The scenario has always been AM BARBARIAN is riding around on his bat, sees you, and decides it would be totally metal to murder you. You have an enraged barbarian charging you, react.
That said, write up the scenario, I'll be happy to step in on the caster side.
Order my Planetar body guard (greater planar ally) and cohort (a bard, why not?) to protect me from the obviously evil barbarian while I gate in another pair of Planetars (NG so protecting little ol' me from being murdered because that would be "metal" is very much within their alignment) and quicken (rod of metamagic, Quicken) disintegrate (spell perfection - persistant spell) on the bat. The first planetar holds an action to cast waves of exhaustion once the Barbarian is within range, the second blocks charging lanes on the off chance the Barbarian's bat survives.
Edit: Feel free to ignore the bodyguard and the cohort, they'll be there in a real game, but they're not exactly conductive to seeing who is more powerful.
You are already bending the rules here. AM BARBARIAN does not have a cohort...he has a mount. A 9HD mount (less than most mounted characters), nothing more. No bard for you.
As far as the planetar, I could give you that since they can hang around for a max 20 days. I hope you paid the exorbitant 17,000 gold for it to be your body guard. Probably more since you are asking it to do hazardous stuff and it may have to kill things that are good. I would say double is about right - 34,000 gp for your 1 planetar. And no you can not wave this because you did not know you would be attacked by a caster hating barbarian when you negotiated the terms of service.
As for gating in more planetars. From the sound of it you are attempting to gate in more than your HD in creatures (2 planetars). Are you going to negotiate terms of service with these creatures while the barbarian is killing you?
Those are my rules qualms with this duel.
The scenario has always been AM BARBARIAN is riding around on his bat, sees you, and decides it would be totally metal to murder you. You have an enraged barbarian charging you, react.
That said, write up the scenario, I'll be happy to step in on the caster side.
Order my Planetar body guard (greater planar ally) and cohort (a bard, why not?) to protect me from the obviously evil barbarian while I gate in another pair of Planetars (NG so protecting little ol' me from being murdered because that would be "metal" is very much within their alignment) and quicken (rod of metamagic, Quicken) disintegrate (spell perfection - persistant spell) on the bat.
Edit: Feel free to ignore the bodyguard and the cohort, they'll be there in a real game, but they're not exactly conductive to seeing who is more powerful.
The barbarian has mounted combat, which he can use to negate your disintegrate(his ride skill will beat your to-hit roll).
Gate allows you to barter with the creatures(which takes time), or control them. The control will work on the Planetars, however it requires concentration, so I don't believe they do anything until you actually start concentrating.
There is also the material component, I question your ability to have it readied before the barbarian is on you.
Plus there is the fact that the summon monster line says that creature act in the round that they are summoned, which gate doesn't have. So it would appear that gate won't be saving you.
So the barbarian turns you into a pink mist with a pouncing lance charge.
... I'm not reading 800 pages of posts, but I want to add my 2 cents.
There has always been a few problems with this debate.
First of all, theory vs in practice.
Any wizard can prepare spells for any encounter and win. That of course is the problem. Is he clairvoyant? I know that is a spell, but that is a bit much. How often will your party's caster actually know every encounter he is going to run into today without out right meta-gaming.
Second
Who goes first? If two level 20 characters enter an arena, and the mages doesn't go first, his low health makes he will die, or lose one of his clone bodies, in ether case, lose the match against anyone who can do about 60+ damage in 1 round.
Third
Situation and environment, much like the first, how far away are the two characters. Are they adjacent to each other? are they 30 feet away? Are they 3000 feet away? Do they both of line of sight? Can they both see?
Fourth
This game wasn't meant for PvP it is PvE! The mechanics, and the classes reflect this greatly, this game wasn't meant for classes to go 1 on 1 with each other "I guess technically you can if you want and still have fun." It was meant for 4-6 people to slay dragons.
Although I guess 4 wizards could probably take out a dragon as appose to a fighter, a wizard, a cleric and a rogue. If the dragon doesn't counter spell, Anti Magic field the whole group and light them on fire.
You are already bending the rules here. AM BARBARIAN does not have a cohort...he has a mount. A 9HD mount (less than most mounted characters), nothing more. No bard for you.
As far as the planetar, I could give you that since they can hang around for a max 20 days. I hope you paid the exorbitant 17,000 gold for it to be your body guard. Probably more since you are asking it to do hazardous stuff and it may have to kill things that are good. I would say double is about right - 34,000 gp for your 1 planetar. And no you can not wave this because you did not know you would be attacked by a caster hating barbarian when you negotiated the terms of service.
As for gating in more planetars. From the sound of it you are attempting to gate in more than your HD in creatures (2 planetars). Are you going to negotiate terms of service with these creatures while the barbarian is killing you?
Those are my rules qualms with this...
You can gate 2 times your caster level, though it gets a little unclear on being able to control 2 times your caster level.
Wizards don't have to pay for planar binding, though they can.
You can gate 2 times your caster level, though it gets a little unclear on being able to control 2 times your caster level.Wizards don't have to pay for planar binding, though they can.
If you gate your caster lvl or less HD then you control them, If more than your caster lvl (up to 2xcaster lvl) then you do not and must negotiate for service. Even if you do control them it is still a good idea to negotiate services as being sucked off your home plane with no notification and thrown into battle can leave a bitter taste in your mouth.
Plannar Ally (and its lesser/greater) is a cleric/oracle spell. He is not a wizard. My guess would be he is a lvl 20 cleric of Nethis (Destruction domain for disintegrate) This is not a binding. He must pay his 34,000 gp.
As for the concept of initiative. Usually we give wizards the initiative as they bump it a lot, have a decent dex, and can be divination spec'ed. I would actually give the Barbarian the initiative since clerics tend to dump dex while newer Barbarian Builds don't.
If you gate your caster lvl or less HD then you control them, If more than your caster lvl (up to 2xcaster lvl) then you do not and must negotiate for service. Even if you do control them it is still a good idea to negotiate services as being sucked off your home plane with no notification and thrown into battle can leave a bitter taste in your mouth.
Guess spells are complicated ;)
Plannar Ally (and its lesser/greater) is a cleric/oracle spell. He is not a wizard. My guess would be he is a lvl 20 cleric of Nethis (Destruction domain for disintegrate) This is not a binding. He must pay his 34,000 gp.
They mentioned planar binding in there original post. And really, at that level, 34,000 gp isn't that much.
As for the concept of initiative. Usually we give wizards the initiative as they bump it a lot, have a decent dex, and can be divination spec'ed. I would actually give the Barbarian the initiative since clerics tend to dump dex while newer Barbarian Builds don't.
I was getting bored with everyone being a Divinationist wizard, so I kinda gave initiative to shadowcat.
First, let the AM side pick 1 person who will enter this contest against me. I'll deal with that person's comments and only that person's comments from here on. We'll start this with actual set distances, and maneuverability rules, and at least a list of buffs.
I am not fighting AM BARBARIANS battle. I am not saying what I would do. to counter. I am just clarifying the rules according to your strategy. I have done the same thing to AM BARBARIAN when he wanted to have FIGHTY barbarians shoot arrows from 2500 ft away even though he could not see anything further than about 400 ft away.
Secondly, the cohort / planar ally was an example of the problems that arise from just saying "You're being attacked, how do you respond." I don't plan to actually use a planar ally or a cohort in this match.
Fair enough.
Third, gate has a note for negotiating if you require a long term service. I'm simply summoning a pair of angels and asking them to do the good and noble thing, which is to prevent a murder in cold blood. That said I don't have to note that talking is a free action. Of course, I could just offer them half of said barbarian's 800,000+ gp in equipment, he won't be needing it shortly.
Fair enough. They could just as easily ask why you brought them into your own problems and leave. They are NG not neutral stupid and being called, they will actually die permanently if killed. I would say that any negotiation would take at least one round (Greater Planar Ally is a good starting point for how long negotiations take). Honestly though...a lot of this is left to the DM.
Fourth, retrieving a spell component is part of the action of casting a spell. There's no "you can't get that before the barbarian's on you." Play by the rules of the game.
Agree
Whose to say that my character would ever willingly slay a good aligned opponent? We'll go with base cost on spells, as AM already pointed out, anyone can win a combat if they just randomly make stuff up.
Fair enough. Being a body guard is hazardous but not necessarily "especially hazardous".
As a side note. We are not ganging up on you. Spell crafting rules are inherently complex, especially when you start sling multiple high level spells around. Just trying to clarify intentions.
Also. I love the idea about using waves of exhaustion. Brilliant! Same with the rage cycle hold action strategy.
If I'm going to AM BARBARIAN without typing in all caps (An entirely new experience, believe me), then I'd want to throw out the following:
1) It is entirely possible to rear an unusual mount. You could probably question where the holy heck he found a dire bat to rear, but... 20th level barbarian. There isn't exactly much that can stop him.
2) Waves of fatigue is a fairly interesting strategy. It does work against the Barbarian. It's risky, because not only can the Barbarian can charge you from further out than 30 feet, but if you hit it the Barbarian still has his current rage going on... and can probably still wreck you. As a Barbarian, you'd want to either have the Negates Fatigue/Exhaustion rage power, or else be a human with Heart of the Fields and Roused Anger.
Cycle out. Cycle back in as Still Fatigued with your Roused Anger. When you cycle out of that rage, negate the exhaustion that your fatigue becomes. Or just negate the waves. Six of one, half-dozen of the other.
3) Putting an enemy in between you and the Barbarian is a really careless idea if you're counting on it to stop charges. Ride-By Attack allows the Barbarian to charge the creature, full-attack it, and end his round right next to you. Since he has a lance and claws, you can't get out of his threatened range without popping one of your teleportation abilities, and he can and will threaten against you the whole time.
4) It is never a good idea to ready an action for if the Barbarian rage-cycles. The only reason a Barbarian has to rage cycle is to refresh Spell Sunder or Strength Surge. If you're readying an action, he doesn't have to use Spell Sunder or Strength Surge. Thus, Rage Cycling is not required. Thus, the Barbarian is free to do whatever the heck he feels like, up to and including charging squishy casty #249.
And finally 5) I seriously went into this thread intending to type in all caps and be silly. The fact that Barbarians turned out to be really as strong as I was saying in my AM BARBARIAN ranting once I started researching for serious? I am pleasantly surprised. If I did prove Barbarians can win, it was 33% accidental.
EDIT: You did just give me an idea. Using Leadership to purchase an Awakened/Celestial/Whatever Dire Bat cohort. Lord knows BARBARIAN AM HAVING MAD FEAT SLOTS OPEN. BARBARIAN HAVE FEAT SLOTS LIKE CENTIPEDE.
3) Putting an enemy in between you and the Barbarian is a really careless idea if you're counting on it to stop charges. Ride-By Attack allows the Barbarian to charge the creature, full-attack it, and end his round right next to you. Since he has a lance and claws, you can't get out of his threatened range without popping one of your teleportation abilities, and he can and will threaten against you the whole time.
Do you have anything that hinders casting defensively after the speed bump slaughter? It seems like there may be some opportunities at this juncture if not.
To be clear I am not sure what those would look like right now.
3) Putting an enemy in between you and the Barbarian is a really careless idea if you're counting on it to stop charges. Ride-By Attack allows the Barbarian to charge the creature, full-attack it, and end his round right next to you. Since he has a lance and claws, you can't get out of his threatened range without popping one of your teleportation abilities, and he can and will threaten against you the whole time.Do you have anything that hinders casting defensively after the speed bump slaughter? It seems like there may be some opportunities at this juncture if not.
To be clear I am not sure what those would look like right now.
The obstacles are basically 'you can't put a summoned creature there, he's still raging, and your options are basically try to cast defensively and teleport or else just kind of stand there and get spells off.'
If you're going to Waves of Fatigue, THAT would be the time to do it. The problem is, being fatigued doesn't end your rage.
Its not fatigue. It's EXHAUSTION. You got hosed. You are not immune to to and can not by pass it. Also Its a 60ft cone and no save. No Rage For You!
Its not fatigue. It's EXHAUSTION. You got hosed. You are not immune to to and can not by pass it. Also Its a 60ft cone and no save. No Rage For You!
Interesting theory... Two things:
1) That still doesn't end your current rage. You just can't ENTER a rage if tired or exhausted. The pooped barbarian has ample time to murder you before needing a nap. It's a common misconception to think that being fatigued ends your rage, but that is (luckily for all Barbarians everywhere) not the case.
2)
Heart of the Fields: Humans born in rural areas are used to hard labor. They gain a bonus equal to half their character level to any one Craft or Profession skill, and once per day they may ignore an effect that would cause them to become fatigued or exhausted. This racial trait replaces the skilled racial trait.
They can just use that.
Which is a well and good assumption, aside from the part where the Barbarian has a charge radius of 360 feet, and dominate is close range. (So... 75 feet). Disintigrate can't land due to Mounted Combat.
Odds are your simulacrum or what have you will get destroyed... assuming you travel through one of those. Then you have no information to go on to find this Barbarian, you have to summon and deal with Balors...
Which he then spell sunders out of existence in a standard action.
I'm not contesting that Wizards can do a lot of stuff; they really can.
The problem is that AM BARBARIAN AM NON-CRAPPY BARBARIAN; DOES STUFF TO THINGS AND SQUISH NOODLEY CASTYS.
And that crux of the argument is incredibly difficult to disprove, because it is in all caps stated by a really big guy.
Now, I'm not trying to be a jerk. but..
Spell Sunder makes you MAD?
Sundering? Something based on strength. Which all of your other abilities are also based on.
Makes you... MAD?
...uh... explain please? You lost me.
BARBARIAN AM CONFUSE. AM 25% CHANCE ATTACK NEAREST TARGET.
Must build mage hunting barbarian.
PS - what i really like about the barbarians spell sunder ability is that he can choose what to sunder and he ignores any miss chance caused by a spell or spell like ability. That is of course in addition to the main function of the ability.
Eater of Magic (Su)
Prerequisite: Barbarian 10, superstition rage power
Benefit: Once per rage, when a barbarian fails a saving throw against a spell, supernatural ability, or spell-like ability, she can reroll the saving throw against the effect (this is not an action). If she succeeds at the second saving throw, she is not affected by the spell, supernatural ability, or spell-like ability and gains a number of temporary hit points equal to the effect’s caster level (in the case of spell or spell-like abilities) or the CR of the effect’s creator (in the case of supernatural abilities). These temporary hit points last until damage is applied to them or 1 minute, whichever occurs first.
Is this the one you're thinking of? It's a 1/rage new saving throw that if you pass gives you bonus HPs.
And looking at it up close, it's even BETTER since you're flat out not affected by it at all (In the event you failed your first fireball save and pass this, you're unaffected instead of taking half. Same for something like ray of exhaustion).
The only thing that's MAD about this ability is the part where it's MAD AWESOME.
[
It's MAD cause getting a will save good enough to beat most spell DC's is pretty hard, and you also need Strength and Con, and a bit of Dex never hurts a barbarian. Regardless, I stand by my previous point: spellcasters are stronger than non-spellcasters by their ability to affect the world in ways outside combat, while still retaining in combat advantage.
You did hear about the aprt where said barbarian is getting like +30 to said saves right? Right?
Doesn't Mind Fog allow a save, making it a wash unless you're very specialized in it? And energy drain has far too short range to be of any use. And requires a ranged touch attack.
If the barbarian can so much as pinpoint your square, he can spell sunder your invisibility, which ignores magically-induced miss chance.
And I am sure that a Barbarian has a way of figuring out at least the square an invisible enemy is in at 20th freaking level.
Altogether, +29, against the Wizards DC of 10 + 14 + 1 (School Focus) + 1 (Ioun Stone) + 9 = 35.
And this is for my own notes... which ioun stone gives +1 to save DCs? I wants it for my mages. :D
Orange, I believe.Altogether, +29, against the Wizards DC of 10 + 14 + 1 (School Focus) + 1 (Ioun Stone) + 9 = 35.And this is for my own notes... which ioun stone gives +1 to save DCs? I wants it for my mages. :D
That's only +1 Caster Level... which does nothing for save DCs, though your durations and range are lengthened.
On the other note, there's like, 17 million ways to get around invisibility in CRB alone. Permanency See Invisibility is dirt cheap (And you can wand it--Honestly UMD seems like a good pick for a side skill on this barbarian), or even Arcane Sight if you feel particularly evil.
Orange gives one to caster level, not spell DC's.
The quick Will save DC above was in error.
It's +13 JUST from superstition.
Then +2 Iron Will, +5 Resist, +4 Wis, +6 levels, for +30 Will Save, and Improved for a re-roll.
I'd personally like to know what wording in a Contingency spell allows it to know 'when combat begins.' I think it will trigger when you get 'attacked' by a mosquito.
Mages abusing Contingency is another hallmark of bad wizard arguments.
I will note that the barb build isn't mature until level 17, because before then it only gets off 1 spell sunder in combat. That's nice, but the ability to chain get rid of everything the mage does with spell sunders really is the power of the class.
And why is everyone assuming summoning beasts would save them? The barb doesn't have to fight the summoned creatures. He has to kill the wizard.
===Aelryinth
What spell lets you summon two Ancient Gold Dragons that will fit in a prismatic sphere? I would like that spell please!
You're casting a level 9 spell to start, then 4 level 5 spells to create a box wall of force which doesn't have a top or bottom.
Another level 9 spell which is centered on you and you can't cast out of because you have no line of sight/effect, though you can step through it to look but that is a move action.
I think you meant Force Cage which is a level 7 spell. Of course the dragons can't attack through the Force Cage, but they can use their breath weapons.
So are you casting 6 walls of force?
Legitimately the reason why i ask is because i've never played a high level caster.
If this is a spontaneous battle i don't see how you would be astral projecting.
Of course this is in the barbarians favor because he doesn't need to wait a day to prepare.
The spell that allows you to summon two golden dragons is Dominate monster + teleport.
There's so much wrong with this i don't know where to start.
The game may not have been created as a PvP, but that doesn't matter much since even when playing PvE the Wizard contributes much more than the Fighter ever could.
For instance: is there a big canyon in your path, over which the enemy has escaped? The Wizard can cast one of any dozens of spells that will get you across. The Fighter? He sits and watches the Wizard be awesome.
Another one: the enemy has slapped a wall of stone across the hallway. The Wizard can, once again, try anything from dispelling, disintigrating, transforming, or even teleporting around the wall. The Fighter can try to pick a hole through it with his sword.
Or the wizard could help his entire party, maybe buff the Fighter, while the fighter attacks what ever encounter they are in, thus buying the wizard more time for more awesome spells while he takes all the attention? Maybe cast fly on the fighter and help him get across. Those pesky harpies would be quite troublesome to deal with alone.
Again, you must know your roles in a role playing game. A fighter's role is combat, not mountain climbing, and he is damn good at giving hits and taking hits, and making sure you are left alone.
Maybe some enemy throws down a wall in front of your party. Does the wizard waste one of his awesome spells, or maybe a few low level spells on the fighter so he can clear the path for him, and for a good time too, encase there is a nice ambush waiting on the other side, it would be a bit of a problem for them if there is a buff giant full plate fighter in their way. The wizard then takes a nap and let his brutish friend have fun.
What about 4 wizards vs 3 wizards and a rogue.
Wizard 1: Hey Garrett our rogue buddy of ours, your good at sneak attacking with range weapons and two weapon fighting right? Let me haste and greater invisibility you. Take those guys out with a single full round attack. Merlin, Gandald and I Dumbledore, are going to drink some tea. Oh you should see the little cozies I knitted for them.
Wizard 2: One must appreciate the finer things in life.
Wizard 3: Yes quite.
Rogue: ...... I'm keeping their stuff.
Wizard 2: Do what you wish, but I must inspect their rings.
Again that would depend on who goes first, which is probably the biggest problem with PvP for any table top.
What's stopping him from flying around your walls of force?
I guess it all boils down to who wins initiative. If you're a divination specialist then you will and if not then it's luck of the dice.
...
The game may not have been created as a PvP, but that doesn't matter much since even when playing PvE the Wizard contributes much more than the Fighter ever could.
For instance: is there a big canyon in your path, over which the enemy has escaped? The Wizard can cast one of any dozens of spells that will get you across. The Fighter? He sits and watches the Wizard be awesome.
Another one: the enemy has slapped a wall of stone across the hallway. The Wizard can, once again, try anything from dispelling, disintigrating, transforming, or even teleporting around the wall. The Fighter can try to pick a hole through it with his sword.Or the wizard could help his entire party, maybe buff the Fighter, while he fighter attacks what ever encounter they are in, thus buying the wizard more time for more awesome spells while he takes all the attention?
Maybe some enemy throws down a wall in front of your party. Does the wizard waste one of his awesome spells, or maybe a few low level spells on the fighter so he can clear the path for him, and for a good time too, encase there is a nice ambush waiting on the other side, it would be a bit of a problem for them if there is a buff giant full plate fighter in their way. The wizard then takes a nap and let his brutish friend have fun.
What about 4 wizards vs 3 wizards and a rogue.
Wizard 1: Hey Garrett our rogue buddy of ours, your good at sneak attacking with range weapons and two weapon fighting right? Let me haste and greater invisibility you. Take those guys out with a single full round attack. Merlin, Gandald and I Dumbledore, are going to drink some tea. Oh you should see the little cozies I knitted for them.
Wizard 2: One must appreciate the finer things in life.
Wizard 3: Yes quite.
Rogue: ...... I'm keeping their stuff.
Wizard 2: Do what you wish, but I must inspect their rings.
Again that would depend on who goes first, which is probably the biggest problem with PvP for any table top.
and you wasted time killing the rogue. Just as planned! :p