Caster-Martial Disparity Battleground - No Crying.


Pathfinder First Edition General Discussion

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TOZ wrote:
Lab_Rat wrote:
Only barbarians can talk in all caps and murder English syntax at the same time.
Racist.

Isn't it more of a Classist?

Besides it was in our contract...when they decided that we could now read we had to argue for at least legal rights to butcher any language. We had to keep some flavor for our class.


Lab_Rat wrote:
AM PALADIN wrote:
PALADIN AM NOT SEEING DIS-THINGY. PALADIN AM SMITE EVIL THAT GET CLOSE, WIZARD AM SMITE EVIL THAT NOT GET CLOSE. WIZARD AM PALADIN TEAMMATE.
-1 for pretending to be a barbarian. Only barbarians can talk in all caps and murder English syntax at the same time. Find your own voice over...may I suggest something like Judge Dread...hes got a nice paladin like zeal to him.

Don't most paladins have 7 int? It's why they're called Lawful Stupid after all.


Diego Rossi wrote:

But then you have to acknowledge that those talents are Supernatural (the game term) and subject to all the relevant rules.

They don't work in a anti magic area, generally they have a limitation to the number or frequency of their uses and so on.

With that caveat, why not?

Umm no, because Eartdawn is it's own system not a d20. Yet due to its construction lacks much of the C-M D. Therefore should be looked to as an example of how to construct a game both setting and mechanically with less of this issue. To port it over would actually be more akin to a collection of extraordinary abilities, as well as feats, and class features some of which will work in AMF (two weapon fighting for instance is an Earthdawn talent) some of which would not.


It's our shtick and if he doesn't like it us barbarians can meet you paladins in an anti-magic field of our choosing.

Dark Archive

Whereas most barbarians have a decent Int because they don't want to lose their 4 skill points; the Pally has 7 because they can.

But who cares about all that? The Druid and I, the summoner, will entangle you down, and haste up our pets to eat you. That's right. Us casters even do melee better. So take that, Mr. brute and lawful-stupid.


Thalin wrote:

Whereas most barbarians have a decent Int because they don't want to lose their 4 skill points; the Pally has 7 because they can.

But who cares about all that? The Druid and I, the summoner, will entangle you down, and haste up our pets to eat you. That's right. Us casters even do melee better. So take that, Mr. brute and lawful-stupid.

druids and summoner cant just be in the caster team because of a few spells when you are just as responsible to forth some DPR like Mr. brute and lawful-stupid. you sir are middle ground.

Dark Archive

Oh please. I'm the best buffer in the game, and can
make random creatures appear far more often than regular casters. You want battlefield control? Give me a lesser widen wand; I'll make a Black Tentacles the other casters would dream of.

Meanwhile the Druid keeps our pets happy with HP and helps me keep the battlefield controlled.

Just because we can outcast the wizards and outfight the melees... Well, if we're our own team, we're one heck of a team. And I'm loveable to boot.


Thalin wrote:

Whereas most barbarians have a decent Int because they don't want to lose their 4 skill points; the Pally has 7 because they can.

But who cares about all that? The Druid and I, the summoner, will entangle you down, and haste up our pets to eat you. That's right. Us casters even do melee better. So take that, Mr. brute and lawful-stupid.

What's that? The ranger can't hear you over the screaming paladin adn barbarian. Allow me to respond with a full attack from max range.


Thalin wrote:

Oh please. I'm the best buffer in the game, and can

make random creatures appear far more often than regular casters. You want battlefield control? Give me a lesser widen wand; I'll make a Black Tentacles the other casters would dream of.

Meanwhile the Druid keeps our pets happy with HP and helps me keep the battlefield controlled.

Just because we can outcast the wizards and outfight the melees... Well, if we're our own team, we're one heck of a team. And I'm loveable to boot.

wecome to the grey side we have cake and eat it too


Thalin wrote:

Oh please. I'm the best buffer in the game, and can

make random creatures appear far more often than regular casters. You want battlefield control? Give me a lesser widen wand; I'll make a Black Tentacles the other casters would dream of.

Sigh....since Trinam is not here to barbarian up...I will be right back.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
Dragonsong wrote:
Diego Rossi wrote:

But then you have to acknowledge that those talents are Supernatural (the game term) and subject to all the relevant rules.

They don't work in a anti magic area, generally they have a limitation to the number or frequency of their uses and so on.

With that caveat, why not?

Umm no, because Eartdawn is it's own system not a d20. Yet due to its construction lacks much of the C-M D. Therefore should be looked to as an example of how to construct a game both setting and mechanically with less of this issue. To port it over would actually be more akin to a collection of extraordinary abilities, as well as feats, and class features some of which will work in AMF (two weapon fighting for instance is an Earthdawn talent) some of which would not.

Earthdawn talents are magic. You don't use lockpics, you create them from your will and use then to open a lock. You walk above the ground avoiding the problems linked to difficult terrain and so on.

Skill can substitute for them but are way less efficient, with a higher point cost and more limitations.
If you want to port that kind of abilities or develop something on that vein they are supernatural, not exceptional.

The monk, with its mix of Su and Ex abilities, is the class most similar to what a "converted" Earthdawn Discipline would be.


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LazarX wrote:
Mok wrote:
LazarX wrote:


But they do. What a 20th level Fighter or Ranger can do at their capstone is nothing short of epic compared to that of the common man. All they need to do is get one solid hit on that mage... and he's toast.

Well, with that particular example, it's all the same. A 1st level high strength power attacking fighter is likewise going to drop a spellcaster in one round. That's kind of the problem is that the answer is still the greatsword, whether it is 1st or 20th level.

I don't quite understand what the problem is. If you're playing the Fighter, you're playing the Kirk, Hercules, or Lancelot where the answer IS the sword. That's the kind of character you are. If you want something in between Hercules and Merlin there are a whole bunch of other character types with varying levels of combat, skill, and magic use.

Right. And if the answer is the sword, the Fighter character is just fine. If the answer isn't the sword, the Wizard is doing great.

The problem is that if the answer is the sword, the Wizard is still doing great.

It's like Aquaman and Batman. Sure, Aquaman is rad underwater and he can talk to oceanic wildlife. But then there's Batman, speeding along in his Batmarine and carrying his Wayne Enterprises patented shark translator. And when they leave the water? Batman is the g+~~*~ned Batman. Aquaman has a trident that I guess maybe he can throw at people.


Scott Betts wrote:
It's like Aquaman and Batman.

Or Angel Summoner and BMX Bandit, for a less reverent example.


Maybe that's it. Martials have to take valueless stats like Dexterity and Constitution, while many casters have the enviable necessity of pumping up charisma, the most versatile stat.


Andy Ferguson wrote:
Maybe that's it. Martials have to take valueless stats like Dexterity and Constitution, while many casters have the enviable necessity of pumping up charisma, the most versatile stat.

If your point is that Cha is a low-value stat, I agree. But spontaneous casters ultimately can't match prepared ones anyway. A PF wizard can pump Int and dump pretty much EVERYTHING else, whereas martials have to keep up Str, Dex, Con, AND Wis (so as not to fail all their Will saves).


Kirth Gersen wrote:
If your point is that Cha is a low-value stat, I agree. But spontaneous casters ultimately can't match prepared ones anyway. A PF wizard can pump Int and dump pretty much EVERYTHING else, whereas martials have to keep up Str, Dex, Con, AND Wis (so as not to fail all their Will saves).

A Wizard certainly can dump constitution and wisdom, however they best be prepared to do a lot of crying and begging for there lives.

Wizards have to max out Int, or they risk being useless, a beatstick only needs decent physicals, which have the added bonus of upping there survivability.


Andy Ferguson wrote:
A Wizard certainly can dump constitution and wisdom, however they best be prepared to do a lot of crying and begging for there lives.

d6 HD, favored class, and Toughness feat, and I've got double the hp of my 3.5e cousin.

Andy Ferguson wrote:
Wizards have to max out Int, or they risk being useless, a beatstick only needs decent physicals, which have the added bonus of upping there survivability.

It's easier to max out Int than it is to max out Str, Dex, Con, and Wis. In fact, it's more than four times easier.


Andy Ferguson wrote:
A Wizard certainly can dump constitution and wisdom, however they best be prepared to do a lot of crying and begging for there lives.

Except not. Because he's a Wizard. And thus has access to any number of spells and magical protections which protect him from exactly the sort of thing you describe.

Oh, and he can buy all those magical protections because he has no need to waste his money on a magic weapon, magic armor, and magic shield in order to keep up with the math race.


Scott Betts wrote:
Andy Ferguson wrote:
A Wizard certainly can dump constitution and wisdom, however they best be prepared to do a lot of crying and begging for there lives.

Except not. Because he's a Wizard. And thus has access to any number of spells and magical protections which protect him from exactly the sort of thing you describe.

Oh, and he can buy all those magical protections because he has no need to waste his money on a magic weapon, magic armor, and magic shield in order to keep up with the math race.

Without examples these seem like odd statements.


Andy Ferguson wrote:
Without examples these seem like odd statements.

Fly/overland flight. Mirror image. Greater invisibility. Project image. Displacement. etc.


Wizards are most versatille,true.Combatwise,fighters>wizards.C-M D starts on very late lvls,15+.On early lvls(1-9),would always go for fighters.After that its pretty equall,untill high lvls pop-up.
But true,wizards are most versatille class in game,and if that is they way to judge which class is best,than they are.Thou who loves to own in combat for most of time,just take fighter imo.
All in all,i think its pretty balanced.For me and ppl i play with at least.

Leon,of the Dwarfus clan

Dark Archive

Why is the Wiz dumping Con anyway? My standard wiz has a 14 con in any buy over 10 points. Str and Chr are laughably dumpable; Wis and Dex hurt, but you can dump them. Con and Int and the Wiz is good to go; if he wants to be a face he has feats to burn and can pick up skill focuses.

Why does he have to max Int? Save or suck is great, but he can buff the pets, summon, or make rough terrain with no save. A wizard would do better at a 5-point buy than a fighter.

5-point wizard: Str - 7 Int - 18 Wis - 7 Dec - 12 Con - 14 Chr - 7 . So I guess even my 5-point buy wizard has an 18 casting stat and 14 Con


Leongorance wrote:


Wizards are most versatille,true.Combatwise,fighters>wizards.C-M D starts on very late lvls,15+.On early lvls(1-9),would always go for fighters.

Actually this is highly dependant on how those classes are built.

For example on the arcane side Grease and Color Spray can trivialise encounters. A fighter can take out maybe one or two guys around but thins like color spray end encounters on the first round. Ditto for lesser used spells like sound burst.

Granted these things are limited to a couple of times per day but most spellcasters fall back on ranged weapons at this point and still perform ok if not good.

Heck at this stage a cleric can seem almost godly. Runnign around in medium armor with his deity's favored weapon adn dropping spells and domain powers without ever casting a spell they got quite a bit of endurance.


Kirth Gersen wrote:
Andy Ferguson wrote:
Without examples these seem like odd statements.
Fly/overland flight. Mirror image. Greater invisibility. Project image. Displacement. etc.

If someone hits you with blindness at least flight will allow you to fly full speed into a wall. Mirror Image is nice, but doesn't help you against the poisoned pit trap you just fell into. Greater Invisibilty will mean that you blood totally wont stain the walls when the Giant Scorpion murders you. Project image doesn't even really protect you, seeing as you have to cast it in combat. And displacement, really? A 50% miss chance clearly isn't going to stop 100% of the damage.

So how is a wizard preventing all damage and having to make saves?


Andy Ferguson wrote:


So how is a wizard preventing all damage and having to make saves?

By using his massive intellect to convince the stupid fighter to go in front of him.


TarkXT wrote:


Actually this is highly dependant on how those classes are built.

For example on the arcane side Grease and Color Spray can trivialise encounters. A fighter can take out maybe one or two guys around but thins like color spray end encounters on the first round. Ditto for lesser used spells like sound burst.

Granted these things are limited to a couple of times per day but most spellcasters fall back on ranged weapons at this point and still perform ok if not good.

Heck at this stage a cleric can seem almost godly. Runnign around in medium armor with his deity's favored weapon adn dropping spells and domain powers without ever casting a spell they got quite a bit of endurance.

Color spray hits at most 7 squares, and you have to start the cone next to you. Grease only hits 4 squares. Soundburst stuns for one round. They are all cool spells, but the likelihood that are going to trivialize a challenging encounter is small. Clerics are no joke, but early on that has more to do with having a stick and some armor.


TarkXT wrote:
Andy Ferguson wrote:


So how is a wizard preventing all damage and having to make saves?
By using his massive intellect to convince the stupid fighter to go in front of him.

But diplomacy isn't on his list, so it's UNPOSSIBLE!!! Wizard should have been a sorcerer.

Wizards are crazy powerful, I just think sometimes people suggest silly things about them.


Andy Ferguson wrote:
If someone hits you with blindness at least flight will allow you to fly full speed into a wall...

... or just stop in place, and avoid ALL of the other examples of potential harm you noted. I should also point out that a wizard can reliably induce blindness at range when he hits 3rd level. The poor fighter needs to be 15th to do it at all, and even then it only activates on a crit.


Kirth Gersen wrote:
Andy Ferguson wrote:
If someone hits you with blindness at least flight will allow you to fly full speed into a wall...
... or just stop in place, and avoid ALL of the other examples of potential harm you noted. I should also point out that a wizard can reliably induce blindness at range when he hits 3rd level. The poor fighter needs to be 15th to do it at all, and even then it only activates on a crit.

So the wizard just became permanently blind, and his solution is stand still, maybe they will leave me alone?

Liberty's Edge

TL:DR

I don't want balanced classes to be honest. Look at WoW...Blizzard went out of their way to try and balance the classes and not only failed miserably, but took all the fun out of the game in the process.

Casters are going to be more powerful ranged, but if facing an appropriately "feated" fighter in melee range, they're probably SOL (or at least hurting pretty bad).

Besides, unless any one of the classes is broken to the point that it ceases to be playable due to lack of contribution, lack of fun, etc. then whether one will beat the other seems a moot point to me.


Leongorance wrote:
Wizards are most versatille,true.Combatwise,fighters>wizards.

I think where you say "combatwise" you actually mean "stabbingwithaswordwise". There is almost no scenario (save a fight in an anti-magic field) where I would not feel confident that a Wizard would outshine a Fighter.


Andy Ferguson wrote:
If someone hits you with blindness at least flight will allow you to fly full speed into a wall.

The Wizard isn't blind, because he's already invisible, flying, displaced, mirrored, save-buffed, and probably a handful of other protections.

Quote:
Mirror Image is nice, but doesn't help you against the poisoned pit trap you just fell into.

The Wizard doesn't fall into the pit trap, because he's flying.

Quote:
Greater Invisibilty will mean that you blood totally wont stain the walls when the Giant Scorpion murders you.

The Wizard wasn't murdered by the Giant Scorpion, because he's flying, displaced, invisible and mirrored.

Quote:
Project image doesn't even really protect you, seeing as you have to cast it in combat.

I see. So nothing done during combat can really protect anyone. That makes sense.

Good luck with that Fighter.

Quote:
And displacement, really? A 50% miss chance clearly isn't going to stop 100% of the damage.

Displacement is a last-resort spell, and should never actually come into play; the fact that it's there is just an extra added level of insurance that the Wizard doesn't really need, but is nice to have anyway.

Quote:
So how is a wizard preventing all damage and having to make saves?

As outlined above.

Now, remind me: how is the Fighter preventing all damage and having to make saves?


Xpltvdeleted wrote:

TL:DR

I don't want balanced classes to be honest. Look at WoW...Blizzard went out of their way to try and balance the classes and not only failed miserably, but took all the fun out of the game in the process.

Any argument that starts with "I mean, just look at WoW! Man, was that game ever a monumental failure," is dead on arrival.

When your argument is that balance kills games, probably best not to use one of the most popular video games ever published as an example of over-balancing.


Andy Ferguson wrote:
So the wizard just became permanently blind, and his solution is stand still, maybe they will leave me alone?

At least he made it to 15th level before it happened. Your fighter only got to 3rd. ;P


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I admitingly don't get the drive that casters should be better then fighters. That doesn't fit the sort of fiction, fantasy, and mythology I regularly enjoy. Be it Conan or the Romance of the Three Kingdoms, I'd always take awesome martial characters shoving a fist into the world at large over some nerd shouting a cooking recipe any day.


Also WoW is a hilarious example because, at least once you look past Vanilla, you have almost endless examples of fun and exciting fights with incredibly cool ideas and set points that allow almost all classes to contribute uniquely.


Andy Ferguson wrote:
TarkXT wrote:
Andy Ferguson wrote:


So how is a wizard preventing all damage and having to make saves?
By using his massive intellect to convince the stupid fighter to go in front of him.

But diplomacy isn't on his list, so it's UNPOSSIBLE!!! Wizard should have been a sorcerer.

I'd like to point out that diplomacy is not on the sorcerer's list either.

And Wizard Diplomacy consists of Dominate Monster.

Also I find it funny how you point out "it hits only seven squares" for color spray. Indeed it only destroys seven dudes to the fighters one or two a round.

The onyl real balancing point here is that the wizard can only do it a few times per day. Which is fine really, he still has school powers or ranged weapons to fall back on.


TarkXT wrote:
The onyl real balancing point here is that the wizard can only do it a few times per day. Which is fine really, he still has school powers or ranged weapons to fall back on.

And the three wands he bought instead of blowing his share of the loot on a +1 longsword.

Liberty's Edge

Scott Betts wrote:
Xpltvdeleted wrote:

TL:DR

I don't want balanced classes to be honest. Look at WoW...Blizzard went out of their way to try and balance the classes and not only failed miserably, but took all the fun out of the game in the process.

Any argument that starts with "I mean, just look at WoW! Man, was that game ever a monumental failure," is dead on arrival.

When your argument is that balance kills games, probably best not to use one of the most popular video games ever published as an example of over-balancing.

I was speaking from my personal experience, not as a critique of the game as a whole.

Also, maybe I didn't explain my line of thinking correctly...what I meant was more along the lines of this:

If every class can be just as effective as another, then what is the point having different classes? So while it may not have been "balance" I was referring to, but I don't know what else I'd call it...


Kirth Gersen wrote:
Andy Ferguson wrote:
So the wizard just became permanently blind, and his solution is stand still, maybe they will leave me alone?
At least he made it to 15th level before it happened. Your fighter only got to 3rd. ;P

Are you making the claim that no one ever casts spells at wizards?


Xpltvdeleted wrote:
If every class can be just as effective as another, then what is the point having different classes?

Ideally, they'd be effective at different things that are equally important in the game. Otherwise, I'd ask "if one class is more effective at everything that matters than another, why play the less-effective class?"


Scott Betts wrote:
Andy Ferguson wrote:
If someone hits you with blindness at least flight will allow you to fly full speed into a wall.

The Wizard isn't blind, because he's already invisible, flying, displaced, mirrored, save-buffed, and probably a handful of other protections.

The wizard is spending all day buffed with minute per caster level spells?


Andy Ferguson wrote:
Are you making the claim that no one ever casts spells at wizards?

I'm making the claim that starting with the standpoint that "a fighter is as good as a wizard," and defending that point by saying "a better wizard could beat your wizard" is sort of a non-starter. If the game is about wizards duking it out, why not just leave the fighters out of it altogether?


Andy Ferguson wrote:
Scott Betts wrote:
Andy Ferguson wrote:
If someone hits you with blindness at least flight will allow you to fly full speed into a wall.

The Wizard isn't blind, because he's already invisible, flying, displaced, mirrored, save-buffed, and probably a handful of other protections.

The wizard is spending all day buffed with minute per caster level spells?

No he buffed himself after scrying the area ahead of time before coercing his planar bound slaves to teleport him there.

The wizard is Batman.


Andy Ferguson wrote:
The wizard is spending all day buffed with minute per caster level spells?
Overland Flight wrote:
Duration 1 hour/level


But a Fighter is better than a Wizard
- at drinking
- at bar brawls
- at wearing heavy armor
- at swinging dangerous pieces of metal around
- at lifting heavy things
- at making Fort saves
- at not dying when he gets hit in the face with a hammer
- at listing combat feats
- at playing the traditional medieval action hero

Sure, a Wizard could temporarily beat a fighter at any or all of these things (at once), and probably get tossed out of any contest by doing so ("he used magic, CHEATERRRRRRR!"), but a fighter can do it for as long as his higher FORT save can let him.


TarkXT wrote:

Also I find it funny how you point out "it hits only seven squares" for color spray. Indeed it only destroys seven dudes to the fighters one or two a round.

The onyl real balancing point here is that the wizard can only do it a few times per day. Which is fine really, he still has school powers or ranged weapons to fall back on.

Color spray doesn't destroy seven dudes, it's one chance to catch some dudes in a small area. If you're lucky, you can knock them unconscious. If you aren't lucky, they beat you to death. And once they get 3 hit dice, are vermin or skellies, it's not much use at all.


Kirth Gersen wrote:
Andy Ferguson wrote:
Are you making the claim that no one ever casts spells at wizards?
I'm making the claim that starting with the standpoint that "a fighter is as good as a wizard," and defending that point by saying "a better wizard could beat your wizard" is sort of a non-starter. If the game is about wizards duking it out, why not just leave the fighters out of it altogether?

I don't think a fighter is as good as a wizard. I don't. You made the claim that a wizard could dump everything but int, and be ok. I'm pointing out that you are wrong.


Andy Ferguson wrote:
I don't think a fighter is as good as a wizard. I don't. You made the claim that a wizard could dump everything but int, and be ok. I'm pointing out that you are wrong.

Fact, that.

A Wizzy with no CON is like a gambler who bets everything, winnings and all, every hand. Just a matter of time...


TarkXT wrote:
Andy Ferguson wrote:
Scott Betts wrote:
Andy Ferguson wrote:
If someone hits you with blindness at least flight will allow you to fly full speed into a wall.

The Wizard isn't blind, because he's already invisible, flying, displaced, mirrored, save-buffed, and probably a handful of other protections.

The wizard is spending all day buffed with minute per caster level spells?

No he buffed himself after scrying the area ahead of time before coercing his planar bound slaves to teleport him there.

The wizard is Batman.

Scrying requires that have some knowledge of your subject. By saying he is Batman are you suggesting that he is simply a plot device?

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