[UC] Developers opinion on the Titan Mauler


Rules Questions

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Posting to rekindle this issue. The Titan Mauler as it is just doesn't sit right with me for some reason. The lack of errata or FAQ on Massive Weapons is a tad depressing.


In this case, you probably should have started a new thread, since this one is already marked as having been added to the FAQ:

FAQ wrote:

Titan Mauler: Does the Jotungrip class feature (page 30) allow the Titan Mauler to use oversized weapons?

No. Jotungrip allows the titan mauler to use two-handed melee weapons in one hand, but only if the weapon is appropriately sized for the character. The massive weapon class feature allows her to use oversized weapons with decreased penalty, but does not allow her to use two-handed weapons of that size in one hand.

Update Page 30, in the titan mauler archetype, in the Jotungrip class feature, in the first sentence, insert the word "melee" between "two-handed" and "weapon."

What question is left? It's an archetype that has mechanics that fail at matching its flavor, but all the mechanics are nice and clear.

Silver Crusade

1 person marked this as FAQ candidate.

You may find both the revisited, fixed archetype PLUS the official developer's opinion/fix for the archetype on this document. :)

Hope it helps !


Maxximilius wrote:

You may find both the revisited, fixed archetype PLUS the official developer's opinion/fix for the archetype on this document. :)

Hope it helps !

I like your fix, and thanks for the link to Jason's post. Now it just needs to be made into official errata...


also want to add one more coment on pleas fix the titan mauler, as is only the invulnerable rager is the only viable barbarian archtype

i think they might increase the penaltys to ATK to balance larger weapons to make the avrage damage equal to other melee classes like monk or fighter but if you want a barb with a bigg weapon all you can do is wield a large batard sword wich isnt enough for me wielding a large bastard sword is in my opinion the limit tho as others are saying wielding a huge bastard sword is just not normal as the weapon's size is just absurd compared to a medium creature


Necro this, cause im a little confused.

By using a huge greatsword, i would get alot of penalties for wielding it as a normal char but with this archtype, i am able to reduce this penalty?

So... What happens when i am using titanic rage then?

Im not asking about jotungrib, it's way more cooler to wield a Big mean wepon with power attack or vital strike.


A medium creature cannot wield a huge greatsword. Greatsword is a 2-h weapon and the "handedness" steps up by 1 category for each size difference to big it is. So a Large 1-h weapon becomes a 2-h weapon for a medium and a Huge light weapon also becomes a 2-h weapon for a medium. Huge 1-h and 2-h weapons would be "too unwieldy" to handle, disregarding entirely the attack penalty; they'd require a category higher than two-handed. Even if you used Titanic Rage, you'd be a Large creature and still couldn't wield a Huge 2-h weapon; it'd have to be a Huge 1-h weapon, tops and even that, you could only wield while in Titanic Rage and it must be on the ground first because if it's on your person, it grows along with you. So, if you're a medium-sized Titan Mauler, you could have a medium Greatsword and wield it 1-handed with Joutungrip, you could have a large Longsword or a huge Dagger and wield it 2-handed with reduced penalty though Massive Weapons, and you could have a huge Longsword, drop it on the ground, use Titanic Rage, then pick it up again and use it, also with reduced penalty.


Hm.... That just sounded awkward and silly. So a large greatsword would normally give me -2 for it's size but because some other rules, that aint possible?? Then what is the point of even indcludeing a rule for wepon size penalties if aint possible because of inapprobite size? You can wield a large wepon with penalties but you can't? That is just plain inlogical.


Well, i gotta stick with maxximilius's work. It made more sense.


the largest weapon any M charachter can wield is a large bastard sword weighing 12lb

consider it to be huge weighing 24 lbs

and we are not saying to need to lift it you need to be able to wield it comfotable meaning swinging it changing direction mid air! with a grip 2 sizes to large for your hands practicly strugling to hold it with 2 hands! its just not feasable. but look at the iconic barbarrian that large bastard sword looks like a buster sword anywayz!

Sczarni

Starfinder Charter Superscriber

The rules are there because sometimes, in the course of adventuring, you come across things that weren't built specifically for you.

Fighting a Hill Giant? Why would he be wielding a medium-sized club?

A horde of blood thirsty halflings? They're probably going to be wielding small-sized knee cappers.

A medium character can wield a large-sized, one-handed weapon in both hands with a -2 penalty, or a small-sized, two-handed weapon in one hand with the same penalty. For small characters that means wielding a medium-sized, one-handed weapon in two hands with a -2 penalty, or a tiny-sized, two-handed weapon in one hand with the same penalty.

Does that help?


2 people marked this as a favorite.
northbrb wrote:

I think that the Titan Mauler's Massive Weapon abillity is nice and all but you wont be gaining anything from it unless you are weilding a gargantuan dagger, something anyone can do now but with a penalty to attack. Who would choose to build a character using this weapon and what do they really gain by doing so?

Titan Mauler / Knife Master. "Now THATS a knife".


I think there should be special rules for weapons that are larger than 2-h; such as taking a full-round attack to make a single swing with it. It'd be like a big, super-macho guy swinging around a huge log as a weapon, using his whole arms to handle it. So long as it doesn't weigh so much that you can't physically lift it, it should be feasible.

Sczarni

Starfinder Charter Superscriber

There is a special rule regarding such weapons...

Spoiler:
You can't wield them.


Bobson wrote:
What question is left? It's an archetype that has mechanics that fail

Indeed.


Nefreet wrote:

There is a special rule regarding such weapons...

** spoiler omitted **

That whistling sound you heard was my point sailing over your head. We already know, by current rules, you are completely unable to use a weapon that would fall above the category of 2-h. I'm saying it should be changed because it is conceivable to swing around a piece of wood so big you need to wrap both arms around it to be capable of swinging it around. There's already rules where throwing a 2-h weapon is a full-round action so it's not much of a stretch to streamline the rules to allow for swinging a >2-h weapon as a full-round action for a single swing, if it really comes down to that. If your life is in danger, you'll swing around whatever you can lay hands on.

Sczarni

Starfinder Charter Superscriber
Kazaan wrote:
it is conceivable to swing around a piece of wood so big you need to wrap both arms around it to be capable of swinging it around.

Conceivable in real life, or conceivable in Pathfinder?

If my life is in danger, I'm probably going to reach for a small rock or a dagger-sized stick, or something else similarly easy to wield, and not the tree stump that grandfather left in the earth because it was too big for his tractor to pull out.

The example you give is just another attempt at utilizing the improvised weapon rules to make a case for wielding a weapon larger than the rules allow. It's been done before, and every time it is left wanting. The rules are in place because it is easily conceivable (in Pathfinder) to abuse the use of anything larger than a 2H weapon. If there wasn't something advantageous about it, you wouldn't be arguing for it.

If you want a rule to be changed, this is the wrong forum (and thread) for it. Feel free to mount a campaign, take a poll, and petition your ideas to the developers for Pathfinder 2.0. Until then continue to houserule as you please, while the majority of the rest of us will be happy swinging our medium-sized greatswords and earthbreakers.


"the largest weapon any M charachter can wield is a large bastard sword weighing 12lb

consider it to be huge weighing 24 lbs

and we are not saying to need to lift it you need to be able to wield it comfotable meaning swinging it changing direction mid air! with a grip 2 sizes to large for your hands practicly strugling to hold it with 2 hands! its just not feasable. but look at the iconic barbarrian that large bastard sword looks like a buster sword anywayz!"

the dwarven longhammer weighs in at 20 pounds for a medium size weapon. only four pounds less than a huge bastard sword. the titan mauler lets not forget is an archetype that trains specifically with over size weapons and the way they weild a large great sword (or even a huge bastard sword) would probably be more like using a polearm (like a halbard or a maul) would nomally be used with the characters arms spread wide apart along the hilt and usin the muscle of the whole body to deliver blows. they deffinitely wouldnt be agile by any deffinition but thats not the point of the titan mauler their job is to hit big things with big things.


my fix as a 12 year DM:

Drop the Titanic Rage ability and make a new ability that would be like the Massive Weapons ability. Make it level progressive pertaining to the wielders size increasing for the purposes of wielding inappropriately sized weapons.

For Example:

Titanic Weapons (Ex):

At 8th level and every four levels beyond 8th the wielder is considered one size category larger for the purposes of wielding oversized weapons.

8th level - Large
12th level - Huge
16th level - Gargantuan
20th level - Colossal

This ability replaces your rage power at the level in which you gain a new size category.

But with new ability comes new problems, the Jutengrip ability becomes more powerful, because with another size category for the wielder means you can wield a larger sized two-handed weapon in one hand. So just add the word "Medium" into the Jutengrip ability, and take out "The weapon must be appropriately sized for her.", like so.

Jotungrip (Ex)

At 2nd level, a titan mauler may choose to wield a Medium two-handed melee weapon in one hand with a –2 penalty on attack rolls while doing so. and it is treated as one-handed when determining the effect of Power Attack, Strength bonus to damage, and the like.

This ability replaces uncanny dodge.

This fix would allow wielding of greater sized weapons while keeping the core rules for inappropriately sized weapons preserved and still keeping the penalty for wielding such weapons. If you wanted to instill harsher penalty's still, you could add While Raging to the requirements of using such an ability.

As for it not being feasible to wield such a weapon, I would like to remind others that this is a fantasy game and it is based on level progression further into the fantastic. That's why I would allow it as long as it was a progressive ability. Besides I think with all the magic in a fantasy setting, you should be able to find a way to wield such a enormous weapon. lighter materials, magical weapon abilities, but most of all pure epic class ability should be enough to satisfy anyone and their frigid realistic outtake on a fantasy RPG game.

Hope this helps.


I always see Titan Mauler as Cloud from Final fantasy 7. You have been training with a huge shortsword all this time, you can fight really well with it. But then you face someone who is taller than you and so hard to hit. Damn it Sephiroth! Now I pull one of my normal shortsword from my huge shortsword. With my two weapon fighting feats tree and improve critical with shortsword, I hope I can land some hit on that guy. With both shortsword that have 17-20/x2 crit, I have 20% chance to crit him. With two weapons fighting, I can do more attacks. With Massive weapons and weapon focus, I have higher chance of confirm my crits. And Jotungrip allow me to hold my huge shortsword in one hand. Awesome!

Now imagine what I can do with kukri... That's what I could see as it is now. But I do wish Massive weapon would allow me to use one weapon one size larger as if it was normal in term of using it when using it with two hands. Now it would be cool.


SiuoL wrote:
And Jotungrip allow me to hold my huge shortsword in one hand. Awesome!

No, it doesn't jotungrip only applies to weapons sized for you.

But you could TWF with a large sized shortsword and a normal sized shortsword. And the massive weapons ability would reduce the penalties for the large one.

SiuoL wrote:


Now imagine what I can do with kukri... That's what I could see as it is now. But I do wish Massive weapon would allow me to use one weapon one size larger as if it was normal in term of using it when using it with two hands. Now it would be cool.

What some see as cool is silly and immersion breaking for others. The archetype works as written without breaking any fundamental rules as set in the CRB.


Umbranus wrote:
SiuoL wrote:
And Jotungrip allow me to hold my huge shortsword in one hand. Awesome!

No, it doesn't jotungrip only applies to weapons sized for you.

But you could TWF with a large sized shortsword and a normal sized shortsword. And the massive weapons ability would reduce the penalties for the large one.

SiuoL wrote:


Now imagine what I can do with kukri... That's what I could see as it is now. But I do wish Massive weapon would allow me to use one weapon one size larger as if it was normal in term of using it when using it with two hands. Now it would be cool.
What some see as cool is silly and immersion breaking for others. The archetype works as written without breaking any fundamental rules as set in the CRB.

Hm... I think you are right. Then I can't see much benefit of being a titan mauler... If Jotungrip gives you ability to use a two-handed weapon in one hand. It's harder to hit exchange for deal extra 1d6 damage compare to normal shortsword. But then you can't use it with messive weapon because it just doesn't work with weapon bigger than yours. So if you use messive weapon as a huge shortsword as two handed weapon, you can do it without penalty, but you can do the same with a greatsword with no penalty in the first place. Two fundamaental feature of being a titan mauler doesn't work with each others and have almost no benefit at all. Doesn't make sense to me...


You can use a twohanded weapon in one hand which others can't and you have less penalty for using an oversized weapon. Both abilities work, they just don't work with each others. But there are other classes that can't use all their abilities at once, too.

It is like the monk who can use either fast movement or flurry of blows.


What if Jotungrip just said that you treat yourself as one size category larger for the purposes of wielding melee weapons?


Then it would be possible to wield a large two-handed weapon. But paizo seems not to want this to be possible.
Thanks Paizo for that.


Umbranus wrote:

Then it would be possible to wield a large two-handed weapon. But paizo seems not to want this to be possible.

Thanks Paizo for that.

Yes, heaven forfend that those filthy martials deal ridiculous damage. That privilege is reserved for shapechangers.

Also, it wasn't an editorial decision from Paizo, it was the writer failing his Craft: RPGs roll (and the editor too for not catching it).


Pupsocket wrote:
Umbranus wrote:

Then it would be possible to wield a large two-handed weapon. But paizo seems not to want this to be possible.

Thanks Paizo for that.

Yes, heaven forfend that those filthy martials deal ridiculous damage. That privilege is reserved for shapechangers.

I would have no problem with weapon specialization giving +4 instead of 2 or similar tings. But I very much dislike the idea of using oversized weapons. Has nothing to do with the damage they deal. I would even dislike it if they dealt the same damage as normal sized weapons.

Pupsocket wrote:
Also, it wasn't an editorial decision from Paizo, it was the writer failing his Craft: RPGs roll (and the editor too for not catching it).

If that was the case they could have changed it later. Or they could have made a feat like monkey grip. Or they could have used another of a multitude of possibilities to add the ability to wield oversized two-handed weapons. That they did not do any of those tells me that I am right with my claim that they do not want it to be possible.

(With the exception of the writer who wrote the archetype.)


Umbranus wrote:


What some see as cool is silly and immersion breaking for others. The archetype works as written without breaking any fundamental rules as set in the CRB.

It is actually a total flavor failure. Using a huge dagger or something? That is total nonsense.

Also, to summarize your opinion, wizards creating living ice pit fiends, teleporting thousands of miles, flying into the sky, creating entire planes of existence are all a-ok, 100% fine, perfectly in flavor.

Using a sword that is pretty big? No way, my verisimilitude is broken!

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