[UC] Developers opinion on the Titan Mauler


Rules Questions

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Because out of the light martial weapons, the shortsword has the best damage dice/crit range combination.

Out of one-handed martial weapons, a Large scizore would be 2d8/x2.

If you want to look at exotic weapons, a Huge aklys would be 3d6/x2 with the Trip ability. A Huge wakizashi would be 2d6/18-20 x2. A Large Terbutje would be 2d8/19-20 x2.

Sczarni

the point is with the biggest weapon possable to use you are still doing close to the same damage as if you were using a greatsword as a normal barbarian of equal level.

The Exchange RPG Superstar 2014 Top 32

SunsetPsychosis wrote:

Because out of the light martial weapons, the shortsword has the best damage dice/crit range combination.

Out of one-handed martial weapons, a Large scizore would be 2d8/x2.

If you want to look at exotic weapons, a Huge aklys would be 3d6/x2 with the Trip ability. A Huge wakizashi would be 2d6/18-20 x2. A Large Terbutje would be 2d8/19-20 x2.

I took note of the Aklys too, but I would assume that it's damage of 1d8 at medium size is an error that will be changed eventually.


Can a Titan Mauler use two Double Hackbut 2d12 dmg (early firearms)? I would say it makes no sense to use range weapons with this archetype but some players believe that nothing prevent this.

Liberty's Edge

Kallahan11 wrote:
Mike Schneider wrote:
SunsetPsychosis wrote:
The problem being I'd first have to spend a feat on waraxe or bastard sword proficiency
You only need EWP if you're going to one-hand them (which you can't do anyway if they're large). Some DMs will house-rule you need EWP to two-hand a large one, but it's not a set-in-print rule (i.e., PFS doesn't require it).

To use a bastard sword as a martial weapon you have to use it two handed, to use a large bastard sword as a martial weapon you have to use it is one size larger than two handed, in other words you can't unless you have the exotic weapon proficiency.

"Description: Due to its size, a bastard sword is an exotic weapon. A character can use a bastard sword two-handed as a martial weapon."

The size of a bastardsword is "one-handed" -- that's the table it is under. (Whether it is exotic or not depending upon how you use it is immaterial.)

This has been argued to death before.

The iconic Pathfinder barbarian uses a large bastardsword.


1 person marked this as FAQ candidate.
Mike Schneider wrote:


To use a bastard sword as a martial weapon you have to use it two handed, to use a large bastard sword as a martial weapon you have to use it is one size larger than two handed, in other words you can't unless you have the exotic weapon proficiency.
"Description: Due to its size, a bastard sword is an exotic weapon. A character can use a bastard sword two-handed as a martial weapon."

The size of a bastardsword is "one-handed" -- that's the table it is under. (Whether it is exotic or not depending upon how you use it is immaterial.)

This has been argued to death before.

The iconic Pathfinder barbarian uses a large bastardsword.

I have started to question the argument about the whole one-handed to two-handed argument mainly because of a little item I found about oversized firearms in the UC. I have posted this in a different thread as well, but there are multiples of these threads and I could find this one before earlier.

Ultimate Combat pg. 136 wrote:
Inappropriately Sized Firearms: You cannot make optimum use of a firearm that is not properly sized for you. A cumulative –2 penalty applies on attack rolls for each size category of difference between your size and the size of the firearm. If you are not proficient with the firearm, a –4 nonproficiency penalty also applies. The size of a firearm never affects how many hands you need to use to shoot it, the exception being siege firearms and Large or larger creatures. In most cases, a Large or larger creature can use a siege firearm as a two-handed firearm, but the creature takes a –4 penalty for using it this way because of its awkwardness.


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
Mike Schneider wrote:

The size of a bastardsword is "one-handed" -- that's the table it is under. (Whether it is exotic or not depending upon how you use it is immaterial.)

This has been argued to death before.

The iconic Pathfinder barbarian uses a large bastardsword.

The iconic Pathfinder barbarian has Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Bastard Sword, which I take to imply Paizo's interpretation of that rule.

The Exchange

Having now read the Titan Mauler archetype it strikes me that the best thing about it isn't the weapons they can use, but the Evade Reach class feature. Used against a normal 5ft reach medium character it reduces them to 0ft reach Vs you, which means you get to dance circles around 'em, and that's just at level 5.

The Exchange

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Rulebook Subscriber
SunsetPsychosis wrote:

Because out of the light martial weapons, the shortsword has the best damage dice/crit range combination.

Out of one-handed martial weapons, a Large scizore would be 2d8/x2.

If you want to look at exotic weapons, a Huge aklys would be 3d6/x2 with the Trip ability. A Huge wakizashi would be 2d6/18-20 x2. A Large Terbutje would be 2d8/19-20 x2.

A Huge Sawtooth Sabre would be 3d6/19-20 x2


But you wouldn't be able to wield a huge Sawtooth Sabre. It's a one-handed weapon, so you could wield a Large one as a two-handed weapon with the same stats as a greatsword. It's only considered light for the purposes of Two-Weapon Fighting penalties, not for ease of overall use.

The Exchange

Yeah, that would only have worked about three versions of the Sawtooth Sabre ago... ;)


SunsetPsychosis wrote:
But you wouldn't be able to wield a huge Sawtooth Sabre. It's a one-handed weapon, so you could wield a Large one as a two-handed weapon with the same stats as a greatsword. It's only considered light for the purposes of Two-Weapon Fighting penalties, not for ease of overall use.

I don't think that is the case anymore if you look at my previous post.


Dual-wielding a shortsword and a greatsword worked out pretty well. I dug it.

I would've liked 40ft movement instead, but, eh. I used evade reach and my super will saves completely wrecked stuff.

I also almost barbarian died thanks to my AC being 13. Swallowed by a remorhaz and I took crazy burn damage. If I had remained I would've died. Good thing I made it out. Superstitious almost killed me-- if I had gone unconcious, I'd have to keep raging to not die, but I'd also have to make saves versus all healing spells... Dropping out of rage reduced me to 92 out of 93. Phew.

Liberty's Edge

Ice Titan wrote:
I also almost barbarian died thanks to my AC being 13. Swallowed by a remorhaz and I took crazy burn damage. If I had remained I would've died. Good thing I made it out. Superstitious almost killed me-- if I had gone unconcious, I'd have to keep raging to not die, but I'd also have to make saves versus all healing spells... Dropping out of rage reduced me to 92 out of 93. Phew.

And this, folks, is why discerning barbarians take Raging Vitality at 1st level -- don't leave home without it.

(Intense dislike of Superstition dealt with in other threads.)


Mike Schneider wrote:

And this, folks, is why discerning barbarians take Raging Vitality at 1st level -- don't leave home without it.

(Intense dislike of Superstition dealt with in other threads.)

Had it. Only taking Superstition so I can take Eater of Magic. It's funny.


ProfPotts wrote:
Having now read the Titan Mauler archetype it strikes me that the best thing about it isn't the weapons they can use, but the Evade Reach class feature. Used against a normal 5ft reach medium character it reduces them to 0ft reach Vs you, which means you get to dance circles around 'em, and that's just at level 5.

This seems like an unintended effect of the ability to me... should this be posted in the errata thread?


Zen79 wrote:
ProfPotts wrote:
Having now read the Titan Mauler archetype it strikes me that the best thing about it isn't the weapons they can use, but the Evade Reach class feature. Used against a normal 5ft reach medium character it reduces them to 0ft reach Vs you, which means you get to dance circles around 'em, and that's just at level 5.
This seems like an unintended effect of the ability to me... should this be posted in the errata thread?

Now that I read that I could see how it could be interpreted that way. However, I think according to RAW or RAI any creature the same size as the mauler, usually medium, would not need a 5 foot reach but would just need to be adjacent to the barbarian's square. Tiny creatures certainly don't have a 5 foot reach but they can make melee attacks at squares adjective to their own.

I am still surprised no one has commented on my previous post about Inappropriately Sized Firearms because if the number of hands vs size means nothing for a firearm then the same should apply to a melee weapon.

The Exchange

1 person marked this as FAQ candidate.
ItoSaithWebb wrote:
... Tiny creatures certainly don't have a 5 foot reach but they can make melee attacks at squares adjective to their own.

Nope. Core book, pages 194 to 195...

'... They must enter an opponent's square to attack in melee...'

and...

'... Since they have no natural reach, they do not threaten the squares around them...'

Being tiny sucks in melee! ;)

The Titan Mauler's Evade Reach only lasts until the end of his own turn anway - but it still means that the other guy can't use AoO against you at all... or even a Readied action to attack (unless he includes stepping into your square as part of that action... and then, of course, he provokes an AoO from you).


1 person marked this as FAQ candidate.
ProfPotts wrote:
ItoSaithWebb wrote:
... Tiny creatures certainly don't have a 5 foot reach but they can make melee attacks at squares adjective to their own.

Nope. Core book, pages 194 to 195...

'... They must enter an opponent's square to attack in melee...'

and...

'... Since they have no natural reach, they do not threaten the squares around them...'

Being tiny sucks in melee! ;)

The Titan Mauler's Evade Reach only lasts until the end of his own turn anway - but it still means that the other guy can't use AoO against you at all... or even a Readied action to attack (unless he includes stepping into your square as part of that action... and then, of course, he provokes an AoO from you).

Ya you are right, I forgot about the moving into the square thing. Yes this needs to be errata'd. I am pretty sure this was meant to be used against creatures with a greater reach of 5' feet.


ItoSaithWebb wrote:


I am still surprised no one has commented on my previous post about Inappropriately Sized Firearms because if the number of hands vs size means nothing for a firearm then the same should apply to a melee weapon.

No, because Firearms are special.


2 people marked this as a favorite.

It replaces trap sense. You are not going to break the game with an ability that replaces trap sense.


Starbuck_II wrote:
ItoSaithWebb wrote:


I am still surprised no one has commented on my previous post about Inappropriately Sized Firearms because if the number of hands vs size means nothing for a firearm then the same should apply to a melee weapon.

No, because Firearms are special.

I guess so, and quite unbalanced to boot because this means that a Titan Mauler could use a firearm that is huge with no penalties at level 12. I mean what would the increased damage of a Double hackbut when the medium size damage is 2d12. My only guess it would be 3d12 for large and then 4d12 for huge. Apparently this is not against the rules, because firearms are special, but to me this sounds even more unbalanced than a Titian Mauler wielding an oversized two-handed weapon because a melee weapon would at least gimp you in a lot of different situation like in small tight spaces, riding a horse and etc.

Sczarni

I wouls still like to get a developers oppinion on this.


ItoSaithWebb wrote:
Starbuck_II wrote:
ItoSaithWebb wrote:


I am still surprised no one has commented on my previous post about Inappropriately Sized Firearms because if the number of hands vs size means nothing for a firearm then the same should apply to a melee weapon.

No, because Firearms are special.
I guess so, and quite unbalanced to boot because this means that a Titan Mauler could use a firearm that is huge with no penalties at level 12. I mean what would the increased damage of a Double hackbut when the medium size damage is 2d12. My only guess it would be 3d12 for large and then 4d12 for huge. Apparently this is not against the rules, because firearms are special, but to me this sounds even more unbalanced than a Titian Mauler wielding an oversized two-handed weapon because a melee weapon would at least gimp you in a lot of different situation like in small tight spaces, riding a horse and etc.

But if you don't first brace the weapon (takes an action), you fall on your butt like J did on Men in Black with the Noisy Cricket (prone).


Starbuck_II wrote:


But if you don't first brace the weapon (takes an action), you fall on your butt like J did on Men in Black with the Noisy Cricket (prone).

Just curious, as it does sound reasonable, but is their RAW to support this?

Dark Archive

ItoSaithWebb wrote:
Starbuck_II wrote:


But if you don't first brace the weapon (takes an action), you fall on your butt like J did on Men in Black with the Noisy Cricket (prone).
Just curious, as it does sound reasonable, but is their RAW to support this?

Via Double Hackbut from UC

Double Hackbut: This double-length rifle uses a pair of
trunnions to mount its barrel into a swiveling mechanism
fastened to a lightweight, two-wheeled carriage. It takes
a full-round action to set up the carriage. The carriage
has a hind leg, allowing the wielder to wheel the device
about and immediately prop it for stability during
combat. Unlike other two-handed firearms, you must fire
the double hackbut while it is mounted, or else firing it
imparts a –4 penalty on attack rolls and the recoil knocks
the wielder prone. A Large or larger creature can fire a
double hackbut one size smaller than it is without its
mounting as a normal two-handed weapon and without
the danger of being knocked prone, but takes the normal
penalty for firing an inappropriately sized weapon.


Vehement1 wrote:
ItoSaithWebb wrote:
Starbuck_II wrote:


But if you don't first brace the weapon (takes an action), you fall on your butt like J did on Men in Black with the Noisy Cricket (prone).
Just curious, as it does sound reasonable, but is their RAW to support this?

Via Double Hackbut from UC

Double Hackbut: This double-length rifle uses a pair of
trunnions to mount its barrel into a swiveling mechanism
fastened to a lightweight, two-wheeled carriage. It takes
a full-round action to set up the carriage. The carriage
has a hind leg, allowing the wielder to wheel the device
about and immediately prop it for stability during
combat. Unlike other two-handed firearms, you must fire
the double hackbut while it is mounted, or else firing it
imparts a –4 penalty on attack rolls and the recoil knocks
the wielder prone. A Large or larger creature can fire a
double hackbut one size smaller than it is without its
mounting as a normal two-handed weapon and without
the danger of being knocked prone, but takes the normal
penalty for firing an inappropriately sized weapon.

Ahh OK, then it is weapon specific.


"At 3rd level, a titan mauler becomes skilled in the use of massive weapons looted from her titanic foes. The attack roll penalty for using weapons too large for her size is reduced by 1, and this reduction increases by 1 for every three levels beyond 3rd (to a minimum of 0)"

Seriously. This is awful. It leaves you able to wield a Huge Shortsword as a two-handed weapon with no penalty at level 12. ...when you could just be wielding a Greatsword at level 1 for the same amount of damage.

I don't know what the person writing this was intending, but someone should have caught the fact that at no point does this ability actually let you wield oversized weapons compared to what anyone could normally wield.


Cartigan wrote:

"At 3rd level, a titan mauler becomes skilled in the use of massive weapons looted from her titanic foes. The attack roll penalty for using weapons too large for her size is reduced by 1, and this reduction increases by 1 for every three levels beyond 3rd (to a minimum of 0)"

Seriously. This is awful. It leaves you able to wield a Huge Shortsword as a two-handed weapon with no penalty at level 12. ...when you could just be wielding a Greatsword at level 1 for the same amount of damage.

I don't know what the person writing this was intending, but someone should have caught the fact that at no point does this ability actually let you wield oversized weapons compared to what anyone could normally wield.

That's what most of us think, but up until now we had no word from the devs on this thing.


I said the same thing Carty said using rules quotes from the book. As written it does not work the way people want it too. It is actually written to prevent what people want it to do.

Here is the link

All this allows you to do is wield a two-handed weapon that is sized for the particular creature in one hand.


concerro wrote:

I said the same thing Carty said using rules quotes from the book. As written it does not work the way people want it too. It is actually written to prevent what people want it to do.

Here is the link

All this allows you to do is wield a two-handed weapon that is sized for the particular creature in one hand.

But since the weapon is no longer a light-weapon - it is a two-handed weapon being held one-handed - then it's completely pointless still. You can just use a properly sized Greatsword in one hand. The best use of Massive Weapons is either wielding a Large Bastardsword, Lance, or Dwarven Waraxe.


Cartigan wrote:
concerro wrote:

I said the same thing Carty said using rules quotes from the book. As written it does not work the way people want it too. It is actually written to prevent what people want it to do.

Here is the link

All this allows you to do is wield a two-handed weapon that is sized for the particular creature in one hand.

But since the weapon is no longer a light-weapon - it is a two-handed weapon being held one-handed - then it's completely pointless still. You can just use a properly sized Greatsword in one hand. The best use of Massive Weapons is either wielding a Large Bastardsword, Lance, or Dwarven Waraxe.

I agree with you which is why I dont care much for this ability. If you could actually wield a large sized weapon that would be different.

Scarab Sages

Quote:
In lands overrun by giants, dragons, and other hulking beasts, entire fellowships of barbarians hone tactics and traditions with one purpose—to bring low these massive foes. While her enemies’ size makes the creatures strong, the titan mauler is even stronger, taking up weapons from her fallen foes that no lesser warrior can lift, and using them when she beseeches the spirits to grant her increased size and greater ferocity against her titanic foes.

This makes one interpretation fairly obvious, if still a bit contradictory...

Levels 1-13 focus on becoming more effective at avoiding creatures with Reach, with some very lackluster options to wield two-handed weapons in one hand, or use one-handed/light weapons of Large/Huge creatures without penalty to attack (or increase in damage in most cases).

Then finally, at level 14 you can at long last Enlarge (on your own) and pick up the weapons of the fallen giants you're fighting and use them to finish off whatever's left in the battle (because anything you're carrying for the purpose of wielding when Enlarged would also be Enlarged, thus making it still-too-big for you to wield).

The only part that is contradictory to this is the fact that Massive Weapons negates a total -6 from oversized weapons, which is overkill since wielding a Huge Light Weapon is only two steps bigger, thus only a -4 Penalty.

I definitely agree that this needs errata/FAQ of some variety, but from the flavor text, that's how I'm interpreting the Devs' original intention. Using bigger weapons only when Enlarged. Is it dumb in that sense? Yes, because any of your current gear would just get sized up as well with all the normal proficiencies/enchantments.

Until the devs get a FAQ/Errata/Reply, I'm just house-ruling Massive Weapons something like the following:

Quote:


Massive Weapons: At Level 6 the Titan Mauler counts as a creature one size category larger for the purpose of being able to wield oversized weapons. At Level 12 this bonus increases another size category larger. Penalties for wielding oversized weapons (-2 per step) still apply as if the creature were their normal size. If the size penalty for wielding a weapon would exceed half the Titan Mauler's Strength bonus, they could not wield it (the additional penalty if wielding a two-handed weapon in one hand via Jotungrip is not factored here).

Ex.

A Medium sized Level 6 Titan Mauler can wield:
a Large Two-Handed weapon in two hands at -2 (18 STR) (or in one hand via Jotungrip at -4),
a Huge One-Handed Weapon in two hands at -4 (26 STR) (or in one hand at -6 via Jotungrip),
a Gargantuan Light Weapon in two hands at -6 (34 STR)(or in one hand at -8 via Jotungrip).

At level 12 the same Titan Mauler could also wield:
a Huge Two-Handed weapon in two hands at -4 (26 Str)(or in one hand via Jotungrip at -6),
a Gargantuan One-Handed weapon in two hands at -6 (34 STR)(or in one hand at -8 via Jotungrip),
a Colossal Light Weapon in two hands at -8 (42 STR)(or in one hand at -10).

The STR requirement limits the upper eschelon of what could be wielded to keep the really ridiculous basically out of reach, but it allows for more options. Might be pretty tough to reach 26 Str at level 12 to wield a Huge 2H weapon, but eh. Rough draft. Who knows how it'd play out =D I plan to give the option to the barbarian in my game (who is a Gnome, so all size categories will be effectively scaled down one -- which as a side note works much better, and even flavor-wise works considering gnome racials). I don't know that they'll go for it, but we'll see =D


It would just be easier to say at 6th level and every 6 levels there after, the Titan Mauler counts as one size category larger for the purpose of determining if penalties from wielding an inappropriately sized weapon applies, only applies to wielding weapons of a size category larger than the Titan Mauler can normally wield.

Scarab Sages

Cartigan wrote:
It would just be easier to say at 6th level and every 6 levels there after, the Titan Mauler counts as one size category larger for the purpose of determining if penalties from wielding an inappropriately sized weapon applies, only applies to wielding weapons of a size category larger than the Titan Mauler can normally wield.

It would be, but then you have Medium creatures wielding Colossal Light Weapons at level 12, and Colossal One-Handed at level 18. Even a Huge creature is 16-32 feet tall. A Huge Two-Handed Weapon could then be assumed to have a minimum size of 16 feet...that's just ridiculous as it is.

The more I think about it... I have a feeling this is probably a similar situation the Devs ran into in making the class make sense from any logical perspective (a 6 foot tall person wielding a 16 foot long Greatsword starts to break the suspension of disbelief, forget about Colossal [at 32ft min]) while still making the class cool.

Flavor Text and logical mechanics just don't match up, sadly.


Fireburnspaper wrote:


It would be, but then you have Medium creatures wielding Colossal Light Weapons at level 12, and Colossal One-Handed at level 18.

So? You could wield a Colossal Shortsword at level 12 at a -4, but so what? Isn't wielding stupid large weapons the point of this class?

Quote:
Even a Huge creature is 16-32 feet tall. A Huge Two-Handed Weapon could then be assumed to have a minimum size of 16 feet...that's just ridiculous as it is.

Using those calculations, a huge shortsword is 8 feet long. That's longer than a medium sized greatsword.

Quote:

The more I think about it... I have a feeling this is probably a similar situation the Devs ran into in making the class make sense from any logical perspective (a 6 foot tall person wielding a 16 foot long Greatsword starts to break the suspension of disbelief, forget about Colossal [at 32ft min]) while still making the class cool.

Flavor Text and logical mechanics just don't match up, sadly.

Trying to make it make sense from a logical perspective results in not making it. Either you are wasting paper or you make a class that does what it is clearly supposed to do.


Fireburnspaper wrote:
Cartigan wrote:
It would just be easier to say at 6th level and every 6 levels there after, the Titan Mauler counts as one size category larger for the purpose of determining if penalties from wielding an inappropriately sized weapon applies, only applies to wielding weapons of a size category larger than the Titan Mauler can normally wield.

It would be, but then you have Medium creatures wielding Colossal Light Weapons at level 12, and Colossal One-Handed at level 18. Even a Huge creature is 16-32 feet tall. A Huge Two-Handed Weapon could then be assumed to have a minimum size of 16 feet...that's just ridiculous as it is.

The more I think about it... I have a feeling this is probably a similar situation the Devs ran into in making the class make sense from any logical perspective (a 6 foot tall person wielding a 16 foot long Greatsword starts to break the suspension of disbelief, forget about Colossal [at 32ft min]) while still making the class cool.

Flavor Text and logical mechanics just don't match up, sadly.

Not counting spells, etc, realism and DnD part ways at about 6th level. After 6th you are playing a fantasy superhero game. At 8th level, your average fighter is stronger than any real person in recorded history. Monks and barbarians of that level can leap 10-20 feet straight up. 11th level rangers can hide in an open field in broad daylight. 10th level rogues can disappear from people who are looking intently right at them.

In summation, wielding absurdly big weapons after 6th level is not a stretch.


Anburaid wrote:
Fireburnspaper wrote:
Cartigan wrote:
It would just be easier to say at 6th level and every 6 levels there after, the Titan Mauler counts as one size category larger for the purpose of determining if penalties from wielding an inappropriately sized weapon applies, only applies to wielding weapons of a size category larger than the Titan Mauler can normally wield.

It would be, but then you have Medium creatures wielding Colossal Light Weapons at level 12, and Colossal One-Handed at level 18. Even a Huge creature is 16-32 feet tall. A Huge Two-Handed Weapon could then be assumed to have a minimum size of 16 feet...that's just ridiculous as it is.

The more I think about it... I have a feeling this is probably a similar situation the Devs ran into in making the class make sense from any logical perspective (a 6 foot tall person wielding a 16 foot long Greatsword starts to break the suspension of disbelief, forget about Colossal [at 32ft min]) while still making the class cool.

Flavor Text and logical mechanics just don't match up, sadly.

Not counting spells, etc, realism and DnD part ways at about 6th level. After 6th you are playing a fantasy superhero game. At 8th level, your average fighter is stronger than any real person in recorded history. Monks and barbarians of that level can leap 10-20 feet straight up. 11th level rangers can hide in an open field in broad daylight. 10th level rogues can disappear from people who are looking intently right at them.

In summation, wielding absurdly big weapons after 6th level is not a stretch.

I just wish the archetype gave the barbarian "powerful build" and jotungrip. Leave those two in there, and forget the rest. Scale what's necessary to balance it and just leave it. Or, maybe make a rage power that lets you wield weapons one size larger while raging.

I honestly think one size category difference is enough, because a huge greatsword would have a hilt almost as big around as a small tree. There's just no way I can get behind that...


Foghammer wrote:
I honestly think one size category difference is enough, because a huge greatsword would have a hilt almost as big around as a small tree. There's just no way I can get behind that...

So would a huge shortsword, and any medium-sized character can wield that (albeit with a penalty).


I seriously wish they just called it Powerful Build and/or Monkey Grip and left it at that. Even wielding a 4d6 Huge greatsword isn't insanely overpowered. A fighter can add a lot more static damage to a hit than the average of 6 extra damage above a normal greatsword, with more accuracy to boot.


SunsetPsychosis wrote:
I seriously wish they just called it Powerful Build and/or Monkey Grip and left it at that. Even wielding a 4d6 Huge greatsword isn't insanely overpowered. A fighter can add a lot more static damage to a hit than the average of 6 extra damage above a normal greatsword, with more accuracy to boot.

Well they have done any errata yet. Perhaps they are writing it now but it would be nice to hear from them. We need more people to mark this thread for FAQ.


SunsetPsychosis wrote:
I seriously wish they just called it Powerful Build and/or Monkey Grip and left it at that. Even wielding a 4d6 Huge greatsword isn't insanely overpowered. A fighter can add a lot more static damage to a hit than the average of 6 extra damage above a normal greatsword, with more accuracy to boot.

Granted, high-dice weapons become very interesting with Vital Strike since there are now a lot more of the suckers rolling around.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

Cartigan's suggestion in unrealistic and overpowered- however, it is definitely at least the DIRECTION this should have gone. The problem is that reducing the damned penalty doesn't help much- the issue is that you are still limited to wielding the same sized weapons. Here I'm using size as in, total number of inches. A huge shortsword is presumably similar in size to a medium greatsword. Certainly, a regular old fighter can pick up either, and use the both with two hands. They even deal the same base damage! The greatsword is better at this task, as you would suspect, because it lacks a to-hit penalty.

This clown? His only benefit is essentially ignoring that to-hit penalty. Which buys him flavor, and an obscure weapon. Isn't this guy supposed to be more than that?

Simply put, this class is phrased as if he uses larger weapons. Even being able to use just "large" weapons would actually be a buff, because then you could access, say, wielding a Large Greatsword. Even with a penalty, this is something a normal class can't do, so maybe that could have been the bonus instead.


I would suggest removing the old restriction on size away from this archetype but put a new one on them that they can only use a weapon three times removed for light weapons, two times removed for one handed weapons, and only one times removed for two-handed weapons. You would still incur the normal penalties however which would be reduced by levels in the class. This way the archetype is viable but less overpowering if the restriction was just removed entirely.

Example a medium sized Titian Mauler could wield up to:

A Large Two-handed Weapon (from a medium two-handed)

A Huge One-Handed Weapon (from a medium one handed)

A Gargantuan Light Weapon (from a medium light)

On a side note, currently by RAW it is possible for the mauler to wield a Gargantuan Light Weapon, but there are some light weapons that are actually quite long and I think that they might end up being a reach weapon.

If the increase was only 50% per size difference then a whip which is normally 72 inches long ( bull whips range from 6 to 7 feet) would end up being 180 inches long ( almost 15 feet long). Now whips already have reach because of their lengths but at 15 feet long I think that reach would increase dramatically, at least a 10 foot reach.

A Shang Gou: which is normally 33 inches long would be 82.5 inches long ( almost 7 feet long). Since a whip is normally between 6 and 7 feet long then this weapon should be able to get the reach quality at this size.


ItoSaithWebb wrote:

I would suggest removing the old restriction on size away from this archetype but put a new one on them that they can only use a weapon three times removed for light weapons, two times removed for one handed weapons, and only one times removed for two-handed weapons. You would still incur the normal penalties however which would be reduced by levels in the class. This way the archetype is viable but less overpowering if the restriction was just removed entirely.

Example a medium sized Titian Mauler could wield up to:

A Large Two-handed Weapon (from a medium two-handed)

A Huge One-Handed Weapon (from a medium one handed)

A Gargantuan Light Weapon (from a medium light)

That's exactly the same as the current restriction, if they were treated as Large instead of Medium for determining what size weapons they could wield.

Quote:

On a side note, currently by RAW it is possible for the mauler to wield a Gargantuan Light Weapon, but there are some light weapons that are actually quite long and I think that they might end up being a reach weapon.

If the increase was only 50% per size difference then a whip which is normally 72 inches long ( bull whips range from 6 to 7 feet) would end up being 180 inches long ( almost 15 feet long). Now whips already have reach because of their lengths but at 15 feet long I think that reach would increase dramatically, at least a 10 foot reach.

A Shang Gou: which is normally 33 inches long would be 82.5 inches long ( almost 7 feet long). Since a whip is normally between 6 and 7 feet long then this weapon should be able to get the reach quality at this size.

It's actually not possible for him to wield Gargantuan weapons, I believe. Even if he could, reach is a property of the weapon, not the size, and you only get reach if the weapon is appropriately sized for you. So wielding a 15' long longsword doesn't give you any more reach than wielding a small dagger. Does it make sense? Not really, but it's what the rules say.


Bobson wrote:


That's exactly the same as the current restriction, if they were treated as Large instead of Medium for determining what size weapons they could wield.

It's actually not possible for him to wield Gargantuan weapons, I believe. Even if he could, reach is a property of the weapon, not the size, and you only get reach if the weapon is appropriately sized for you. So wielding a 15' long longsword doesn't give you any more reach than wielding a small dagger. Does it make sense? Not really, but it's what...

Actually no it isn't exactly the same as the current restrictions because the going argument has been that you can't have a medium size creature use a large two-handed weapon because it changes it to other than a two-handed weapon.

CRB page 144 wrote:

Inappropriately Sized Weapons: A creature can’t make

optimum use of a weapon that isn’t properly sized for it. A cumulative –2 penalty applies on attack rolls for each size category of difference between the size of its intended wielder and the size of its actual wielder. If the creature isn’t proficient with the weapon, a –4 nonproficiency penalty also applies.

The measure of how much effort it takes to use a weapon (whether the weapon is designated as a light, one-handed, or two-handed weapon for a particular wielder) is altered by one step for each size category of difference between the wielder’s size and the size of the creature for which the weapon was designed. For example, a Small creature would
wield a Medium one-handed weapon as a two-handed weapon. If a weapon’s designation would be changed to something other than light, one-handed, or two-handed by this alteration, the creature can’t wield the weapon at all.

Now personally I do not agree with the going argument that a large two-handed sword is something other than a two-handed weapon because A it makes no sense because it is not changing to something other than a two-handed weapon as there is no category above that and B the Ultimate Combat talks about Inappropriately Sized Fire arms that is contrary to the CRB.

UCB page 136 wrote:

Inappropriately Sized Firearms: You cannot make optimum use of a firearm that is not properly sized for you. A cumulative –2 penalty applies on attack rolls for each size category of difference between your size and the size of the firearm. If you are not proficient with the firearm, a –4 nonproficiency penalty also applies. The size of a firearm never affects how many hands you need

to use to shoot it, the exception being siege firearms and Large or larger creatures. In most cases, a Large or larger creature can use a siege firearm as a two-handed firearm, but the creature takes a –4 penalty for using it this way because of its awkwardness.

Now someone said earlier that this was a special case for just firearms, but that makes no sense because I use to teach how to fire weapons in the Marine Corps. and size does make a difference.

As for the reach deal. I am not disagreeing with you about RAW but I think this should be an errata now for that because of both this archetype class and it just plain makes sense that it would work that way.

One thing I can't stand is dogmatic thinking.

The Exchange

Pathfinder whips have a 15ft reach anyway, no size-boost needed.

Silver Crusade

An elegant answer to the problem would be to allow this archetype to exceptionally threaten with a reach depending on it's oversized weapons, in addition to the ability to wield weapons at least one size larger. So you could wield a two-handed medium weapon as a one-handed weapon without reach with a -2 malus to attack ; a large two-handed weapon as a two-handed weapon (penalty from oversized weapon) without reach ; a one-handed huge weapon as a two-handed weapon (penalty from oversized) with 10 feet threaten zone, or a gargantuan light weapon as a two-handed weapon (penalty from oversized) with 15 feet threaten zone.
A real giant killer !

Now you would actually have a reason to wield a huge short sword, even if it meant -3 or -4 to your attack roll, and it follows the way large and huge creatures with weapons fight, since I don't know about you but I never saw any giant using daggers when a hammer or axe could do the trick...


ProfPotts wrote:
Pathfinder whips have a 15ft reach anyway, no size-boost needed.

Wow I didn't know that! That is long. However there is a reason to size boost and that is the damage increase, especially if you wanted to follow the whip mastery line which is not a bad idea because you could mess up larger creatures from a distance.

Normal whip made Gargantuan would do 1d8 points of damage from 15 feet away.

Scorpion Whip made Gargantuan would do 2d6 of damage from 15 feet away. Then make sure you have enough ranger levels to get some casters levels and cast lead blades and then you are doing 3d6 points of damage from 15 feet away. Then be really evil and have an item that has enlarge person charges or have a friend cast it on you so that you then do 4d6 points of damage from 20 feet away with each hit! Then be really evil and get the entire trip line of feats in addition to the trip mastery line.


ItoSaithWebb wrote:
Bobson wrote:


That's exactly the same as the current restriction, if they were treated as Large instead of Medium for determining what size weapons they could wield.

It's actually not possible for him to wield Gargantuan weapons, I believe. Even if he could, reach is a property of the weapon, not the size, and you only get reach if the weapon is appropriately sized for you. So wielding a 15' long longsword doesn't give you any more reach than wielding a small dagger. Does it make sense? Not really, but it's what...

Actually no it isn't exactly the same as the current restrictions because the going argument has been that you can't have a medium size creature use a large two-handed weapon because it changes it to other than a two-handed weapon.

You didn't read the other half of the sentance: if they were treated as Large.

A medium creature can, by using both hands, wield a medium two handed weapon, a large one handed weapon, or a huge light weapon. A large creature can wield a large two handed weapon, a huge one handed weapon, or a gargantuan light weapon.

Therefore, if a medium Titan mauler could:

Quote:

Example a medium sized Titian Mauler could wield up to:

A Large Two-handed Weapon (from a medium two-handed)

A Huge One-Handed Weapon (from a medium one handed)

A Gargantuan Light Weapon (from a medium light)

then that's exactly the same as what they would be able to wield if they were large, or counted as it.

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