but he should not have had to to present a challenge. According to the CR rules, a CR 11 monster is about equal in strength to a lvl 12 player character (CR for a human with PC class levels = lvl-1). So I say there is no circumstance in which anything resembling a lvl 9 character beating a character 3 levels higher than itself on the first round before any major buff's or strategies could even have been employed is acceptable. All things being equal, a CR 8 dragon should be a 50/50 chance of beating a 9th level PC.
The CR rules are guidelines. As an example a level 10 commoner is the equivalent of a level 10 warrior or a level 8 fighter, but by the CR guidelines it is. Not all monsters of a CR are equal either so you can't just say a CR 8 monster is just as hard as another CR 8 monsters. They present challenges in different ways, and how hard they are is dependent upon how the party is made also. In short all things are almost never equal.
Archery is better than TWF. Your math is wrong because it is not including miss chance for AC at that level, weapon bonuses, and so on.
You also have not fully stated the character out to show how you got your numbers.
I understand that monsters challenge in different ways, but by definition should be the same amount of challenge as others of the same Challenge Rating... it is after all the way we RATE how much of a CHALLENGE it provides. And I stand on whatever abilities it has at it's disposal, if your an HD 12 fighing an HD 9 and its a fair fight (neither gets the jump on the other) the HD 12 should win.
I showed all relevant stats(those used for making the attacks and calculating the damage) and I did show weapon bonuses. Miss chance would be the same for either(same + to hit unless they have cover/concealment from your arrows) and is thus irrelevant.
I understand that monsters challenge in different ways, but by definition should be the same amount of challenge as others of the same Challenge Rating... it is after all the way we RATE how much of a CHALLENGE it provides. And I stand on whatever abilities it has at it's disposal, if your an HD 12 fighing an HD 9 and its a fair fight (neither gets the jump on the other) the HD 12 should win.
I showed all relevant stats(those used for making the attacks and calculating the damage) and I did show weapon bonuses. Miss chance would be the same for either(same + to hit unless they have cover/concealment from your arrows) and is thus irrelevant.
It does not matter what the definition is if it does not work that way at the table. A level 10 common and warrior are a mile apart when it comes to combat.
You did not do your math correctly because the damage would be different if you did. There is a formula for it in the DPR, and anther poster may be able to rearrange your stats to get more out of archery.
When I get back I will use what you have given me to do the actual math and I am sure that archery will be on top.
I'm not saying your wrong about the cr thing, but that just means crs need to be reworked if they are going to be used to build encounters. To your point sir: why would a commoner be worth the same xp as a warrior? My point still: if I send a cr 11 against a single lvl 9 it should not only not die on the first round (unless it has low hp and some instant death moves, certainly not a dragon) but should outright kill that player.
a cr 11 dragon should outmatch a pc or cr-3 in level. Can the dragon kill the paladin in 1 round? If so its fair. If not, something is wrong, either the CR for the dragon should be lower, or damage wasn't calculated properly, or something.
Regarding the archery, great, id love to see it. Remember it was a double sword, not double swords.
*Edit: ah, I forgot about point blank shot, in a fair fight the archer would be within 30 ft of the guy with the doublesword.
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I am quiet confused here.=
It is not as simple as you make it sound either.
I was using the OP's example though. In that example he had been scrying on the party so the dragon comes in already invised along with a lamia, and 2 giants who I did not even account for yet.If I run a dragon I will probably try to ambush the party so one rounding my dragons for one reason or another has never happened. I may also use favorable terrain. Since the party is normally hunting the dragon they are usually fighting on the bad guy's terms so run up and hit is never as easy as "run up and hit".
What a mean DM you are...
Dragons aren't stupid.
I am agreeing with you and praising you actually playing a creature as intelligently as it is.
Something others describe as "Cruel"
I don't care what the circumstances are. You shouldn't have to be excessively cutthroat (teleporting the dragon in, invisable, next to the paladin) for your enemies survive more than 1 round against a single character who's level is 2 less than the its CR. Firstly, it's just not as good for the story to be suddenly overwhelmed from all sides by enemies you can't see as it is to show the party what they are up against before the spells fly. Secondly, although its fine once in a while, that kind of circumstance should bring the CR -UP- not be required to maintain CR=APL+2 against a SINGLE character.Note, being smart is not being cut throat. Its already been pointed out that had the dragon been used in the proper environment and its powers used to their fullest extent there, this would have been a difficult fight. Alternatively, the dragon could have used some of its not inconsiderable treasure to tip the scales in its favor. (Potions, scrolls, etc.) Heck, even just using alter self (which the dragon can cast) before the encounter could have made this vastly different.
Yes, the dragon had a wizard friend and perhaps could have buffed him, but he should not have had to to present a challenge. According to the CR rules, a CR 11 monster is about equal in strength to a lvl 12 player character (CR for a human with PC class levels = lvl-1). So I say there is no circumstance in which anything resembling a lvl 9 character beating a character 3 levels higher than itself on the first round before any major buff's or strategies could even have been employed is acceptable. All things being equal, a CR 8 dragon should be a 50/50 chance of beating a 9th level PC.Actually, that's for NPC wealth, for PC wealth level = CR. I guess I can also point out that these characters were made with slightly higher than average stats, so that also tips the scales in the PCs favor. As does having arrows specifically designed to defeat this opponent.
And yes, the dragon can kill the paladin in...
check the back of the gamemastery guide, all the CR's are just as i described them for humanoid characters, and 1 chomp from a cr11 green dragon from under his raft wouldn't kill him. If it were a dragon powerful enough to kill him in one round and you did in fact have that happen you would in fact be a bad dm. What would be the fun for the player just going about his business and suddenly instant death? lol.
But I'm not trying to flame you. If you can think of all the potions and scrolls and spells to have cast in advance of the fight it certainly makes basic encounters into more challenging encounters and definitely makes them more interesting so i'd say that makes you a pretty good dm. But in a fair fight the higher level monster should have the advantage already and shouldn't need all these things to survive a single round with a single character.
Page 399 of the core rulebook says that a classed NPC with PC wealth is CR 1 higher than normal. That being said it doesn't change much. It's still a lvl 9 vs a lvl 11.
I'm glad that the dragon in your scenario doesn't end up killing the paladin in one round, makes the battle far more interesting but you said "yes, the dragon can kill the paladin in one round, he swims up from beneath the paladin's life raft and splinters it in two..." in response to: "Can the dragon kill the paladin in 1 round? If so its fair..."
So you get to either be right that this would make for good DM-ing at a decent challenge or you get to be right about the dragon being able to take the paladin as well as he can be taken by said paladin. You can't have both.
The way I see it, even in a favorable environment the dragon still dies on the paladins first turn. If it were a cr11 red dragon it would have been perfectly at home in the sky above the paladin rather than in the water and still would have been killed if the events transcribed by the OP had no errors.
a ECL=APL encounter should deplete the party of 4 heros of %20 of their resources, at ECL=APL+2 (forgeting about the dragons friends the dragon alone poses encounter level 11) he should be a "hard" fight for 4 heros (core rulebook page 397, table 12-1). Which means a single character, 1/4th of the group should not kill it outright on the first turn suffering only the depletion of resources that the arrows represent. The arrows were not %20 of the parties resources, they were not %20 of the paladins resources, and the encounter was supposed to be +2 harder than than requiring %20.
I'm not saying your wrong about the cr thing, but that just means crs need to be reworked if they are going to be used to build encounters. To your point sir: why would a commoner be worth the same xp as a warrior? My point still: if I send a cr 11 against a single lvl 9 it should not only not die on the first round (unless it has low hp and some instant death moves, certainly not a dragon) but should outright kill that player.
a cr 11 dragon should outmatch a pc or cr-3 in level. Can the dragon kill the paladin in 1 round? If so its fair. If not, something is wrong, either the CR for the dragon should be lower, or damage wasn't calculated properly, or something.
Regarding the archery, great, id love to see it. Remember it was a double sword, not double swords.
*Edit: ah, I forgot about point blank shot, in a fair fight the archer would be within 30 ft of the guy with the doublesword.
This thread says the entire build matters
I can't believe I was about to stat out a 20 level pc when I can use a 10th level one to prove the same point.Here we have Two-Paw Pete
Smiting Team Evil: ~99.13 DPR - +1 to hit is ~7.93 more, +1 damage is 3.25 more, an extra full-BAB attack is ~29.74 more
Smiting a jerk: ~66.63 DPR - +1 to hit is ~5.33 more, +1 damage is 3.25 more, an extra full-BAB attack is ~19.99 more
Not smiting at all: 31.40 DPR - +1 to hit is ~2.73 more, +1 damage is 2.99 more, an extra full-BAB attack is ~9.56 more
Then we have Pinpoint Patty, human paladin 10.
Smiting Team Evil: ~106.50 DPR - +1 to hit is ~8.56 more, +1 damage is 4.33 more, an extra full-BAB attack is 30.09 more
Smiting a jerk: ~70.40 DPR - +1 to hit is ~5.66 more, +1 damage is 4.33 more, an extra full-BAB attack is 19.89 more
Not smiting at all: ~41.70 DPR - +1 to hit is ~4.50 more, +1 damage is 2.57 more, an extra full-BAB attack is 12.09 more.
I.e.: +23/+23/+23/+23/+18, d6+24, (19-20) x3
Vs "Team Evil" AC 24 this turns out to 150.15 DPR if my calculations are correct.
Vs "Evil Dork" AC 24, we have 95.55 DPR and vs non-evil we have 33.75 DPR.
In any event you can take ranger, fighter and so on, and the archer comes out on top every time.
I posted the links to the build so you can adjust the TWF guy as needed if you think you could have made it better.
If you look through the thread you can find other builds. As the characters level up the archer should pull farther ahead.
I am quiet confused here.=
It is not as simple as you make it sound either.
I was using the OP's example though. In that example he had been scrying on the party so the dragon comes in already invised along with a lamia, and 2 giants who I did not even account for yet.If I run a dragon I will probably try to ambush the party so one rounding my dragons for one reason or another has never happened. I may also use favorable terrain. Since the party is normally hunting the dragon they are usually fighting on the bad guy's terms so run up and hit is never as easy as "run up and hit".
What a mean DM you are...
Dragons aren't stupid.
I am agreeing with you and praising you actually playing a creature as intelligently as it is.
Something others describe as "Cruel"
Ok, lol. I could not tell if you were agreeing with me or not. Thanks.
To those not agreeing with me:
I do agree that a CR +2 should be a challenge, but a CR +2 is not so much higher that it can play "softball", like the OP is doing, and still keep its threat level the same.
The CR system assumes the monster is making a legitimate effort to kill the PC's. If you are not, but you want a serious challenge then use a higher CR monster so you have more leeway.
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If you plan on using a stock monster then they don't get to use their treasure by the rules, but if you give you PC's better than 15 pb, and other helpers then expect to adjust the monsters in some way.
This thread says the entire build matters
I can't believe I was about to stat out a 20 level pc when I can use a 10th level one to prove the same point.Here we have Two-Paw Pete
Smiting Team Evil: ~99.13 DPR - +1 to hit is ~7.93 more, +1 damage is 3.25 more, an extra full-BAB attack is ~29.74 more
Smiting a jerk: ~66.63 DPR - +1 to hit is ~5.33 more, +1 damage is 3.25 more, an extra full-BAB attack is ~19.99 more
Not smiting at all: 31.40 DPR - +1 to hit is ~2.73 more, +1 damage is 2.99 more, an extra full-BAB attack is ~9.56 moreThen we have Pinpoint...
I'm not sure how to calculate potential damage based off hit accuracy but if you take a fighter with:
18 str
weapon training 2 doublesword
1 Exotic weapon doublesword
2 power attack
3 Weapon focus
4 weapon specialization
5 Two weapon fighting
6 double slice
7 improved two weapon fighting
he can put out (admittedly at max) 1d8+6(str+1/2)+9(pwratk w/2hands)+2(wpn spec) which is 21-22 damage a hit over 4 hits which is 88, with no magic gear.
I know it doesn't come out to as much as the paladin, but i compared a fighter with a doubleweapon to a fighter with a bow. Not a fighter with 2 one handers.
but I still don't see how there could be a difference. Rapid shot does +1 attack with -2 to hit, two weapon fighting does the same thing. Archers get many shot, but two weapon fighters get rend which adds damage without making a to hit roll similar to manyshot. Power attack is identical to dead aim. all class abilities should add the same damage no matter what weapon you choose.
Again I want to point out i'm not -trying- to be a dick (I can't tell if you think i'm just arguing to be "i'm bettar!"), sorry if i'm coming across as such. I'm just trying to pointing out there good builds out there that rival archery and bows aren't end all be all. But I welcome the chance to be shown what I'm missing, So please, what is different about the archery feats vs the two weapon feats?
The only thing I added was double weapon which, as a two handed weapon makes Str and Pwr attack 1.5x as much damage
If you plan on using a stock monster then they don't get to use their treasure by the rules, but if you give you PC's better than 15 pb, and other helpers then expect to adjust the monsters in some way.
^This^
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I see this thread quickly became a debate about whether Smite Evil is overpowered, but actually looking at the original post it seems to me that this became an issue because a frikkin dragon at APL+2 was killed in the first round, when they were hoping for a more epic battle.
Remember, that CR is a rule of thumb, and not a science. And it doesn't take into account for specific party combinations and synergies that can get out of control at the higher levels. If a GM is looking to stage an epic encounter and you see that one of the PCs can kill the monster in one round, then the GM needs to learn from experience in designing future encounters. And at the table, if this is your BBEG and you realize you made a mistake in the design, I think it's fair for the GM to fudge the HP upward.
Back to the main question of this thread: is Smite Evil overpowered? Well, if a PC, of any class, is using a certain ability over and over again to cakewalk through encounters, then it's time for the GM to adjust the encounters and vary the challenges, and force the players to think more creatively. At the same time, you do want the PC to get some reward for the skill they've invested in. GMing is as much an art as it is a science.
Thank you for the page number reference. I knew I saw it some where. Anyways, on the topic of the paladin, I was referring to dead as in "effectively not in the fight". You are correct, he's not truly dead. (Drowning most likely, but not dead.) Of course, if said paladin has friends, drowning is probably better than straight dead.A red dragon is going to be at home in a volcano, or heck, surprise them, put them in a forest and let the dragon set it on fire to start. He uses pyrotechnics at the start of the fight to block line of sight to him and force the fight to go his way.
I agree. Monsters played stupidly don't take nearly as many resources from a party as monsters played intelligently. This dragon was played stupidly....
I can't argue with most of that, but in this case the unintelligent part was being there. Or letting the Paladin get a turn. That party in a burning forest sounds like an awesome encounter (that I plan on stealing later, fair warning), but as soon as he's within 100 ft the paladin kills him in 1 round. For something that is supposed to be a challenging encounter for 4 of these people, something -else- went wrong. Be it math error or CR system fail, or other.
You're using two weapons to fight, that means you don't get to treat the weapon as 2 handed for power attack or for your strength bonus. You're using it as a weapon in one hand and a light weapon in the other.
Drat. But that should just make it equal again not worse, what am I missing?
This thread says the entire build matters
I can't believe I was about to stat out a 20 level pc when I can use a 10th level one to prove the same point.Here we have Two-Paw Pete
Smiting Team Evil: ~99.13 DPR - +1 to hit is ~7.93 more, +1 damage is 3.25 more, an extra full-BAB attack is ~29.74 more
Smiting a jerk: ~66.63 DPR - +1 to hit is ~5.33 more, +1 damage is 3.25 more, an extra full-BAB attack is ~19.99 more
Not smiting at all: 31.40 DPR - +1 to hit is ~2.73 more, +1 damage is 2.99 more, an extra full-BAB attack is ~9.56 moreThen we have Pinpoint...
I'm not sure how to calculate potential damage based off hit accuracy but if you take a fighter with:
18 str
weapon training 2 doublesword
1 Exotic weapon doublesword
2 power attack
3 Weapon focus
4 weapon specialization
5 Two weapon fighting
6 double slice
7 improved two weapon fightinghe can put out (admittedly at max) 1d8+6(str+1/2)+9(pwratk w/2hands)+2(wpn spec) which is 21-22 damage a hit over 4 hits which is 88, with no magic gear.
I know it doesn't come out to as much as the paladin, but i compared a fighter with a doubleweapon to a fighter with a bow. Not a fighter with 2 one handers.
but I still don't see how there could be a difference. Rapid shot does +1 attack with -2 to hit, two weapon fighting does the same thing. Archers get many shot, but two weapon fighters get rend which adds damage without making a to hit roll similar to manyshot. Power...
The first page of the the thread has the formula, and there is even a spreadsheet that was made.
Power attack applies different amounts of damage to the offhand attack.
Power Attack (Combat)
You can make exceptionally deadly melee attacks by sacrificing accuracy for strength.
Prerequisites: Str 13, base attack bonus +1.
Benefit: You can choose to take a –1 penalty on all melee attack rolls and combat maneuver checks to gain a +2 bonus on all melee damage rolls. This bonus to damage is increased by half (+50%) if you are making an attack with a two-handed weapon, a one handed weapon using two hands, or a primary natural weapon that adds 1-1/2 times your Strength modifier on damage rolls. This bonus to damage is halved (–50%) if you are making an attack with an off-hand weapon or secondary natural weapon. When your base attack bonus reaches +4, and every 4 points thereafter, the penalty increases by –1 and the bonus to damage increases by +2. You must choose to use this feat before making an attack roll, and its effects last until your next turn. The bonus damage does not apply to touch attacks or effects that do not deal hit point damage.
Are you calculating that bolded section in. Another issue is that manyshot gives you two arrows for one shot at the highest BAB. Effectively that is two full BAB attacks for damage. Rapid shot gives you another arrow at the same BAB before you start to take penalties for iterative attacks.
So in short the archer get 3 damaging attacks at full BAB techinically speaking even though there are only 2 attack rolls.
TWF gives you two at the highest BAB, and the last TWF attack is at lower BAB than the lowest
Example:
Two paw pete +18/+18/+13/+13 d4+28 (15-20/x2)
Pin Point patty Smiting a dragon/undead/fiend: Longbow +20(x2)/+20/+15
As you can see the archer only gets two shots, but that first shot releases two arrows.
There is also the fact that the archer can pour all of his money, or most of it at least, into one weapon.
The twf'er has to split his money between two weapons which means his attack bonus is lower.
Rapid shot give one more shot at highest with both at -2. Two weapon fighting does the same. And rend and many shot both basically add a die of damage +str without attack rolls.
I wasn't taking that part of power attack into account though.
Ok, I'll bite. When the paladin has no line of sight to the Dragon, how does the paladin kill him in 1 turn? The wizard cast haste so the paladin gets an extra shot. Now its the Paladin's turn. You have no line of sight to the red dragon thanks to the wall of smoke in front of him.
"I ready an action to attack him next time he attempts to attack us" if he doesn't come back I don't see a problem anyway.
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Edit: Dragon breathes a cone of flame through the smoke wall. He doesn't have to know where you are, AoE and all. Or casts more pyro-technics. Or waits for the forest fire to kill you.
I disagree, especially since not all dragons have cones, and also because all you have to do is spread out pretty wide.
Many shot gets damage bonuses, not just a di of damage.
Edit: Dragon breathes a cone of flame through the smoke wall. He doesn't have to know where you are, AoE and all. Or casts more pyro-technics. Or waits for the forest fire to kill you.
Cleric cast's protection from elements before the dragons next turn. a smoke wall wouldn't be %100 concealment but true would drastically lower his damage output either way, although I imagine its hard to miss a dragon as long as you know his general direction. (with zero from his dex to ac its a wonder why concealment helps him at all, if i can see part of him its only his armored hide preventing me from hurting him, but that's a problem with the to hit system i'm just throwing in another $0.02)
And if he waits 1d4 turns to do anything again I have time to all sorts of naughty stuff.
Edit: Manyshot doesn't say anything about a damage bonus
I disagree, especially since not all dragons have cones, and also because all you have to do is spread out pretty wide.
Hypothetical red dragon though, and I'm really only worried about the paladin so spreading is meh important.
Rapid shot give one more shot at highest with both at -2. Two weapon fighting does the same. And rend and many shot both basically add a die of damage +str without attack rolls.
I wasn't taking that part of power attack into account though.
The lower attack penalties mean a lot though, and the archer's both built by the same person have the TWF'er with a higher attack bonus. Archery while feat hungry is less so than TWF. That is a feat for weapon focus.
There is also the issue of the TWF'er having to focus more on one stat than another since the TWF feats require a certain dex. By putting those points into dex instead of strength it is affecting his attack roll and therefore his overall damage.That is why Two paw pete has
STR: 20 (+5) (14 base, +2 racial, +4 belt)
DEX: 17 (+3) (15 base, +2 level)
and
Pin point Patty has
STR: 14 (+2)
DEX: 22 (+6) (15 base, +2 racial, +1 level, +4 belt)
The bolded areas are what determine the to hit bonus for each build, and they were both made by the same person.
The TWF guy can never catch up, and if his power attacking may not always help. The archer can turn rapid shot off, and turn on deadly aim if needed. He can also turn both of them off since they are optional. A TWF can fight with one weapon, and do more damage, but at that point he is not using all those feats he invested in.
When an archer gets manyshot the game changes
Before manyshot at level 5 in a current PbP game
Full Attack PB Shot + Ranger Focus+ Deadly Aim+rapid shot
Attack 1: 1d20 + 11 ⇒ (2) + 11 = 13
Damage 1d8 + 12 ⇒ (7) + 12 = 19Attack 2: 1d20 + 11 ⇒ (5) + 11 = 16
Damage 1d8 + 12 ⇒ (4) + 12 = 16
When we level I get manyshot. Just take the top number and multiply it by two. I don't think a 6th level ranger(TWF'er) is going to do that.
Rapid shot give one more shot at highest with both at -2. Two weapon fighting does the same. And rend and many shot both basically add a die of damage +str without attack rolls.
I wasn't taking that part of power attack into account though.
Rend only works if two attacks hit. It will not go off as much.
Manyshot duplicates the first arrow, except for precision attacks like sneak attack
Manyshot (Combat)
You can fire multiple arrows at a single target.
Prerequisites: Dex 17, Point-Blank Shot, Rapid Shot, base attack bonus +6.
Benefit: When making a full-attack action with a bow, your first attack fires two arrows. If the attack hits, both arrows hit. Apply precision-based damage (such as sneak attack) and critical hit damage only once for this attack. Damage bonuses from using a composite bow with a high Strength bonus apply to each arrow, as do other damage bonuses, such as a ranger's favored enemy bonus. Damage reduction and resistances apply separately to each arrow.
The important thing is "as do other damage bonuses, such as a ranger's favored enemy bonus", since that includes the ranger's bonus, and smite among other things.
Two weapon rend does not allow that.
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I disagree, especially since not all dragons have cones, and also because all you have to do is spread out pretty wide.Hypothetical red dragon though, and I'm really only worried about the paladin so spreading is meh important.
I always suggest rings of evasion for paladins, brings them that much closer to being the ultimate dragon-killer.
If attacking with one weapon does more damage because there's more accuracy what about a greatsword (or a 2d8 fullblade if gm allows it...though I wouldn't)?
I suppose if archery really does own all I would get rid of manyshot, just call it vital strike. For example improved vital shot "shoots 3 arrows" at 3dwhatever and bonuses once.
What do you guys do with the situation?
And on the dragon we've still got 1d4 rounds to get that paladin in sight of the beast, a quick gust of wind would do the trick but that's not even thinking outside the box to move the paladin. You could even levitate the paladin and leave the rest of the party as a distraction
I don't care what the circumstances are. You shouldn't have to be excessively cutthroat (teleporting the dragon in, invisable, next to the paladin) for your enemies survive more than 1 round against a single character who's level is 2 less than the its CR. Firstly, it's just not as good for the story to be suddenly overwhelmed from all sides by enemies you can't see as it is to show the party what they are up against before the spells fly. Secondly, although its fine once in a while, that kind of circumstance should bring the CR -UP- not be required to maintain CR=APL+2 against a SINGLE character.
4
My thoughts exactly.
Random other stuff: The bad guys indeed came in with only lvl/min or longer buffs active. They only activated lvl/round buffs after arriving.
There was not greater teleport or lvl 11 caster involved. Teleportation scrolls were used.
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IMO, paladins don't need it, for dragons at least. A dragons' breath weapon, at CR = Paladin's level isn't going to do much of anything as is and certainly won't do anything a lay on hands won't fix.
Oh, I know. The ring is to spite the dragon. Combined with a ring of freedom of movement, the dragon's best options become "beat the paladin to death", "bring a bunch of buddies" or "run away, because the wee mortal is going to have his way with you", because divine grace make saves laughably easy, and smite makes combat laughably easy.
but as soon as he's within 100 ft the paladin kills him in 1 round
-Thats the entire point of the fire. With that much smoke around sight distance is going to be "the end of your nose" if you're lucky. The dragon could conceivably be within his own melee range and attacking with blind-sense while enjoying full conceleament
Note, being smart is not being cut throat. Its already been pointed out that had the dragon been used in the proper environment and its powers used to their fullest extent there, this would have been a difficult fight.
I have asked several times: HOW? Please describe the environment and the tactics the dragon could have conceivably utilized to make the fight difficult.
Please do NOT rely on an assload of buff spells the dragon has bought scrolls for.
If attacking with one weapon does more damage because there's more accuracy what about a greatsword (or a 2d8 fullblade if gm allows it...though I wouldn't)?
I suppose if archery really does own all I would get rid of manyshot, just call it vital strike. For example improved vital shot "shoots 3 arrows" at 3dwhatever and bonuses once.
What do you guys do with the situation?And on the dragon we've still got 1d4 rounds to get that paladin in sight of the beast, a quick gust of wind would do the trick but that's not even thinking outside the box to move the paladin. You could even levitate the paladin and leave the rest of the party as a distraction
Two handed weapon outdamages TWF'ing. It might even outdamage archery assuming a full attack is in play, but the melee guy has to close with the enemy, while the archer gets to full attack from across the board so with the lost attacks, by the end of the fight the archer still normally does more damage.
Archery is shut down by two lower level spells though, and it is feat intensive so it has its drawbacks.
Base damage on a weapon is not all that important. The bonuses are where the damage is from. As an example the best TWF core weapon to use is the kukri, and it only does 1d4.
The full blade takes up a feat and does an average of 9 points of base damage. The greatsword does 2d6 for an average of 7 points of base damage. If you spend a feat I dont think 2 more points of damage a hit is all that bad.
I have asked several times: HOW? Please describe the environment and the tactics the dragon could have conceivably utilized to make the fight difficult.
Please do NOT rely on an assload of buff spells the dragon has bought scrolls for.
-The dragon comes pre packaged with alter self and blur. Blur would have negated 1/5 of the arrows on average and alter self + disgiuse or bluff might have gotten him close enough to the paladin to be within melee range while the bow was still on his back
-The dragon comes pre packaged with alter self and blur. Blur would have negated 1/5 of the arrows on average and alter self + disgiuse or bluff might have gotten him close enough to the paladin to be within melee range while the bow was still on his back
Alter self does not help you much, if you are obviously prepared to attack (blur IS pretty obvious).
Blur also does not help the dragon all that much - mirror image would be the better choice and at least buy the dragon 1 round.
But even in melee range and with a surprise attack - as soon as the paladin gets to act, the dragon is toast.
I don't care what the circumstances are. You shouldn't have to be excessively cutthroat (teleporting the dragon in, invisable, next to the paladin) for your enemies survive more than 1 round against a single character who's level is 2 less than the its CR. Firstly, it's just not as good for the story to be suddenly overwhelmed from all sides by enemies you can't see as it is to show the party what they are up against before the spells fly. Secondly, although its fine once in a while, that kind of circumstance should bring the CR -UP- not be required to maintain CR=APL+2 against a SINGLE character.
4My thoughts exactly.
Random other stuff: The bad guys indeed came in with only lvl/min or longer buffs active. They only activated lvl/round buffs after arriving.
There was not greater teleport or lvl 11 caster involved. Teleportation scrolls were used.
What do you consider to be cutt throat? As I said before the CR chart assumes you are not holding back so the more holding back you want to do the higher the CR the fight should be so you have more leeway.
This is important because the players wont be holding back.
Mirror Image is min/level. Blur is min/level. Haste is not.
You are right, haste was the only exception.
The two other casters had mirror image active, but not the dragon (range: personal - also shield).
"I ready an action to attack him next time he attempts to attack us" if he doesn't come back I don't see a problem anyway.
You can only ready a standard, move, swift, or free action, so the paladin would only get one attack off. No Manyshot, no Rapid Shot, no Haste attack.
What do you consider to be cutt throat? As I said before the CR chart assumes you are not holding back so the more holding back you want to do the higher the CR the fight should be so you have more leeway.This is important because the players wont be holding back.
The question is: Is not selecting a range of chosen buffs on scrolls for a dragon, useful for him for exactly one combat holding back?
My thought is that doing so (selecting all the suggested buffing scrolls and allowing the dragon to enter the combat fully buffed - mind that he not normally has access to teleport!) should significantly RAISE the CR.
To my mind it works (or should work) that way: Pick a monster from the bestiary, go for it with what you find right there, on the monster page - that shold give you an encounter with approximately the CR you are going to find there.
Allowing the monster to elaboratly prepare for the PCs, get a surprise round, or HUGELY favourable terrain (attack while the PCs are climbing a cliff - come on!) should RAISE the CR. Thats even the way its described in the MM (or Core?).
-The dragon comes pre packaged with alter self and blur. Blur would have negated 1/5 of the arrows on average and alter self + disgiuse or bluff might have gotten him close enough to the paladin to be within melee range while the bow was still on his back
Alter self does not help you much, if you are obviously prepared to attack (blur IS pretty obvious).
Blur also does not help the dragon all that much - mirror image would be the better choice and at least buy the dragon 1 round.
But even in melee range and with a surprise attack - as soon as the paladin gets to act, the dragon is toast.
I would have had the fight somewhere else or changed the dragon to one that could take advantage of the environment. Have the lamia buff, and drop any useless spells the lamia had. Having the giant try to pound the paladins face in is also an option. I dont think he will be shooting arrows at a dragon with two giants breathing down his neck.
If the paladin is melee based attack from outside of its range. If the paladin is archery based then go melee with him.