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Why does every build, every guide I see puts a lot of importance on scimitars? What's so special about them that the magus needs? I'm guessing it's related to the high critical rate, but why would the magus pick this rather than, say, a longsword?
Why does every build, every guide I see puts a lot of importance on scimitars? What's so special about them that the magus needs? I'm guessing it's related to the high critical rate, but why would the magus pick this rather than, say, a longsword?
I don't understand your confusion. You said yourself you guess it's related to the high critical rate, and then you ask why someone would choose that over a weapon with less of a critical rate.
Magi can apply their weapon's critical threat range (not the multiplier) to their spells. So it would make sense for every magus (or at least most magi) to pick a weapon with the best critical range possible. 18-20 is, of course, the best critical range possible, better than a longsword's 19-20. You had it figured out all along.
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Why does every build, every guide I see puts a lot of importance on scimitars? What's so special about them that the magus needs? I'm guessing it's related to the high critical rate, but why would the magus pick this rather than, say, a longsword?I don't understand your confusion. You said yourself you guess it's related to the high critical rate, and then you ask why someone would choose that over a weapon with less of a critical rate.
Magi can apply their weapon's critical threat range (not the multiplier) to their spells. So it would make sense for every magus (or at least most magi) to pick a weapon with the best critical range possible. 18-20 is, of course, the best critical range possible, better than a longsword's 19-20. You had it figured out all along.
I don't think that was all of the confusion. I think he meant to say something else with an 18-20 crit range, such as, say, a rapier, or a urumi, or rhoka. And, for that reason, it doesn't mater all that much. The difference is in the build of character. If you are going for a human magus, or a half-elf / half-orc, where you can stick that extra +2 anywhere, go with a weapon you can get strength bonus on. You can get a strength bonus with a scimitar, if you want.
BUT, and this is a big BUT, that isn't what most magi are. I, for one, prefer an elven magus or a tiefling magus. Why, might you ask? Because of the extra +2 int, and the +2 dex (And the -2 somewhere else).
Now, while the scimitar doesn't make sense yet, here's what you do. 1st level feat? Weapon Finease. Great, now you can make your rapier swirl around faster, but not your scimitar. Yet. 3rd level feat goes into Dervish Dance. Now what do you have? You have a magus that has their dex as both their + to damage and to hit. Which means you can take your strength and dump it down to 7, and get an extra 4 points if you are using the point-buy system.
Admitidly, you'll suck the first two levels. But it won't mater, the first two levels, in the long run. Because you'll kick so much butt in the upcoming 10-18 levels that you won't care that you had a hard time hitting with your weapon the first few.
Another thing is that, with your dex high, you can do things that a strength-based magus can't. So what if you can't hit with your sword? You'll be able to acid-splash like none-other, because you'll hit. Every. Time. That +4 or +5 dex bonus helps with those ranged touch attacks.
Because the vast majority of the builds on the boards are all about min/maxing a character and do not really take any RP into account. The way a Magus does damage is with their weapon and spells.
The crit from a spell will do WAY more damage then the extra one to four points of damage you would get from say a bastard sword or battle axe. Crit range is the only thing that matters to a Magus DPR and a Scimitar is the best weapon that does not cost a feat to get it. The fact that you can do the dervish build to low the need for STR is just icing on the cake with that weapon.
Personally I like the idea of a Bastard Sword. You have less of a crit range, but when you are not doing spell combat you can two hand the weapon fairly well. Combine that with Power Attack and Enlarge Person and you get some good damage and reach.
Personally I like the idea of a Bastard Sword. You have less of a crit range, but when you are not doing spell combat you can two hand the weapon fairly well. Combine that with Power Attack and Enlarge Person and you get some good damage and reach.
I was actually going to run that in the game I'm playing in now, b/c the Dm rules that I could two hand it with spell strike, but obviously not spell combat. I decided against it though, I couldn't get it viable (in my eyes) with what I had to work with.
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Would it be brokkedee-brokkedee-brokken to allow someone to have a feat called Fencing Grace which was identical to Dervish Dance but just swapped out the word 'scimitar' for 'rapier'?
It would suit the flavour of my Magus better and, to be honest, it seems weaker (because rapier is already piercing, so you're not getting as many little extras).
edited for clarity, after Name Violation posted, thanks NV.
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Would it be brokkedee-brokkedee-brokken to allow someone to have a feat called Fencing Grace which just swapped out the word 'scimitar' for 'rapier'?
It would suit the flavour of my Magus better and, to be honest, it seems weaker (because rapier is already piercing, so your not getting as many little extras).
so dervish dance with a rapier? not broken. Just cange the word like you said.
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With Katana now out there is a possibility that Magus katana builds will be seen. Either from Samurai/magus multi-classes or from the Kensai archetype.so dervish dance with a rapier? not broken. Just cange the word like you said.Would it be brokkedee-brokkedee-brokken to allow someone to have a feat called Fencing Grace which just swapped out the word 'scimitar' for 'rapier'?
It would suit the flavour of my Magus better and, to be honest, it seems weaker (because rapier is already piercing, so your not getting as many little extras).
I haven't got UC yet, how are katanas different?
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I haven't got UC yet, how are katanas different?With Katana now out there is a possibility that Magus katana builds will be seen. Either from Samurai/magus multi-classes or from the Kensai archetype.so dervish dance with a rapier? not broken. Just cange the word like you said.Would it be brokkedee-brokkedee-brokken to allow someone to have a feat called Fencing Grace which just swapped out the word 'scimitar' for 'rapier'?
It would suit the flavour of my Magus better and, to be honest, it seems weaker (because rapier is already piercing, so your not getting as many little extras).
D8, 18-20 martial 2 hand, exotic 1 hand. +4 to the DC of a Coup de grace
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I haven't got UC yet, how are katanas different?With Katana now out there is a possibility that Magus katana builds will be seen. Either from Samurai/magus multi-classes or from the Kensai archetype.so dervish dance with a rapier? not broken. Just cange the word like you said.Would it be brokkedee-brokkedee-brokken to allow someone to have a feat called Fencing Grace which just swapped out the word 'scimitar' for 'rapier'?
It would suit the flavour of my Magus better and, to be honest, it seems weaker (because rapier is already piercing, so your not getting as many little extras).
Slightly more base damage and a pointless extra effect. Slightly better for non dervish maguses, but not worth a feat.
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Yes, if you get it for free, use it. If you can take any weapon (kensai or half elf), however, a falcata is probably a better choice. The multiplier restriction only applies to spellstrike (and even than, only to the spell damage), while the higher average damage of the falcata applies to every attack you make.
If you want to use critical feats, the katana is okay, but till then, the falcata is better.
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I dunno, generally a wider crit range is better for your average damage than a smaller range with a higher multiplier.
That doesn't apply to the falcata since is has a wide crit range as well as a high multiplier.
Average Bonus Damage through critical hits:
20/x2 - 5%
20/x3 - 10%
20/x4 - 15%
19-20/x2 - 10%
18-20/x2 - 15%
19-20/x3 - 20%
Improved Critical doubles this numbers. It's not totally accurate since it doesn't take into account bonuses on confirmation rolls or the inability to hit on each threat.
Usually I'd prefer a weapon with a higher threat range to one with a higher multiplier, but there is no weapon comparable to a falcata. If there was a 17-20/x2 weapon I'd probably take it, but there isn't.
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Which means you can take your strength and dump it down to 7, and get an extra 4 points if you are using the point-buy system.If you bring such a character to my table, I'll be watching your Encumbrance like a hawk. Items like haversacks do have a fixed encumbrance of their own.
Well not that I am promoting such outright cheesy optimizing, but honestly a Kensai wears no armor, so besides the Scimtar and maybe a belt puch with a few items in it, they need nothing else. (Well maybe a scrollcase and spellbook.) Everything else can be put on a mount to carry or just cut a deal with someone with a high strength.
Just Saying a Kensai will not likely be carrying much of a load.
two words: Dervish Dance (I know it was mentioned above)
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Note: This isn't true for a magus. Spells only crit for x2, so for a magus 18 - 20 x2 is better (for spell damage) than 19 - 20 x3, and significantly better than 20 x4. How often spell damage crits matter in comparison to melee damage crits is, of course, up to the player of any individual magus, but by and large, 18-20 x2 is the best option.
I'm not so sure about that. It depends on the relation between normal damage and spell damage. With Spell Combat and Spellstrike, you get one attack with a spell and a lot of attacks without it. Even with a 50/50 split between spell damage and normal damage, the falcata would be equal.
And the kensai has more options for normal damage (earlier fighter training, int on damage against flatfooted opponents) and less for spell damage (no spell recall) than a normal magus.
Thanks for the answers. The thing I hadn't figured out was that the critical rate of the weapon affected the spells cast while using Spell Combat or Spellstrike. Still, just for fun, I'll stick with a longsword for the first few levels, and since I'm a strenght-based magus, Dervish Dance isn't really an option for me. I'll try that out, thanks!
Does all of this mean that i should consider a crossbow over a bow for my myrmidarch?
Personally I like the idea of a Bastard Sword. You have less of a crit range, but when you are not doing spell combat you can two hand the weapon fairly well. Combine that with Power Attack and Enlarge Person and you get some good damage and reach.You can put your other hand on a scimitar, too.
I am aware but with Enlarge Person it gives you better dice with a Bastard Sword over a scimitar. Helps with Vital Strike and other things as well.
I am well aware that the uber character will be the dervish scimitar character, but that does not fit the feel of what I would like and if you are going STR then there are some advantages to using a bigger weapon.
I dunno, generally a wider crit range is better for your average damage than a smaller range with a higher multiplier.That doesn't apply to the falcata since is has a wide crit range as well as a high multiplier.
Average Bonus Damage through critical hits:
20/x2 - 5%
20/x3 - 10%
20/x4 - 15%
19-20/x2 - 10%
18-20/x2 - 15%
19-20/x3 - 20%Improved Critical doubles this numbers. It's not totally accurate since it doesn't take into account bonuses on confirmation rolls or the inability to hit on each threat.
Usually I'd prefer a weapon with a higher threat range to one with a higher multiplier, but there is no weapon comparable to a falcata. If there was a 17-20/x2 weapon I'd probably take it, but there isn't.
Not necessarily true, take this example:
Kensai Magus:
Normal:
Falcata(F): 19-20 x3 +20%
Katana (K): 18-20 x2 +15%
With perfect strike critical augment:
F: 19-20 x4 +30%
K: 18-20 x3 +30%
With Improved Critical:
F: 17-20 x3 +40%
K: 15-20 x2 +30%
With Improved Critical and Perf. Strike:
F: 17-20 x4 +60%
K: 15-20 x3 +60%
With Improved Critical, Perf. Strike and Weapon Mastery:
F: 17-20 x5 +80%
K: 15-20 x4 +90%
So, almost in any case are equal or a slight advantage of the falcata until lvl 20, but any spell is better with the katana thanks the greater crit range.
Mule Cords out the APG fix the encumbrance problem just fine with +8 Strength for encumbrance purposes, and for only 1000gp to boot!
Don't forget that the Cords take up the shoulder's slot, thus preventing the use of a Cloak of Resistance.
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Don't forget that the Cords take up the shoulder's slot, thus preventing the use of a Cloak of Resistance.
Mule Cords out the APG fix the encumbrance problem just fine with +8 Strength for encumbrance purposes, and for only 1000gp to boot!
Pft. None of my characters have cloaks of resistance, better to have displacement cloaks or some such. Mule Cords, for a 7 strength character, is perfect!
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Now, while the scimitar doesn't make sense yet, here's what you do. 1st level feat? Weapon Finease. Great, now you can make your rapier swirl around faster, but not your scimitar. Yet. 3rd level feat goes into Dervish Dance. Now what do you have? You have a magus that has their dex as both their + to damage and to hit. Which means you can take your strength and dump it down to 7, and get an extra 4 points if you are using the point-buy system.
I love min/max characters that dump their str down to 7 because they don't need the stat.
As soon as they get the exhausted condition, I ask them what their encumbrance is. Exhaustion is not a difficult condition to inflict. With a str of 1, even their clothing is more than what they are capable of lifting.
A str of 1 give you a maximum heavy encumbrance of 10lbs, basic explorers clothing weighs 8lbs, studded leather weighs 20lbs, and your scimitar weighs 4lbs. That is of course, assuming your carrying absolutely nothing for supplies. I WILL check when I see a character with a str of 7 You were carrying a spellbook (3lbs)? Was that being carried in your hands or were you using a backpack (2lbs)? You happen to have a spell component pouch (2lbs)? Thats 39lbs at a bare minimum.
Welcome to being a prone heap laying in the middle of the battlefield.
Even without being exhausted, a magus with a str of 7 is going to have a medium encumbrance, at best, which is going to limit his dex bonus to +3.
Along a similar line, I love characters that dump their int down to 5.
Dude, the paladins horse is smarter than you. Don't even think your going to contribute to solving problems or party tactics without making int rolls to solve even mundane problems. With an int of 5, using words with more than one syllable is a problem.
I love min/max characters that dump their str down to 7 because they don't need the stat.As soon as they get the exhausted condition, I ask them what their encumbrance is. Exhaustion is not a difficult condition to inflict. With a str of 1, even their clothing is more than what they are capable of lifting.
A str of 1 give you a maximum heavy encumbrance of 10lbs, basic explorers clothing weighs 8lbs, studded leather weighs 20lbs, and your scimitar weighs 4lbs. That is of course, assuming your carrying absolutely nothing for supplies. I WILL check when I see a character with a str of 7 You were carrying a spellbook (3lbs)? Was that being carried in your hands or were you using a backpack (2lbs)?
Welcome to being a prone heap laying in the middle of the battlefield.
Even without being exhausted, a magus with a str of 7 is going to have a medium encumbrance,at best, which is going to limit his dex bonus to +3.
Along a similar line, I love characters that dump their int down to 5.
Dude, the paladins horse is smarter than you. Don't even think your going to contribute to solving problems or party tactics without making int rolls to solve even mundane problems. With an int of 5, using words with more than one syllable is a problem.
Welcome to Pathfinder, THERE IS NO DUMP STAT. Oh, and all it takes to bring that magus low is one enemy willing to use the grapple rules.
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Str penalties don't affect encumbrance.
Strength controls how much you can lift and thus determines at what point you become encumbered.
Arguing otherwise would be equivalent to arguing that increases to strength do not increase carrying capacity.
An example would be the Mule Chords mentioned above. They grant a +8 bonus to strength strictly for the purpose of determining encumbrance.
Under normal circumstances, this would enable a character with a 7 str to act unencumbered. All it cost you is your shoulder slot.
Of course, said character would still eat penalties when exhausted or if attacked by a monster that drained strength. Most casters with a 10 str would be in the same position though.
RAW (Strength Changes):"Temporary Bonuses: Temporary increases to your Strength score give you a bonus on Strength-based skill checks, melee attack rolls, and weapon damage rolls (if they rely on Strength). The bonus also applies to your Combat Maneuver Bonus (if you are Small or larger) and to your Combat Maneuver Defense."
"Ability Damage: Damage to your Strength score causes you to take penalties on Strength-based skill checks, melee attack rolls, and weapon damage rolls (if they rely on Strength). The penalty also applies to your Combat Maneuver Bonus (if you are Small or larger) and your Combat Maneuver Defense."
"Ability Drain: Ability drain actually reduces the relevant ability score. Modify all skills and statistics related to that ability. This might cause you to lose skill points, hit points, and other bonuses. Ability drain can be healed through the use of spells such as restoration."
All found -> Here (Well I used the D20 site cos its easier to copy from)
RAI: I would include carry capacity in the list of items to gain benefits/ take penalties from temporary effects.
If you take the route that Strength Damage does not affect encumbrance then by the same token temporary strength boost will not affect it either. I prefer the reality that allows "Bull Strength" to add to what I lift over my head, not just the burst DC of breaking by bonds etc.
You cannot have one without the other. Yes it was missed off the list, but it is missing from both lists.
The only thing with a Dervish Dance dexterity build is, that it is unlikely that it will have Power Attack. Piranha Strike isn't a viable alternative, since the Scimitar is not a light weapon.
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Now, while the scimitar doesn't make sense yet, here's what you do. 1st level feat? Weapon Finease. Great, now you can make your rapier swirl around faster, but not your scimitar. Yet. 3rd level feat goes into Dervish Dance. Now what do you have? You have a magus that has their dex as both their + to damage and to hit. Which means you can take your strength and dump it down to 7, and get an extra 4 points if you are using the point-buy system.
I love min/max characters that dump their str down to 7 because they don't need the stat.
As soon as they get the exhausted condition, I ask them what their encumbrance is. Exhaustion is not a difficult condition to inflict. With a str of 1, even their clothing is more than what they are capable of lifting.
A str of 1 give you a maximum heavy encumbrance of 10lbs, basic explorers clothing weighs 8lbs, studded leather weighs 20lbs, and your scimitar weighs 4lbs. That is of course, assuming your carrying absolutely nothing for supplies. I WILL check when I see a character with a str of 7 You were carrying a spellbook (3lbs)? Was that being carried in your hands or were you using a backpack (2lbs)? You happen to have a spell component pouch (2lbs)? Thats 39lbs at a bare minimum.
Welcome to being a prone heap laying in the middle of the battlefield.
Even without being exhausted, a magus with a str of 7 is going to have a medium encumbrance, at best, which is going to limit his dex bonus to +3.
Along a similar line, I love characters that dump their int down to 5.
Dude, the paladins horse is smarter than you. Don't even think your going to contribute to solving problems or party tactics without making int rolls to solve even mundane problems. With an int of 5, using words with more than one syllable is a problem.
Maximum light load with a 7 strength rating = 23 lbs
Mithral Shirt = 10 lbs
Mithral Scimitar = 2 lbs
Spell Book = 3 lbs
Spell Companent Pouch = 2 lbs
so far we are up to 17 lbs. Still with 6 pounds to go before we have to start to care.
Let's get fancy now!
Headband of Vast Intelligence = 1 lbs
Belt of Incredible Dexterity = 1 lbs
4 lbs left to go! Do you have more stuff to worry about? Throw it in your backpack, which is 2 lbs. Also, put on a set of Muleback Cords, when you do so. Now you are at 21.25 lbs But your maximum light load is 66 lbs. Start stuffing whatever you want into your bags now, as you have 43.75 lbs worth of free room. Also, if you want to be "cheeky" make that backpack masterwork. Now you can carry up to 76 lbs worth of stuff. If you really want, rather then having a masterwork back pack, get a type III bag of holding. It weighs 35 lbs. Make sure you have those mule cords on. You can now carry up to 1000 lbs worth of "stuff". That platemail that your paladin friend doesn't want to have to lug around everywhere? Into the bag of holding! And all this stuff is easily obtainable, and relatively cheap. the headband and the belt are the most expensive things on this list, and everyone should be getting those at some point.
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Maximum light load with a 7 strength rating = 23 lbsMithral Shirt = 10 lbs
Mithral Scimitar = 2 lbs
Spell Book = 3 lbs
Spell Companent Pouch = 2 lbsso far we are up to 17 lbs. Still with 6 pounds to go before we have to start to care.
Let's get fancy now!
Headband of Vast Intelligence = 1 lbs
Belt of Incredible Dexterity = 1 lbs4 lbs left to go! Do you have more stuff to worry about? Throw it in your backpack, which is 2 lbs. Also, put on a set of Muleback Cords, when you do so. Now you are at 21.25 lbs But your maximum light load is 66 lbs. Start stuffing whatever you want into your bags now, as you have 43.75 lbs worth of free room. Also, if you want to be "cheeky" make that backpack masterwork. Now you can carry up to 76 lbs worth of stuff. If you really want, rather then having a masterwork back pack, get a type III bag of holding. It weighs 35 lbs. Make sure you have those mule cords on. You can now carry up to 1000 lbs worth of "stuff". That platemail that your paladin friend doesn't want to have to lug around everywhere? Into the bag of holding! And all this stuff is easily obtainable, and relatively cheap. the headband and the belt are the most expensive things on this list, and everyone should be getting those at some point.
NORMAL chainshirt: 25 lbs, 100gp
NORMAL scimitar: 4 lbs, 15gpTOTAL: 115gp, 29 lbs
Magus starting wealth: 140 gp
Mithral light armor: 1000gp
Mithral scimitar: 1000gp
Muleback Cords: 1000gp
bag of holding III: 7400gp
TOTAL: 10400gp
Character wealth by level: 5 lvl - 10500gp.
While 5lvl is not that hard to get you are also assuming that your DM will follow the wealth by lvl table, be generous and let you choose/manufacture your magic itens.
The problem here is many people consider this build cheese and they will do whatever in their power to make you pay for your choice. I would rather avoid this situation.
The only thing with a Dervish Dance dexterity build is, that it is unlikely that it will have Power Attack. Piranha Strike isn't a viable alternative, since the Scimitar is not a light weapon.
That.
That's why even dervish dance magi have a STR of 13 but that's it.
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All I can say is that a front liner like the magus will likely find himself subject to effects like Ray of Enfeeblement, Str draining poisons or diseases. Such effects will cripple that character much quicker than other front liners. If you want to use Str as your dump stat, just be aware that a single Ray of Enfeeblement will likely reduce you to 1 Str and effectively cripple you.
If you are going to dump stat something, it is better to dump Wis or Cha, or both. You will just have to understand your personality (if role-played well) will be grating and no one will like you lol.
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Strength controls how much you can lift and thus determines at what point you become encumbered.There's nothing to argue; that's the rules from the core rulebook.
Ability Score Damage, Penalty, and Drain
[...]
Some spells and abilities cause you to take an ability penalty for a limited amount of time. While in effect, these penalties function just like ability damage
[...]
Strength: Damage to your Strength score causes you to take penalties on Strength-based skill checks, melee attack rolls, and weapon damage rolls (if they rely on Strength). The penalty also applies to your Combat Maneuver Bonus (if you are Small or larger) and your Combat Maneuver Defense.Do you see any mention of encumbrance ? Me right you wrong.
RAI: I would include carry capacity in the list of items to gain benefits/ take penalties from temporary effects.RAI, they simplified the effect of ability damage to reduce the bookkeeping, and avoid the need of one-hour-computation each time someone cast Ray of enfeeblement or Touch of fatigue.
RAI, Str damages don't affect encumbrance.
You have at best proved that Mule Chords don't work. I would be impressed if everything worked as intended in Pathfinder, but that's not the case. eg (in relation with ability damages): the blight hex does 1 Str damage per day (or 1 Con, or 1 whatever, don't remember); according to the rules, 1 Str damage doesn't do anything, and the creature heal 1 point per day. Therefore, the blight hex doesn't do anything by itself, and is even weaker than an effect which "prevent the target to naturally heal Str damages". I don't think it's...Arguing otherwise would be equivalent to arguing that increases to strength do not increase carrying capacity.
An example would be the Mule Chords mentioned above. They grant a +8 bonus to strength strictly for the purpose of determining encumbrance.
1. Just for you sir, I would rule that any and all bonuses you have to your strength fail to increase your carrying capacity (other than the mule chords, of course). I hope you don't plan on eventually wearing heavy armor.
2. I would really hope that some smart npc with a high knowledge(arcane), most wizards, does not identify the obvious visual effect of your mule chords and communicate this to the fighter your engaged with. Sunder sucks and your still using your str mod as part of your CMD.
2. You've got to live long enough to acquire those items, you won't start with them.
Just for you sir, I would rule that any and all bonuses you have to your strength fail to increase your carrying capacity.
I hope you don't plan on wearing heavy armor, or carrying to much of that loot your party found.
Just for you sir I would rule me leaving the table is the polite way to tell you where you can go and what you can do when you get there.
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NORMAL chainshirt: 25 lbs, 100gp
NORMAL scimitar: 4 lbs, 15gpTOTAL: 115gp, 29 lbs
Magus starting wealth: 140 gp
Showing up with this equipment list at level 1 means:
1. Your dex bonus is capped at +4, a 20 dex will do you no good.
2. Your not casting any spells (no spellbook)
3. You would have no place to put a spellbook other than carrying it in your offhand, which would prevent you from casting.
4. You have no spell components to cast with.
5. You have no food, no water, no way to care for your single weapon.
6. Your not counting the weight of your clothing. (go on, tell me your starting with no pants, boots, etc. I dare you. Your clothing has a weight listing in the rules. I will apply it.)
And yes, cheese builds presented by rules lawyers get looked at far more closely. It's amazing what the rules lawyers tend to ignore outside of their stat blocks.
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Just for you sir I would rule me leaving the table is the polite way to tell you where you can go and what you can do when you get there.Just for you sir, I would rule that any and all bonuses you have to your strength fail to increase your carrying capacity.
I hope you don't plan on wearing heavy armor, or carrying to much of that loot your party found.
Fair is fair, but you can't have it both ways. If negative mods to strength don't decrease your carrying capacity, positive mods to strength won't increase it.
Outside of that issue. I find games run much more smoothly without the min/max players.
Still it's extra damage that you can't get otherwise, sure considering how many points you have to spend (or what rolls you have) and the fact that you have to take a penalty to get that bonus damage the thing becomes coplicated and we can't make an all-compassing observation but i still think that if you had enough points to spend you can make a profit out of power attack at the majority of the levels, but again i am saying that it should be examined on a case by case level.