Merry Jingoism, one and all!
RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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Oh and by the way, 'Divineshadow', historically Victorian England's 'obsession' with Christmas (and their royal family's Germanic customs for the season like the Christmas tree) infected the US, not the other way around.
My understanding is that, in the early 1800's neither England nor her American children did much to celebrate Chrsitmas. But there were some German and Netherlands communities which did.
Christmas in America suggests that much of the 'Victorian' push for Christmas can be laid at the feet of Washington Irving. Fresh from an extended European visit, Irving began publishing his serialized "Sketch Book" in 1819. It included - along with "Legend of Sleepy Hollow" and "Rip Van Winkle", the Fifth Installment: five essays which outlined the Chrstmas traditions of a ficticious "Bracebridge Hall" in England, attributing a combination of some German traditions, Pennsylvania Dutch celebrations, and the English traditions from 150 years previous to his Squire Bracebridge's family.
The Sketch Book was a hit in America, and one of the first pieces of American literature to be well received in Europe. Charles Dickens read it, and credited Irving with his own renewed interest in celebrating Christmas.
It's a ploy by ninjas to lure out Santa before winter so he won't have his snowgolem bodyguards.
Ninjas hate Christmas.
I think you've been fooled by anti-ninja propaganda. It's the pirates that hate Christmas (they want Santa's booty, er, that is, his gifts, I mean the toys and stuff...), after all.
Ninja's love Santa. Who do you think trains the snow golems?
Oh and by the way, 'Divineshadow', historically Victorian England's 'obsession' with Christmas (and their royal family's Germanic customs for the season like the Christmas tree) infected the US, not the other way around.My understanding is that, in the early 1800's neither England nor her American children did much to celebrate Chrsitmas. But there were some German and Netherlands communities which did.
Christmas in America suggests that much of the 'Victorian' push for Christmas can be laid at the feet of Washington Irving. Fresh from an extended European visit, Irving began publishing his serialized "Sketch Book" in 1819. It included - along with "Legend of Sleepy Hollow" and "Rip Van Winkle", the Fifth Installment: five essays which outlined the Chrstmas traditions of a ficticious "Bracebridge Hall" in England, attributing a combination of some German traditions, Pennsylvania Dutch celebrations, and the English traditions from 150 years previous to his Squire Bracebridge's family.
The Sketch Book was a hit in America, and one of the first pieces of American literature to be well received in Europe. Charles Dickens read it, and credited Irving with his own renewed interest in celebrating Christmas.
Interesting. I had heard that the Hanover royal family, having imported several customs from their native Germany, were some of the first 'high profile' people to celebrate with a Christmas tree. A woodcut published in a London paper of Queen Victoria, Prince Albert and family celebrating the season under a brightly-lit tree became wildly popular. In an effort to copy the royals, Victorians started killing small trees en masse and covering them in candles and tinsel.
Merry Jingoism, one and all!
And to all a good autophobia!
Absolutely KC. Just as J.R. has every right to dislike his dislike.Digitalelf is getting a little wild-eyed and ranty with all the WWI / WWII / UN stuff, but "tired of the "Let's Hate on America" band-wagon" is something I can agree with. The automatic knee-jerk anti-US reactionary attitude is getting old. Go back and read the first two posts in this thread and then tell me that it isn't just precious.Actually, I'm pretty sure Smitter has every right to dislike his own country.Thanks Patrick.
And no one even remotely mentioned whether anyone has or doesn't have the right to say anything? So I'm not sure where this is coming from.
Certainly, nobody said we don't have the right. But since Smitter is American, he can safely mock his own country. It shouldn't be an issue. I mock America all the time, we're a queer breed.
Now please stopHehe, careful what you wish for! If America was completely out of the picture, how long do you think it would take for one of the more aggressive (and powerful) nations to steam-roll its way across Europe?
Who's going to stop them; The United Nations, with their silly blue helmets?? They call upon us when the pooh starts to really fly!
But of course what do I know, I'm just an arrogant American...
-That One Digitalelf Fellow-
America: We're the only ones who can fight. What an...interesting perspective. :P
Sad news always makes me want to....
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Now please stopHehe, careful what you wish for! If America was completely out of the picture, how long do you think it would take for one of the more aggressive (and powerful) nations to steam-roll its way across Europe?
Who's going to stop them; The United Nations, with their silly blue helmets?? They call upon us when the pooh starts to really fly!
But of course what do I know, I'm just an arrogant American...
-That One Digitalelf Fellow-
LOL, the part you quote was directly for you, not a generalisation. I should have made that clearer. :D
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I take issue with the whole thought of christmas. It's roots, IIRC, were in the druidic winter solstice celebration, and it was borrowed by the early church as a way to ease conversions of said druids. Not to mention that, even if this is disregarded, it has lost any meaning it once had.
No holidays have any of their meaning anymore...they're just a reason for retailers to get their hands on more of your money. Hell, they've even managed to get to thanksgiving (black friday). The fact that during the holidays people are often more stressed about having money to buy stuff for their families than they are about finding a way to spend time with their family really says alot.
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RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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I take issue with the whole thought of christmas. It's roots, IIRC, were in the druidic winter solstice celebration, and it was borrowed by the early church as a way to ease conversions of said druids. Not to mention that, even if this is disregarded, it has lost any meaning it once had.
Druids? Seriously?? The Gauls suppressed by the pagan Roman government in the first century? That's why Christmas was set in December three centuries later? Color me incredulous.
And I invite you to any Christmas Midnight Mass or morning service to see whether it retains any spiritual meaning.
I agree, that there's a lot of Currier & Ives / White Christmas / Momma Kissing Santa Claus folderoll mucking up late November and December. But the heart of the secular holiday is still a call to turn away from our shell of "I want" and ask, if only once a year, and perhaps only in terms of wrapped presents, what other people might want.
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America: We're the only ones who can fight. What an...interesting perspective. :P
[sarcastic rant] Gee, that's exactly what I meant...
I had no idea what-so-ever that other counties had standing armies of their own...
So glad you made such a insightful (and helpful) post ;-p
no, really, I mean it...
I wonder though...
Who helps significantly to train many of these armies (at the nation's request)?
Who helps to significantly to equip many of these armies (again, at the nation's request)?
Couldn't possibly be the United States could it!?
I mean why would anybody possibly want our help in the defense of their nation??
Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm.............[/sarcastic rant]
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the heart of the secular holiday
Christmas a secular holiday?
Okay...
But since when has anybody (in this county at least) ever tried so hard to suppress anything (or even aspects of anything) "secular"?
They throw out phrases such as: "take the Christ out of Christmas"...
Then there is the whole "Happy Holidays" vs. "Merry Christmas"...
I mean, if Christmas is so secular, why would anybody be offended with someone telling them to have a "Merry Christmas" (unless it's in fact, not a secular holiday)?
Unless you're from Mars (or outside the US), when someone says to us "Happy Holidays", they are indeed actually telling us to have a "Merry Christmas" (with a VERY few exceptions)...
I don't know of any stores that have a great Hanukah sale every November/December do you (we all know they are preparing for December 25th)?
Color me incredulous...
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I take issue with the whole thought of christmas. It's roots, IIRC, were in the druidic winter solstice celebration, and it was borrowed by the early church as a way to ease conversions of said druids. Not to mention that, even if this is disregarded, it has lost any meaning it once had.Druids? Seriously?? The Gauls suppressed by the pagan Roman government in the first century? That's why Christmas was set in December three centuries later? Color me incredulous.
And I invite you to any Christmas Midnight Mass or morning service to see whether it retains any spiritual meaning.
I agree, that there's a lot of Currier & Ives / White Christmas / Momma Kissing Santa Claus folderoll mucking up late November and December. But the heart of the secular holiday is still a call to turn away from our shell of "I want" and ask, if only once a year, and perhaps only in terms of wrapped presents, what other people might want.
Yule or Yule-tide is a winter festival that was initially celebrated by the historical Germanic peoples as a pagan religious festival, though it was later absorbed into, and equated with, the Christian festival of Christmas. The festival was originally celebrated from late December to early January on a date determined by the lunar Germanic calendar. The festival was placed on December 25 when the Christian calendar (Julian calendar) was adopted. Scholars have connected the celebration to the Wild Hunt, and some have theorized a connection to the Roman festival of Saturnalia.
Pagan, not druid if you want to get technical.
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I take issue with the whole thought of christmas. It's roots, IIRC, were in the druidic winter solstice celebration, and it was borrowed by the early church as a way to ease conversions of said druids. Not to mention that, even if this is disregarded, it has lost any meaning it once had.Druids? Seriously?? The Gauls suppressed by the pagan Roman government in the first century? That's why Christmas was set in December three centuries later? Color me incredulous.
And I invite you to any Christmas Midnight Mass or morning service to see whether it retains any spiritual meaning.
I agree, that there's a lot of Currier & Ives / White Christmas / Momma Kissing Santa Claus folderoll mucking up late November and December. But the heart of the secular holiday is still a call to turn away from our shell of "I want" and ask, if only once a year, and perhaps only in terms of wrapped presents, what other people might want.
Oi!
Don't forget a lot of Easter's 'traditions' were stolen from the Pagan New Year and All Saint's Day was 'placed' the day after All Hallows Eve to try and subsume it too (although that one failed miserably, IMHO).
Certainly, nobody said we don't have the right.
Your statement earlier:
Actually, I'm pretty sure Smitter has every right to dislike his own country.
implies (to me at least, maybe I've read too much into it) that you felt his rights were being infringed. Or at least questioned. It seemed to come across to Patrick the same as well.
But since Smitter is American, he can safely mock his own country. It shouldn't be an issue. I mock America all the time, we're a queer breed.
Just to be clear, my issue isn't the critisism itself, it's:
The automatic knee-jerk anti-US reactionary attitude
Which I believe is quite apparent in the first three posts.
I would much rather read two pages of interesting discussion regarding holiday origins or modern consumer/commercialism than just "hurf durf Americans". It's lazy drive-by posting.
I tend to stay out of political discussions on forums. It's a policy that's served me well so far. But I felt compelled to comment on this.
Good job contributing to the problem! Your arrogant outburst made me adjust my opinion of Americans downward a bit.So, it's arrogant to be fed up with all the hate aimed at my country??
Note that the two posters who aimed that hate at your country were both from your country.
The whole "we're better than you, without us, you'd be nothing" crap is what makes you a jerk.
We do more for the world (as a nation, and as a people) to help those in need (be it from famine, war, natural disaster, or what have you) than any other nation...
Oh, and you can prove that claim?
And all we get for our trouble is:I am so sorry that american retardation has inffected the uk.
Whose trouble? Do you personally rescue all those nations from all sorts of disaster? You're insulting the rest of the world over something one of your fellow Americans said.
For me, that sounds like pounding on any excuse to engage in some jingoism.
Could we please stop it with all the hate? It's the Christmas Season, after all!!!
Aaah! I can see the Plan now: Year after year, move the start of that season forward a bit (maybe a week) until sometime soon, it's ALWAYS christmas! Good cheer and charity all year round! (And crass capitalism, of course).
No. KaeYoss, being German gets a pass and can Godwin whatever the hell he feels like. It's in the fine print.Who Godwin'd? Did I miss it? I thought nazi's or hitler needed to be referenced or compared in order to invoke the law.It's one thing to criticise your own country, and another entirely to Godwin a thread about Christmas.
Mal davon abgesehen: Ich spreche sowieso Deutsch. Ist daran irgendwas schlechtes?
It was a Stealth Godwin. Even though the N word, or the H word/guy, were never mentioned by name, it was hard not to hear the words be shouted after the lament of those soldiers who died by the aggressor's hands.
That, after couple of U.S. Americans professe dislike for their own country (or some of its attitudes) on a thread about Christmas, where it was absolutely necessary, is as good as just going to shout HITLER NAZI HITLER NAZI.
Let's make Mulled Wine - i have a great way of doing it
Can I have mine chilled? It's quite warm here.
I also have how to make Mulled Vodka, but i've not been brave enough to try it
That's new to me, but I know of jelly made with vodka instead of water.
The whole "we're better than you, without us, you'd be nothing" crap is what makes you a jerk.
Exactly. I think he actually believes that without the USA, the world would fall to tyranny. That's...special.
The automatic knee-jerk anti-US reactionary attitudeWhich I believe is quite apparent in the first three posts.
The first three posts:
While having a walk round this shops this morning, I have discovered something almost too horrible to recount
one of the shops (a card/giftwrap shop) has put out it's christmas display
Nothing at all about the US.
well it is august, what the F^*$. America just get greedier every year
Yes, there it is. But you know, the guy's an American. It's not exactly "European ingratitude" or anything like that. It's a guy who doesn't like his own country.
this is in the UK, not the US!
Yes, "US" is in there, but no hate. He merely clarifies that he doesn't talk about the US. He doesn't lay any blame on the US.
You see, the only "knee-jerk anti-US reactionary attitude" comes form Americans there.
That's the first three posts. And after that, everything else that is said against America is from people who don't mention their nationality, so making assumptions to support your theory is dishonest.
One of them apologises for America's greed, which means to me that in all likelyhood, he's American. Otherwise, he wouldn't apologise for that any more than I'd Apologise for, say, something India does. (Not that I want to imply that India does or doesn't do something bad. If India doesn't suit you, insert any other country that isn't Germany).
I would much rather read two pages of interesting discussion regarding holiday origins or modern consumer/commercialism than just "hurf durf Americans". It's lazy drive-by posting.
And I'd much rather read anything other than some guy taking a fellow countryman's rant as an excuse to insult a whole continent. Because that's plain hate mongering.
The whole "we're better than you, without us, you'd be nothing" crap is what makes you a jerk.Exactly. I think he actually believes that without the USA, the world would fall to tyranny. That's...special.
I don't exactly see anyone else beating the snot out of the Iranians in the foreseeable ten years (except maybe Israel if the USA gets a few pony nukes) should they overstep their bounds.
As a side note, as an ex-sailor of the USN, I always believed that the greatest DNA to have horizontal refreshment with was stock that was homogenized through port cities and urban areas with a large influx of new people.
As long as you can do what you enjoy and don't infringe on my existence, I won't make you a martyr.
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Note that the two posters who aimed that hate at your country were both from your country.
The whole "we're better than you, without us, you'd be nothing" crap is what makes you a jerk.
Name calling...
That's... Precious...
And here I thought we could have a heated debate without crawling head-first into the sewers...
My bad I guess...
Oh, and you can prove that claim?
Um, more people per capita than any single European Country...
Oh wait, I'm sorry, that's not tangible proof is it...
Whose trouble? Do you personally rescue all those nations from all sorts of disaster? You're insulting the rest of the world over something one of your fellow Americans said.
For me, that sounds like pounding on any excuse to engage in some jingoism.
Where did I say that America does anything alone like some solo superhero??
What I said was, we are a major contributor (the proverbial "lion's share" if you will)...
Oh, wait, that's more jingoism isn't it??
I was going to go on a rant defnding America and Americans and give examples of how we helped the world. However this would just add fuel the fire. I will only say this, an American company has given you Pathfinder so how bad can we Americans really be? Can we all go back to being friends now?
<tongue in cheek>But Pathfinder is a derivative of D&D which is a derivative of miniature war gaming which is based on European land wars, so shouldn't we be thanking Napoleon for Pathfinder?</tongue in cheek>
Certainly, nobody said we don't have the right.Your statement earlier:
Actually, I'm pretty sure Smitter has every right to dislike his own country.implies (to me at least, maybe I've read too much into it) that you felt his rights were being infringed. Or at least questioned. It seemed to come across to Patrick the same as well.
But since Smitter is American, he can safely mock his own country. It shouldn't be an issue. I mock America all the time, we're a queer breed.Just to be clear, my issue isn't the critisism itself, it's:
The automatic knee-jerk anti-US reactionary attitudeWhich I believe is quite apparent in the first three posts.
I would much rather read two pages of interesting discussion regarding holiday origins or modern consumer/commercialism than just "hurf durf Americans". It's lazy drive-by posting.
I tend to stay out of political discussions on forums. It's a policy that's served me well so far. But I felt compelled to comment on this.
Oh, thank goodness. I'd forgotten what I said. Please forgive me. /friendly sarcasm, if there be such a creature
Actually, I agree with you all that there's no need to threadjack the thread. The 'rights' were referring to his right to mock a country without being flamed, but flamed seemed a strong word, so I deleted it.
It never seemed to me he intended to start a discussion, since being American, it was most likely a little jab at America's commercialism which we, as Americans, tend to embrace. I could be wrong, but that's how I interpreted it, and I'm surprised my comment (or his, for that matter)earned this apparent irritation.
I never meant to become involved, I had hoped that my pointing out that one of the 'offenders' wasn't being a crazy racist European might help to cool off this rather heated debate.
Who Godwin'd? Did I miss it? I thought nazi's or hitler needed to be referenced or compared in order to invoke the law.It's one thing to criticise your own country, and another entirely to Godwin a thread about Christmas.
Would you rather be speaking German now???
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Would you rather be speaking German now???
And if my original post was read, you'd have noted that I took that comment out...
Because while I was referring to a German rule that would have been far more harsh than anything we have seen post WWII (except maybe North Korea and Iraq under Sadam's Régime), I understood that my comment would have been taken WAY out of text AND blown WAY out of proportion!!
But alas, somebody was lightning fast on the "reply button" and quoted me just before my edit took effect...
*EDIT*
It was "Jagyr Ebonwood" who quoted me before the edit of my original post took effect...
No, bullshit, because I wasn't WITH a hooker today, ha-HA!
I'd buy THAT for a dollar!
No matter where you go, there you are.
I swear to God I'm going to pistol whip the next guy who says, "Shenanigans."
*skitters through looking for Cosmo's Wandering Eye*
The enemy, has opted for oblivion… ready the fleet.
I'm
Bond.
James
Bond
Do you expect me to talk?
There can be only one!
Rage, rage against the dying of the light.
You shall not pass!
Do not taunt Happy Fun Ball.
I'm gonna cut your g.d. head off. See if that works.