Smite Evil is great. Maybe too great...


Pathfinder First Edition General Discussion

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Liberty's Edge

Cartigan wrote:
ciretose wrote:
Cartigan wrote:


Then you are not disproving Smite was overpowered here and therefore not overpowered in general.

They should have attacked in a forest! is irrelevant and ignorant when discussing the effect of attacking on the plains.

In the forest the dragon would have gotten cover, if not full concealment against a ranged attacker in an area it has a huge movement and stealth advantage.

If you don't see how this is relevant...

If you can't comprehend how discussing the ability of a green dragon to move in a forest is 100% irrelevant for a campaign scenario (a campaign which may NEVER go NEAR trees) where a dragon is required to attack the adventurers not in a forest, then I don't understand how you can contribute to the thread.

Because there was no Green Dragon in the scenario. The GM picked a Green Dragon for some reason that makes no logical sense, since it wasn't a forest.

Which is the point. A Green Dragon out of the forest isn't nearly as effective as a Green Dragon in a forest. Which is why Green Dragons live in forests, and why you would encounter them there.


ciretose wrote:

Open Steppe is a ranged combat player's wet dream. That is hardly neutral, and considering the CR is set up assuming you find the Dragon in his environment and the dragon is ambushing,

Says you.

Even then, he would have posed no threat to the paladin's party.


ciretose wrote:
Hyla wrote:

ciretose:

As stated before

- I do not follow the course given in the AP closely but give the players lots of leeway with own plans. This is why the PCs were 1 week north of Kaer Maga and nowhere near the valley you have in mind. This is also why I chose to take the two smaller dragons in Jorgenfist and alter them into a young adult green.

- Also: the terrain was not benefical for anyone, it was oppen steppe. More neutral ground will be hard to find.

- Stop calling teleporting a buffed EL 13 kill team to deal with two lvl 9 PCs stupid. Its not and it frankly sounds as if you trie to insult MY intelligence underhandly. You know nothing about how the session went, partly because you did not bother the thread.

Open Steppe is a ranged combat player's wet dream. That is hardly neutral, and considering the CR is set up assuming you find the Dragon in his environment and the dragon is ambushing, you shouldn't be going for neutral.

There is no reason to attack a group when it is prepared to be attacked in an environment not to the advantage of the attacker.

None.

A Young Adult Green Dragon has yet to gain any combat abilities that makes it better in a forest than outside it so its CR is unaffected. Ok, the mad wizard waits until the party enters a forest to send his attack squad. And they never go near a forest. He dies waiting.

And Stone Giants are out of their element in the woods. You've reduced the CR!


Hyla wrote:
wraithstrike wrote:
Everything your monster has in its arsenal is an option that is meant to be used.
Of course. Except all those thing weren't in the dragons arsenal.

I was only referring to things it would have. Now if its(any monster) allies can cast spells then it is only reasonable that they use teamwork to help each other out.


ciretose wrote:
Cartigan wrote:
ciretose wrote:
Cartigan wrote:


Then you are not disproving Smite was overpowered here and therefore not overpowered in general.

They should have attacked in a forest! is irrelevant and ignorant when discussing the effect of attacking on the plains.

In the forest the dragon would have gotten cover, if not full concealment against a ranged attacker in an area it has a huge movement and stealth advantage.

If you don't see how this is relevant...

If you can't comprehend how discussing the ability of a green dragon to move in a forest is 100% irrelevant for a campaign scenario (a campaign which may NEVER go NEAR trees) where a dragon is required to attack the adventurers not in a forest, then I don't understand how you can contribute to the thread.

Because there was no Green Dragon in the scenario. The GM picked a Green Dragon for some reason that makes no logical sense, since it wasn't a forest.

Which is the point. A Green Dragon out of the forest isn't nearly as effective as a Green Dragon in a forest. Which is why Green Dragons live in forests, and why you would encounter them there.

A Red Dragon appears in a town. Nowhere near a volcano. CR -10.

Liberty's Edge

Cartigan wrote:
ciretose wrote:
** spoiler omitted **

It wasn't very effective at attacking us in it's lair in fight parts two and three after being slain in part one. Did your party just sit around getting it's ass handed to it by a White Dragon while climbing a mountain?

Quote:
And do you mean the Red Dragon with 13 Stone Giants and 5 Dire Bears?

You mean the Young Adult Green Dragon with two Stone Giants (at least one being a caster) and a Lamia Matriarch?

You'd be surprised how little damage Stone Giants do disarmed, caught up in Black Tentacles, and otherwise harried by the party.

1. Which occurred in an icey area where it specifically got a really good chance to get the drop on the party...read the encounter rather than going on how your DM nerfed it...

2. In the middle of an open field run completely out of character and context of the AP, for no logical reason coming out of a fortification with less that 5% of the total available forces of the BBEG...Genius...

3. Read the text for Black Tenticles, then look at the CMD for Stone Giants. I know, I know, reading the spells is cheating...

Back to work now...


Hyla wrote:
ciretose wrote:

Open Steppe is a ranged combat player's wet dream. That is hardly neutral, and considering the CR is set up assuming you find the Dragon in his environment and the dragon is ambushing,

Says you.

Oh, come on.

Liberty's Edge

Hyla wrote:
ciretose wrote:

Open Steppe is a ranged combat player's wet dream. That is hardly neutral, and considering the CR is set up assuming you find the Dragon in his environment and the dragon is ambushing,

Says you.

Even then, he would have posed no threat to the paladin's party.

Read the concealment and cover rules.

Realize they apply in a dense forest.

Realize the Dragon can ignore the movement problems in that forest.

Interesting, huh?

Liberty's Edge

Cartigan wrote:


A Red Dragon appears in a town. Nowhere near a volcano. CR -10.

You repeating a ridiculous straw man means you got nothing, which means I win the internet.

Awesome! Go me!

Now seriously back to work.


ciretose wrote:


1. Which occurred in an icey area where it specifically got a really good chance to get the drop on the party...read the encounter rather than going on how your DM nerfed it...

How does getting the drop on the party relate to being forcibly grounded and killed?

Quote:
2. In the middle of an open field run completely out of character and context of the AP, for no logical reason coming out of a fortification with less that 5% of the total available forces of the BBEG...Genius...

Of course your definition of "in character" is "Dragons are geniuses and never controlled by third parties who make them leave their element!"

Quote:
3. Read the text for Black Tenticles, then look at the CMD for Stone Giants. I know, I know, reading the spells is cheating...

I didn't say it worked great, but it slowed them down. Make the check or fail it, they are forced to move half speed.

Liberty's Edge

Cartigan wrote:


None.

A Young Adult Green Dragon has yet to gain any combat abilities that makes it better in a forest than outside it so its CR is unaffected.

Last one, as I really need to get back to work, but this was too easy.

"Woodland Stride (Ex) A very young or older green dragon can move through any sort of foliage at full speed without taking damage or suffering impairment. Areas of foliage that have been magically manipulated affect it normally."

I can't see how that may be useful...


ciretose wrote:
Hyla wrote:
ciretose wrote:

Open Steppe is a ranged combat player's wet dream. That is hardly neutral, and considering the CR is set up assuming you find the Dragon in his environment and the dragon is ambushing,

Says you.

Even then, he would have posed no threat to the paladin's party.

Read the concealment and cover rules.

Realize they apply in a dense forest.

Realize the Dragon can ignore the movement problems in that forest.

Interesting, huh?

I'm not sure what having Woodland Stride has to do with also being able to void cover and concealment in the same forested area. Do the Druids and Rangers in the party also get to negate cover and concealment?

ciretose wrote:


"Woodland Stride (Ex) A very young or older green dragon can move through any sort of foliage at full speed without taking damage or suffering impairment. Areas of foliage that have been magically manipulated affect it normally."

I can't see how that may be useful...

It's irrelevant in combat.


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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Being able to move without impediment through thick foliage which provides cover and concealment against attacks, allowing pretty much the ultimate in guerilla tactics is irrelevant in combat now?


Of course its relevant in combat. But I still refuse the notion that a dragon, a frickin dragon, has to rely on stuff like this in order to be any threat at all.

Also: the official Paizo material is shock-full of straigthforward combats, without environment or tactics that are hugely advantegeous for the monsters. Yes, with dragons too.

So the idea that "being on its home turf, in an ambush & fully buffed" is a prerequisite for the listed CR to apply is obviously NOT valid. This argument was now made several times here and was repeatedly ignored.

OF COURSE all your tactics and buff suggestions would have made the encounter harder. Its just that

a) they did not make sense in the scope of the campaign

b) they really should not be a prerequsite for running the game successfully.

Smite + archery tree is OFF. You do NOT kill a challenging (i. e. CR significantly higher than you level)demon or dragon reliably in one round.

Of course you can fight this by using elaborate tactics (or harder monsters). But thats not how its presented in the rules.

Using elabore tactics and envoronment to the monsters favour should INCREASE the CR, not be necessary for the base CR to be valid.


Hyla wrote:

Of course its relevant in combat. But I still refuse the notion that a dragon, a frickin dragon, has to rely on stuff like this in order to be any threat at all.

Also: the official Paizo material is shock-full of straigthforward combats, without environment or tactics that are hugely advantegeous for the monsters. Yes, with dragons too.

So the idea that "being on its home turf, in an ambush & fully buffed" is a prerequisite for the listed CR to apply is obviously NOT valid. This argument was now made several times here and was repeatedly ignored.

OF COURSE all your tactics and buff suggestions would have made the encounter harder. Its just that

a) they did not make sense in the scope of the campaign

b) they really should not be a prerequsite for running the game successfully.

Smite + archery tree is OFF. You do NOT kill a challenging (i. e. CR significantly higher than you level)demon or dragon reliably in one round.

Of course you can fight this by using elaborate tactics (or harder monsters). But thats not how its presented in the rules.

Using elabore tactics and envoronment to the monsters favour should INCREASE the CR, not be necessary for the base CR to be valid.

You must tailor encounters to your specific groups. The AP's are not one size fits all.

You might be able to charge full steam ahead against group A, while group B will wipe the floor with the same encounter.

Quote:
"being on its home turf, in an ambush & fully buffed" is a prerequisite for the listed CR to apply is obviously NOT valid.

I agree, but fighting to the PC's advantage is a prerequisite for handing them an easy fight which can negate CR.

Fighters, rangers and barbarians can also kill monster higher than them on their own depending on how they are played. This is not a smite issue.

The tactics associated with a monster are just suggestions, and the CR alone does not make a challenge, once again.

Look at the your group + look at the monster=keys to success.

You can't run an encounter without some sort of strategy against my group as an example.

Liberty's Edge

Hyla wrote:

Of course its relevant in combat. But I still refuse the notion that a dragon, a frickin dragon, has to rely on stuff like this in order to be any threat at all.

Also: the official Paizo material is shock-full of straigthforward combats, without environment or tactics that are hugely advantegeous for the monsters. Yes, with dragons too.

So the idea that "being on its home turf, in an ambush & fully buffed" is a prerequisite for the listed CR to apply is obviously NOT valid. This argument was now made several times here and was repeatedly ignored.

OF COURSE all your tactics and buff suggestions would have made the encounter harder. Its just that

a) they did not make sense in the scope of the campaign

b) they really should not be a prerequsite for running the game successfully.

Smite + archery tree is OFF. You do NOT kill a challenging (i. e. CR significantly higher than you level)demon or dragon reliably in one round.

Of course you can fight this by using elaborate tactics (or harder monsters). But thats not how its presented in the rules.

Using elabore tactics and envoronment to the monsters favour should INCREASE the CR, not be necessary for the base CR to be valid.

Don't blame the AP when you go off book. I have run that AP and it works great.

What you were running was not the *@. And so the fault lies not in the AP but in the person who went off book by dropping a forest creature in the middle of an open filed in front of a well prepared ranged paladin.


Another thought just came to mind:

It can't be enjoyable for the paladins player if you constantly negate the trademark ability of his char (smite), just so that the combats last more than one round.

He should be able to USE it, and still have a fun encounter.


ciretose wrote:


Don't blame the AP when you go off book. I have run that AP and it works great.

What? Do you actually read anything I write, at all?

I never blamed the AP for anything. I think its great. Its even greater because I take my liberties with it and the players really can make it THEIR story, as opposed to just play whats written in the book.

Also the Paladin was not well prepared, aside from having his weapon at the ready.


Quote:
Smite + archery tree is OFF. You do NOT kill a challenging (i. e. CR significantly higher than you level)demon or dragon reliably in one round.

Wizards at that level can cast save or dies that do the same thing, even without bane arrows.

Quote:
Of course you can fight this by using elaborate tactics (or harder monsters). But thats not how its presented in the rules.

Yes. Yes it is. The game assumes that if they hand you a monster with spells and abilities that you USE said abilities.

Quote:
Using elaborate tactics and environment to the monsters favor should INCREASE the CR, not be necessary for the base CR to be valid.

Depends on the group. The game also assumes an amount of under optimization in parties so that the encounters don't curbstomp new players. If your group is either optimized in general or just optimized towards that one specific encounter they're going to be more powerful than the encounter.

Also, you're at the level where D&D starts to break down into a game called initiative. Go first and kill. Go last and die.


BigNorseWolf wrote:

Wizards at that level can cast save or dies that do the same thing, even without bane arrows.

Ok, hit me. What spell are you thinking of?


I don't the problem is the Paladin's smite. It's archery. It could be ranger, or fighter as well. Even a Inquisitor or Monk can be just as bad.

I have Paladin in my group. He shines everyone once in while but never in an overpowered manner. The Ranger in group with his bow is more of a problem. Bows are just plain over powered, but really shouldn't they be?


Hyla wrote:

Another thought just came to mind:

It can't be enjoyable for the paladins player if you constantly negate the trademark ability of his char (smite), just so that the combats last more than one round.

He should be able to USE it, and still have a fun encounter.

I agree with this. Taking the bow away for the one fight would not stop smite. He still has a melee weapon, hopefully.

I am not advocating never allowing ranged smiting either, but I do advocate delaying it or making the party work to make it an option again.

It is not much different than trying to make sure a rogue is not flanking by moving your bad guy out of a flanked position.


voska66 wrote:

I don't the problem is the Paladin's smite. It's archery. It could be ranger, or fighter as well. Even a Inquisitor or Monk can be just as bad.

I have Paladin in my group. He shines everyone once in while but never in an overpowered manner. The Ranger in group with his bow is more of a problem. Bows are just plain over powered, but really shouldn't they be?

I dont think they are overpowered but you have to be wary of them. That is why I said earlier a fighter or ranger would give him the same troubles.

Liberty's Edge

Mistwalker wrote:
Diego Rossi wrote:

The party know they are scryed upon. They know that the enemies has plenty of giants and other large stuff.

Guess what? If they have a bit of intelligence they don't sleep outdoor at night. At the very least they will cast Secure shelter and sleep in it. If possible they teleport to a secure location every night.

Apparently, the objective was to fight the dragon at a sight of their choosing. From what I understand, it was for poetic reasons that they choose the site of a destoryed village (birth place of one of the PCs, if I remember correctly). So, teleporting away, would only draw the attack to their sleeping location.

Secure Shelter is not secure against giants.

PRD wrote:


Secure Shelter
You conjure a sturdy cottage or lodge made of material that is common in the area where the spell is cast. The dwelling does, however, provide considerable security otherwise—it is as strong as a normal stone building, regardless of its material composition.

Secure enough. You cant teleport inside with a huge dragon, 2 large humanoids (giants) and 1 large monstrous humanoid and still have space for them to fight unhindered.

They can teleport outside and start tearing it down, but it will not be instantaneous. It is "as strong as a normal stone building", something that will require a few rounds to be teared down, even by giants.

Plenty of time for the guard to wake up his companion and for them to gather the weapons and fight back.

You will be back to the initial scenario:
the dragon and company are outside in a broad plain and full sight while the players are protected and can easily attack at range or buff up.


wraithstrike wrote:
A creature is only as challenging as you play it. CR numbers alone dont make challenging encounters.

That's true, but it seems like whatever adjustment you make, it's not going to help the dragon enough. As soon as the Paladin can attack, he's dead.

If you make major adjustments or tactics (for example the Paladin is never able to attack), specifically to counter the PC (which is more like a boss creature himself than as a member of a team), the player (rightfully) calls foul.

Sure, the Paladin has fun (I think?) by killing the dragon in the first round. Do the other 3-5 players? If I was them, I wouldn't like it either.


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Jason S wrote:
wraithstrike wrote:
A creature is only as challenging as you play it. CR numbers alone dont make challenging encounters.

That's true, but it seems like whatever adjustment you make, it's not going to help the dragon enough. As soon as the Paladin can attack, he's dead.

If you make major adjustments or tactics (for example the Paladin is never able to attack), specifically to counter the PC (which is more like a boss creature himself than as a member of a team), the player (rightfully) calls foul.

Sure, the Paladin has fun (I think?) by killing the dragon in the first round. Do the other 3-5 players? If I was them, I wouldn't like it either.

I am 100% behind any party member who kills an enemy before it kills us. It's not like the Paladin is a Superman and they are all Jimmy Olsen taking pictures of him beating up all the bad guys. An evil dragon is one of the three evil things that Paladins are designed to be super awesome against. It's like how only Fry could defeat the brain creatures, does that make Fry an overpowered superman? No, it means he had a special ability (gene manipulated stupidity in Fry's case) that made him really good at fighting brains.


Hyla wrote:
BigNorseWolf wrote:

Wizards at that level can cast save or dies that do the same thing, even without bane arrows.

Ok, hit me. What spell are you thinking of?

Baleful polymorph. 10 (base) +5 (spell level) +7 int +2 (school and greater school focus) = DC 24 without any shenanigans. Roughly 50 50 chance of one shotting it.


Jason S wrote:
wraithstrike wrote:
A creature is only as challenging as you play it. CR numbers alone dont make challenging encounters.

That's true, but it seems like whatever adjustment you make, it's not going to help the dragon enough. As soon as the Paladin can attack, he's dead.

If you make major adjustments or tactics (for example the Paladin is never able to attack), specifically to counter the PC (which is more like a boss creature himself than as a member of a team), the player (rightfully) calls foul.

Sure, the Paladin has fun (I think?) by killing the dragon in the first round. Do the other 3-5 players? If I was them, I wouldn't like it either.

I think you have to consider whether or not the player rolled extremely high or not though. You can't use a corner case to prove a point.

If he could reliably hit the dragon then I would have changed the dragon's listed spells if it did not have shield and mage armor to push the AC above 30.

As I said before disarming the paladin was possible in the surprise round. I don't advocate it as something that should always be done, but you can't just stand in front of a damage dealing character and allow them full attacks or you will die even if you are CR +2 above APL.

A ranger could have done the same thing.

Rangers and paladins are really good against single opponents.

I dont think the player can call foul. If the player were in the dragon's shoes would he put himself in a situation to let someone have open shots at him or would he try to negate the situation?

I can't speak for other GM's, but I try to play my NPC's realistically.

Liberty's Edge

Paladins are supposed to be powerful against evil things, dragons even more so. Also, bows seem to be very powerful in Pathfinder (full attacks from way out of reach every round). Bane arrows are an extra plus in favour of the ranged paladin. It just sounds like it was a scenario that the paladin was specifically designed to overcome, and did.

Next time maybe try multiple critters (maybe even some neutral ones, so the smite isn't always effective), high mobility to force the archer into melee, or other things like that?


Pathfinder Maps Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber
Diego Rossi wrote:


PRD wrote:


Secure Shelter
You conjure a sturdy cottage or lodge made of material that is common in the area where the spell is cast. The dwelling does, however, provide considerable security otherwise—it is as strong as a normal stone building, regardless of its material composition.

Secure enough. You cant teleport inside with a huge dragon, 2 large humanoids (giants) and 1 large monstrous humanoid and still have space for them to fight unhindered.

They can teleport outside and start tearing it down, but it will not be instantaneous. It is "as strong as a normal stone building", something that will require a few rounds to be teared down, even by giants.

Plenty of time for the guard to wake up his companion and for them to gather the weapons and fight back.

You will be back to the initial scenario:
the dragon and company are outside in a broad plain and full sight while the players are protected and can easily attack at range or buff up.

And if the giants stay at 60' distance, on the other side of the entrance, lobbing boulders at it, they can destroy it. If the PCs buff, then exit, the giants simply withdraw.

If the PCs pursue, they end up in an ambush situation when the lamia and dragon pounce on them.

If the PCs do not pursue, then their buffs expire and a couple of hours later, the dragon's party attacks in earnest. The PCs at this point have no Secure Shelter.

It's all about using the right tactics.

Liberty's Edge

Jason S wrote:
wraithstrike wrote:
A creature is only as challenging as you play it. CR numbers alone dont make challenging encounters.

That's true, but it seems like whatever adjustment you make, it's not going to help the dragon enough. As soon as the Paladin can attack, he's dead.

If you make major adjustments or tactics (for example the Paladin is never able to attack), specifically to counter the PC (which is more like a boss creature himself than as a member of a team), the player (rightfully) calls foul.

Sure, the Paladin has fun (I think?) by killing the dragon in the first round. Do the other 3-5 players? If I was them, I wouldn't like it either.

But you also have to keep in mind the advantages the Paladin has that anyone would have in that situation against that specific opponent.

1. Dragonbane Arrows are +2 and an average bonus of 7 damage each hit.
2. Haste is an extra attack and another +1 to hit.

All 5 of the Paladin’s feats are tied up to be able to use Manyshot (another attack) and Rapid Shot. Not to mention all of the Paladin’s ability points are tied up in Charisma and Dex.

For contrast, if this paladin is forced into Melee with the dragon they are attacking at +16/+16/+10 with haste while smiting +18 damage.

What we are looking at is base +9/+4. Add in Dex and we are at +13/+8. Add in a +1 Bow and we are at +14/+9 with a +1 to damage. Rapid Shot makes it +12/+12/+7. Manyshot makes it functionally +12/+12/+12/+7 with a +1 to damage against everyone but the dragon. Add in Haste and we are up to (functionally) +13/+13/+13/+13/+7 with a +1 to damage on every hit.

Now add smite to add Charisma to hit and we are at +19/+19/+19/+19/+13 against the dragon with a +19 to damage (Because it’s a dragon, normal evil would only be +10). Impressive, but manageable. Particularly if the Dragon buffs up to AC 28, it’s a 55/45 on the high rolls.

Now we add in the dragon-bane arrows to take it to +21/+21/+21/+21/+16 with +26 damage.

Then deadly aim comes in, -3 to hit +6 to damage.

So we are averaging +35 to damage against the dragon (about 40 with a longbow) which is awesome, but only hitting about 50/50 since we are down to +18 on the high saves, and we need a 15 or higher to hit with the last attack. And one of these attacks, +2 of the attack bonus, and 7 of the damage per round come from extraordinary circumstances.

But what are we doing against everyone else? We only have a +7 damage with deadly aim (unless they are giants) and we are only rolling +13 on our high attack. Take off deadly aim and you are down to +1 again…which is pretty much nothing.

Even against evil non-dragons you are looking at +17 damage. Good, but not overwhelming considering the level.

So three times a day the Paladin will be awesome against a single enemy if that enemy is a dragon, an evil outsider, or an undead creature.

The rest of the time…not so much. And if he has to get into melee, not so much at all.

So the “problem” occurs in a very specific circumstance the Paladin is more or less built for.

Otherwise, the Paladin isn't all that impressive.

Liberty's Edge

wraithstrike wrote:
Diego Rossi wrote:
wraithstrike wrote:


The head/bite attack has a reach of 15 feet. The other attacks have a reach of 10. That is why I chose the bite attack to do the grapple with.

I doubt that the dragon can start a grapple with its bite attack.

When a creature can do that it is usually described in its special ability entry or it is self evident (it has only a bite attack and the grab ability).

and you still have a grappled dragon that plummet to the ground.

He need the grab ability or the snatch feat to do what you want it to do.

I was assuming a regular grapple attack, using a standard action. You don't need or or snatch to grapple. Grab allows you to do it as a free action, and Snatch allows you to do it as a free action also, but with a size limitation.

Nothing restricts a dragon from using the grapple combat maneuver.

edit: Where are you getting the dragon plumetting to the ground from?

To repeat it again:

"And BTW:
Grapple

Quote:
If successful, both you and the target gain the grappled condition
Quote:
Grappled: A grappled creature is restrained by a creature, trap, or effect. Grappled creatures cannot move and take a –4 penalty to Dexterity.

Oops, the dragon has just plummeted to the ground. He has no magical flight and he will not stay airborne if not moving."

You need :

PRD wrote:
Grab (Ex) If a creature with this special attack hits with the indicated attack (usually a claw or bite attack), it deals normal damage and attempts to start a grapple as a free action without provoking an attack of opportunity. The creature has the option to conduct the grapple normally, or simply to use the part of its body it used in the grab to hold the opponent. If it chooses to do the latter, it takes a –20 penalty on its CMB check to make and maintain the grapple, but does not gain the grappled condition itself.

or

PRD wrote:

Snatch

This creature can grab other creatures with ease.
Prerequisite: Size Huge or larger.
Benefits: The creature can start a grapple when it hits with a claw or bite attack, as though it had the grab ability.

The dragon will suffer a -20 to his attack roll in its attempt to grapple the paladin without being grappled.

And tailoring your dragon feats to incapacitate the small paladin (as snatch will work only on small creatures for a huge dragon) is really bad form.

You can play fast and loose with the rules having the dragon grapple the gnome at the end of its move, staying airborne as it has already moved and then dropping him at the start of its next round, attacking and then flying away, claiming that even if it was grappled for a whole turn it never stopped its movement as rules go. It would be RAW (maybe) but absolutely not RAI and a bad GM tactic.


Diego Rossi wrote:
wraithstrike wrote:
Diego Rossi wrote:
wraithstrike wrote:


The head/bite attack has a reach of 15 feet. The other attacks have a reach of 10. That is why I chose the bite attack to do the grapple with.

I doubt that the dragon can start a grapple with its bite attack.

When a creature can do that it is usually described in its special ability entry or it is self evident (it has only a bite attack and the grab ability).

and you still have a grappled dragon that plummet to the ground.

He need the grab ability or the snatch feat to do what you want it to do.

I was assuming a regular grapple attack, using a standard action. You don't need or or snatch to grapple. Grab allows you to do it as a free action, and Snatch allows you to do it as a free action also, but with a size limitation.

Nothing restricts a dragon from using the grapple combat maneuver.

edit: Where are you getting the dragon plumetting to the ground from?

To repeat it again:

"And BTW:
Grapple

Quote:
If successful, both you and the target gain the grappled condition
Quote:
Grappled: A grappled creature is restrained by a creature, trap, or effect. Grappled creatures cannot move and take a –4 penalty to Dexterity.

Oops, the dragon has just plummeted to the ground. He has no magical flight and he will not stay airborne if not moving."

You need :

PRD wrote:
Grab (Ex) If a creature with this special attack hits with the indicated attack (usually a claw or bite attack), it deals normal damage and attempts to start a grapple as a free action without provoking an attack of opportunity. The creature has the option to conduct the grapple normally, or simply to use the part of its body it used in the grab to hold the opponent. If it chooses to do the latter, it takes a –20 penalty on its CMB check to make and maintain the grapple, but does not gain the grappled condition itself.

or

PRD wrote:

Snatch

This creature can grab other
...

Move? I never said the dragon was going anywhere. He can hover with a DC 15 fly check. Grab is not needed to grapple. That is like saying if a dragon has the improved grapple feat he could not grapple anyone with the bite attack. Grab is only needed to grapple as a free attack.

edit:The part you bolded is if the creature with grab does not want the grapple condition applied to itself. Maybe on the next round I just release the paladin as a free action. He should be prone. You can't fire a bow when prone. If he stands up he provokes.


Quote:
Grab is not needed to grapple.

It is to not be grappled.

Quote:

Grab is only needed to grapple as a free attack.

It's also needed to maintain a grapple without counting as grappled.

Quote:
edit:The part you bolded is if the creature with grab does not want the grapple condition applied to itself. Maybe on the next round I just release the paladin as a free action. He should be prone. You can't fire a bow when prone. If he stands up he provokes.

Grappling suddenly causes you to fall prone? Is there a save for that? A CMD?


Cartigan wrote:
Quote:
Grab is not needed to grapple.

It is to not be grappled.

Quote:

Grab is only needed to grapple as a free attack.

It's also needed to maintain a grapple without counting as grappled.

Quote:
edit:The part you bolded is if the creature with grab does not want the grapple condition applied to itself. Maybe on the next round I just release the paladin as a free action. He should be prone. You can't fire a bow when prone. If he stands up he provokes.
Grappling suddenly causes you to fall prone? Is there a save for that? A CMD?

Are you going to say that when people fall, not jump, they land on their feet? I doubt the dragon will hold them in such a convenient position.


wraithstrike wrote:
Cartigan wrote:
Quote:
Grab is not needed to grapple.

It is to not be grappled.

Quote:

Grab is only needed to grapple as a free attack.

It's also needed to maintain a grapple without counting as grappled.

Quote:
edit:The part you bolded is if the creature with grab does not want the grapple condition applied to itself. Maybe on the next round I just release the paladin as a free action. He should be prone. You can't fire a bow when prone. If he stands up he provokes.
Grappling suddenly causes you to fall prone? Is there a save for that? A CMD?
Are you going to say that when people fall, not jump, they land on their feet? I doubt the dragon will hold them in such a convenient position.

All the Gnome Paladin has to do to not land prone is make a DC 15 Acrobatics check. Difficult, but he could.


CR is given counting their INT modifier. If it has INT 14 play it (tactics/buffs) that way. If you teleport instead of the dragonslaying, smiting pally and say boo, prepare to be owned. Don't blame the game, blame the player (or DM).

Of course you feel disappointed when your über mob gets owned, just look at its INT and think what would a character with his score do. Surely no one above INT 6 would charge unbuffed in front of a swat team wearing bazookas

Liberty's Edge

Quote:
Total dmg (four hits): 12d6 + 89 (mean 131, max 161). Dragons HP: 136.

That sounds about right. (My halfling with an Oathbow will be doing even better.)

Vs. "stupid evil", paladins are the DPR champs of the game.


Cartigan wrote:
wraithstrike wrote:
Cartigan wrote:
Quote:
Grab is not needed to grapple.

It is to not be grappled.

Quote:

Grab is only needed to grapple as a free attack.

It's also needed to maintain a grapple without counting as grappled.

Quote:
edit:The part you bolded is if the creature with grab does not want the grapple condition applied to itself. Maybe on the next round I just release the paladin as a free action. He should be prone. You can't fire a bow when prone. If he stands up he provokes.
Grappling suddenly causes you to fall prone? Is there a save for that? A CMD?
Are you going to say that when people fall, not jump, they land on their feet? I doubt the dragon will hold them in such a convenient position.
All the Gnome Paladin has to do to not land prone is make a DC 15 Acrobatics check. Difficult, but he could.

True. The dragon would rather take a chance with that than arrows to the face though.


BigNorseWolf wrote:


Baleful polymorph. 10 (base) +5 (spell level) +7 int +2 (school and greater school focus) = DC 24 without any shenanigans. Roughly 50 50 chance of one shotting it.

Of course this is completely maxed out (Int 24 in level needs a +4 stat booster item - none of our players has one at the moment) and disregarding the dragons SR of 22.

This would lower the chance of success to about 20-25% - not too great (in other words the spell will likely fail).

Also the range of the spell is just 70 ft or so. This means that in our scenario the wizard could not have cast it at all.

All in all smite is clearly much better than baleful polymorph in this situation.


I knew this would turn into a huge debate. Should've gotten the popcorn ready earlier.


Mike Schneider wrote:

(My halfling with an Oathbow will be doing even better.)

An oathbow is unusual (powerful) equipment for a lvl 9 character.

Liberty's Edge

Mistwalker wrote:
Diego Rossi wrote:


PRD wrote:


Secure Shelter
You conjure a sturdy cottage or lodge made of material that is common in the area where the spell is cast. The dwelling does, however, provide considerable security otherwise—it is as strong as a normal stone building, regardless of its material composition.

Secure enough. You cant teleport inside with a huge dragon, 2 large humanoids (giants) and 1 large monstrous humanoid and still have space for them to fight unhindered.

They can teleport outside and start tearing it down, but it will not be instantaneous. It is "as strong as a normal stone building", something that will require a few rounds to be teared down, even by giants.

Plenty of time for the guard to wake up his companion and for them to gather the weapons and fight back.

You will be back to the initial scenario:
the dragon and company are outside in a broad plain and full sight while the players are protected and can easily attack at range or buff up.

And if the giants stay at 60' distance, on the other side of the entrance, lobbing boulders at it, they can destroy it. If the PCs buff, then exit, the giants simply withdraw.

If the PCs pursue, they end up in an ambush situation when the lamia and dragon pounce on them.

If the PCs do not pursue, then their buffs expire and a couple of hours later, the dragon's party attacks in earnest. The PCs at this point have no Secure Shelter.

It's all about using the right tactics.

Extremely funny, we should assume intelligent NPC and stupid PC all the time?

Option 1): the paladin get near the door and is hasted, a ally wait till the next round and open the door just before the paladin initiative count (free action to speak outside the pally round and say "ready"). The pally use smite on one of the giants and deliver his 5 arrows. Stone giant with 24-25 AC (better than standard) get hit 4 time out of 5 for 12+3d6 (giant bane bow)x4= 90 hp of damage. Another 12 hp of damage by any of the pally companions and he is dead. almost guaranteed that the attacker will lose one of their own before withdrawing.

option 2) the party buff up then all take the delay action till the wizard is ready to dimension door/teleport right behind the giants.
1 initiative tick after they have teleported they all act (barring the wizard) unleashing their better attacks. With a bit of attention to their positioning before being teleported they can have the meele guys within 5' from the giants and the archer in the back outside the giant reach.

option 3) the giants use improved invisibility, so the party don't know their exact position (the wizard will probably have see invisibility, but maybe he failed memorizing it). Dimension door/teleport to a safe location without the giants being wise about that (they don't se inside the shelter). Stalemate (or the giants get a free scrying casting every hour in your scenario?).

I con go on for countless scenarios, depending on party resources and other factors. Generally hit and run tactics from NPC work only if you can force the players in doing what you want.
As already pointed out the players have some kind of safe house protected by scrying. It is very hard to get them if they aren't willing to collaborate.
You can get a series of stalemates, and that can be good for the BEEG as they usually want time to complete their plans, but it will not help the giant party.


Cheapy wrote:
I knew this would turn into a huge debate.

Seems to be something to it then. ;)


Maxximilius wrote:

*Logins on messageboards.*

*Sees 220 new posts on the "Smite Evil" thread.*

It's like wondering why your giant eagle BBEG was changed into nuggets by the two-handed fighter, only to discover that apparently your eagle was previously buffed by some spells, but for some reason didn't fly. Oh, and the THF had a Eagle Bane Greatsword, and the "I kill eagles for the fun" feat.
Surely the two-handed fighter is too powerful, and the giant eagle's CR, broken.

Or maybe he just didn't fly.

+1


1 person marked this as a favorite.

@Wraithstrike coolest name ever. Loved that spell, especially when persisted ;)

Grand Lodge

Hyla wrote:
Mike Schneider wrote:

(My halfling with an Oathbow will be doing even better.)

An oathbow is unusual (powerful) equipment for a lvl 9 character.

Not really, WBL has him at 46k gold, the oathbow is 25.6k gold, if you're an archer it's a good purchase all things told. Yeah, it's breaking the curve somewhat, but it's not -that- bad.

Liberty's Edge

wraithstrike wrote:

Move? I never said the dragon was going anywhere. He can hover with a DC 15 fly check. Grab is not needed to grapple. That is like saying if a dragon has the improved grapple feat he could not grapple anyone with the bite attack. Grab is only needed to grapple as a free attack.

edit:The part you bolded is if the creature with grab does not want the grapple condition applied to itself. Maybe on the next round I just release the paladin as a free action. He should be prone. You can't fire a bow when prone. If he stands up he provokes.

With you I never get if you are in the habit of skimming posts and fail in noticing things or if you are simply a troll.

Here we go again, Maybe this time you will read it completely:

Step by step:

1) the dragon fly up to the party and grapple the paladin.

2) the dragon has grappled the paladin, but he is itself grappled (unless he has grab or snatch and take the -20).

3) Being grappled mean it can't move. No move, natural flight, you fall to the ground.

4) Now he need to hover. You either need a feat (called Hover, what a surprise) that a typical young adult green dragon hasn't, or you need to make a fly check, a skill that your grappled dragon will do at -2 due to the loss of dexterity.
Our dragon has a maximized fly skill for +12-4(huge)- 4 (poor maneuvrablity and wings)+0 (10 dex) -2 (dex penalty for being grappled)= 2. DC 15 he succeed with a 13+, if he fail he fall to the ground [it can't move, so even if it fail by less than 5 it can't satisfy the requirements for flying]. 60% of falling. In the middle of the enemy group. Nice.

And that is even allowing it to use a flying maneuver freely while being grappled.

Note that while he is doing this stuff the dragon is hoovering in range of the whole party and grappled, so again he suffer for a loss of 2 point of AC and 2 points from his reflex save.

The dragon has 2 solution to the problem, but both solution mean tailoring it for snatching small creatures, i.e. purposefully aiming it at crippling the small paladin: he can get Hover or he can get Snatch.
The first option allow it to hover without rolling a skill check, the other allow it to grapple without being grappled in return if it attempt the grapple taking a -20.


Hyla wrote:

Your examples are absurd.

Consider the RotR AP. The two dragons encountered there

** spoiler omitted **

meet the party over open ground, outside of their lairs and without any extra equipment.

Nonetheless the designers chose to use the listed CR.

I guess you guys all know your stuff better than Paizos adventure designers....

His examples may be absurd, but he's 100% right. The fact of the matter is that creatures who are outside their comfort zone are easier to defeat. Predators such as tigers are often effortlessly easy, or at least non-threatening, if they cannot ambush enemies and get their pounce on during the surprise round.

Also, sorry, but buffs don't increase CR significantly. In fact, the game even declares giving an NPC full PC-wealth is just enough to give them +1 CR. I want you to think about that for a moment. PC-Wealth. Seriously, that trumps everything resembling a buff spell. You could have buffed the dragon with every 2nd level ability enhancing spell, mirror imaged him (via scroll), displaced him, enhanced him with death ward and magic circle against chaos/evil/good/law, and it STILL wouldn't be worth PC-wealth.

I cannot help but to find it amazing that you would admittedly use very poor tactics that imply great ineptitude among the villains and still insist that everyone else is wrong because they recommend that you play the NPCs to their fullest; all the while bemoaning CR and complaining about an anti-evil thing actually working as intended.

So I reiterate: As long as you play the villains like they want to jump on the party's swords, don't want to see their families again afterwords, don't want to use tactics common to people half their level, ignore all their wealth (also, see below), consider buffs to not be chivalrous or something, and step out of their comfort zones to willingly be ambushed by PCs who are forewarned and waiting for them; then YES, BASIC STUFF WILL BE OVERPOWERED.

Also, for those complaining about the dragon and its treasure values and what-not, check this out. Dragons have triple standard wealth. This means that either they are loaded with gear or they are loaded with trade items such as coins, cattle, art, and/or other treasures. Well check it out guys: If the dragon has gear, he should use it (wondrous items resize to fit their users), and if it's money he can invest in his survival. See, if a dragon goes and buys up some potions and scrolls, and then could use that to slaughter PCs and take their stuff, the dragon actually increases the size of his or her horde. Trade 1500 gp worth of buffing scrolls for the party's entire treasure if the dragon manages to kill them, or even the wealth of a single moderately leveled hero?

I'm not buying it. This is not the failing of the CR system, smite evil, or even archery. This is a failing of the GM to run the creatures in a believable way, and more of a failure of listening.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Also:

Gaming is full of surprises. Players get surprises every time something happens in the game, the GM gets them rarely. So, if a Green Dragon gets one-rounded by a smiting Paladin for whatever reason, the best thing is to sit back, enjoy the moment, drink a beer and reflect on how would you feel as a player if some tactical blunder or pure bad luck would leave your PC dead in one full attack.

Then bounce back with "oh well, there's more to come" and have fun.

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