Just for you sir I would rule me leaving the table is the polite way to tell you where you can go and what you can do when you get there.Just for you sir, I would rule that any and all bonuses you have to your strength fail to increase your carrying capacity.
I hope you don't plan on wearing heavy armor, or carrying to much of that loot your party found.
Fair is fair, but you can't have it both ways. If negative mods to strength don't decrease your carrying capacity, positive mods to strength won't increase it.
Outside of that issue. I find games run much more smoothly without the min/max players.
Well if you insist on ignoring the rules...
Permanent BonusesAbility bonuses with a duration greater than 1 day actually increase the relevant ability score after 24 hours. Modify all skills and This might cause you to gain skill points, hit points, and other bonuses. These bonuses should be noted separately in case they are removed.
But hey I guess you didn't read that right?
Just for you sir I would rule me leaving the table is the polite way to tell you where you can go and what you can do when you get there.Just for you sir, I would rule that any and all bonuses you have to your strength fail to increase your carrying capacity.
I hope you don't plan on wearing heavy armor, or carrying to much of that loot your party found.
Fair is fair, but you can't have it both ways. If negative mods to strength don't decrease your carrying capacity, positive mods to strength won't increase it.
Outside of that issue. I find games run much more smoothly without the min/max players.
It depends, when one player has to deal with a low allocation of stats (for example 15 point buy) and that player wants to play a somewhat MAD class (like the magus) or a truly MAD class (monk) then it has no choice but to start dumping.
I for example when i play with 25 point buy i almost never dump stats (before racial modifiers) and when i am playing with 20 point buy i dump only when i play MAD or somewhat MAD class and try to avoid it when i play SAD classes (like wizards), but when i have to play with 15 point buy i will most certainly dump stats even with SAD classes (but maybe not down to 7, depends on the game).
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Just for you sir I would rule me leaving the table is the polite way to tell you where you can go and what you can do when you get there.Just for you sir, I would rule that any and all bonuses you have to your strength fail to increase your carrying capacity.
I hope you don't plan on wearing heavy armor, or carrying to much of that loot your party found.
Fair is fair, but you can't have it both ways. If negative mods to strength don't decrease your carrying capacity, positive mods to strength won't increase it.
Outside of that issue. I find games run much more smoothly without the min/max players.
Well if you insist on ignoring the rules...
But hey I guess you didn't read that right?
Permanent BonusesAbility bonuses with a duration greater than 1 day actually increase the relevant ability score after 24 hours. Modify all skills and This might cause you to gain skill points, hit points, and other bonuses. These bonuses should be noted separately in case they are removed.
Oh I read it, and permanent ability bonuses will raise a stat. Many sources are removable, however. They get canceled for 6 seconds, its 24 hours before they once more become considered an ability increase.
By the time characters are accessing the major items for stat bonuses, they are also encountering enemies that can, at least temporarily, neutralize those bonuses. That's always been a part of the game.
Well then maybe you shouldn't say the exact opposite in your posts?
Fair is fair, but you can't have it both ways. If negative mods to strength don't decrease your carrying capacity, positive mods to strength won't increase it.
Outside of that issue. I find games run much more smoothly without the min/max players.
A penalty isn't taking the bonus away -- it's a penalty on top of the bonus -- the bonus is still there.
Now you hit it with a dispel magic or something -- alright, fair game. But a penalty or strength damage won't do it. You need Drain (which will do it).
Simply put hit him with a shadow.
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It depends, when one player has to deal with a low allocation of stats (for example 15 point buy) and that player wants to play a somewhat MAD class (like the magus) or a truly MAD class (monk) then it has no choice but to start dumping.
I for example when i play with 25 point buy i almost never dump stats (before racial modifiers) and when i am playing with 20 point buy i dump only when i play MAD or somewhat MAD class and try to avoid it when i play SAD classes (like wizards), but when i have to play with 15 point buy i will most certainly dump stats even with SAD classes (but maybe not down to 7, depends on the game).
My personal preference is for a 20pt buy, high enough for decent stats while still having to make a few choices.
I'm currently juggling a gnome synthesist concept, but even he's starting with an 8 str, 10 dex, 12 con. I've been debating taking two levels of a second class (monk or pally or magus). I've had a twinge to take monk 1 / oracle(lore) 1, but decided not to. The idea of using my charisma instead of dex as my AC mod was tempting(and bypasses the negative mods to dex from size increases), but outside the character concept.
My personal preference is for a 20pt buy, high enough for decent stats while still having to make a few choices.
I'm currently juggling a gnome synthesist concept, but even he's starting with an 8 str, 10 dex, 12 con. I've been debating taking two levels of a second class (monk or pally or magus). I've had a twinge to take monk 1 / oracle(lore) 1, but decided not to. The idea of using my charisma instead of dex as my AC mod was tempting(and bypasses the negative mods to dex from size increases), but outside the character concept.
Probably for the best I don't think that the monk part would help with the eidolon summoned -- but I'm not sure of that and certainly don't have anything RAW to back that opinion up.
The stat modifiers modify the base ability score. so if you're 14 with a +2 adder you're Str 16 (14+2). The adders do NOT make you immune to str damage that attacks the base score as they don't modify you to a set fixed value. If you get hit with strength damage for 2 pts your strength is now 12+2 so you're now effectively a 14 instead of a 16.
Never said they did LazarX -- however that doesn't mean Str damage does something that it doesn't say it does -- like lower encumbrance, and str damage doesn't negate the effects of the cords/belt (which would be needed to end their effect so that it takes a new 24 hours to 'set' them again).
Only Strength Drain lowers encumbrance and only breaking or dispelling the cords would cancel them out so that you would have to wear them for a new 24 hour period before the 'permanent' effects happen again.
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Probably for the best I don't think that the monk part would help with the eidolon summoned -- but I'm not sure of that and certainly don't have anything RAW to back that opinion up.
/shrug, it was for the saves + wisdom bonus to AC + the free feats (unarmed combat would be useful to the concept, which is why a two level dip into monk is still being considered). In the case of the Synthesist, yes, it would help.
The only thing with a Dervish Dance dexterity build is, that it is unlikely that it will have Power Attack. Piranha Strike isn't a viable alternative, since the Scimitar is not a light weapon.I don't really find that power attack is worth it for a dervish magus build.
By 12th level you're looking at a feat and stat points for a -3 to hit for +6 damage, it's not that great a return. For the stat investment alone I can raise DEX by 2 to see a +1 to hit and +1 to damage as well as REF, INIT and skills. But just with the stat investment you're looking at a net -4 to hit for +5 damage for a feat.
Basically you're talking about the usefulness of power attacking with a single light/one-handed weapon and it's just not really there.
-James
I am on your side on this issue. As the Magus already is two-weapon fighting via spell combat, further drains on his attack bonus suck. I'd rather hit more often than not enough.
Maximum light load with a 7 strength rating = 23 lbsWhile 5lvl is not that hard to get you are also assuming that your DM will follow the wealth by lvl table, be generous and let you choose/manufacture your magic itens.
The problem here is many people consider this build cheese and they will do whatever in their power to make you pay for your choice. I would rather avoid this situation.
Welcome to playing with "Cop Out" people. This is a game that is ment to be fun. So be GM that say NO NO NO. Fine I will be PC that No... I will not put up with that crap either. I will find new game. If PC want to spend 99% of there wealth on makeing sure that his PC can walk and carry stuff go for it. Then they have no other stuff like healing, flying, saves, AC ect. And yes 2k of the 10k is in the weapon and armor will let over some some DR and have slightly better AC if you have theDEX to power it. But that still mean they spent 80% over theree wealth on stuff that make able to carry and move. Not real combat stuff. So fine go for it.
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Well then maybe you shouldn't say the exact opposite in your posts?
Fair is fair, but you can't have it both ways. If negative mods to strength don't decrease your carrying capacity, positive mods to strength won't increase it.
Outside of that issue. I find games run much more smoothly without the min/max players.
A penalty isn't taking the bonus away -- it's a penalty on top of the bonus -- the bonus is still there.
Now you hit it with a dispel magic or something -- alright, fair game. But a penalty or strength damage won't do it. You need Drain (which will do it).
Simply put hit him with a shadow.
I agree. And both shadows and dispels are common by the time characters start getting stat mod items.
Also, as noted above, a character who's dumped strength is going to be very vulnerable to sunder / grapple / trip. Not a good idea for a front line fighter.
While I don't typically abuse such attacks, a character who's dumped strength is so vulnerable to such effects that it only takes once to destroy them. They also happen to be something any reasonably intelligent opponent will use if available.
/shrug, it was for the saves + wisdom bonus to AC + the free feats (unarmed combat would be useful to the concept, which is why a two level dip into monk is still being considered). In the case of the Synthesist, yes, it would help.
Probably for the best I don't think that the monk part would help with the eidolon summoned -- but I'm not sure of that and certainly don't have anything RAW to back that opinion up.
That's right for some reason I was thinking it worked like the golem armor (which it doesn't).
I agree. And both shadows and dispels are common by the time characters start getting stat mod items.Also, as noted above, a character who's dumped strength is going to be very vulnerable to sunder / grapple / trip. Not a good idea for a front line fighter.
While I don't typically abuse such attacks, a character who's dumped strength is so vulnerable to such effects that it only takes once to destroy them. They also happen to be something any reasonably intelligent opponent will use if available.
Meh depends on the player -- I'm more than willing to dump a stat -- but even as I do I know it's something I need to watch out for and be aware of -- Grease goes a long way in helping against grapples for example, as does some feats.
Just like taking a low Wisdom, Charisma, or Constitution you have to realize what you are doing and plan for it.
For example I would rather hit them hard enough that they are more worried about my dex buffing belt than my cords -- or have a high enough AC (via Kensai) that my touch AC isn't easy for them to hit. Perhaps having Ant Haul cast as a back up (dispel hits the highest level spell first, unless you are specifically targeting... and I got to ask how you know to target Ant Haul unless you saw me cast it -- and if you saw me cast it why didn't I notice the sensor with my detect scrying spell?).
Just for you sir I would rule me leaving the table is the polite way to tell you where you can go and what you can do when you get there.Just for you sir, I would rule that any and all bonuses you have to your strength fail to increase your carrying capacity.
I hope you don't plan on wearing heavy armor, or carrying to much of that loot your party found.
Fair is fair, but you can't have it both ways. If negative mods to strength don't decrease your carrying capacity, positive mods to strength won't increase it.
Outside of that issue. I find games run much more smoothly without the min/max players.
I think that it already does work both ways. The mod in both cases is to strength checks, not strength itself. Think of it like a slight burst of power rather than constant steam of power that a bonus to stat itself would be.
In which case a bonus to strength rolls would not increase your encumbrance limits.
Edit - The way I put the kibosh on min/maxing like this is to say to the players that feats from strange books, any book other than the CRB for that matter, are subject to my approval. Especially if the game is not set in Golarion, Dervish Dance being from the Inner Sea guide.
I think that it already does work both ways. The mod in both cases is to strength checks, not strength itself. Think of it like a slight burst of power rather than constant steam of power that a bonus to stat itself would be.
In which case a bonus to strength rolls would not increase your encumbrance limits.
Nope permanent bonuses (those that last longer than 24 hours) affect all statistics that are based off of that score. Penalties do not have this line and neither does ability damage. In fact they specifically list what they do affect (which doesn't include encumbrance).
Now ability drain does.
Same for spell casting -- ability penalty and damage just lowers the DC and your bonus to concentration checks -- you don't lose spells or the ability to cast spells unless something specific in the thing that causes you to take the penalty or damage specifically states as much (such as touch of idiocy).
I think that it already does work both ways. The mod in both cases is to strength checks, not strength itself. Think of it like a slight burst of power rather than constant steam of power that a bonus to stat itself would be.
In which case a bonus to strength rolls would not increase your encumbrance limits.
Nope permanent bonuses (those that last longer than 24 hours) affect all statistics that are based off of that score. Penalties do not have this line and neither does ability damage. In fact they specifically list what they do affect (which doesn't include encumbrance).
Now ability drain does.
Same for spell casting -- ability penalty and damage just lowers the DC and your bonus to concentration checks -- you don't lose spells or the ability to cast spells unless something specific in the thing that causes you to take the penalty or damage specifically states as much (such as touch of idiocy).
I stand corrected. The conditions glossary doesn't make the distinction between checks and the actual stats, so Abe is right by the RAW.
However, I agree with Artanthos that strength penalties not effecting encumbrance is lame.
I stand corrected. The conditions glossary doesn't make the distinction between checks and the actual stats, so Abe is right by the RAW.
However, I agree with Artanthos that strength penalties not effecting encumbrance is lame.
So it isn't enough that it completely bones the fighter in the first place -- now it's got to heavily encumber him too?
Cute.
Got to thing around everything not just the one specific case.
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For example I would rather hit them hard enough that they are more worried about my dex buffing belt than my cords -- or have a high enough AC (via Kensai) that my touch AC isn't easy for them to hit. Perhaps having Ant Haul cast as a back up (dispel hits the highest level spell first, unless you are specifically targeting... and I got to ask how you know to target Ant Haul unless you saw me cast it -- and if you saw me cast it why didn't I notice the sensor with my detect scrying spell?).
If I was targeting specifically, it would mostly likely be the mule chords, which are noted as having an obvious effect.
A character expending sufficient resources to avoid becoming encumbered can certainly do so, but those are resources no longer available for other purposes (such as increasing DPR).
Most builds min/maxed for DPR won't be considering encumbrance though.
I think that it already does work both ways. The mod in both cases is to strength checks, not strength itself. Think of it like a slight burst of power rather than constant steam of power that a bonus to stat itself would be.
I stand corrected. The conditions glossary doesn't make the distinction between checks and the actual stats, so Abe is right by the RAW.
However, I agree with Artanthos that strength penalties not effecting encumbrance is lame.
Do you realy want stop a fight and refigure out carrying encumbrance every time you loss STR. PLease make me stop the game more to look something up. So it take 45 minute to get be back to my turn. Hell No!!!Do not slow the game down.
If I was targeting specifically, it would mostly likely be the mule chords, which are noted as having an obvious effect.
A character expending sufficient resources to avoid becoming encumbered can certainly do so, but those are resources no longer available for other purposes (such as increasing DPR).
Most builds min/maxed for DPR won't be considering encumbrance though.
Well I think we are on about the same page if at different ends -- suffix to say I think a good min/max build will -- but then I think we both know that not all 'min/maxed' builds are good.
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I stand corrected. The conditions glossary doesn't make the distinction between checks and the actual stats, so Abe is right by the RAW.
However, I agree with Artanthos that strength penalties not effecting encumbrance is lame.
So it isn't enough that it completely bones the fighter in the first place -- now it's got to heavily encumber him too?
Cute.
Got to thing around everything not just the one specific case.
For s strength based fighter, it's a non-issue. He'll have strength to burn.
For s strength based fighter, it's a non-issue. He'll have strength to burn.
Sure taking 16 points of strength penalty from an ray of enfeeblement will be nothing for him...
or at level say 4 taking 1d6+2 strength penalty... between 3 (nothing) to 8 (a lot) points of penalty on his... 21 strength? That's putting him to a 13 -- hope he wasn't carrying anything beyond his armor and weapon.
Now consider say a fighter being exhausted -- not hard to do, simply two rays of exhaustion at max. Now he can't charge and has a -6 to both dex and strength... now after taking that -6 penalty to strength he's possibly encumbered too meaning he can't move as far (even medium encumbrance puts him to 20 feet a round).
Can't charge and the wizard can simply walk away while casting spells -- never to be hit by the melee fighter again (30 foot move speed compared to a 20 foot move speed -- yes a slight exaggeration but not by much).
For s strength based fighter, it's a non-issue. He'll have strength to burn.Sure taking 16 points of strength penalty from an ray of enfeeblement will be nothing for him...
or at level say 4 taking 1d6+2 strength penalty... between 3 (nothing) to 8 (a lot) points of penalty on his... 21 strength? That's putting him to a 13 -- hope he wasn't carrying anything beyond his armor and weapon.
Now consider say a fighter being exhausted -- not hard to do, simply two rays of exhaustion at max. Now he can't charge and has a -6 to both dex and strength... now after taking that -6 penalty to strength he's possibly encumbered too meaning he can't move as far (even medium encumbrance puts him to 20 feet a round).
Can't charge and the wizard can simply walk away while casting spells -- never to be hit by the melee fighter again (30 foot move speed compared to a 20 foot move speed -- yes a slight exaggeration but not by much).
Ummmm so he drops his backpack then? Why is this so "unfair" when its just simple physics? What makes sense about a fighter with an effective strength of 3 walking around in fullplate? Don't want to suffer under extreme stat penalties when someone casts a spell at you? that is what a cleric or an abjurer is for.
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For s strength based fighter, it's a non-issue. He'll have strength to burn.Sure taking 16 points of strength penalty from an ray of enfeeblement will be nothing for him...
or at level say 4 taking 1d6+2 strength penalty... between 3 (nothing) to 8 (a lot) points of penalty on his... 21 strength? That's putting him to a 13 -- hope he wasn't carrying anything beyond his armor and weapon.
Now consider say a fighter being exhausted -- not hard to do, simply two rays of exhaustion at max. Now he can't charge and has a -6 to both dex and strength... now after taking that -6 penalty to strength he's possibly encumbered too meaning he can't move as far (even medium encumbrance puts him to 20 feet a round).
Can't charge and the wizard can simply walk away while casting spells -- never to be hit by the melee fighter again (30 foot move speed compared to a 20 foot move speed -- yes a slight exaggeration but not by much).
Sounds about right. But then, if the players go through the trouble of hitting an NPC with with a ray of enfeeblement + 2 rays of exhaustion, they'll expect similar penalties to apply to said NPC. It's effective, and it works on both PC's and NPC's.
Sounds about right. But then, if the players go through the trouble of hitting an NPC with with a ray of enfeeblement + 2 rays of exhaustion, they'll expect similar penalties to apply to said NPC. It's effective, and it works on both PC's and NPC's.
Oh no -- I didn't mean both -- I meant one or the other. Both would be just over the top boning -- I mean a -22 to strength? The best the fighter is going to get is a 37 and that's if he goes for eldritch heritage(abyssal) to get the +6 from the level 9 power.
Again I'm not looking at it from a PC against NPCs but an NPCs against PCs.
NPC hits the fighter with ray of exhaustion fighter fails and you are double boning him, once with the penalties from exhaustion again from hitting him with encumbrance -- which he suddenly has to figure in the middle of the fight.
All while the wizard that takes an Int penalty doesn't lose spells or spell levels.
Besides penalties aren't supposed to be that bad -- they areless than damage -- and damage doesn't do all that.
And NPCs have to carry equipment too.
Lets say the NPC has a strength of 21 at level 7.
He gets hit and fails his save against a ray of exhaustion.
His carrying capacity was 153 Lbs for light.
Now it's 66 Lbs or less.
Now he had full plate on, handy haversack, his clothes and his main weapon with one back up and a ranged weapon.
50 lbs from the full plate, 2 from the handy haversack and 4 from the clothing puts him at 56. Great sword at 8 lbs, a longsword at 4 lbs, and a composite longbow (str +5) 3 lbs with 40 arrows 6 lbs... he's at:
77 Lbs and medium encumbrance. Now the armor wasn't slowing his movement he's a fighter -- but suddenly he's maximum Dex bonus is now a +3 (with full plate at level 7 this isn't a lost for him since he's already at +3 with the full plate) and his movement is only 20 feet a round, on top of taking a -5 total if he uses his bow (-3 from the exhaustion penalty to Dex and -2 for inappropriate strength score). He can't charge, he can't run and he can't hardly do much of anything.
1 spell and he's been hosed -- and he wasn't even carrying that much -- armor, his main weapon, his back up and a bow with some arrows.
Now a PC might have a 23 at that level -- so he would still be good... with only 9 lbs to spare -- hope he's not carrying anything else... like more arrows, or some party loot, or a shield.
Lets say the NPC has a strength of 21 at level 7.He gets hit and fails his save against a ray of exhaustion.
His carrying capacity was 153 Lbs for light.
Now it's 66 Lbs or less.
Now he had full plate on, handy haversack, his clothes and his main weapon with one back up and a ranged weapon.
50 lbs from the full plate, 2 from the handy haversack and 4 from the clothing puts him at 56. Great sword at 8 lbs, a longsword at 4 lbs, and a composite longbow (str +5) 3 lbs with 40 arrows 6 lbs... he's at:
77 Lbs and medium encumbrance. Now the armor wasn't slowing his movement he's a fighter -- but suddenly he's maximum Dex bonus is now a +3 (with full plate at level 7 this isn't a lost for him since he's already at +3 with the full plate) and his movement is only 20 feet a round, on top of taking a -5 total if he uses his bow (-3 from the exhaustion penalty to Dex and -2 for inappropriate strength...
Again, I see nothing wrong with this scenario. If I was said, fighter, I would be shedding equipment to get to my new encumbrance limits. Ray of exhaustion is a 3rd level spell, requires BOTH a touch attack and a fort save. How is this any worse than being hit by a hold person spell and failing that save?
It doesn't have to say that it lowers encumbrance, since encumbrance is DIRECTLY tied to the effective strength score, lowering that score is going to lower encumbrance.
Never said they did LazarX -- however that doesn't mean Str damage does something that it doesn't say it does -- like lower encumbrance, and str damage doesn't negate the effects of the cords/belt (which would be needed to end their effect so that it takes a new 24 hours to 'set' them again).
Again you are wrong.
Why do you persist in not looking at the rules before speaking?
Ability Score Penalties
Some spells and abilities cause you to take an ability penalty for a limited amount of time. While in effect, these penalties function just like ability damage, but they cannot cause you to fall unconscious or die. In essence, penalties cannot decrease your ability score to less than 1.
Ability Score Damage
Diseases, poisons, spells, and other abilities can all deal damage directly to your ability scores. This damage does not actually reduce an ability, but it does apply a penalty to the skills and statistics that are based on that ability.
For every 2 points of damage you take to a single ability, apply a –1 penalty to skills and statistics listed with the relevant ability. If the amount of ability damage you have taken equals or exceeds your ability score, you immediately fall unconscious until the damage is less than your ability score. The only exception to this is your Constitution score. If the damage to your Constitution is equal to or greater than your Constitution score, you die. Unless otherwise noted, damage to your ability scores is healed at the rate of 1 per day to each ability score that has been damaged. Ability damage can be healed through the use of spells, such as lesser restoration.
Strength: Damage to your Strength score causes you to take penalties on Strength-based skill checks, melee attack rolls, and weapon damage rolls (if they rely on Strength). The penalty also applies to your Combat Maneuver Bonus (if you are Small or larger) and your Combat Maneuver Defense.
Dexterity: Damage to your Dexterity score causes you to take penalties on Dexterity-based skill checks, ranged attack rolls, initiative checks, and Reflex saving throws. The penalty also applies to your Armor Class, your Combat Maneuver Bonus (if you are Tiny or smaller), and to your Combat Maneuver Defense.
Constitution: Damage to your Constitution score causes you to take penalties on your Fortitude saving throws. In addition, multiply your total Hit Dice by this penalty and subtract that amount from your current and total hit points. Lost hit points are restored when the damage to your Constitution is healed.
Intelligence: Damage to your Intelligence score causes you to take penalties on Intelligence-based skill checks. This penalty also applies to any spell DCs based on Intelligence.
Wisdom: Damage to your Wisdom score causes you to take penalties on Wisdom-based skill checks and Will saving throws. This penalty also applies to any spell DCs based on Wisdom.
Charisma: Damage to your Charisma score causes you to take penalties on Charisma-based skill checks. This penalty also applies to any spell DCs based off Charisma and the DC to resist your channeled energy.
Please note that encumbrance isn't in that list.
Now a PC might have a 23 at that level -- so he would still be good... with only 9 lbs to spare -- hope he's not carrying anything else... like more arrows, or some party loot, or a shield.The people who get hosed and rightfully so are those fighters who build with str 7.
Or you know -- anyone with a strength score. As I just pointed out -- after all if he's carrying a shield with him he's in medium encumbrance.
Of course you can ignore that too.
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So maybe this should all be ina thread called "Lets argue about strength and ability damage" instead of Magus and Scimitar?
On that note, Scimitars are good. High crit is good, spells use weapon crit range, so shocking grasp that crits on an 18 or better? Yes please. Moving on...
I think there aught to be more Dervish Dance feats, with other weapons, maybe changing up where the opportunity to deal Dex-based damage happens. Perhaps like the round after moving more than 5 feat, or after having successfully making a full attack in the previous round.
What other weapons tend to have a very twirly style to them where movement adds to weapon velocity? Spiked chain? Meteor Hammer? Spear wielded by Jet li? The two finger strike of a northern wu style gong fu master?
Again, I see nothing wrong with this scenario. If I was said, fighter, I would be shedding equipment to get to my new encumbrance limits. Ray of exhaustion is a 3rd level spell, requires BOTH a touch attack and a fort save. How is this any worse than being hit by a hold person spell and failing that save?
Hold person allows a save each round -- and ray of exhaustion has an effect even if you make the save -- touch AC is generally (especially against a high strength opponent) no big deal. Two ray of exhaustions and you are down for the count regardless of your save.
What's more Ray of Exhaustion is going to last much longer.
Finally a first level spell (protection from alignment) will completely block Hold person -- the same cannot be said for Ray of Exhaustion (though Entropic shield isn't a bad choice).
So I say it compares rather well.
Again, I see nothing wrong with this scenario. If I was said, fighter, I would be shedding equipment to get to my new encumbrance limits. Ray of exhaustion is a 3rd level spell, requires BOTH a touch attack and a fort save. How is this any worse than being hit by a hold person spell and failing that save?Hold person allows a save each round -- and ray of exhaustion has an effect even if you make the save -- touch AC is generally (especially against a high strength opponent) no big deal. Two ray of exhaustions and you are down for the count regardless of your save.
What's more Ray of Exhaustion is going to last much longer.
Finally a first level spell (protection from alignment) will completely block Hold person -- the same cannot be said for Ray of Exhaustion (though Entropic shield isn't a bad choice).
So I say it compares rather well.
I agree. I like the idea that as a fighter I'd have to decide that dropping gear was a necessary tactic to close range and stop that caster from immobilizing me next round, but that is me.
I understand why the game probably was balanced this way without encumbrance becoming something people need to look up when they get strength penalties (its more charts, more math etc), but the Simulationist in me cries fowl!
In the end I think that this is something that a GM is in their right to enforce or ignore. As a GM I'd be more likely to cause the encumbrance issue because its more interesting (but then I also like fireballs to have a chance to cook fragile equipment such as scrolls).
I agree. I like the idea that as a fighter I'd have to decide that dropping gear was a necessary tactic to close range and stop that caster from immobilizing me next round, but that is me.I understand why the game probably was balanced this way without encumbrance becoming something people need to look up when they get strength penalties (its more charts, more math etc), but the Simulationist in me cries fowl!
In the end I think that this is something that a GM is in their right to enforce or ignore. As a GM I'd be more likely to cause the encumbrance issue because its more interesting (but then I also like fireballs to have a chance to cook fragile equipment such as scrolls).
I'm less likely to do so because the only person that's going to be hurt by it is the martial character, and because it's not in the rules.
It adds an uneven layer of more boning to those with a higher strength score (ironically) since the amount you can carry safely/easily climbs fast -- so that when you are hit in the strength score you drop fast too... but not the weight.
Add to this the fact it's at minimum a move action to draw and drop things that aren't weapons and longer for armor... yeah I disagree with the idea all the way around.
After all the wizard doesn't lose anything equivalent to intelligence penalties/damage or the rogue to dex penalties/damage -- suddenly the fighter can't hardly move (and in serve cases can't move at all) -- and all he did was build a viable character.
Well on the other side of the field, I'd probably rule that a wizard whose intelligence gets knocked down to lower that 10+the relevant spell level can't cast their spells. So its works both ways. Mind you, they don't lose them, they just can't cast them at that moment.
Well on the other side of the field, I'd probably rule that a wizard whose intelligence gets knocked down to lower that 10+the relevant spell level can't cast their spells. So its works both ways. Mind you, they don't loose them, they just can't cast them at that moment.
Which again (simply for those that might not have realized it yet... somehow) isn't how it currently works.
Personally I don't think it's needed.
Taking ability damage is already bad enough -- to lose your ability to cast and to be taking encumbrance on top of it is even worse.
At most a character will have a 60(ish) strength score -- and that's the best available with all sorts of work going into it. Compared to the average maximum stat of 36 -- at level 20. It doesn't take much to drop people with ability damage, and the penalties inflicted are steep enough without adding more on to them.
It simply hits the "this is too good of any option now" level for me.
Where is Dervish Dance? Can't seem to find that feat anywhere.
The Inner Sea Guide for Golarion.
It doesn't have to say that it lowers encumbrance, since encumbrance is DIRECTLY tied to the effective strength score, lowering that score is going to lower encumbrance.
Never said they did LazarX -- however that doesn't mean Str damage does something that it doesn't say it does -- like lower encumbrance, and str damage doesn't negate the effects of the cords/belt (which would be needed to end their effect so that it takes a new 24 hours to 'set' them again).
Again you are wrong.
Why do you persist in not looking at the rules before speaking?
A) You should try being polite.
B) You should also read the carry capacity section.
Encumbrance by Weight: If you want to determine whether your character's gear is heavy enough to slow him down more than his armor already does, total the weight of all the character's items, including armor, weapons, and gear. Compare this total to the character's Strength on Table: Carrying Capacity.
Encumbrance is based off your carried weight compared to your strength on the table. If you have a 21 str, and you put on a belt of physical might +4, your str is 25, and your encumbrance is then based off your current strength (no need to wait 24 hours, the rule is to compare your weight on the table based on str, not permanent str). Encumbrance isn't part of the permanent/non-permanent addition/loss. It's strictly a row on the encumbrance table, which determines your current encumbrance level. Mule Cords add +8 to your str for purposes of looking up numbers on this table. A MW backpack adds one for purposes of looking up on this table. If you have Bull's Strength, you gain +4 for looking up on the table. If you have lost 10 pts of str, you are down 10 lines on the table.
People keep treating encumbrance like it's a statistic. It's not. Your encumbrance is a state of being, just like exhaustion, dazed, and any other state that might negatively affect your character. As such, it's not listed under the effects of str bonus/loss. Because it is not a character stat, it's a status that fluctuates based on your load and str.
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Again I'm not looking at it from a PC against NPCs but an NPCs against PCs.
NPC hits the fighter with ray of exhaustion fighter fails and you are double boning him, once with the penalties from exhaustion again from hitting him with encumbrance -- which he suddenly has to figure in the middle of the fight.
All while the wizard that takes an Int penalty doesn't lose spells or spell levels.
Besides penalties aren't supposed to be that bad -- they areless than damage -- and damage doesn't do all that.
And NPCs have to carry equipment too.
1. The rules are the same, whether your a PC or NPC. Exhaustion is a nasty effect either way. Ray of Enfeelbement is nasty either way. A low strength just makes it that much rougher.
2. Figuring encumbrance is simple, you should already know how much your carrying, just cross reference that number to the weight allowance chart. Takes seconds.
3. You hurt the wizard with an int penalty. His DC's drop through the floor, making it all but impossible for his spells to stick. Furthermore, if his modified int is less than 10 + spell level he can't cast the spell, even if he has it memorized. A Magus who takes a minimal is going to eventually encounter this problem. Int drains are less common than str drains though.
4. Penalties are only less than damage until they cripple you. At that point, damage becomes irrelevant. Your not dealing and the other side is.
To put things in perspective, I've had players reduce a giant to the level of staggered commoner with debuffs. I've had NPC's do the same to frenzied berserkers. The rules work the same either way. Starting a character, especially one intended to be a front line fighter, with a 7 strength just makes you much more vulnerable to these effects than other front line fighters. Instead of needing multiple effects to become crippled, just one can do the job. Getting hit with a single effect is much, much more likely to happen than having multiples stacked on you.
Incorrect MDT (at least on the encumbrance rules) --
Ability Score BonusesSome spells and abilities increase your ability scores. Ability score increases with a duration of 1 day or less give only temporary bonuses. For every two points of increase to a single ability, apply a +1 bonus to the skills and statistics listed with the relevant ability.
Temporary BonusesStrength: Temporary increases to your Strength score give you a bonus on Strength-based skill checks, melee attack rolls, and weapon damage rolls (if they rely on Strength). The bonus also applies to your Combat Maneuver Bonus (if you are Small or larger) and to your Combat Maneuver Defense.
Dexterity: Temporary increases to your Dexterity score give you a bonus on Dexterity-based skill checks, ranged attack rolls, initiative checks, and Reflex saving throws. The bonus also applies to your Armor Class, your Combat Maneuver Bonus (if you are Tiny or smaller), and your Combat Maneuver Defense.
Constitution: Temporary increases to your Constitution score give you a bonus on your Fortitude saving throws. In addition, multiply your total Hit Dice by this bonus and add that amount to your current and total hit points. When the bonus ends, remove this total from your current and total hit points.
Intelligence: Temporary increases to your Intelligence score give you a bonus on Intelligence-based skill checks. This bonus also applies to any spell DCs based on Intelligence.
Wisdom: Temporary increases to your Wisdom score give you a bonus on Wisdom-based skill checks and Will saving throws. This bonus also applies to any spell DCs based on Wisdom.
Charisma: Temporary increases to your Charisma score give you a bonus on Charisma-based skill checks. This bonus also applies to any spell DCs based on Charisma and the DC to resist your channeled energy.
Permanent BonusesAbility bonuses with a duration greater than 1 day actually increase the relevant ability score after 24 hours. This might cause you to gain skill points, hit points, and other bonuses. These bonuses should be noted separately in case they are removed.
Note how encumbrance is not listed as something that gets adjusted? That means it doesn't get adjusted.
Only Permanent bonuses and Drain affects carrying capacity.
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Identifying any one magical item on an enemy is not easy, detect magic for 3 rounds and being able to study the item well enough to make an identify check would mean nearly certain death. Let's stop all the nonsense about DM vs player, its unnecessary, and only causes tension both in the thread and at the table. Min/maxing with 7 str is a possibility, but is definitely a risk, first through third Lvl there is a solid chance anyone who looks at you sees you as an easy target for theft or worse, so make sure to keep close to your friends! I do wish there were a few more intriguing choices when it came to blunt weapons and finesse, I love the idea of a lower str character going for the side of the knee and such.
Normally I would agree, but mule chords are specifically listed as having a visible effect.
With a visible effect, a knowledge check vs arcane would be sufficient.
It doesn't have to say that it lowers encumbrance, since encumbrance is DIRECTLY tied to the effective strength score, lowering that score is going to lower encumbrance.
Never said they did LazarX -- however that doesn't mean Str damage does something that it doesn't say it does -- like lower encumbrance, and str damage doesn't negate the effects of the cords/belt (which would be needed to end their effect so that it takes a new 24 hours to 'set' them again).
Again you are wrong.
Why do you persist in not looking at the rules before speaking?
A) You should try being polite.
B) You should also read the carry capacity section.
Encumbrance by Weight: If you want to determine whether your character's gear is heavy enough to slow him down more than his armor already does, total the weight of all the character's items, including armor, weapons, and gear. Compare this total to the character's Strength on Table: Carrying Capacity.Encumbrance is based off your carried weight compared to your strength on the table. If you have a 21 str, and you put on a belt of physical might +4, your str is 25, and your encumbrance is then based off your current strength (no need to wait 24 hours, the rule is to compare your weight on the table based on str, not permanent str). Encumbrance isn't part of the permanent/non-permanent addition/loss. It's strictly a row on the encumbrance table, which determines your current encumbrance level. Mule Cords add +8 to your str for purposes of looking up numbers on this table. A MW backpack adds one for purposes of looking up on this table. If you have Bull's Strength, you gain +4 for looking up on the table. If you have lost 10 pts of str, you are down 10 lines on the table.
People keep treating encumbrance like it's a statistic. It's not. Your encumbrance is a state of being, just like exhaustion, dazed, and any...
That's a VERY weird way to look at it, mate.
So, if a guy loses inteligence, wisdom, charisma or whatever, he can't cast spells either? Or AT LEAST looses his bonus ones, cause it's a table too?