While I agree, allow me one nitpick: A young adult green is large, not huge.
Monsters have no usables or any other magic items other than those stated in their statblock.
If you are giving them usables you are increasing the CR of that monster and thus making it better. That much for the CR+2 not being down in one round.
Also you rely on heavy caster support (teleporting a HUGE dragon counts for 4 creatures, so you have to be a lvl 12 caster to teleport him with you) plus casting about 3-4 buff spells on him. While this is perfectly legal by CR means it still shows us that the CR+2 creature has no chance of surviving one round because it will need an CR 11 Caster with him so he can teleport (since he cannot use a teleport scroll per se).
Young adult is listed as Base+3 in my E2 Bestiary (I have no idea if its probably different now). He starts of small so its 1. medium -> 2. large -> 3. huge.
If the dragon is along it will be an easier fight than a CR 11 dragon with backup. Really what it boils down to is your willingness to play hardball with the players. Being buffed does not matter that much if you aint willing to bring the pain. If you get the PC's on the ropes you can start to pull back, but once the PC's get you on the ropes it is really hard to do anything about it. I can guarantee that if you had cast all your buffs before teleporting in, and dropped right in front of the party, using my suggested tactics that fight would have been harder.Now if the dragon were alone he would have a much harder time in the situation he was in.
You also can't discount the players advanatages. They knew the bad guys were coming, and had an open field with an archer...
1. So what spells should the necromancer also have cast on him? Invisibility would be the only one he could have and which would have been good. But he owuld have attacked anyway after the teleport so why bother?
2. The dragon has freaking 14 Int. Everyone and his dog has this in D&D. This doesn't make you a friggin Einstein. Stop reminding us of this "Dragons are so smart" 2nd edition compulsive nerdness :P
3. The scry gives you vision of 10ft around the party. How should they know if its favourable terrain or not? They can't say anything besides what they see.
4. The CR and unfavourable terrain.
You could argue that CR should have been lowered by 1 because of this. But lets get back to the Scrying thingy. So they get scried upon by the caster, he knows the surroundings and uses a teleport scroll. Its a 9th CL scroll and thus he can bring about one giant with him.
How does the Huge Dragon come into this? Nobody could teleport him and he doesn't have any NPC Gear to spend on a teleport scroll... Ok you give him additional equipment which increases his CR because he is suddenly more potent (hey he can teleport onto your head).
Buuuuuuut... this brings us to another problem. The Necromancer scryed and knew your surroundings. But how did the dragon? The Scrying Spell says "you can observe a creature" and you is the caster. Shield for example also uses the "you".
So he has never seen it but wants to teleport there... So if we are REALLY nice to him it counts as "viewed once" because the Necromancer drew it or so (not that it would count... you will need Greater Teleport for that). Leading the dragon to a whooping 24% offtarget chance. Which will likely make you jsut "cheat" that roll.
So in the end you gave him equipment he cant have, did let him do something thats impossible with it (teleporting to something you have never seen) and even most likely cheating a dice.
And you guys are crying about him having CR reduced because of UNFAVOURABLE CONDITIONS!? And oyu would even have gone further and given him more scrolls and buffs and probably even more magical items just to make him "smart as a dragon" (14 int, lol).
Sometimes I really ask myself if we even play after the same rules. This Dragon was at least +1 CR for all the things the DM enabled him to do. And fighting a flying monster on a plain is not favorable terrain for the PCs. All APs prove that.
Favourable terrain would be most likely the PCs in some fortifications or even hardly reachable for the dragon. This dragon teleport right onto them with buffs enabled and everything... stop kidding me.
When you grapple you are grappled, no AoO for the dragon, so what block the caster from doing a few steps and casting free action/dimension door or other similar spells to free the paladin?
Thats why grappling is useless against him with backup if he is the most important character. The lvl 9 mage can easily teleport him out of the grapple. The cleric can easily cast freedom of movement on the paladin (which cleric doesn't have that spell remembered!?).
Only tripping can save the dragon. And thats because the rules are utterly stupid here and oyu need a feat to fire while prone. But if thats the only thing a clearly superior creature can do to the Paladin he will take the Prone Shooter feat next and thus you can't do it anymore
It is not as simple as you make it sound either.
I was using the OP's example though. In that example he had been scrying on the party so the dragon comes in already invised along with a lamia, and 2 giants who I did not even account for yet.If I run a dragon I will probably try to ambush the party so one rounding my dragons for one reason or another has never happened. I may also use favorable terrain. Since the party is normally hunting the dragon they are usually fighting on the bad guy's terms so run up and hit is never as easy as "run up and hit".
I am curious:
- these dragons never go out hunting?
- are always invisible and protected by buffing spells that last rounds or minutes for each spellcasting level?
- are constantly burning scrolls and potions to have full defences?
I see plenty of occasion to ambush dragons if you go hunting them.In the OP situation:
- teleport on top of the party (if all go well, you don't miss teleport, you know the terrain [scrying the location work only if you have an idea of where it is and at best give you the seen casually precision]);
- roll initiative (the OP said that the party was aware they were scried upon, so no surprise);
- there is a very good chance that the NPC party will lose the initiative (all large or bigger critters, most of them with non stellar initiative) and that the paladin will act before them. No sundering weapons on a AoO;
- Ooops, you have placed the NPC spellcaster in rage of the PC party;
- eat the paladin archer full attack wile doing at best 1 AoO against him for each NPC (but then you have used up all your AoO and the other party members will be free to do as they please).
The OP said they had been scrying each other, not that they were doing it right then. Even if they they were iv the bad guys come in invis'd the party won't know they are there. I will admit they are likely to lose init though. Most GM's handwave teleport scrolls for bad guys. I do understand you why some don't. I never said I need all the scrolls. My strategies involved using the Lamia's spells(which include invis, haste, and some others). I even said stock monsters don't get to use treasure.
Some of the stuff you attributed to me did not come from me. Of course had it been me I would have just not fought there. I don't know how far away the bad guys were originally, but an overland flight scroll may have been better. This is info I don't have.
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I can imagine no possible scenario where this dragon (alone) could have presented any challenge whatsoever against the party.
That's the issue - the attack had no imagination. sorry but it didn't.
A party of PC's that powerful is going to have a reputation; use some of the hoard to pay thieves to steal a bow... what til there is some cover to attack from, play to you teams strengths not their weaknesses etc..
Seriously.. it isn't about the Paladin or the smite. (as everyone else is commenting).
Don't rush yourself with the next encounter, if it's a big bad then let the suspense build and think through the combat, location, time of day etc..
All this "This fight would've been done the right way had you stolen or sundered his bow beforehand!" is beyond absurd.
100% of Pathfinder adventures are written stupidly. I mean, in Rise of the Runelords alone in like 1 book we've fought two dragons outside their element. I mean, there shouldn't be any White Dragons outside the frozen tundra where they are on their own turf. And Red Dragons? Only in the middle of volcanoes.
I am not sure which version or rotrl you played, but the white dragon was in an ice area and the red was well supported throughout...
YMMV if your GM nerfed it.
YMMV if your GM nerfed it.
Everyone not fighting Silver Dragons not on the top of clouds will get no XP at all because its like fighting a gold fish outside of its fish bowel!!!111oneoneoneleven
Yeah. It means that it wasn't a CR11 dragon anymore though, just like a dire shark wouldn't have been a CR9 monster.
EDIT: I think that the dragon's CR should have been adjusted like this:
Not in it's natural habitat: CR -1
Otherwise not using it's full potential: CR -1/-2The other monsters didn't seem to do much to help it, so no boost for being in a team.
Basically, it's a CR8-9ish encounter. Which should be taken down pretty fast by a 9th level party, especially if one of the members is specialized at dealing with dragons.
If the dragon had been played smart, it could have been a decent challenge for the party, even alone. If it had used some tactics with the other assassins, it would've smashed the party to bits.
It has a whoopy +8 on stealth. A lvl 9 party would have never spotted it. -10 to CR.
I am begining to get the impression that this thread and Hyla are a bit of a troll.
Several posters have suggested things that do not require more scrolls, potions or other gear, suggested tactics that could have made the fight more challenging.
Those posts and comments are being ignored. Those posts are/were in response to Hyla's request for examples of what could have been done differently, to make the fight more challenging, to counter her claim that Smite and Bows are broken.
The fight scene seems to change a bit, depending on the comment made by others. The paladin, in round one was able to get 5 shots off, be buffed by himself and another PC.
So, I am wondering how the paladin, in a surprise attack, was able to equipe his bow, buff himself and get 5 shots off.
Any reasonable suggestions are ignored or disregarded.
Ex: Why didn't they arrive invisible? This would of allowed them to cast other spells, like wind wall.
When wind wall was mentioned, it was brushed off, saying that it was dispelled the next round. Well, that is a round that the caster isn't buffing, controlling or damaging the dragon party.
Hence, why I am coming to the opinion that this is a troll thread, or a venting thread.
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Everyone not fighting Silver Dragons not on the top of clouds will get no XP at all because its like fighting a gold fish outside of its fish bowel!!!111oneoneoneleven
YMMV if your GM nerfed it.
No, but when you compare a black dragon to a green you see the setting matters.
In a deep forest, a green dragon is much, much more effective.
In a deep forest, a green dragon is much, much more effective.
A silver dragon on clouds is much much more effective.
Having a Fire Elemental fight the group in a pit of magma is making it much much more effective.
Also I don't get how he should have tricked the Paladin with the Alter Self spell. He doesn't have this one as SL and can't cast it??
I can imagine no possible scenario where this dragon (alone) could have presented any challenge whatsoever against the party.
That's the issue - the attack had no imagination. sorry but it didn't.
A party of PC's that powerful is going to have a reputation; use some of the hoard to pay thieves to steal a bow... what til there is some cover to attack from, play to you teams strengths not their weaknesses etc..
Seriously.. it isn't about the Paladin or the smite. (as everyone else is commenting).
Don't rush yourself with the next encounter, if it's a big bad then let the suspense build and think through the combat, location, time of day etc..
All this "This fight would've been done the right way had you stolen or sundered his bow beforehand!" is beyond absurd.
100% of Pathfinder adventures are written stupidly. I mean, in Rise of the Runelords alone in like 1 book we've fought two dragons outside their element. I mean, there shouldn't be any White Dragons outside the frozen tundra where they are on their own turf. And Red Dragons? Only in the middle of volcanoes.
I am not sure which version or rotrl you played, but the white dragon was in an ice area and the red was well supported throughout...
YMMV if your GM nerfed it.
What? The red dragon attacked a town. Totally not in the middle of a volcano. CR-10.
The White Dragon was in a cold area, but not in an ice cave. Which would have in fact reduced IT'S CR because it would have just been beat to death. Instead it was summoned out of the halls and flew around the whole damn time reducing the number of party members that could fight it to ohhhh.. two (one of which barely escaped being eaten the first round). Luckily he managed to force it to land and it was killed in one round.
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In a deep forest, a green dragon is much, much more effective.
A silver dragon on clouds is much much more effective.
Having a Fire Elemental fight the group in a pit of magma is making it much much more effective.
And it isn't a coincidence that the environment listed for them is also the place they are effective.
Hence, why I am coming to the opinion that this is a troll thread, or a venting thread.
Please do not be disappointed because I did not answer to your posts specifically. Similar points have been made in this thread before and I am tired of repeating myself.
I am begining to get the impression that this thread and Hyla are a bit of a troll.
Several posters have suggested things that do not require more scrolls, potions or other gear, suggested tactics that could have made the fight more challenging.
And were CLEARLY 100% unrelated to the plot of Hyla's campaign and the story event. The Green Dragon didn't rush out of a forest to engage in good olde fashioned fisticuffs with the Paladin. It engaged them as part of a story element with two other creatures that I'm surprised didn't be the party to death.
Those posts and comments are being ignored.
Because they are in turn ignoring the entire scenario.
Why didn't they arrive invisible? This would of allowed them to cast other spells, like wind wall.
So the Dragon, in it's infinite intelligence casts Wind Wall - then proceeds to sit in the middle of the Wind Wall cube so the Paladin can't shoot it with arrows, but never getting a chance to fly around and attack people because Wind Wall is a static wall and doesn't move.
Wind Wall is honestly the stupidest suggestion made in this thread.|
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I think all this thread does is reinforce some very clear facts:
Archer Paladins are filthy disgusting abominations and should be shamed into death by their teammates for prancing aorund with a bow when they could be getting in the thick of things being all dashing and heroic.
Face it people, mechanically Paladin Archer may be 'where it's at' but you should be too ashamed of yourselves to ever be seen in public. :)
I am begining to get the impression that this thread and Hyla are a bit of a troll.
Several posters have suggested things that do not require more scrolls, potions or other gear, suggested tactics that could have made the fight more challenging.
Those posts and comments are being ignored. Those posts are/were in response to Hyla's request for examples of what could have been done differently, to make the fight more challenging, to counter her claim that Smite and Bows are broken.
The fight scene seems to change a bit, depending on the comment made by others. The paladin, in round one was able to get 5 shots off, be buffed by himself and another PC.
So, I am wondering how the paladin, in a surprise attack, was able to equipe his bow, buff himself and get 5 shots off.
Any reasonable suggestions are ignored or disregarded.
Ex: Why didn't they arrive invisible? This would of allowed them to cast other spells, like wind wall.
When wind wall was mentioned, it was brushed off, saying that it was dispelled the next round. Well, that is a round that the caster isn't buffing, controlling or damaging the dragon party.Hence, why I am coming to the opinion that this is a troll thread, or a venting thread.
1. They have to teleport in a 10ft vicinity of the group. If they don't realize this one of them is gonna cast -> Loud speaking -> You know approximatly where he is.
Glitterdust or a Dust of Appearance will solve that problem.2. The paladin doesn't have to buff himself. The only thing he got was a haste. The Cleric could easily have dispelled the wind wall because he did nothing for the Paladin.
3. Wind Wall for a Dragon? What is it supposed to do behind it? Hope that the PCs don't move around it while he deals 10d6 damage every 1d4 rounds!?
4. Why should he have to equip his Bow? You every sheat your weapons while playing D&D? And with a bow you even have one hand free while having it combat ready!
It engaged them as part of a story element with two other creatures that I'm surprised didn't be the party to death.
Actually.... Xanesha managed to hit the cleric with all five attacks (she was hasted), with a whopping TWO crits among them. That killed him good.
I am begining to get the impression that this thread and Hyla are a bit of a troll.
Several posters have suggested things that do not require more scrolls, potions or other gear, suggested tactics that could have made the fight more challenging.
And were CLEARLY 100% unrelated to the plot of Hyla's campaign and the story event. The Green Dragon didn't rush out of a forest to engage in good olde fashioned fisticuffs with the Paladin. It engaged them as part of a story element with two other creatures that I'm surprised didn't be the party to death.
Those posts and comments are being ignored.Because they are in turn ignoring the entire scenario.
Posts where it was asked why they didn't start off invisible?
Questions about why the fight happened during the day, when all the of the listed dragon's party had darkvision?Questions about how the PCs were able to do so much in a round?
All those are ignored or not responded to.
Suggestions that the fight happend at night - no response to
Suggestions that the dragon's party be used a bit more effectively, using spells listed in the Beastiary (stock) or based on what Hyla has suggested - no response to
Suggestions that the fight happen in the forest, on water, that other items be given to the bad guys - those are responded to.
I think all this thread does is reinforce some very clear facts:
Archer Paladins are filthy disgusting abominations and should be shamed into death by their teammates for prancing aorund with a bow when they could be getting in the thick of things being all dashing and heroic.
Face it people, mechanically Paladin Archer may be 'where it's at' but you should be too ashamed of yourselves to ever be seen in public. :)
Replace the Paladin with Inquisitor. Perfect! Even works well with Bows!
Holy cow!
We instantly god rid of an old BD&D brick in the gameplay for something cool and playable.
Actually.... Xanesha managed to hit the cleric with all five attacks (she was hasted), with a whopping TWO crits among them. That killed him good.It engaged them as part of a story element with two other creatures that I'm surprised didn't be the party to death.
I'm surprised a Greater Invisibility Giant didn't proceed to hammer everyone into the ground like nails.
I'm surprised a Greater Invisibility Giant didn't proceed to hammer everyone into the ground like nails.Actually.... Xanesha managed to hit the cleric with all five attacks (she was hasted), with a whopping TWO crits among them. That killed him good.It engaged them as part of a story element with two other creatures that I'm surprised didn't be the party to death.
I assume he got revealed by the wizard (or some other party member having a dust of appereance) and the Paladin then (luckily the giant was evil) then made cheese out of him.
1. So what spells should the necromancer also have cast on him? Invisibility would be the only one he could have and which would have been good. But he owuld have attacked anyway after the teleport so why bother?
What necromancer? I guess you mean the Lamia. I was assuming the invis was what got them the surprise round. It if was just the teleportation then it would not have been needed.
2. The dragon has freaking 14 Int. Everyone and his dog has this in D&D. This doesn't make you a friggin Einstein. Stop reminding us of this "Dragons are so smart" 2nd edition compulsive nerdness :P
That was not in my last post. Actually I don't think it was in any of my post. Just because myself and other posters agree on things, that does not mean we agree on everything. I prefer for you to respond to what you quote me as saying. With that said a 14 is fairly intelligent. Even an int of 10 would let someone know to teleport into melee if possible. If the PC's were trying to tackle some archers they would not have attacked from a distance. They would land right on top of them.
3. The scry gives you vision of 10ft around the party. How should they know if its favourable terrain or not? They can't say anything besides what they see.
Good point. I assumed they would have found out where they were going before going there. If they did not even do that much you are not helping the OP's case.
4. The CR and unfavourable terrain.
You could argue that CR should have been lowered by 1 because of this. But lets get back to the Scrying thingy. So they get scried upon by the caster, he knows the surroundings and uses a teleport scroll. Its a 9th CL scroll and thus he can bring about one giant with him.
How does the Huge Dragon come into this? Nobody could teleport him and he doesn't have any NPC Gear to spend on a teleport scroll... Ok you give him additional equipment which increases his CR because he is suddenly more potent (hey he can teleport onto your head).
I think a rule was missed with the teleport. On the other hand none of the people who teleported there could cast it so they had to try a caster level check, meaning the scroll came from another caster. It is possible the creator of the scroll was above level 9.
Buuuuuuut... this brings us to another problem. The Necromancer scryed and knew your surroundings. But how did the dragon? The Scrying Spell says "you can observe a creature" and you is the caster. Shield for example also uses the "you".
So he has never seen it but wants to teleport there... So if we are REALLY nice to him it counts as "viewed once" because the Necromancer drew it or so (not that it would count... you will need Greater Teleport for that). Leading the dragon to a whooping 24% offtarget chance. Which will likely make you jsut "cheat" that roll.
The Lamia Patriarch has actual caster levels, 6 to be exact. Why are you attributing the OP's things to me. Was I supposed to rearrange the entire encounter? I thought I was just slightly modifying what I was given. That is why when the OP complained about sunder I changed my tactics earlier
So in the end you gave him equipment he cant have, did let him do something thats impossible with it (teleporting to something you have never seen) and even most likely cheating a dice. The dragon also has shield on its spell list. The OP posted a link to it recently.
And you guys are crying about him having CR reduced because of UNFAVOURABLE CONDITIONS!? And oyu would even have gone further and given him more scrolls and buffs and probably even more magical items just to make him "smart as a dragon" (14 int, lol).
I did not use equipment. Others did. Like I said don't lump me in with others. 14 is intelligent. It is not genius level, but it is smarter than the average person. I am sure if the intelligence was a 6 you would say it was too dumb to do anything smart. If having a 14 has no merit then neither should a 6.
I see a lot of "lol'ing",but not a lot of reading. :)
Sometimes I really ask myself if we even play after the same rules. This Dragon was at least +1 CR for all the things the DM enabled him to do. And fighting a flying monster on a plain is not favorable terrain for the PCs. All APs prove that.
Favourable terrain would be most likely the PCs in some fortifications or even hardly reachable for the dragon. This dragon teleport right onto them with buffs enabled and everything... stop kidding me.
What did the GM enable him to do that was not negated by letting the PC's be ready for him? Actually you can take two monsters of the same CR from different AP's and have a wildly different fight so all the AP's prove is that CR in them is author dependent.
I'm surprised a Greater Invisibility Giant didn't proceed to hammer everyone into the ground like nails.
The cleric (before he died) cast invisibility purge.
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I can imagine no possible scenario where this dragon (alone) could have presented any challenge whatsoever against the party.
That's the issue - the attack had no imagination. sorry but it didn't.
A party of PC's that powerful is going to have a reputation; use some of the hoard to pay thieves to steal a bow... what til there is some cover to attack from, play to you teams strengths not their weaknesses etc..
Seriously.. it isn't about the Paladin or the smite. (as everyone else is commenting).
Don't rush yourself with the next encounter, if it's a big bad then let the suspense build and think through the combat, location, time of day etc..
All this "This fight would've been done the right way had you stolen or sundered his bow beforehand!" is beyond absurd.
100% of Pathfinder adventures are written stupidly. I mean, in Rise of the Runelords alone in like 1 book we've fought two dragons outside their element. I mean, there shouldn't be any White Dragons outside the frozen tundra where they are on their own turf. And Red Dragons? Only in the middle of volcanoes.
I am not sure which version or rotrl you played, but the white dragon was in an ice area and the red was well supported throughout...
YMMV if your GM nerfed it.
What? The red dragon attacked a town. Totally not in the middle of a volcano. CR-10.
The White Dragon was in a cold area, but not in an ice cave. Which would have in fact reduced IT'S CR because it would have just been beat to death. Instead it was summoned out of the halls and flew around the whole damn time reducing the number of party members that could fight it to ohhhh.. two (one of which barely escaped being eaten the first round). Luckily he managed to force it to land and it was killed in one round.
Um...spoiler tag maybe?
The red dragon had literally an army of stone giants and was in support capacit.
The white dragon was described as using his stealth in ice bonus to hide, and the players climbed a trapped ice stairway to get to his lair after the inital attack.
What the hell are you talking about?
Posts where it was asked why they didn't start off invisible?
Questions about why the fight happened during the day, when all the of the listed dragon's party had darkvision?
Story element. Who's to say the PCs didn't have at least low light vision, all of them? Gnomes are low-light. One person tosses an everburning torch out into the middle of the assault and bam, everyone can see.
Questions about how the PCs were able to do so much in a round?
Haste - one character's action for one round.
Full attack with a bow w/ smite - one character's action for one round.Suggestions that the dragon's party be used a bit more effectively,
A Giant was Greater Invisibilitied and a Dragon was Hasted. What do you want?
Suggestions that the fight happen in the forest, on water, that other items be given to the bad guys - those are responded to.
You know NOTHING about the campaign. How do you know the campaign would go anywhere NEAR water or a forest? And how, exactly, would that help the dragon's party members
Posts where it was asked why they didn't start off invisible?
Questions about why the fight happened during the day, when all the of the listed dragon's party had darkvision?
Questions about how the PCs were able to do so much in a round?
All those are ignored or not responded to.Suggestions that the fight happend at night - no response to
Suggestions that the dragon's party be used a bit more effectively, using spells listed in the Beastiary (stock) or based on what Hyla has suggested - no response toSuggestions that the fight happen in the forest, on water, that other items be given to the bad guys - those are responded to.
1. They had one lvl 7 spellcaster and he already did buff a lot. And starting off invisible wouldn't have gained a lot for the dragon because he could have done nothing while staying invisible.
2. They were in 10ft of the party. Like Darkness is going to do a lot there... and the paladin has low light vision and its surface... So its day all the time!
3. So much? The Wizard did cast one spell and the paladin full attacked. Is that much to you?
4. They were answered already... you just don't bother to read like 50% of the other guys in this thread. So don't come around playing the smart guy with your suggestions we had already like 5 pages ago.
What necromancer?
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Good point. I assumed they would have found out where they were going before going there. If they did not even do that much you are not helping the OP's case.
There was a level 7 stone giant necromancer present. This was the guy who cast wind wall.
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The enemy party KNEW the location, becuse it was the site where they slaughtered a shoanti village a couple of weeks before. The party chose this place for the standoff for this reason.
Please do not be disappointed because I did not answer to your posts specifically. Similar points have been made in this thread before and I am tired of repeating myself.Hence, why I am coming to the opinion that this is a troll thread, or a venting thread.
I have read every post in this thread.
I do not recall seeing anywhere where you stated why they hadn't come in invisible - you did state that minutes per level spells were cast before teleportation - invisibility is a minutes per level spell - so why was it not cast before hand?
I do not recall any post that explained why the fight happened during the day and not at night, to take advantage of the dragon's party's darkvision.
I do not recall seeing anything explaining why the dragon couldn't have done fly-by attacks in the dark, to use it's breath attack. The paladin would have been able to get a single arrow off, if readied.
I do recall you stating that the paladin had a buff that he had cast on himself up, along with haste, when in the first round he killed the dragon.
I don't know how he was able to equip his bow, cast a buff and get off 5 arrows. Scrying is a minutes per level spell, so I am finding a bit hard to understand how the PCs knew exacty when the dragon's party was going to attack.
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Red Dragon not in volcano. Ultra favourable terrain for PCs. -10CR.
This Green Dragon also had insane support. So why are you arguing with favourable terrain here but in the case of the Red Dragon its ok?
I do not recall seeing anywhere where you stated why they hadn't come in invisible - you did state that minutes per level spells were cast before teleportation - invisibility is a minutes per level spell - so why was it not cast before hand?
You seem challenged with reading my posts.
I do not recall any post that explained why the fight happened during the day and not at night, to take advantage of the dragon's party's darkvision.
Read my post
I do not recall seeing anything explaining why the dragon couldn't have done fly-by attacks in the dark, to use it's breath attack. The paladin would have been able to get a single arrow off, if readied.
Read my post. What about low light vision is so unclear for you!?
I do recall you stating that the paladin had a buff that he had cast on himself up, along with haste, when in the first round he killed the dragon.
You mean... smite evil?
I don't know how he was able to equip his bow, cast a buff and get off 5 arrows. Scrying is a minutes per level spell, so I am finding a bit hard to understand how the PCs knew exacty when the dragon's party was going to attack.
Read my post.
Um...spoiler tag maybe?
Vader is Luke's Dad.
Aren't they releasing the 4th or 5th anniversary edition next year? Really.Spoiler:The red dragon had literally an army of stone giants and was in support capacit.
Wasn't in the middle of a volcano. Not taking advantage of his capabilities. CR -10.
Spoiler:The white dragon was described as using his stealth in ice bonus to hide, and the players climbed a trapped ice stairway to get to his lair after the inital attack.
You seem challenged with reading my posts.Not really.
If you take a look at the timings of the posts, you may realize that I was in the process of typing another post while you were responding to my first post.
PS:When you grapple someone they are moved into an adjacent square square so the caster won't be able to teleport him away because he won't be able to reach him. The dragon is huge and will have a 15 foot reach with his bite.
When you grapple you are grappled, no AoO for the dragon, so what block the caster from doing a few steps and casting free action/dimension door or other similar spells to free the paladin?
ats why grappling is useless against him with backup if he is the most important character. The lvl 9 mage can easily teleport him out of the grapple. The cleric can easily cast freedom of movement on the paladin (which cleric doesn't have that spell remembered!?).
Only tripping can save the dragon. And thats because the rules are utterly stupid here and oyu need a feat to fire while prone. But if thats the only thing a clearly superior creature can do to the Paladin he will take the Prone Shooter feat next and thus you can't do it anymore
This is for you Alienfreak since you dont like to pay attention. I said before that the dragon is huge. His bite has 15 feet of reach. Grappling pulls you into an adjacent square meaning the paladin is 10 feet up in the air. Unless that caster has long arms he can't reach him.
White Dragon
I am still not sure whether they play the same game ;)
Sigh. Ok, to keep you happy.
I do not recall seeing anywhere where you stated why they hadn't come in invisible - you did state that minutes per level spells were cast before teleportation - invisibility is a minutes per level spell - so why was it not cast before hand?
It was for dramatic reasons: The bad guys teleported in (Dragon, Lamia, two Stone Giants)* and *poof* lamia and one stone giant went invisible, dragon took flight. That dropped some jaws and got me nice "oh s!$#" looks from the players, who expected only the dragon and maybe one giant.
I do not recall any post that explained why the fight happened during the day and not at night, to take advantage of the dragon's party's darkvision.
Darkvision is only 60/120 ft. and I wanted this to be an open field battle.
I do not recall seeing anything explaining why the dragon couldn't have done fly-by attacks in the dark, to use it's breath attack. The paladin would have been able to get a single arrow off, if readied.
See bove.
I do recall you stating that the paladin had a buff that he had cast on himself up, along with haste, when in the first round he killed the dragon.
Can you give me a link to that statement? I can not remember that I wrote sth. like that and I think haste was the only buff the Paladin had (courtesy of our Ini +10 wizard).
I don't know how he was able to equip his bow, cast a buff and get off 5 arrows. Scrying is a minutes per level spell, so I am finding a bit hard to understand how the PCs knew exacty when the dragon's party was going to attack.
Its no big deal to have your bow in your hands if your are just sitting on a boulder somewhere, wating.
The players did NOT know when the baddies where going to attack. THe scrying happened sporadically. The players were NOT buffed at the point of the attack. I stated that a LOT of times.
*I actually made an error there, assuming that two scrolls of teleport would suffice - I thought the dragon was large, not huge.
I am begining to get the impression that this thread and Hyla are a bit of a troll.
Several posters have suggested things that do not require more scrolls, potions or other gear, suggested tactics that could have made the fight more challenging.
Those posts and comments are being ignored. Those posts are/were in response to Hyla's request for examples of what could have been done differently, to make the fight more challenging, to counter her claim that Smite and Bows are broken.
The fight scene seems to change a bit, depending on the comment made by others. The paladin, in round one was able to get 5 shots off, be buffed by himself and another PC.
So, I am wondering how the paladin, in a surprise attack, was able to equipe his bow, buff himself and get 5 shots off.
Any reasonable suggestions are ignored or disregarded.
Ex: Why didn't they arrive invisible? This would of allowed them to cast other spells, like wind wall.
When wind wall was mentioned, it was brushed off, saying that it was dispelled the next round. Well, that is a round that the caster isn't buffing, controlling or damaging the dragon party.Hence, why I am coming to the opinion that this is a troll thread, or a venting thread.
Mistwalker since certain other posters like to skip post I will bold parts of your post.
I would like all of you who see the bolded section to respond with a +1, -1, or whatever works for you.
This is for you Alienfreak since you dont like to pay attention. I said before that the dragon is huge. His bite has 15 feet of reach. Grappling pulls you into an adjacent square meaning the paladin is 10 feet up in the air. Unless that caster has long arms he can't reach him.
What!?
Now I am sure we are playing 2 different games. You are using some story based open system.
If you successfully grapple a creature that is not adjacent to you, move that creature to an adjacent open space (if no space is available, your grapple fails).
So the Paladin is the O while the Dragon is the Z. X is a free space
OXXZ. Now the Dragon Grapples the Paladin. XXOZ.
How is he up in the air?
1. They had one lvl 7 spellcaster and he already did buff a lot. And starting off invisible wouldn't have gained a lot for the dragon because he could have done nothing while staying invisible.
2. They were in 10ft of the party. Like Darkness is going to do a lot there... and the paladin has low light vision and its surface... So its day all the time!
3. So much? The Wizard did cast one spell and the paladin full attacked. Is that much to you?
4. They were answered already... you just don't bother to read like 50% of the other guys in this thread. So don't come around playing the smart guy with your suggestions we had already like 5 pages ago.
1. Starting off invisible would have allowed a full round attack against PC targets.
2. Why did they start off in 10' of the party? They certainly didn't take advantage of their spells or resources. Most giants like to bombard their targets with boulders before they close with them. WHen the 20' movement per round paladin has to move enought to get in sight range of the giant, it will take a few more rounds (and that doesn't include if the giant keeps moving around - as he can see perfectly, while the gnome may have a few problems). Why does it being the surface mean that it is day all the time? why didn't they come in during an overcast night?
3. From what Hyla has stated, the paladin equipped his bow, cast a buff and managed to get off a hasted full round bow attack.
4. Please point out where the attacking at night and better use of spells (specifically invisibility) where pointed out up thread?
It's hard to say whether Greater Invisibility a Stone Giant or Dragon would be better. Stone Giants hurt.
Probably referring to Snatch, which Green Dragons don't have by default.
3. From what Hyla has stated, the paladin equipped his bow, cast a buff and managed to get off a hasted full round bow attack.
Now that I have taken the time to reply to you in detail, please do read my post.
Cartigan you keep harping on "campaign" issues. This thread is not about the campaign. The thread is to prove that smite was not the issue, and that the battle could have been more difficult if played differently.
So looking at this as a homebrew instead what would you have done to make the fight more difficult?
1. Starting off invisible would have allowed a full round attack against PC targets.
This would have helped... how against the Paladin?
2. Why did they start off in 10' of the party? They certainly didn't take advantage of their spells or resources. Most giants like to bombard their targets with boulders before they close with them. WHen the 20' movement per round paladin has to move enought to get in sight range of the giant, it will take a few more rounds (and that doesn't include if the giant keeps moving around - as he can see perfectly, while the gnome may have a few problems). Why does it being the surface mean that it is day all the time? why didn't they come in during an overcast night?
Didn't they scry on them?
If they didn't teleport to where they were exactly they are I guess they would have been quite in a hurry to reach them before the Buffs wear off... not everyone here is a dragon with insane movement speed
3. From what Hyla has stated, the paladin equipped his bow, cast a buff and managed to get off a hasted full round bow attack.
He had his bow in hand, did get a haste and then smited the enemy (swift action) plus full attacked (full round action)
4. Please point out where the attacking at night and better use of spells (specifically invisibility) where pointed out up thread?
The night would have gained them nothing. A Gnome sees perfectly in the night. And you don't know what the rest of the party is made of. If that even matters because the Paladin can perfectly see him.
Still any troubles with Low Light Vision in the need of explaining?
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Now I note you do don’t have precise shot, so you are going to take a penalty whenever you fire into combat.
f your target (or the part of your target you're aiming at, if it's a big target) is at least 10 feet away from the nearest friendly character, you can avoid the –4 penalty, even if the creature you're aiming at is engaged in melee with a friendly character.
Young adult green dragon = Huge
Huge = 15 ft space
No -4, you target a point more than 10 ft away from the nearest friendly if there is any in melee with the dragon.
And you don't know what the rest of the party is made of.
FYI:
Dwarfen Fighter
Elven Wizard
Human Cleric (Darkness domain, so Eyes of Darkness (Su))
Human Monk
It was for dramatic reasons: The bad guys teleported in (Dragon, Lamia, two Stone Giants)* and *poof* lamia and one stone giant went invisible, dragon took flight. That dropped some jaws and got me nice "oh s@++" looks from the players, who expected only the dragon and maybe one giant.
Darkvision is only 60/120 ft. and I wanted this to be an open field battle.
It would seem to me that your dramatic reasons may be part of what made this encounter so easy for your PCs. It caused the dragon's party to use less than effective tactics.
A fight at night, where big bad enemies keep popping into sight, leaving the players wondering about what else may be out there, may have been equaly dramatic and more effective.
This is why a few of us have been trying to provide more effective tactics, or asking questions to understand why the fight happened the way it did.
YOu have stated that you don't like sundering PCs magic items. I can understand that (and mostly agree), but you haven't addressed suggestions that you may want to consider sundering the quiver. With arrows in a messy pile at his feet, the paladin would not have been able to get off more than a single arrow a round.
The players did NOT know when the baddies where going to attack. THe scrying happened sporadically. The players were NOT buffed at the point of the attack. I stated that a LOT of times.
I have noticed that you have had to say that a lot. :)
Edited to clean up a quote error.
What necromancer?
...
Good point. I assumed they would have found out where they were going before going there. If they did not even do that much you are not helping the OP's case.
There was a level 7 stone giant necromancer present. This was the guy who cast wind wall.
...
The enemy party KNEW the location, becuse it was the site where they slaughtered a shoanti village a couple of weeks before. The party chose this place for the standoff for this reason.
I missed the necromancer part. Thanks.
Your post saying the bad guys knew the location just threw a wrench in AlienFreak's silly idea though.
I missed the necromancer part. Thanks.
Your post saying the bad guys knew the location just threw a wrench in AlienFreak's silly idea though.
He seems to have run out of counters and is resorting to snide comments. I guess I can ignore him until he says something intelligent. I hope his int is over 14 though. You need at least that much to use common sense.
Knew what location? If the location was strategically poor for the bad guys (and it was), why would they then Teleport into an ambush?
It was the first time in weeks the players left their "mages private sanctum". The baddie (Mokmurian) was foaming mad at them because the players teleported into his stronghold and killed two lamia clerics (and nearly Xanesha, too).
So he reacted.
As to the rest of the remark:
I repeat, I did NOT *nerf* anything. I just did not gave the baddies super-optimal conditions. The way I see it they even had an slight advantage, because they arrived fully buffed.
The rest of the combat WAS fun and challenging, just the dragon dropping in round 1 was a big turn-off.
EDIT:
Also most of the pary hid in a tiny hut 30 ft. away. Only two PCs (including the one the bad guy scryed) were visible. THe bad guys assumed there were only two PCS present.
He was. He had the one useful buff he could cast by himself and even another buff cast by an ally.
This is why I was under the impression that he had buffed himself as well as getting the haste buff by the wizard.
1. Paladin being played without Smite Errata
Not true. We played WITH errata.
Without the errata the mean damage would have gone up from ~135 to ~160, so that would have made little difference anyway.
Also I am amazed at the amount of aggression I am drawing here: lazy DM, stupidly played etc. etc.
Its simply not the case that CR assume super-optimal conditions for the bad guys.
In my described case the conditions were even slightly disadvantegeous for the PCs since they were not buffed, but the bad guys were at the start of the combat.
If I take a look at my AP books or the many PF modules I own - I simply fail to see the elaborate tactics, preparation and environmental advantages you guys claim are absolutely necessary in order for the CR be valid.
So are this all stupid modules, written by lazy authors or what?
Or maybe your elaborations are misguided attempts at disguising the fact that yes, a CR 11 dragon ist just not a real challenge for a lvl 9 party including an archer paladin.
Why is it so hard to just admit that? It does not make PF a bad game or anything. Its just that my expectations were wrong, and next time I will send a CR 13 or 14 dragon.
This
I missed the necromancer part. Thanks.Your post saying the bad guys knew the location just threw a wrench in AlienFreak's silly idea though.
He seems to have run out of counters and is resorting to snide comments. I guess I can ignore him until he says something intelligent. I hope his int is over 14 though. You need at least that much to use common sense.
Awww... you are now really making me Awww...
If you were somewhere around here I would now really give you a hug :)So now I need common sense for reading D&D rules as RAW? There is no facing nothing. You get moved to an adjected square of the creature -> you get pulled to it.
Where exactly is your "it gets pulled to the source of the attack and if the enemy is higher than 5ft the grappled character ends up in the air" RAW?
And my silly idea is still upping the CR of the dragon to 12. Because he used a scroll he can't have.
Extra equipment -> +1 CR.