Caster-Martial Disparity Battleground - No Crying.


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Shadow Lodge

Well, I'm not going to waste our time arguing another pointless theorycraft battle. :)


People are trying to handle AM BARBARIAN all wrong.

Step 1:
Find AM BARBARIAN celebrating after he finishes a romp of carnage. It shouldn't be too hard. It's probably the tavern that's half on fire and has a stack of unconscious people by the window/in a pile of broken wall.

Step 2:
Send in the bard. If the bard is female, this step is easier. If he's male, be sure to cast a spell to look female.

Step 3:
Bard serves AM BARBARIAN drinks. Trying to get him drunk is a waste of time, just get him in good mood.

Step 4:
Cast Heightened Calm Emotions. Since he's in a good mood and you're a bard with the stealth casting feats you can pull off the surprise. And since he's not in rage his will save isn't stupid high so you might actually land it.

Step 5:
Have a rational discourse with AM BARBARIAN explaining how there is a guild of 'Casty' that have nefarious...wait, that's too big a word. That have BAD plans to hurt BATTY BAT. Bat your eyelashes to seal the deal and watch the carnage to follow from a safe distance.

The fact that the 'Bad People' all snubbed you when you were trying to apply for their wizard's guild and told you to come back when you wanted to learn 'real' magic is just a minor side note and has nothing really to do with your concern about BATTY BAT. Nothing at all.

And really, you can probably drop Calm Emotions. Just a judicious use of suggestive diplomacy and oceans of booze and you should be able to wield AM BARBARIAN like a club in a similar vein as Barbarians use Body Bludgeon to kill people with their own teammates.

Power to the Skill Monkies

The Exchange

Well, I have not extrapolated to L20.

But here is what I would do at leve1 11 vs Am Barbarian.

Quickened Dazing Magic missil vs Bat and 1 vs barb as well. DC 26 will save or be dazed.

If that doesn't work, follow up with dc 29 Refex Dazing snapdragon Fireworks.

Lyrakien familiar can *easily* umd summon monster x, to block charge lanes... but lets make it simple .. lets call it 1d4+1 lantern archons

What exactly am barbarian going to do?


cp wrote:

Well, I have not extrapolated to L20.

But here is what I would do at leve1 11 vs Am Barbarian.

Quickened Dazing Magic missil vs Bat and 1 vs barb as well. DC 26 will save or be dazed.

If that doesn't work, follow up with dc 29 Refex Dazing snapdragon Fireworks.

Lyrakien familiar can *easily* umd summon monster x, to block charge lanes... but lets make it simple .. lets call it 1d4+1 lantern archons

What exactly am barbarian going to do?

SMASH. DUH.


Prost wrote:

People are trying to handle AM BARBARIAN all wrong.

Step 1:
Find AM BARBARIAN celebrating after he finishes a romp of carnage. It shouldn't be too hard. It's probably the tavern that's half on fire and has a stack of unconscious people by the window/in a pile of broken wall.

Step 2:
Send in the bard. If the bard is female, this step is easier. If he's male, be sure to cast a spell to look female.

Step 3:
Bard serves AM BARBARIAN drinks. Trying to get him drunk is a waste of time, just get him in good mood.

Step 4:
Cast Heightened Calm Emotions. Since he's in a good mood and you're a bard with the stealth casting feats you can pull off the surprise. And since he's not in rage his will save isn't stupid high so you might actually land it.

Step 5:
Have a rational discourse with AM BARBARIAN explaining how there is a guild of 'Casty' that have nefarious...wait, that's too big a word. That have BAD plans to hurt BATTY BAT. Bat your eyelashes to seal the deal and watch the carnage to follow from a safe distance.

The fact that the 'Bad People' all snubbed you when you were trying to apply for their wizard's guild and told you to come back when you wanted to learn 'real' magic is just a minor side note and has nothing really to do with your concern about BATTY BAT. Nothing at all.

And really, you can probably drop Calm Emotions. Just a judicious use of suggestive diplomacy and oceans of booze and you should be able to wield AM BARBARIAN like a club in a similar vein as Barbarians use Body Bludgeon to kill people with their own teammates.

Power to the Skill Monkies

BARBARIAN HAVE RULE. AT 50 SECONDS OF TALKY, BARBARIAN SMASH TALKER. AM LOW CHARISMA, AM NO FAN OF DIPLOMANCY.

BARBARIAN NOT ABLE TO COUNT TO 50. SOMETIMES HAPPEN SOONER.


cp wrote:

Well, I have not extrapolated to L20.

But here is what I would do at leve1 11 vs Am Barbarian.

Quickened Dazing Magic missil vs Bat and 1 vs barb as well. DC 26 will save or be dazed.

So at 11th level you can't cast a 8th level spell(1st lvl spell, +3 for Dazing, +4 for quicken), so one assumes you are using a metamagic rod. You can only apply one rod to a spell, so if you use a Rod of quicken on the 4th level spell, you can in fact cast a quicken dazing magic missile. However a Rod of quicken will run you 75.5K, WLB at 11 is 82k. If instead you quicken, and use a rod of daze you are only spending 54k, still more then half your wealth by level.

Also how are you getting a save of 26? It's a first level spell. I'd be interested in the math on that.

cp wrote:
If that doesn't work, follow up with dc 29 Refex Dazing snapdragon Fireworks.

If it doesn't work, he hits you, with pounce, and a lance. You're a pink mist.

Why is it that people either expect it to be taken on faith that casters are gods, or they give examples that are so flawed as to appear willfully deceitful?


Prost wrote:

People are trying to handle AM BARBARIAN all wrong.

Step 1:
Find AM BARBARIAN celebrating after he finishes a romp of carnage. It shouldn't be too hard. It's probably the tavern that's half on fire and has a stack of unconscious people by the window/in a pile of broken wall.

Step 2:
Send in the bard. If the bard is female, this step is easier. If he's male, be sure to cast a spell to look female.

Step 3:
Bard serves AM BARBARIAN drinks. Trying to get him drunk is a waste of time, just get him in good mood.

Step 4:
Cast Heightened Calm Emotions. Since he's in a good mood and you're a bard with the stealth casting feats you can pull off the surprise. And since he's not in rage his will save isn't stupid high so you might actually land it.

Step 5:
Have a rational discourse with AM BARBARIAN explaining how there is a guild of 'Casty' that have nefarious...wait, that's too big a word. That have BAD plans to hurt BATTY BAT. Bat your eyelashes to seal the deal and watch the carnage to follow from a safe distance.

The fact that the 'Bad People' all snubbed you when you were trying to apply for their wizard's guild and told you to come back when you wanted to learn 'real' magic is just a minor side note and has nothing really to do with your concern about BATTY BAT. Nothing at all.

And really, you can probably drop Calm Emotions. Just a judicious use of suggestive diplomacy and oceans of booze and you should be able to wield AM BARBARIAN like a club in a similar vein as Barbarians use Body Bludgeon to kill people with their own teammates.

Power to the Skill Monkies

That's an awful lot of trouble, just to get him to smash casters.

A simple dare might have been sufficient.


DARE AM WORK FINE. HECK, BARBARIAN AM ONLY REALLY SMASH CASTYS IF THEY AM IN BARBARIAN WAY. OR IF BARBARIAN AM GET BORED.

OR ON FIREDAYS. ALWAYS ON FIREDAY.


I also do not walk into poison oak like a wizard did but there was a halfing rouge that did not know better.


Just get AM BARBARIAN to follow you into a small basement. All his sunder damage relies on charging with a lance, which he can't do on foot. Put him in a narrow passageway against a lame gnomish oracle of battle with a bard behind her backing her up with performance, haste, and displacement while AM BARBARIAN's buddies, being two fighters and another barbarian, can't do anything to help him because he provides cover to the person he's fighting.


Atarlost wrote:
haste, and displacement while AM BARBARIAN's buddies, being two fighters and another barbarian, can't do anything to help him because he provides cover to the person he's fighting.

But not total cover. Which is sadly precisely why the bard gets peppered with a thousand arrows before the end of the first round. And then the spell sunders hit.


I just imagined a claustrophobic barbarian.


TarkXT wrote:
Atarlost wrote:
haste, and displacement while AM BARBARIAN's buddies, being two fighters and another barbarian, can't do anything to help him because he provides cover to the person he's fighting.
But not total cover. Which is sadly precisely why the bard gets peppered with a thousand arrows before the end of the first round. And then the spell sunders hit.

But then again that probably makes little difference as he'll just sunder the structure you're in anyway.


TarkXT wrote:
TarkXT wrote:
Atarlost wrote:
haste, and displacement while AM BARBARIAN's buddies, being two fighters and another barbarian, can't do anything to help him because he provides cover to the person he's fighting.
But not total cover. Which is sadly precisely why the bard gets peppered with a thousand arrows before the end of the first round. And then the spell sunders hit.
But then again that probably makes little difference as he'll just sunder the structure you're in anyway.

hardness isn't a structure's only defense. hit points matter too.


Atarlost wrote:
Just get AM BARBARIAN to follow you into a small basement. All his sunder damage relies on charging with a lance, which he can't do on foot. Put him in a narrow passageway against a lame gnomish oracle of battle with a bard behind her backing her up with performance, haste, and displacement while AM BARBARIAN's buddies, being two fighters and another barbarian, can't do anything to help him because he provides cover to the person he's fighting.

We say this three rounds fast: Spell sunder, Spell sunder, Spell sunder. No more casty tricks left. Now your in close quarters with a raging barbarian. Any last words.

I also find it funny that people assume that if AM BARBARIAN was not on his batty bat charging that he would still be lugging around the lance in a a tight hallway. He has d8 claws and a d4 bite attack! That's 3 attacks at full BAB every round if he can not use the lance of casty skewering.

That's another weakness that barbarians tighty up well. They still threaten adjacent squares when wielding a reach weapon because of the natural attacks they can gain (mainly the bite as you don't need to ungrip your weapon every round).

As for the FIGHTY allies with bows. They are frickin fighters with feats galore. They grab improved precise shot and pretend hes not standing in the door way.


Really...As a caster your best bet is still:

You win initiative: As much as AM BARBARIAN can claim to change reality through awesomeness. A divination spec'ed wizard has a 40 something initiative always.

Cast time stop: Buff up and then on last round of time stop cast gate.
Bring in a CR20 creature that you have built up a good relationship with (No risk of creature hating you this way and since its CR is your level you have control).

Have the barbarian dish it out with your pal and provide support from a safe distance.

More than likely the wizard will win this one. There is no cheese involved, just pure and efficient usage of the 2 most powerful lvl 9 wizard spells in the game. Other than that I think the wizard going up against the barbarian one on one is just suicidal. The barbarians saves are strong enough to survive the first round of combat and if you don't have something strong enough to stand in his way you will on the wrong end of a BATTY BAT lance charge.

Concidering, the number of spell combos at a wizards disposal, the fact that he has to resort to such powerful measures says something about how good a high lvl barbarian can be.
Can anyone think of another caster opening round that could take out a well prepared barbarian?


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BARBARIAN DOUBLE-DOG DARE SQUISHY TO NAME AN 20 CR MONSTER CAN TAKE BARBARIAN IN MELEE.

AM NO MONSTER.

IF MONSTER AM TELEPORTY AWAY AND ATTACK FROM DISTANCE, AM SUDDENLY FREE BEELINE TO CHARGE CASTY.

STRATEGY AM SOUND, BUT BARBARIAN AM SOUNDER.

BUILDING STRATEGY AM ALSO SOUND, EXCEPT BARBARIAN AM HAVING BONUS EQUAL TO HALF CLASS LEVEL TO PROFESSION ENGINEER. AM GETTING ENGINEERING DEGREE FROM LOCAL COMMUNITY COLLEGE.

WHAT AM DAMAGE FROM COLLAPSING STRUCTURE AGAIN?


Lab_Rat wrote:

Really...As a caster your best bet is still:

You win initiative: As much as AM BARBARIAN can claim to change reality through awesomeness. A divination spec'ed wizard has a 40 something initiative always.

Cast time stop: Buff up and then on last round of time stop cast gate.
Bring in a CR20 creature that you have built up a good relationship with (No risk of creature hating you this way and since its CR is your level you have control).

Have the barbarian dish it out with your pal and provide support from a safe distance.

More than likely the wizard will win this one. There is no cheese involved, just pure and efficient usage of the 2 most powerful lvl 9 wizard spells in the game. Other than that I think the wizard going up against the barbarian one on one is just suicidal. The barbarians saves are strong enough to survive the first round of combat and if you don't have something strong enough to stand in his way you will on the wrong end of a BATTY BAT lance charge.

Concidering, the number of spell combos at a wizards disposal, the fact that he has to resort to such powerful measures says something about how good a high lvl barbarian can be.

Can anyone think of another caster opening round that could take out a well prepared barbarian?

Not sure gate works while time stop is active,as you affect another creature.Only spell you can cast while in time stop that is affecting others is delayed blast fireball if i am correct.

Wizard can start fight with time stop,and while in time stop 4xempowered delayed blast fireball for 120d6 dmg,which can be pretty hard to take.Also all clever wizards will have contigancy-dimension door.So when you charge them,they just go away and leave you there alone,hitting air.

But all those things are so realtive,and this isnt 1vs1 game.For every class combination you have counter class combination etc.That is game balance.And that is reason why i never had issues with C-M D.You can mostly find solution for everyone,and everyone can mostly find solution for you.And it goes round and around.And i am happy with that.


And we get to the crux of the Martial/Caster Disparity AND the BARBARIAN/NOT BARBARIAN DESTRUCITY.

SOME Casters/Not Barbarians can be awesome with planning, initiative and prep time to shape the field in order to stack the odds in their favor and win.

BARBARIANS (and SOME other 3/4Caster/Melees) are just freakiing awesome straight away, no prep time and will turn enemies into PINK MIST. Inside of 2 rounds. With thier shirt off.


STR Ranger wrote:
With thier shirt off.

It's not his fault that AM BARBARIAN's mother relies on slave labor to knit sweaters for him and they're typically very itchy.


Kind of a side thing, but I thought I'd post it here and the caster lovers would eagerly flame me to death if I was wrong:

Isn't the most reliable debuff in the game until around level 10 or so, a Fighter with a net? Do casters have any kind of save-or-suck type spells that can compete in terms of simple reliability? Full base attack class with feats and what-not making a touch attack is almost an auto-confirm. It has 10 foot range, that can become 10 foot reach if you really want to spend a feat on it, so from the front row you can access just about everybody on the first turn, unless they're flying. The debuff's effects impede offense, defense, movement, and spellcasting, so almost any BBEG that isn't bigger than large, will suffer from it. And as a side perk, BBEG is softened up against reflex saves. So about the only folks that this near-auto-confirming debuff isn't useful against are flying casters outdoors, and creatures that are bigger than large. And there's no duration on the damn thing, so either he learns to live with the penalties indefinitely, or BBEG loses a turn attacking a net. This seems like an almost a sure fire way to lower an encounter's difficulty by about 1 to 2 CRs.

Now, I haven't seen a big Net fan-club on the boards, so I'm sure I'm just wrong about how useful it is. So please tell me why this isn't the first thing people bring up to counter the argument "the only meaningful way fighters have of solving problems is by dealing damage".

The Exchange

Andy Ferguson wrote:
cp wrote:

Well, I have not extrapolated to L20.

But here is what I would do at leve1 11 vs Am Barbarian.

Quickened Dazing Magic missil vs Bat and 1 vs barb as well. DC 26 will save or be dazed.

So at 11th level you can't cast a 8th level spell(1st lvl spell, +3 for Dazing, +4 for quicken), so one assumes you are using a metamagic rod. You can only apply one rod to a spell, so if you use a Rod of quicken on the 4th level spell, you can in fact cast a quicken dazing magic missile. However a Rod of quicken will run you 75.5K, WLB at 11 is 82k. If instead you quicken, and use a rod of daze you are only spending 54k, still more then half your wealth by level.

Also how are you getting a save of 26? It's a first level spell. I'd be interested in the math on that.

cp wrote:
If that doesn't work, follow up with dc 29 Refex Dazing snapdragon Fireworks.

If it doesn't work, he hits you, with pounce, and a lance. You're a pink mist.

Why is it that people either expect it to be taken on faith that casters are gods, or they give examples that are so flawed as to appear willfully deceitful?

Willingly deceitful eh?

Magical lineage: Magic Missile
Qadira Trait: Eastern Mysteries

Diviner, Level 11
Int 20 +2 stat inc + 6 headband

Feats:
Spell Focus
GSF
Elemental Focus
GEF
Elemental Spell
Improved Familiar
Heighten Spell
Quicken Spell

Quickened + SnapDragon = 5rd level Heightened + Dazing rod + Eastern mysteries

DC= 10 + 5+ 4 (spell focus, elemental spell focus etc) + 9 (int) + 2 eastern = 30 Reflex

Magic Missile + elemental spell + magical lineage + dazing rod DC=10 +6 +4 +9 = dc 29 will save.+heightened

Oops guess I did miscalculate.. the DC is higher than originally promised. 1 missile on the barbarian - the rest on the dire bat. And the DC could be higher if I elected to blow 2 6th level spells rather than a 5/6

Really, I have no idea how you think he will then pummel me into a red mist. The chance of both the barbarian saving AND His mount saving are.. very very poor. And even if so the mount should be dead from 2 rounds of magic missiles. Leaving the barbarian falling to his death.

And if the first daze sticks, you are free to use a wave of fatigue
or lantern archons, or hell, arcane discoveries and bring in a true named glabrezu..., dim door away... He will after all be dazed for 5 or 6 rounds....

equipment

Metamagic Rod of Dazing
+6 Intellect.
Dusty Rose Ioun Stone
+dex equipment
Wand of Summon Monster x


cp wrote:

Willingly deceitful eh?

The headband and the rod run you more then wealth by level, never mind the extra gear you want.

Your math on snapdragon is off. If you heighten it to 2nd level, then quicken it taking it to 6th level, the save dc is still as a second level spell.

2 (level) + 4 (feats) +9 (artificially high int) +2 (trait) = 27. Which is really high, it's a shame that affording the metamagic rod is beyond a character of that level.

There are issues on the magic missile as well, mostly the fact that you suggested a quickened magic missile and now have realized that's not as option.

You initiative isn't going to be particularly good, so you don't have a very good chance of even going first.

You could make a character who cast a dazing snap dragon without the rod, and the gear that costs a ton,. The big problem is dazing isn't that scary of an effect, you're not helpless, and you take no penalties. If you had someone with you, who could do direct damage, it would be worthwhile, but a wizard on his own isn't getting it done.

The Exchange

Andy Ferguson wrote:
cp wrote:


Willingly deceitful eh?
The headband and the rod run you more then wealth by level, never mind the extra gear you want.

This was a quick one-off to prove a possibility. Make the guy a human and choose Craft Wondrous item, and you are comfortably below your gold cap.

Change the DC's by 2, and make it a lesser rod of dazing.
Use Arcane object, and cut the cost of one item in half.
Quote:


Your math on snapdragon is off. If you heighten it to 2nd level, then quicken it taking it to 6th level, the save dc is still as a second level spell.

3.5 said that you can add metamagic feats in any order you choose. never addressed in pathfinder.

Suppose you quicken Snapdragon with magical lineage, it becomes a 4th level spell. If you then use a 5th level spell slot, it becomes a *5th* level spell for the purposes of save. Read the Heighten Spell metamagic feat.
Quote:


There are issues on the magic missile as well, mostly the fact that you suggested a quickened magic missile and now have realized that's not as option.

I was giving an example. If you quicken the magic missile and use magical lineage on it, it works out the same, the totals DC's work out.

Quote:


You initiative isn't going to be particularly good, so you don't have a very good chance of even going first.

+5 from diviner, +4 from improved init. +1 from ioun stone (crafted), +3 from dex (+4 if you choose elf); +2 from +4 dex boosting item (which you crafted).

You could also choose or have : +4 from compos familiar; possible +5 from anticipate; If you choose the compso familiar, you can choose the familiar evolution to give it a tentacle (to allow the umd I mentioned previously). Or if you wish you can drop the Eastern mysteries for the reactionary trait. (And still be within my range on DC's).

So, roughly speaking, +15 to +20 Init modifier. Which, yes, I do think this gives you a *very* good chance of going first.

Quote:

You could make a character who cast a dazing snap dragon without the rod, and the gear that costs a ton,. The big problem is dazing isn't that scary of an effect, you're not helpless, and you take no penalties. If you had someone with you, who could do direct damage, it would be worthwhile, but a wizard on his own isn't getting it done.

Funny, that no one thinks dazing is strong. Personally, I think taking no action for 5-6 rounds (FROM ONE SPELL) *is* kind of important. And if I do nothing but have my familiar summon lantern archons (18 in 5 rounds) - thats what 36 touch attaks a round at that point doing a d6 no dr?

Or alternately, skip the familiar and take Arcane Discoveries - and let the Glabrezu go to town on your non-acting barbarian.

The Exchange

Oh, and I will *happily* take the caster side of the 4:4 battle.


cp wrote:
Oh, and I will *happily* take the caster side of the 4:4 battle.

Everyone have right to make choice...but are they right ones,thats another question:)


cp wrote:


This was a quick one-off to prove a possibility. Make the guy a human and choose Craft Wondrous item, and you are comfortably below your gold cap.
Change the DC's by 2, and make it a lesser rod of dazing.
Use Arcane object, and cut the cost of one item in half.

But in your example you didn't do any of those things. If you don't like someone pointing out that your example is wrong, try a little harder to make it right. I'm not going to make your weak example for you.

cp wrote:


3.5 said that you can add metamagic feats in any order you choose. never addressed in pathfinder.
Suppose you quicken Snapdragon with magical lineage, it becomes a 4th level spell. If you then use a 5th level spell slot, it becomes a *5th* level spell for the purposes of save. Read the Heighten Spell metamagic feat.

Clearly you're not being willingly deceitful. Also this won't work with your lesser metamagic rod.

cp wrote:


I was giving an example. If you quicken the magic missile and use magical lineage on it, it works out the same, the totals DC's work out.

Your example was wrong. This example is also wrong.

cp wrote:

+5 from diviner, +4 from improved init. +1 from ioun stone (crafted), +3 from dex (+4 if you choose elf); +2 from +4 dex boosting item (which you crafted).

You could also choose or have : +4 from compos familiar; possible +5 from anticipate; If you choose the compso familiar, you can choose the familiar evolution to give it a tentacle (to allow the umd I mentioned previously). Or if you wish you can drop the Eastern mysteries for the reactionary trait. (And still be within my range on DC's).

So, roughly speaking, +15 to +20 Init modifier. Which, yes, I do think this gives you a *very* good chance of going first.

You listed your feats, you didn't have improved init listed, or evolved familiar.

You also have improved familiar listed, of which a Compsognathus isn't a choice.
How are you starting with a 16 dex and a 20 int? What kind of point buy allows that?

I assume by anticipate you mean the spell anticipate peril, the spell that lasts a minute per caster level?

cp wrote:

Funny, that no one thinks dazing is strong. Personally, I think taking no action for 5-6 rounds (FROM ONE SPELL) *is* kind of important. And if I do nothing but have my familiar summon lantern archons (18 in 5 rounds) - thats what 36 touch attacks a round at that point doing a d6 no dr?

Or alternately, skip the familiar and take Arcane Discoveries - and let the Glabrezu go to town on your non-acting barbarian.

But you haven't actually managed to land the spell, so in theory dazing someone is 'supa-cool', you just need to figure out a way to do it.


It's a good thing that AM BARBARIAN carries a brooch of shielding regardless.


AND AM HAVING FIRE RESISTANCE INTRINSIC.

FOR RECORD, ARGUMENT AM SMASH ITSELF. BARBARIAN AM NOT NEED TO ARGUE POINT. MONKEY GUY ALREADY DO.

SORRY, AM BARBARIAN NOT-BARBARIAN DESTRUCITY. CASTY AM ON WRONG SIDE OF DESTRUCITY.

The Exchange

Andy Ferguson wrote:


But in your example you didn't do any of those things. If you don't like someone pointing out that your example is wrong, try a little harder to make it right. I'm not going to make your weak example for you.

My example was a dc26 and dc29 will and reflex saves, which you said willful deceit. I have demonstrated ways to get DC 28 and DC 30 (you can actually get DC 31), using a metamagic rod of dazing (which was the price you quoted of 54K.

Quote:

You listed your feats, you didn't have improved init listed, or evolved familiar.

You also have improved familiar listed, of which a Compsognathus isn't a choice.

And I didn't use the full number of feats available, either.

Merely showing a variety of ways to achieve the desired outcome. Which one you choose is up to you. If you choose evolved familiar you don't need improved familiar.

I'm not doing a rigorous build out - just defending the notion that these kinds of DCs are not impossible nor offered in bad faith. And I think it a perfectly viable counter to a L11 Barb.

As for anticipate peril: Contingency: start of combat.

Quote:
How are you starting with a 16 dex...

Well, I don't have the book in front of me, but doesn't a 7 str, 7 wis, and 7 charisma work just fine on a 20 pt buy?

Quote:
Tark: fortunately AM Barbarian has a Brooch of shielding.

Sure. But his bat doesn't. = ) And it really doesn't matter its just a perception check to notice it. Waste the slot, I'll substitute a fireball, or scorching ray

And fire resistance isn't going to help you versus the magic missiles. No wizard is going to be silly enough to make it entirely fire... The damage will be half force, half fire. Just enough to qualify for the heightened DC's.

And sure - is the wizard fragile? Absolutely. Is this a great barbarian build: Absolutely. But cmon now .. give some wizardly love.

Also, it may well not be game over if I lose initiative. Emergeancy Force Sphere, Blink, Mirror Image, and Incorporeal give me a pretty good shot to surve your pounce, even if you start in range. At which point we are back to.. exactly how are you going to make that DC 30 reflex save?

Dark Archive

20 Int 16 Dex 14 Con 7 rest is a perfectly well min-maxed PFS Mage that wants to cast rays (technically i'd go 18 Dex-12 con and be an elf most of the time).

I do admit those non-crosstrainned magic types seem to be unlikeable and over-focused. But where was I? Ah yes, perpetually casting summon monster 8 and 9 to drop hoardes of spells onto the arguing barbarian and fighters while I fly around. Are melee types SERIOUSLY trying to play the level 20 game? For shame. I think even the bard outdoes you by that point.


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Dark Archive

Ah, my apologies you don't know we're playing the level 20 game. I've been standard-action summoning since level 1 (for mins/lvl), I am a summoner you know. And honestly, in the level 20 game it would be silly if I didn't have a few wands of quicken, they are terribly handy. And by this point I would make Summon Monster 8 my preferred spell and quicken it without raising the caster level.

For what it's worth, the cleric plays the standard summon game with summons of the same alignment. And even if you are +200 to all saves you'll roll a 1 eventually dealing with my hoardes. Good luck!


cp wrote:


My example was a dc26 and dc29 will and reflex saves, which you said willful deceit. I have demonstrated ways to get DC 28 and DC 30 (you can actually get DC 31), using a metamagic rod of dazing (which was the price you quoted of 54K.

Your example included a quickened dazing magic missle at dc 26, you've failed to show that. You've suggested that you can double dip on heighten to reach the dc on snapdragon, which doesn't work.

cp wrote:

And I didn't use the full number of feats available, either.

Merely showing a variety of ways to achieve the desired outcome. Which one you choose is up to you. If you choose evolved familiar you don't need improved familiar.

I'm not doing a rigorous build out - just defending the notion that these kinds of DCs are not impossible nor offered in bad faith. And I think it a perfectly viable counter to a L11 Barb.

Then try showing the correct number of feats. Try not misreading feats. Try playing within wealth by level. Again, I'm not proving your weak example for you.

The Exchange

I do agree that wizards (and summoners) take the most rules knowledge to play well. Its also harder, I think, to play a wizard well.

When doing your spell build out, you have to consider: what have the clues led us to expect we will face? Do I have adequate coverage on all three types of saves? Do I have options to handle flying creatures; invisible; mind immune (swarms, undead, constructs).

Do I have adequate utility spells?

Barbarians are great. But even something as simple as 4 archons flying overhead - the party of 4 barbs will turn to the wizard to solve even if they have dire bats.

Archons - with perfect flight .. just attack and fly up. Direbats can never catch them. And sure.. the downing 2000 hps worth of barbarians + their CLW would take most of a week. But the outcome isn't ever seriously in doubt.....

And wizards, with poor saves, and fragile hitpoints are hard to make survive- in my area very few people play wizards.


Thalin wrote:

Ah, my apologies you don't know we're playing the level 20 game. I've been standard-action summoning since level 1 (for mins/lvl), I am a summoner you know. And honestly, in the level 20 game it would be silly if I didn't have a few wands of quicken, they are terribly handy. And by this point I would make Summon Monster 8 my preferred spell and quicken it without raising the caster level.

For what it's worth, the cleric plays the standard summon game with summons of the same alignment. And even if you are +200 to all saves you'll roll a 1 eventually dealing with my hoardes. Good luck!

You mean spell perfection. Which would allow you to apply it to SM VII, which is a 5th level spell, 9th with quicken(ignored from spell perfection). Which would allow you to summon 1d3+1(another feat) CR 7 creatures, or quicken summon one CR 10 creature. SM IX summons CR 13 creatures. None of which are very good at lvl 20. I also assume you mean rods of quicken, not wands, which will totally increase the loot that the barbarian gets from your corpse.


cp wrote:
I do agree that wizards (and summoners) take the most rules knowledge to play well. Its also harder, I think, to play a wizard well.

Clearly.

cp wrote:

Barbarians are great. But even something as simple as 4 archons flying overhead - the party of 4 barbs will turn to the wizard to solve even if they have dire bats.

Archons - with perfect flight .. just attack and fly up. Direbats can never catch them. And sure.. the downing 2000 hps worth of barbarians + their CLW would take most of a week. But the outcome isn't ever seriously in doubt.....

The barbarian throws a dagger, kills an archron. The range of lantern archons blasts is 30 ft.

The Exchange

Quote:

You've suggested that you can double dip on heighten to reach the dc on snapdragon, which doesn't work.

Instead of baldly asserting that it doesn't work, would you care to demonstrate? Here's the text of Heighten spell

Benefit: A heightened spell has a higher spell level than normal (up to a maximum of 9th level). Unlike other metamagic feats, Heighten Spell actually increases the effective level of the spell that it modifies. All effects dependent on spell level (such as saving throw DCs and ability to penetrate a lesser globe of invulnerability) are calculated according to the heightened level.

Level Increase: The heightened spell is as difficult to prepare and cast as a spell of its effective level.

Making this *real* simple:

Snap + dazing + Heighten to 6th

DC = 10 + 6 + 4 +9 +2 = DC 31 Reflex save.


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BARBARIAN NOT TOO GOOD AT MATHS, BUT AM PRETTY SURE HEIGHTEN SPELL TO 6TH PLUS LEVELS DAZING AM SAME AS DAZING PLUS HEIGHTEN TO 6TH.

CASTY AM TRYING TO ARGUE 1+X+Y AND 1+Y+X AM DIFFERENT RESULTS.

ENGINEERING CLASS AM DISAGREE.


cp wrote:
Quote:

You've suggested that you can double dip on heighten to reach the dc on snapdragon, which doesn't work.

Instead of baldly asserting that it doesn't work, would you care to demonstrate? Here's the text of Heighten spell

Benefit: A heightened spell has a higher spell level than normal (up to a maximum of 9th level). Unlike other metamagic feats, Heighten Spell actually increases the effective level of the spell that it modifies. All effects dependent on spell level (such as saving throw DCs and ability to penetrate a lesser globe of invulnerability) are calculated according to the heightened level.

Level Increase: The heightened spell is as difficult to prepare and cast as a spell of its effective level.

Making this *real* simple:

Snap + dazing + Heighten to 6th

DC = 10 + 6 + 4 +9 +2 = DC 31 Reflex save.

You have a first level spell, apply dazing to it, it now takes up a 4th level slot, it's effective spell level is 1( for saving throw DCs and ability to penetrate a lesser globe of invulnerability)

You apply heighten spell to bring it up two levels, to 6th. It takes up a 6th level slot, it's was heightened 2 spell levels, increasing it's effective spell level to 3rd( for saving throw DCs and ability to penetrate a lesser globe of invulnerability).

Liberty's Edge

Leongorance wrote:
paladin giving fighter saves(like bestow grace) so he save extremely easily

I think you need to read up on Bestow Grace, as that will only work if your fighter has a very high Charisma.

"When you touch the subject, you grant that creature a sacred bonus to its saving throw equal to its Charisma bonus (if any) on all saving throws." - APG p.205

Dark Archive

Useless? Summoning armies of save-or-sucks is hardly useless... you can get d4+1 SM VII. Then start dropping the insanity saves, yes the DC is 15, but they do it 3 times and you can keep getting d4+1 of them.

We can play the saving throw game, but you'll insist your 20th level fighter somehow has +40 to all saves, so I just go for the odds of a 1 being rolled before you can get to me.


Thalin wrote:
Useless? Summoning armies of save-or-sucks is hardly useless...

It is if you're spending a full round to get them. That's a full round of doing nothing but making waggly fingers for more peons. This problem is solved by SMASH he can SMASH while running towards you he can SMASH while running away most importantly he can SMASH while you ahve your noodly arms at him to summon more lights.

I think what's ultimately amusing to me is people are making very specific builds to beat AM BARBARIAN rather than the other way around. That to me speaks volumes.

Dark Archive

Well, the oaf is amusingly loud, and I'm built to control the world, not beat him. I do it happinstantially; I have plenty of spells to beat him, but for every one he can try to theorize why he can outfly fly-perfect, gain +40 to will saves, and still get a straight action full charge line. So my solution is the hoardes, simple, unbeatable over time, and plenty of warm flesh to block chargelines. At lower levels I'd just have my Eidilon eat him or drop him in tentacles or build up stone walls.

Sadly, in this forum, loudest and most amusing tends to get attention. In the end the poor melees can't actually keep up with our pets for damage output, dunno why they stay around.


Thalin wrote:
Well, the oaf is amusingly loud, and I'm built to control the world, not beat him. I do it happinstantially; I have plenty of spells to beat him, but for every one he can try to theorize why he can outfly fly-perfect, gain +40 to will saves, and still get a straight action full charge line. So my solution is the hoardes, simple, unbeatable over time, and plenty of warm flesh to block chargelines. At lower levels I'd just have my Eidilon eat him or drop him in tentacles or build up stone walls.

We've pointed out how your hordes aren't actually scary. The barbarian is riding a flying mount. You either have a terrible eldion, or you can only have one standard action summon out at a time. Also no one needs a +40 to saves, they just need a +14. 6 for a bad save, 5 more for a +5 cloak gives 11, before stats.

Thalin wrote:
Sadly, in this forum, loudest and most amusing tends to get attention. In the end the poor melees can't actually keep up with our pets for damage output, dunno why they stay around.

Show a pet that can outdamage a barbarian and isn't made of tissue paper? I'm eagerly awaiting the errors.


PROBABLY BECAUSE PETS AM CLOSE RANGE, AND BARBARIAN AM CHARGE EASY FROM OUTSIDE CLOSE RANGE.

BIGGER QUESTION AM WHAT CASTY DO AFTER AM OUT OF SUMMONS. TENTACLES AM NOT ABLE TO GRAPPLE NON-CRAPPY BARBARIAN.


Thalin wrote:
In the end the poor melees can't actually keep up with our pets for damage output, dunno why they stay around.

Because they are funny.

Because without them people doubt you would have made it past first level.

Because they have AM BARBARIAN on their side.


Thalin wrote:

Well, the oaf is amusingly loud, and I'm built to control the world, not beat him. I do it happinstantially; I have plenty of spells to beat him, but for every one he can try to theorize why he can outfly fly-perfect, gain +40 to will saves, and still get a straight action full charge line. So my solution is the hoardes, simple, unbeatable over time, and plenty of warm flesh to block chargelines. At lower levels I'd just have my Eidilon eat him or drop him in tentacles or build up stone walls.

Sadly, in this forum, loudest and most amusing tends to get attention. In the end the poor melees can't actually keep up with our pets for damage output, dunno why they stay around.

You apparently joined this battle late.

Nope...not a +40 will save. My level 20 barbarian has a +43 Fort a +29 reflex and a +31 will save with a reroll. Barbarians are no slouches on the saves.

Wait a minute...your a summoner. You actually think your weak DC spells will effect a barbarian. As for your walls and tentacles.....Spell Sunder. You can not wall in the barbarian. He can freaking sunder a prismatic wall/sphere spell and not even break a sweat.


ALSO RIDE BY ATTACK AM FOILING PLAN OF BLOCKING CHARGE LANES.

CASTY AM SMART, BARBARIAN LEAVE TO CASTY TO SEE WHY.


@Lab_rat

Can you show me your save breakdown, please. I'd like to steal some boosts for my Invulnerable Rager.

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