Is there anything in Ultimate Combat to help with this? I have a new guy who seems insistent on trying it, but I already know how it is going to go down.
Win init, do sneak attack on round 1, then not be so useful for the rest of the fight.
I am thinking of sending him over to the scout from 3.5 and/or suggesting the feat form 3.5 that stacks the scout and rogue classes for the purpose of skirmish, but I am trying to avoid 3.5 material until all other options are exhausted.
I played a Ninja during the playtest and used the invisibility and greater invisibility ninja tricks to sneak attack at range. The plan isn't foolproof, but it allowed me to get my ranged sneak attacks off most of the time.
EDIT: At that time greater invisibility was unavailable until level 10 so until then I would usually use a bow in round one and then a katana the rest of the fight. (having a grease-happy arcane caster helped my bow antics as well). Drow is an ideal race for the build if you allow it.
I will bring that up when I get Ultimate combat, in about a week or so.
Illusions might help as well, in particular a barrier that obscures the rogue from sight.. an illusionary wall of fog or fire for example wouldn't make anyone too suspicious. This would make the rogue benefit from 'invisibility' and freely SA as long as the enemies fail to disbelieve.
Grease might also be nice to get some SA off, or an ally willing to use/invest in greater feint, invisibility and greater invisibility in particular are good ofcourse, as well as effects that can blind or stun foes (monks, color spray, glitterdust, blindness), the sniping rules might work.. a goblin has a racial bonus to stealth, a size bonus and a high dex, if I am not mistaken, if the player takes skill focus stealth might work, was there an archetype to snipe from a greater range ?
Potentially invest in bluff, so the player can attempt to distract and hide, tanglefoot bags might make it easier to maintain a decent distance between foes and assist the party with other things than damage..
End rant, not sure if there is anything useful, I was just trying to come up with stuff..
Is it imperative that the player get the SA every round?
Nope. He will probably need to SA enough to feel useful, which means past round 1 more than 50% of the time even if it is only 2 out of 3 or 4 rounds on average.
If he can't get the SA in he will not be bypassing DR at certain times, and that probably won't be too fun.
Illusions might help as well, in particular a barrier that obscures the rogue from sight.. an illusionary wall of fog or fire for example wouldn't make anyone too suspicious. This would make the rogue benefit from 'invisibility' and freely SA as long as the enemies fail to disbelieve.
Grease might also be nice to get some SA off, or an ally willing to use/invest in greater feint, invisibility and greater invisibility in particular are good ofcourse, as well as effects that can blind or stun foes (monks, color spray, glitterdust, blindness), the sniping rules might work.. a goblin has a racial bonus to stealth, a size bonus and a high dex, if I am not mistaken, if the player takes skill focus stealth might work, was there an archetype to snipe from a greater range ?
Potentially invest in bluff, so the player can attempt to distract and hide, tanglefoot bags might make it easier to maintain a decent distance between foes and assist the party with other things than damage..End rant, not sure if there is anything useful, I was just trying to come up with stuff..
He is an elf, and the party currently has no real arcane caster.
Monk, same player might also run a cleric or run a cleric instead
Rogue
Paladin
Barbarian
Sniping might work. I never thought to consider it. I think there is an ability(source unknown) which makes it so that the sniping penalty is cut in half. I will have to find it though. I dont remember if it was Pathfinder or 3.5.
It is a halfling trait. -10 on the sniping penalty. Then at level 10 he can take the rogue talent for another -10. Sniping limits you to 1 attack per round though.
It is a halfling trait. -10 on the sniping penalty. Then at level 10 he can take the rogue talent for another -10. Sniping limits you to 1 attack per round though.
There might be some creative ways to get more out off a standard action, I remember something with ricochet.. maybe Vital Strike, and ofcourse it is your highest AB attack, so it doesn't have to be horrible. Even if it is one attack, if it is a SA you can probably boost it up possibly poison and other nasty things.. like bleed, hamstring, strength damage.. still hard to imagine it working well enough
Also, Rouge Eidolon has a great guide for rouges that will cover everything in the CRB as far as sneak attacking at range.
Link to the guide Here
If the person in question is only worried about damage and nothing else have him play an archery fighter or archery ranger.
Build your Rogue with Str and Dex about the same and buy a MW Composite Shortbow.
I'd like to second the sniper suggestion, being able to hit a dude from greater than 30 ft with sneak attack is pretty rad.
The trick is catching your foes flat footed, or finding other ways to trigger sneak attack outside of invisibility.
The guide suggest having the melee dude of the party pick up shatter defenses, which renders foes flat footed after Dazzling display/what have you. I'd also suggest they pick up Curnugeion Smash (feat from Cheliax Empire of Devils) so they'll be able to intimidate and deal damage at the same time. This should create a nice instance of focus fire.
Another option, is to pick up the scout archetype. The fisrst ability allows you to charge and deal sneak attack damage, so charge with your bow/ x-bow and fire. (the charging rules don't say you have to end next to your opponent, just within range). The scout's 8th level ability allows you to move 10 feet in any direction, and give you sneak attack.
A third option (now available through ultimate combat) is to have a gunslinger in the party. Get them to use the grit ability that renders foes flat-footed, and procede to shred.
Also, Rouge Eidolon has a great guide for rouges that will cover everything in the CRB as far as sneak attacking at range.
Link to the guide Here
If the person in question is only worried about damage and nothing else have him play an archery fighter or archery ranger.
The kid wants his rogue. He may be about to be disappointed though. I will give my last bit of advice tomorrow.
I am thinking of sending him over to the scout from 3.5 and/or suggesting the feat form 3.5 that stacks the scout and rogue classes for the purpose of skirmish, but I am trying to avoid 3.5 material until all other options are exhausted.
Well, if you chose to allow 3.5 material, then have him aim to take Deadeye Shot from the Player's Handbook II; allowing him to ready a single sneak attack every round. Combine it with the over-the-top Craven feat from Champions of Ruins to grant the rogue his hit dice in extra damage on every sneak attack.
That'd certainly allow him to hold his own in combat. I built such a character for my S.O. For a game we both play (combined with a short bow of subtlety) and she's easily the party's heavy hitter.
Give him some mistmail and take a very liberal understanding of the concealment = stealth check rules.
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Definitely Sniping, with all said above especially the limitation on doing a single attack, however some feats do have synergy with this, for exampe Bullseye Shot in Faiths of Purity.
Also, he will definitely need the Sniper Goggles from the APG asap (even though they are quite expensive : 20k gp).
Note that the Goggles make the main advantage of the Sniper Archetype (from APG) obsolete, unless you houserule that the extended range for Sneak Attack that it provides applies to the range where you get the +2 bonus to sneak damage dice provided by the Goggles.
Stay hidden as long as possible. And for when the enemy sees you, use the following :
- Major Magic talent : Vanish (spell from the APG). Get Quicken SLA for it asap.
- Ninja Trick talent (from UC) : Vanishing Trick. Note that it will require having a ki pool to use it, either from taking the Ki Pool talent (also from UC) or taking levels in Monk.
In fact, I believe that being a Ninja rather than a Rogue (and taking the Rogue talents as Ninja tricks) will be far more efficient than the other way around because you begin play with a ki pool (and based on CHA rather than WIS) and you get access to the Master Tricks, which include such nice things for a ranged sneak attacker as Invisible Blade (the Greater Invisibility mentioned above) as well as Advanced Rogue Talents (though it is unclear if you can take it more than once), while a Rogue cannot take a Ninja Master trick, even with an advanced talent.
Note however that since the Ninja does not get Trapfinding nor Trap Sense, he cannot take Rogue Archetypes that replace these features (ie, no Sniper Ninja, for example).
From UC, you might also find the following interesting :
- Chameleon Archetype : good at Stealth, better IMO than the Sniper unless you houserule the latter as suggested above. Not usable by a Ninja, though (as it replaces Trapfinding that they lack)
- Terrain Mastery talent : gives you a Ranger's favored terrain bonuses (and you can increase them in the same way a Ranger does by taking the talent several times)
- Hide in Plain Sight advanced talent : in a single terrain, but can be taken several times fro more terrains
Finally, if you, as a GM, are open to 3pp products, you may be interested by the Spell-less Ranger from Kobold Quarterly (issue 11) by Mark Radle, as it loses the spellcasting abilities but gets some nice things in return, including a sneak attack (but limited to favored terrain or favored enemies). Be aware though that this class was released before the APG (and all its nice new Ranger spells) came out. Mark and the KQ have stated that they will put out a follow-up with new Ranger Talents, but I do not know when they plan to release it (soon I hope).
BTW : as any Archer, your guy will have a hard time with Incorporeal foes, as the Ghost-touch weapon quality is melee-only. He should make sure he has some good melee abilities in addition to being a ranged machine of death
Why does he want to play a rogue?
If he envisioned his character and thought "yeah, sounds like a rogue" he might not want the rogue class itself but the fluff of it which you also can get via other options - one level dip rogue, urban ranger... (usual archer build which does damage by rapid shot/manyshot in tons of full attacks)
If it's about the sneak attack, he should know the problems with that.
Ask him how he pictures himself delivering sneak attacks
I am thinking of sending him over to the scout from 3.5 and/or suggesting the feat form 3.5 that stacks the scout and rogue classes for the purpose of skirmish, but I am trying to avoid 3.5 material until all other options are exhausted.Well, if you chose to allow 3.5 material, then have him aim to take Deadeye Shot from the Player's Handbook II; allowing him to ready a single sneak attack every round. Combine it with the over-the-top Craven feat from Champions of Ruins to grant the rogue his hit dice in extra damage on every sneak attack.
That'd certainly allow him to hold his own in combat. I built such a character for my S.O. For a game we both play (combined with a short bow of subtlety) and she's easily the party's heavy hitter.
I know what craven is and that one is not getting into the game because I make feats available for everyone or no one, and I don't want anyone else to have it. I will look at deadeye shot.
Why does he want to play a rogue?
If he envisioned his character and thought "yeah, sounds like a rogue" he might not want the rogue class itself but the fluff of it which you also can get via other options - one level dip rogue, urban ranger... (usual archer build which does damage by rapid shot/manyshot in tons of full attacks)If it's about the sneak attack, he should know the problems with that.
Ask him how he pictures himself delivering sneak attacks
I have no idea why he chose a rogue, and he is brand new. He just learned to make a character on his own so I am sure he has no idea what he is getting into.
I think this is one of those learn on the job things.
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Why does he want to play a rogue?
If he envisioned his character and thought "yeah, sounds like a rogue" he might not want the rogue class itself but the fluff of it which you also can get via other options - one level dip rogue, urban ranger... (usual archer build which does damage by rapid shot/manyshot in tons of full attacks)If it's about the sneak attack, he should know the problems with that.
Ask him how he pictures himself delivering sneak attacksI have no idea why he chose a rogue, and he is brand new. He just learned to make a character on his own so I am sure he has no idea what he is getting into.
I think this is one of those learn on the job things.
I think a rogue would be a fantastic tool for teaching a player to make tactical moves in combat, using sneak attack as motivation.
I think a rogue would be a fantastic tool for teaching a player to make tactical moves in combat, using sneak attack as motivation.Why does he want to play a rogue?
If he envisioned his character and thought "yeah, sounds like a rogue" he might not want the rogue class itself but the fluff of it which you also can get via other options - one level dip rogue, urban ranger... (usual archer build which does damage by rapid shot/manyshot in tons of full attacks)If it's about the sneak attack, he should know the problems with that.
Ask him how he pictures himself delivering sneak attacksI have no idea why he chose a rogue, and he is brand new. He just learned to make a character on his own so I am sure he has no idea what he is getting into.
I think this is one of those learn on the job things.
If he was a melee rogue then that might work, but as an archer I dont really see it. With 2 players suddenly switch to night shift it may not matter though. I need to go out recruiting again to fill a vacant spot.
Is it imperitive that the player get the SA every round?That's like asking if it's imperative that a fighter get to use his Trained/Focused/Specialized/Magicked weapon every round.
Indeed. It is certainly imperative to get sneak attack every round (if not every hit) to justify choosing a rogue as your class.
A longbow will help remediate this somewhat, but you would still need to be able to sneak attack once per round to be doing slightly less damage than TWF + 2 sneak attacks.
Prerequisites: Int 13, Combat Expertise.
Benefit: You are considered to be flanking an opponent if at least two of your allies are threatening that opponent, regardless of your actual positioning.
Normal: You must be positioned opposite an ally to flank an opponent.
Have one of the other players take this feat and your rogue has no more problems. (It is admitedly sad that someone else has to "fix" the rogue, but this would be somewhat true whether melee or ranged.)
If he dips 3 lvls into ftr he can use the archer archetype from the APG to do ranged feints. It's something I've wanted to build for a while.
Have one of the other players take this feat and your rogue has no more problems. (It is admitedly sad that someone else has to "fix" the rogue, but this would be somewhat true whether melee or ranged.)
I don't believe flanking works for ranged attacks.
EDIT: this was FAQ'd
Gang Up: Does this feat (page 161) allow you to flank a foe with ranged weapons?
The Gang Up feat allows you to count as flanking so long as two of your allies are threatening your opponent. The feat makes no mention of ranged attacks being included, and since flanking specifically refers to melee attacks, ranged attacks do not benefit from this feat. (JMB, 8/13/10)—Jason Bulmahn, 08/13/10
Is it still possible to feint as a move action then get sneak attack on your standard action?
I know something like this was possible in 3.5, have paid close attention to feinting in PF.
Yes, at the cost of two feats.Is it still possible to feint as a move action then get sneak attack on your standard action?
I know something like this was possible in 3.5, have paid close attention to feinting in PF.
standard feint is only for melee attacks though. Only the Ftr Archer archetype has ranged feint as an option.
Gang Up: Does this feat (page 161) allow you to flank a foe with ranged weapons?
The Gang Up feat allows you to count as flanking so long as two of your allies are threatening your opponent. The feat makes no mention of ranged attacks being included, and since flanking specifically refers to melee attacks, ranged attacks do not benefit from this feat. (JMB, 8/13/10)—Jason Bulmahn, 08/13/10
Thanks for correcting me. What an incredibly poorly worded feat--it makes no mention of melee or ranged. But faq'd is faq'd I guess. (Much like the rogue.)
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Scout Archetype.
Elf.
Dex>Str>Con.
Longbow, Point Blank, Precise, Deadly Aim.
It'll take until level 8, but having essentially skirmish makes it work.
My PC is currently this exact setup in RotRL, & was one-shotting or two-shotting ogre all throughout Hook Mountain Massacre.
Definitely achievable, just takes a little char-gen finesse.
Thanks for correcting me. What an incredibly poorly worded feat--it makes no mention of melee or ranged. But faq'd is faq'd I guess. (Much like the rogue.)
yeah I've become used to looking very closely at feats and abilities that grant att bonuses or boons...as most only effect melee attacks (cavalier i'm looking at you!) because I like playing archer types.
the options to SA at range are very limited (other than the initial win the initiative). Personally, I like the idea of a knife fighter who throws knives and then closes in with feinting or flanking as possible rogue or ninja ranged build.
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If he was a melee rogue then that might work, but as an archer I dont really see it. With 2 players suddenly switch to night shift it may not matter though. I need to go out recruiting again to fill a vacant spot.I think a rogue would be a fantastic tool for teaching a player to make tactical moves in combat, using sneak attack as motivation.Why does he want to play a rogue?
If he envisioned his character and thought "yeah, sounds like a rogue" he might not want the rogue class itself but the fluff of it which you also can get via other options - one level dip rogue, urban ranger... (usual archer build which does damage by rapid shot/manyshot in tons of full attacks)If it's about the sneak attack, he should know the problems with that.
Ask him how he pictures himself delivering sneak attacksI have no idea why he chose a rogue, and he is brand new. He just learned to make a character on his own so I am sure he has no idea what he is getting into.
I think this is one of those learn on the job things.
The best build for a Rogue sniper is to have him take 1 level of Oracle at 1st level and choose the Waves Mystery, and then choose Water Sight as his Revelation. Then he can take all Rogue levels after that. At the beginning of every combat, he casts Obscuring Mist (using his Oracle level, or from a wand or something of the like) and then he can shoot from within the obscuring mist with no penalties since his Water Sight lets him see through the mist, but no one else can see into the mist so he can get SA. There are obviously situations where this won't work (tight quarters, etc.) but for getting the most SA with a ranged rogue, there's no better build that I know of.
you could us the scout archetype from the APG works kinda like the scout from 3.5
The person is happy not doing damage, at least for now. We should have the first game next weekend. Thanks everyone.
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you could us the scout archetype from the APG works kinda like the scout from 3.5
Bingo.
Just played my Elf Scout-Rogue (Level 11 now) last night in Rise of the Runelords Chapter 4.
He was the predominant damage dealer, except for the crazy odd crit from the melee guy.
Things that really, really help out:
Bard. Hands down, having the static +'s to hit, damage, and saves make me able to hang with the big boys.
Skirmisher. Move 10', Shoot, get Sneak Attack. This ability, more than anything (other than above Bard) allows for consistent damage output. As a bonus, it conserves arrows.
Spell-assistance. With a Wizard, Witch, and Bard in the party, there's often plenty of buffs being tossed around. Greater Invisibility, Haste, and the whole suite of "oh, yeah!" buffs the Bard adds make for an awesome combo.
Add all that to Skill Mastery, decent AC, and a decidedly "craven" style of combat, and he's a survivor, sniper, scout, and all-around scoundrel in combat.
If you really want to get the sneak attacks in at range, take the improved feint feat. it allows a feint as a move action, and with enough ranks in bluff you'll never fail, except on a one. You said he was an elf, have you considered a multiclass into fighter (archer), and take the weapon focus, specialization, and ranged weapon mastery? to tp it off take the feats required to have multi-shot, and throw in the bleeding sneak rogue talent. He will probably be the primary damage dealer, and other players might be resentful, but if he wants to get the most out of it, that is definitely the way to go. Also, being an elf gives him access to the elven archery perk, but only if the character chooses to multiclass fighter.
edit: sorry about being years too late. I didnt even look at the post dates.
The person is happy not doing damage, at least for now. We should have the first game next weekend. Thanks everyone.
you explained how much rogue talents aren't as cool as they look right?
Unholy necromancy!
didn't even notice HAHAHA
Unholy necromancy!didn't even notice HAHAHA
Silly me, I completely forgot to mention the "Bow Feint" feat.
Type: General, Fighter
Source: Dragon #350
You can mislead an opponent in combat from a distance.
Prerequisite: Int 13, Point Blank Shot.
Benefit: You may feint an opponent with a ranged attack as a standard action. Your opponent must be able to see you and be within 30 feet. You must have a ranged weapon readied (and loaded, if applicable). To feint, make a Bluff check opposed by your target's Sense Motive check. The target adds his base attack bonus to this Sense Motive check. If your Bluff check result exceeds your target's Sense Motive check result, the next ranged attack you make against that target does not allow him to use his Dexterity bonus to AC (if any). This attack must be made on or before your next turn. When feinting in this way against a nonhumanoid opponent you take a -4 penalty. Against a creature of animal Intelligence (1 or 2), you incur a -8 penalty. Feinting against a nonintelligent creature is impossible.
Special: A fighter may select Bow Feint as one of his fighter bonus feats.
Normal: Feinting involves a melee attack against the target.
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Other options include odd choices of race. My current rogue in the works for PFS is a Tiefling rogue who'll cast the daily Darkness spell on her bow during the big 'end' fights of dungeons. That should roughly duplicate the Obscuring Mists trick as listed above, without having to dip into Oracle.
Of course, it won't work on everything, and there could be issues with non-darkvisioning people. And once per day means I really need to make it count. But hopefully it will keep me worth bringing along until the Scout archetype can really hit its stride.
Unfortunately, 3.5 feats from a 8 year old issue of dragon that wasn't included in any book is not going to be legal for most pathfinder GMs.
Also, I just realized that the feat is pointless. I knew I chose feint for a reason, ant level 3 archer can choose a combat maneuver to perfom with a bow, and feint is among those allowed. granted, you have to waste an arrow to do it, but the sneak attack damage seems well worth it, especially with greater manyshot(recommend at higher levels, though not required to be high level.) where you get to apply sneak damage to EVERY arrow fired (also applies to skirmish damage if that's more your thing.)
scout is an option, but I'm still going to defend my case on Rogue/fighter(archer) I threw in the bit about skirmish damage, because it is treated the same way as sneak attack, by greater many-shot. the real point is to load up as many bonus dice as you can(which is why manyshot is inferior)
You also look at things like the Oathbow, and the bracers of sworn vengeance, and you will be doing massive damage without crits(even more if you do!!!) the sad part about those little gems, is that you have to be an elf to get the benefits from them( I am, but not everybody likes to use an elf for their ranged attacker)
Also, I just realized that the feat is pointless. I knew I chose feint for a reason, ant level 3 archer can choose a combat maneuver to perform with a bow, and feint is among those allowed.I still don't see how you're getting past the restriction to melee attacks in the feint rules.
Because It allows you to perform actions with a bow that other characters could only perform at close range, such as disarm, feint, sunder, bull rush,grapple and trip.
The only drawback is that each of these uses arrows, because it is more along the idea of you fired it, but the arrow is performing the maneuver.
e.g. an arrow knocks an opponent's weapon from their hand, or trips your opponent, or perhaps CAUSES THEM TO MOVE IN JUST THE MANNER YOU DESIRE, SO YOU CAN CATCH THEM UNAWARE TO YOUR NEXT ATTACK(a feint) it's a mechanics rule that isn't that hart to understand. Is it really so hard for you to believe that a skilled fighter (the only class that can do this) can manipulate his enemy at range, and gain the same effect, as someone would in a melee fight?