Frogboy -- in 3.5, Inspire Courage did not take a standard action each round. You could keep it going for free, you just couldn't cast spells or use wands at the same time. But you could certainly smack someone with your rapier (say) while singing.Round 1:
- So what do you do?
- I sing.
Round 2:
- So what do you do now?
- I run up and attack whatever that thing is.
- The Boneclaw rips your throat out before you ever even get within range to attack it. You die.
Round 3:
- Your turn. What do you do?
- I'm assuming I stay dead. I hate it when you forget you killed me. It's not like it doesn't happen every fight.
- Sorry, my bad.
Unless you have super-powered attributes, STR and CON are two that generally suffer at the hands of CHA, DEX and INT. You could even argue that WIS is important also since who wants to be the bard who gets charmed and dominated half the time. Of course, with the extra feats now, Force of Personality is an absolute must for any Bard or Sorcerer. Still, I've never seen anyone play the Swashbuckling Bard. We've always just played the Swashbuckler instead. With d6 HP, no CON and little STR, the bard usually just sat back with a shortbow or a crossbow and did 1d6+1 points of damage the 50% of the time that he actually hit. Obviously I'm exaggerating here but you have to admit, they didn't do much outside of singing.
Actually in the beta I have a level 2 bard cohort with 20 hit points. There's all sorts of ways to keep those suckers alive. I cast Shield Other to extend their life. There's also aid and other spells as well.
Additionally the bard gets to play it smart and go in after the AoO have been taken and they're also proficient with the whip which is useful for being useful while staying out of range. Additionally a casting of Sanctuary from the cleric can make the bard a healing machine with wands while staying relatively safe.
And finally don't forget that Bards get a +4 to their Will saves against Language-dependent effects like Suggestion. And they get their Inspire Courage bonus (if it's up and running) against Dominate Person. All of these mean that their will save (which happens to be on a good progression) is usually the least of their worries. Also distraction is good for getting the rest of the party to realize that they too are about to walk over the illusionary trap.
My main worry with the bard is combat effectiveness. The changes in the class center on it's ability to buff or baffle others and it's tremendous non-combat abilities. This is essential stuff - especially when doing adventure paths! - but it isn't SEXY, not like damage bonuses or combat feats or extra spell-like abilities. I fear that this class will be a much tougher sell than the others for my combat-happy party.
Oh, and would it be possible to have the concentration check bonus included in the stat blocks from now on? I know the calculation isn't difficult, but it would make the use of a NPC spellcaster just a little easier.
Just pull a Beholder out of your pocket next time, and all those buffs will...You misunderstand me. It's not that I'm saying the caster gets to cast every round, but that their effects last the whole combat. So the caster can cast Good Hope, Haste, Bless, and a host of other spells that have a round per level (or better) and get the same or better at the bard's bardic music while sacrificing a smaller percentage of their overall spells/bardic music points.
But do your casters actually buff for every combat? In our group, they only bother for major battles, which you usually don't have 4 of in a day. I don't see the problem in saving Inspire Courage for combats when your allies really need it. If it's just a random encounter of kobolds or something, does the bard really need to give everyone a plus 2?
Xuttah:** spoiler omitted **
Our random encounters tend to be pretty insane. And yes we need to buff because all of our enemies have fully buffed beforehand as well.
Our GMs have a nasty habit of having the enemies have multiple buffs on them. They hear us coming and then starting chugging all the potions they can. Perhaps they shouldn't, but that's something that should come up in the suggestions for GMing book that's coming out.
I remember the last two fights we had with Strahd in 3.5. In each, he had 13 buffs on him. I did a targeted dispel, followed by a quickened targeted dispel. Otherwise we'd have some dead PCs on our hands above and beyond the ones we normally get (about 1 every 2 sessions). I shudder to think what would happen if we had the Pathfinder version that only gets one spell.
Ultimately I'll have to talk to my GM about adjusting the rules for the way he likes to run his encounters. It does seem like a large number of posters experience the 5-round fight that the designers designed for which makes us the outliers and not the norm (and therefore we should adjust and not the game).
Oh that's so obvious. Now I feel dumb for not thinking of it myself. :)
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Our GMs have a nasty habit of having the enemies have multiple buffs on them. They hear us coming and then starting chugging all the potions they can...
Maybe if the bard wasn't singing all the time you might get to surprise a few foes ;)
Sorry couldn't resist.
Any chance we're going to find out if we can get skills refunded once we get access to the performance skill replacements?
Additionally it would be nice to know if there's a way to increase the DC of the bardic abilities (outside of charisma and level) like there is for spells (e.g. spell focus).
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Our GMs have a nasty habit of having the enemies have multiple buffs on them. They hear us coming and then starting chugging all the potions they can...Maybe if the bard wasn't singing all the time you might get to surprise a few foes ;)
Sorry couldn't resist.
We very rarely have the problem of the bard singing for 16 hours straight... at least not magically. Sometimes they just love to hear themselves talk. We keep telling them that a high Perform (Oratory) doesn't mean we want to hear every little thing they have to say.
Any chance we're going to find out if we can get skills refunded once we get access to the performance skill replacements?
The more I think about the new "Versatile Performer" mechanic, the more I suspect it's just the Alpha 1 ("Saga") skill rules in disguise: "at given level breaks, you instantly gain maxed out skills for no apparent reason!"
Like I said before, I love everything else about the new bard except for this one thing -- because I can't see what this mechanic accomplishes EXCEPT to bring in the Saga skill rules again.
Well, to be honest, I am not really interested in reading an entire post of sarcasm is an already tense thread.
I can understand that this can be incredibly frustrating. You put yourself out there and create a product for the greater populace which proceeds to tell you either a) you did great or b) you utterly failed. Take note I believe most everyone here thinks a).
I agree with Supersheep here and just want to add that over all I think this and the other previews have looked great. Sometimes the praise can be overshadowed by the criticism.
Overall I am very pleased with the bard preview. I have some question like others on exactly how some of the new abilities function but I can be patient. The single change from morale to competent bonus was great.
Still, I would love to see the bards spell list. None of the listed spells gave any hint of what has been added or subtracted from the spell list.
Doug
Round 1:
- So what do you do?
- I sing.
Round 2:
- So what do you do now?
- I run up and attack whatever that thing is.
- The Boneclaw rips your throat out before you ever even get within range to attack it. You die.
Round 3:
- Your turn. What do you do?
- I'm assuming I stay dead. I hate it when you forget you killed me. It's not like it doesn't happen every fight.
- Sorry, my bad.
No more like in 3.5:
Round 1: Sing
Round 2: Cast Displacement/Mirror Image (This Bard took Lyric Song so he can cast while inspiring)
Round 3: Kill monsters with rapier.
Round 4: Monster dead with your +12 bonus to hit/damage minimum from Inspire Courage. Add in Cha bonus to hit for even more hit (costing one use of Music). Then add Harmonizing (+1 ability tat asdds Cha to damage)
We look at around +20 to 30 damage per hit assuming one handed weapon like a rapier.
Unless you have super-powered attributes, STR and CON are two that generally suffer at the hands of CHA, DEX and INT. You could even argue that WIS is important also since who wants to be the bard who gets charmed and dominated half the time. Of course, with the extra feats now, Force of Personality is an absolute must for any Bard or Sorcerer. Still, I've never seen anyone play the Swashbuckling Bard. We've always just played the Swashbuckler instead. With d6 HP, no CON and little STR, the bard usually just sat back with a shortbow or a crossbow and did 1d6+1 points of damage the 50% of the time that he actually hit. Obviously I'm exaggerating here but you have to admit, they didn't do much outside of singing.
You are exaggerating.
Splatbooks were the Bards best friend.Complete Mage added Lyric song. Complete Adventurer/Ebberon book added Extra Music .
Magic Item Compendruim added the weapon ability.
And Book of Exalted Deeds added Words of Creation to double his Inspire Courage.
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Alot of what I am reading seems to keep pointing out, "Versatile Performance, ooooo, finally a reason to take more than one perform skill"
I am curious as to why so many people out there are only taking one perform skill, especially with the beta PF version out there.
This quote makes no sense to me on most bard builds. Any performer would have more than one trick in them. I know there are many builds for a bard, but with so many people quoting this Versatile Perfomance in such a way, it makes me think that folks dont get the bard concept.
Even me, playing a military drill sergeant bard, has oratory and story telling as perform skills that are maxed.
CC
(bard 7 / warweaver 5)
Those that are concerned about the Rounds per Day of Performance are those that think/feel the only mechanical reason to play a Bard is to make Bardic Performance do something useful (buffing the party) every round of every fight.
What other mechanical reason is there to play a Bard?
Versatility?
That is already covered with Mystic Theurges, Eldritch Knights, and Arcane Tricksters. They can already fill the versatility gap - with the added bonus of being able to customise the character to better fit the wants/needs of the group.
Let's face it, without Bardic Performance (and to a lesser degree Bardic Knowledge) the niche of the Bard is already filled.
Of course you would have to suffer the "Prestige Stigma" Pathfinder has created, but a character might be able to select a Prestige Class as their favored class mitigating that quite a bit.
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As someone who has played bards since 1st edition, I must say I am very pleased with the final Pathfinder version of the bard. I think it captures the essence of the 3rd edition bard (and the 2nd edition True Bard), as a wandering minstrel/lore expert/jack of many trades.
The focusing of the class down to one core concept path (as opposed to the Beta multipath) makes a lot of sense. Save the variant bard paths for a future options book - which will be coming out - even if I have to write, edit, and publish it myself. Someone else will have to do the art, though. Mine sucks. Seriously, I could fail a stick figure drawing class. :)
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On another note, I'm coming up with 63 ranks for skills. Assuming the favored class bonus was used purely for skills (hp do not appear to have been augmented), Lem should have a total of 64 ranks. (6 base +1Int +1 favored) times 8 levels. It looks like Knowledge: Local only has 7 ranks, with all other skills having max ranks (8).
I think someone else mentioned this earlier, but it got lost in the rounds/day vs. uses/day discussion.
Thoughts?
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Had an interesting thought: Versatile Performance may have a very good exploit if you allow 3.5 splatbooks. One of the Complete Splatbooks had a feat (which I believe was called, of all things, Versatile Performer) which allows the bard to treat all of their Perform skills as if they had the same number of ranks as their highest perform skill.
With one performance type maxed, one rank in a variety of other performance types, and the right Versatile Performance selections, a well planned bard could be an expert in nearly every (if not all) skill in the game by mid level.
Not a game breaker by any means, but could be annoying when the bard can out skill every other class with their primary skills. (Especially if the bard can inspire competence on themselves)
Food for thought.
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Had an interesting thought: Versatile Performance may have a very good exploit if you allow 3.5 splatbooks. One of the Complete Splatbooks had a feat (which I believe was called, of all things, Versatile Performer) which allows the bard to treat all of their Perform skills as if they had the same number of ranks as their highest perform skill.
With one performance type maxed, one rank in a variety of other performance types, and the right Versatile Performance selections, a well planned bard could be an expert in nearly every (if not all) skill in the game by mid level.
Not a game breaker by any means, but could be annoying when the bard can out skill every other class with their primary skills. (Especially if the bard can inspire competence on themselves)
Food for thought.
My guess is there is a limit to how many Performs you can let apply to Versatile Performance. There is probably a reason why our sample Bard only has two.
I'm guessing something like one allowed at 2nd level, then one additional one every 4 (maybe 6) after that. So 2 at 6th or 8th, 3 by 10th or 14th, 4 by 14th or 20th...
Possibly one at 2nd and then an additional every 6. That doesn't seem bad.
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Had an interesting thought: Versatile Performance may have a very good exploit if you allow 3.5 splatbooks. One of the Complete Splatbooks had a feat (which I believe was called, of all things, Versatile Performer) which allows the bard to treat all of their Perform skills as if they had the same number of ranks as their highest perform skill.
With one performance type maxed, one rank in a variety of other performance types, and the right Versatile Performance selections, a well planned bard could be an expert in nearly every (if not all) skill in the game by mid level.
Not a game breaker by any means, but could be annoying when the bard can out skill every other class with their primary skills. (Especially if the bard can inspire competence on themselves)
Food for thought.
My guess is there is a limit to how many Performs you can let apply to Versatile Performance. There is probably a reason why our sample Bard only has two.
I'm guessing something like one allowed at 2nd level, then one additional one every 4 (maybe 6) after that. So 2 at 6th or 8th, 3 by 10th or 14th, 4 by 14th or 20th...
Possibly one at 2nd and then an additional every 6. That doesn't seem bad.
As I said, not a game breaker, but pretty cool when you considered one rank in perform nets you max ranks in two other skills (each Perform skill seems to have two associated Versatile Performance skills). At 8th, this would be four maxed skills for two skill ranks. Not bad.
I myself just want to thank jason for killing yet another x/day power that pretty much makes you take a feat at level 1 to be useful more then once.
I myself love the rounds per day.
As I said, not a game breaker, but pretty cool when you considered one rank in perform nets you max ranks in two other skills (each Perform skill seems to have two associated Versatile Performance skills). At 8th, this would be four maxed skills for two skill ranks. Not bad.Had an interesting thought: Versatile Performance may have a very good exploit if you allow 3.5 splatbooks. One of the Complete Splatbooks had a feat (which I believe was called, of all things, Versatile Performer) which allows the bard to treat all of their Perform skills as if they had the same number of ranks as their highest perform skill.
With one performance type maxed, one rank in a variety of other performance types, and the right Versatile Performance selections, a well planned bard could be an expert in nearly every (if not all) skill in the game by mid level.
Not a game breaker by any means, but could be annoying when the bard can out skill every other class with their primary skills. (Especially if the bard can inspire competence on themselves)
Food for thought.
My guess is there is a limit to how many Performs you can let apply to Versatile Performance. There is probably a reason why our sample Bard only has two.
I'm guessing something like one allowed at 2nd level, then one additional one every 4 (maybe 6) after that. So 2 at 6th or 8th, 3 by 10th or 14th, 4 by 14th or 20th...
Possibly one at 2nd and then an additional every 6. That doesn't seem bad.
I don't think that's how it actually works. You only get your bonus to the other two skills. So if you only put one rank in perform, you're only going to get CHA + 3 + 1 for the other two skills. That said, it's still a very powerful ability.
We have also made starting and maintaining a bardic performance a bit easier. At 1st level, starting a bardic performance is a standard action, but this changes to a move action at 7th level and a swift action at 13th. maintaining a performance is a free action"
"One other class feature was added to the bard that allows him to really maximize his skill points. During the playtest there were a number of concerns about the Perform skill, being that it was required to gain access to specific bardic performance abilities but did little else beyond the roleplaying uses. To solve this we introduced a new bard class feature called versatile performance. This ability is gained at 2nd level and it allows the bard to substitute his Perform bonus for the bonus of two other skills, depending on the type of Perform."
These two paragraphs eliminate the two biggest frustrations I've had in the last 13 levels of playing a 3.5/PFRPG beta bard/fighter/homebrew PrC character. In fact, if I were starting over from 1st level with that character under the PFRPG final rules, I think I'd likely forego the multiclassing entirely and stick with bard all the way through.
The versatility of being able to activate a bardic music as a move or swift action at higher levels combined with an elegant solution to the 'skill tax' problem with performance is exactly what I was hoping for in the final version.
Also, something I haven't seen anyone else mention is the change to the confusion condition chart. I approve! One of the things that deters me from using Discordant Performance more often in our current game is the potential for the target to flee the battle, forcing us to track them down and kill them, and probably extending the battle. With the new condition chart, that won't be a problem any longer.
Kudos on a job well done!
And to think I was worried about the Bard forum not getting that many posts :)
After reading the whole thing and thinking all day, I still like all the changes. Breaking the "stacking songs" effects is brave, and a very big shift honestly, for high level bards anyways. But I think it will work out quite well.
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My main interest in Pathfinder RPG was the ability to continue using my big library of 3.5 material with new, always-high-quality Paizo stuff. I DMed "Crimson Throne" using Alpha, am playing in "Second Darkness" using Beta, and until this blog post, had my money for the PFRPG tucked in an envelope and ready to save until August.
I've changed my mind.
The "Second Darkness" character I'm playing is Zek Thorpe, a freewheeling follower of Cayden. He's a Bard 1/Cleric 6, and for his next level, was going to take the Heartfire Fanner prestige class from the element-themed issue of 'Dragon' magazine, which would've given him some neat new uses for bardic music. The feats I took for him gave him extra uses of bardic music, enhanced the bonuses to Inspire Courage (Song of the Heart from the 3.5 Eberron CS), and let him sing while casting his spells (Melodic Casting). I spiced in some alternative class features that gave more Cleric-y uses of his bardic music.
That's all pretty well dashed with the very limited usage of music, at least as I've used and seen music used to good effect. Bards aren't strong spellcasters, and the Rogue is a better general-adventuring-purpose skill-focused class. Music--and sustained, strategic uses of it--is where they really shone.
The bummed-out feeling regarding the way the PFRPG Bard changes negatively affected the way I envisioned and developed my character using different 3.5 sources drove home the lingering feeling I've had for several months--that the "backwards compatibility" design goal was being subsumed by "NEW, DIFFERENT!" Many of the changes are good, but that doesn't make it any less difficult to translate 3.5 adventure material. I did so with 4E over the past couple days for some short-term gaming we're doing until PFRPG is out and we kick off the third chapter of "Second Darkness" using the final ruleset, and found that conversion (really a translation--finding monsters and NPCs and traps and treasures and such that fit the original material) easier and more fun to do.
I'm going to continue playing in "Second Darkness" but I'll do so referencing my friends' copies of the Big Book rather than the one I'd planned to buy.
The bummed-out feeling regarding the way the PFRPG Bard changes negatively affected the way I envisioned and developed my character using different 3.5 sources drove home the lingering feeling I've had for several months--that the "backwards compatibility" design goal was being subsumed by "NEW, DIFFERENT!"
Heh. Not at all to denigrate your opinion -- play what you enjoy! -- but that "NEW, DIFFERENT!" feeling was what I got from many if not most of the 3.5 splatbooks. To me, personally, PfRPG feels closer to core 3.5 than a lot of the options introduced in splatbooks. :)
The "Second Darkness" character I'm playing is Zek Thorpe, a freewheeling follower of Cayden. He's a Bard 1/Cleric 6, and for his next level, was going to take the Heartfire Fanner prestige class from the element-themed issue of 'Dragon' magazine, which would've given him some neat new uses for bardic music. The feats I took for him gave him extra uses of bardic music, enhanced the bonuses to Inspire Courage (Song of the Heart from the 3.5 Eberron CS), and let him sing while casting his spells (Melodic Casting). I spiced in some alternative class features that gave more Cleric-y uses of his bardic music.
I really don't see why you can't keep useing that. extra bardic music is there still Melodic Casting is now built in so ya have a free feat slot.
I really do not see an issue here but YMMV
And to think I was worried about the Bard forum not getting that many posts :)
Still not nearly as many as the cleric or paladin threads. Just a tad over a third of what they got.
actually this thread is only about 50 or so posts short of what the cleric was after 19.5 hoursAnd to think I was worried about the Bard forum not getting that many posts :)Still not nearly as many as the cleric or paladin threads. Just a tad over a third of what they got.
Well maybe it is as loved as the others; that or my love of the bard makes up for everyone else's.
Had an interesting thought: Versatile Performance may have a very good exploit if you allow 3.5 splatbooks. One of the Complete Splatbooks had a feat (which I believe was called, of all things, Versatile Performer) which allows the bard to treat all of their Perform skills as if they had the same number of ranks as their highest perform skill.
With one performance type maxed, one rank in a variety of other performance types, and the right Versatile Performance selections, a well planned bard could be an expert in nearly every (if not all) skill in the game by mid level.
Not a game breaker by any means, but could be annoying when the bard can out skill every other class with their primary skills. (Especially if the bard can inspire competence on themselves)
Food for thought.
Okay now I understand what you're talking about. My guess is that that's not how it's going to work. That you'll get to pick one Performance skill every four or five levels to get its related bonuses. But what it does do it make one feat give you the equivalent of dozens of skill points. As a GM I'd ban that particular feat or make it so it only gives you one additional free performance per time taken, which would still be very powerful.
So... let me get this straight here...
3.5 8th level Bard (with Extra Music) in one day does the following:
1 Use Fascinating the guard and using Suggestion to sneak past him (taking 2 rounds).
1 Use of Countersong to cancel a sonic spell (taking 1 round).
3 Uses of Inspire Competence to grant a bonus to the group's cleric use the Heal skill to stabilize, the Wizard to make a knowledge check, and the rogue to disarm a trap (taking a total of 5 rounds)
4 Uses of Inspire Courage during a host of combats (lasting about 5 rounds each, for a total of 20 rounds)
As for Inspire Competence, there are plenty of skills where you want to use it for more than one round at a time:
Acrobatics - often requires more than one round to get to where you need to be.
Appraise - 1-3 rounds depending on use (3 rounds for item identification).
Climb - generally requires 1 round per 15' height (two move actions @ speed 30, one-quarter speed per move action).
Diplomacy - 1 minute per attempt to improve attitude, though in most parties it's probably better to have the bard actually do the talking himself instead of buffing the faceman.
Disable Device - average of 5 rounds (2d4) to attempt disabling a trap.
Disguise - 1d3x10 minutes.
Escape Artist - 1 minute or longer to escape from bindings or to squeeze through a tight space.
Heal - 10 minutes to treat a disease, 1 hour to treat deadly wounds.
Intimidate - 1 minute to improve attitude, but again it's often more useful for the bard to do it himself.
Linguistics - 1 min/page to decipher normal writing, 1 to 1d4 minutes per page for forgery, 1 round/page to detect forgery.
Spellcraft - learning spells takes hours, but on the other hand is usually easy enough that you don't need the boost.
Survival - generally takes hours or even longer.
Swim - 1 round per 15', as per Climb above.That's a pretty good chunk of skills requiring more than one round per check, making this a pretty hefty nerf to using Inspire Competence for out-of-combat skill use (although it did use to have a 2-minute limit on it as well, so some of these wouldn't have been covered either). Plenty of other skill uses are reactive in nature, making Inspire Competence hard. To use your own example - knowledge skills generally don't take an action, because you either know stuff or you don't, and the check is made to see if you do know it. I find it ridiculous that a party might encounter a ward on a door, and the wizard would wait for the bard to start singing before he rolled his Knowledge: Arcana check.
Now, you've given the bard some buffs in other ways (like making it easier to combine singing with other actions, and at higher levels letting the bard start singing as a move or swift action, and giving them more spells), so on the whole the bard has probably been buffed. But in your blog post you describe the Bardic Music change itself as an improvement, and that's just not so.
If you were concerned that high-level Bardic Performance abilities would be unbalanced with regard to uses per day, another option would have been to make them cost multiple uses. 3.5 already does this in a sneaky way, with Suggestion requiring that the target is already Fascinated.
Thank you for this. If I had been feeling better today I might have come up with this myself, but it seems like the official "house rule" for Inspire Competence is that a single use of Bardic Music is needed for a single skill check regardless of how long it takes to do the actual check. However it's only good for one check.
I would be curious to find out how this was handled in the internal play testing since I'm assuming it came up. What is the official ruling?
Hate to start proposing houserules before the preview is even one day old, but what about adding the following bit to the bardic music ability.
If a bard expends two uses of bardic music, he can establish a performance that lasts until the bard cancels it, or until the bard attacks or casts a spell.
With that little bit, our bard can still be sweet in combat and can still inspire competence, or fascinate, or whatever, without having to pay for it round by round.
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Hate to start proposing houserules before the preview is even one day old, but what about adding the following bit to the bardic music ability.
If a bard expends two uses of bardic music, he can establish a performance that lasts until the bard cancels it, or until the bard attacks or casts a spell.
With that little bit, our bard can still be sweet in combat and can still inspire competence, or fascinate, or whatever, without having to pay for it round by round.
I had considered something similar. If the bard uses his/her bardic music for 3 rounds in a row for the same ability the effects would continue for a number of rounds equal to his/her charisma modifier.
As for the whole inspire while climbing bit (or any action that requires a roll), the rules have always been silent on when the roll actually takes place. I think we can safely assume that it does not occur at the beginning, otherwise you could stop if you fail. I think using this ability when checks are made is a fine interpretation.
How about an official ruling on this point. There are a good number of spells and effects that alter the outcome of skill checks, and as far as I know the gentleman's agreement has always been that such spells and effects had to last the full time that skill check needed. As far as the specific example climb goes that should actually be on a round by round bases as that's how movement is determined.
Disable Devices is the better example as that takes several rounds for the single skill to be used. Can a Cleric cast the at-will orison Guidance at just the right moment to give the rogue a +1 bonus? Does he have to cast it very round the rogue attempts to disable the trap? More on topic what about the Bard and Inspire Competence? What about a skill check as complex as crafting a magic item? This really needs an official ruling or its just going to be a big mass of yes-no-maybe.
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On Bardic Rounds per day. I do not like this, straight out. While it is a minor boon to the lowest level of bards it is a serious kneecapping to what the 3.5 used to be able to. I will back this is with basic math instead of my own experiences playing bards (which is one of my three favorite classes).
This new mechanic falls far short, almost 50%, of where it should be. Instead of assuming 5 rounds of significance in combat, I use the 3.5 Bards own abilities to set the minimum. That is 5 rounds per day per level, based on a Bard doing a 'fire and forget' on Inspire Courage. This is still undercutting other Bardic Music effects, specifically Fascinate, at higher level as they would have lasted much longer per use.
This can be compared directly the conversion to Barbarians Rage Rounds vs. the 3.5 Rages/day. The revised forum mechanic gives a Barbarian (assuming no CON) 42 rounds of rage, compared to the 30 rounds under 3.5. And he can sparse them out to greater effect to boot.
What you've done to the Bards Performance ability by comparison is massively undercut it where it even minimally was. This is perhaps why you are seeing some of the other Bard players here recoiling at this change, even if the mathematical reason has yet to be expressed.
((In all seriousness though, I really do think it is fine to see the use of the ability that way, as long as you know when the checks are about to occur. It really is probably not the best ability to use while climbing a 500' rock wall, but then again, making a bunch of unskilled PCs climb that wall is a little cruel to begin with))Gotcha never put any characters in situations they may not have been expecting to deal with. No ship combat if they've never invested ranks in swim, just fast forward till when they land so they don't have to make balance or swim checks since they never bothered to train in them, and no being transported by a magic ritual to the beach of a strange and mysterious island where they have to scale a cliff just to get off the beach. Anything else I'm being cruel to my players for throwing at them in the interest of not fighting a band of orcs/demons in an open field for the 500th time being experienced gamers and all?[/sarcasm]No, I have to agree with Jason on the 500' cliff thing. Unless you expect them to fly or spiderclimb over the cliff, there is no way a party of adventurers with normal adventuring gear is going to actually climb that cliff without deaths.
Give them ledges or caves every hundred feet or so, which allows one good climber to climb up there and lower rope for the bad climbers, then it's not so cruel.
But if you really set up a challenge that will require a wizard or sorcerer or a cleric in full plate, etc., to climb 500' without failing any checks, you will have player deaths. And that is cruel.
You mean character deaths, right?
Otherwise I know a few players who should play in your game...
So I bellyached during the Beta... a bit... and figured I would assuaged my ego by posting what I think of the new bard.
I like it. The new preform means the bard only needs one skill to use his abilities, and if he wants he can branch out and use the perform skill for other things as well (which makes sense, if you can dance, you can tumble -- if you can act you can bluff). At the same time you aren't forced to branch out and can instead focus those skill points into other things and be versatile that way too. The Hit Dice were already known about but definitely needed.
And bardic music. I like this. I like it a lot. Those abilities actually scale (no more noisy aid other -- I mean inspire competence...) and actually seem to keep up with spells of usable at a similar level. With the adjusted bardic spells it seems likely that when a bard does cast a spell it will be worth the time and effort spent, as opposed to 3.5 were everyone else in the party looked at the bard and goes, "I could have done that 4 levels ago."
Rounds instead of x/day? I'll take it. Though I had expected the charisma mod added each level like the barbarians had been done in the past this can still work, as the bard has more control of when he spends those rounds... just like spells per day it's a resource that the bard has a more refined control over... just choose wisely.
But if you really set up a challenge that will require a wizard or sorcerer or a cleric in full plate, etc., to climb 500' without failing any checks, you will have player deaths. And that is cruel.You mean character deaths, right?
Otherwise I know a few players who should play in your game...
Nope.
I'm a Tarrasque for Pete's sake! Even when I DM...
Yes. I like a lot of the new stuff. I liked the rounds per day mechanic but it would have been great if Inspire courage was great. But its isn't.
Who wants to nuke the bard? YThe attack boost a party can get from a paladin or ranger is much more powerful and these classes are muck more powerful.
Cmon now, the bard concept has never been one of raw power. The bard is good at a lot of different things, but he is not the master of any of them. If you are looking for that class, well.. there are 10 of them to choose from. Will he get nuked first.. probably not, unless the bad guys realize that everyone is getting +3 to hit and damage from the guy in the back, who is also casting haste on the party, greater invis on the rogue, and curing the barbarian. I know its not the same, and I suspect that most folks do, but that is the entire point of the bard. They help win the fight indirectly sometimes.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
No, the bard has never been about raw power, but as a buff class he sucks. The cleric, druid, wizard or sorcerer will do better. They got more spells per day and better spells and they can do damage.
Spells? a lvl 13 bard has 5th lvl spells. A lvl 13 Paladin has 4th lvl spells. stuff like dispel evil (one of the best spells in the game) or holy sword. And the Paladin can use his auras and mercies and channel and use her aura of justice to grant the ability to smite evil to all allies. And ranger also has spells and other stuff. Spells like freedom of movment and abilities like hunters bond and skills etc.Buff and boost. Most spellcasting classes outclass the bard. And they can all be usefull vs undead, plant creatures, constructs, etc. And they all got damage spells. Paladin and rangers don't need damage spells the do damage using sword or bow.
Bard can cast haste? lvl 12 rogue/1 wizard can use wands. Hey lvl 13 rogue + UMD + skill focus UMD has no problem using wands.
I'm sorry. I don't think getting +3 to hit and damage is a big deal at lvl 13. The cleric don't need it he is casting flame strike the wizard don't need it is is casting a lvl 6 (or 7) spell. The fighter and rogue like it but it just isn't good enough. They could have had a +6/+26 bonus from a Paladin or a +3/+3 from the ranger and the ranger could actually done some damage by him self.
IF the bard got some more spells or better, some spell like abilities and inspire courage got raised at lvl 4, 7, 10, etc it would be a point to fear the bard, but now? Sorry. No Talents. Not even trapfinding.
You have all done a great job, but the bard - I'm disappointed.
I'm very disappointed that the Bard's primary unique ability was nerfed so heavily. Inspire Courage was the reason to play a Bard, mechanically. With the change to 2 rounds/level from 1 combat/level, and with the nerf from being a morale bonus to being a competence bonus, Inspire Courage has lost a tremendous amount of power. I have no clue why the designers would choose to nerf it at all, since Bards were considered one of the weakest classes in 3.0 and 3.5.
I'll note that Extra Music was nerfed, too; it used to give +4 uses/day, and now it gives +6 rounds/day. It used to be that you could take Extra Music at level 1 to give yourself enough Inspirations to last through the day; now you really can't.
That'd all be OK if the Bard had been given any real non-Performance-based usability buffs, but aside from a couple extra spell slots, I'm not seeing any. The Bard still relies on its Performances, they're just weaker (until you get to the level where Wizards are throwing around area-effect save-or-dies).
I've played a bard to level 9 in a PFRPG game that's been going for several months now, and I've had a pretty good experience with it. Give it a try when the final game's out, and if it still feels like a hopeless class to you, I apologize. I do ask that you keep in mind that each class is built to appeal to different types of game play, and that it's easy to play a variant bard by doing a mix-match of, say, a rogue/sorcerer multiclass, just as you can kind of "fake" a cleric by doing a bard/paladin, etc. The game has a LOT of options, and not all of those options will appeal to everyone in the same way.tweaking? tweaking is the problem. He needed something really new and a BIG boost.
But I love Paizo and will buy the pathfinder. But the bard? I'm not happy. The Bard is hopeless.
Yes. I will try him.
Or try a bard/Paladin, since I now can do it thanx to you :-)LG bard. That's good.
While at Paizocon I was lucky enough to get into Jason Nelson's game. I was pretty jazzed about it but when we all pulled our characters out of the hat I drew... Lem :( Rest assured I was not happy, I've never had a lot of bard love and didn't see this changing anytime soon, in particular since we were on 3.5 rules.
It turned out that Lem was a hoot to play. His skills were a great addition to the party and his combat mobility was great. I was a little frustrated that the first round of combat seemed to be dedicated to performance, but I don't get the folks who say that's all their bard does.
One thing I don't get is the issue people talk about maintaining bardic song. When I played Lem I would start inspire courage once then let it run for 5 rounds while I did more interesting stuff (spells,etc). Generally our encounters didn't last much more than 5 rounds (two encounters did) so this wasn't a huge issue. If I needed more rounds later in the encounter Lem would restart it when it expired.
So under 3.5 short encounters burned one standard action and one bardic performance. Longer encounters would burn either 2+ standard actions and 2+ to bardic performances OR the bard could burn 1 bardic performance, a standard action and be limited in what actions he could perform (no spellcasting or wand uses... bleh). I can't see any situation where the PfRPG bard doesn't kick butt on this. The bard burns X rounds of bardic performance and at MOST 1 standard action ever. At 10th level he's burning move actions to initiate the song.
So IMO the PfRPG bards bardic performance wins by a mile because his ability allows him to do more cool stuff. On paper maybe the 3.5 version gets more rounds of song use but then he is forced to waste tons of potential actions on maintaining it. bleh!
By contrast the PfRPG bard is doing is using wands, casting haste, curing folks, blasting with glitterdust, charming monsters... I'll take the PfRPG one even if he might fail to inspire his teamates occasionally, because IMO characters are supposed to be FUN to play.
Yeah, the bard still lacks the earth shattering spells of the other casting classes, but he's going to be a hoot to play.
Looking better and better. I'm excited at the potential expansion of abilities, the different sorts of abilities, and especially the social flair the bard now gets. I'm for the first time looking forward to playing one.
I see the rounds per as more a "word of courage when you need it most" instead of the continual song, which fits with the concept so much more, I think. With what Jason mentioned, it sounds like it should balance out, but...
Again, for the first time in years I'm excited about playing one.
That says something, doesn't it? And I love, love, love the skill changes.
Let's not forget the increased magic.
What I'd love to see, of course, would be a bard/spirit shaman--shamans are great performers, dancers, sellers of snake oil in some cases. I've no idea how that would work mechanically, but it sounds like fun.
"Ranged +1 thundering sling +12/+7 (1d3)"
Does that mean loading a sling is no longer a move action???
Also, do halflings still get a bonus to thrown weapons?
Anyway, love the increased spells, and the skill stuff looks cool.
d8 HD is of course great. Looking forward to seeing how the high level enchantment spells work.
Unfortunately, this rounds/day mechanic is a huge disappointment, as it largely cripples the bard unless you're assuming 3-5 round combat only. As our group is fairly unoptimized, combats frequently stretch out for 7-10 rounds, which means that our bard will be unable to use her defining class feature for much of the day.
What people don't seem to realize is that even if the bard's music were at-will, it would not be overpowered. Granting someone a +4 bonus on attack and damage rolls whenever one wants is hardly earth-shattering. Even with splatbooks, you can get that up to +7 fairly easily, and then you can activate your bardic music as a swift action. And even if THAT were at-will, it wouldn't be overpowered. Look at the wizard. Look at the cleric. Look at the druid. Look at what they do, and then compare it to a paltry +7 (+8 in PF) bonus on attack and damage rolls. Compare it to invisibility, compare it to flight, compare it to haste, compare it to having an animal companion, compare it to fabricate, compare it to solid fog, compare it to being a full caster with 3/4 BAB, a d8 HD, and good Fort/Will saves.
Then tell me how much that +8 is worth. Tell me why that +8 is going to shatter the game. Tell me how having that +8 on all day, every day, for the cost of a swift action, is going to snap the game in half.
And I'll tell you what: the fighter is the one who gets hurt most by this nerf. The fighter is unimpressive even with Pathfinder's revisions; he is weak and still useless. His only function is to whittle away at the enemy's health and then absorb their actions for a round or two so that the good character classes can win in combat. However, the fighter can be made less useless when buffed, and the bard's buffs were something that all classes--but the fighter especially--could appreciate. The fighter alone was the one who most benefited from the bard's abilities; he was less of a joke with that +8 bonus. But now the bard's abilities have been crippled, and so too has the fighter been crippled.
Paizo, I am disappoint.
Unfortunately, this rounds/day mechanic is a huge disappointment, as it largely cripples the bard unless you're assuming 3-5 round combat only. As our group is fairly unoptimized, combats frequently stretch out for 7-10 rounds, which means that our bard will be unable to use her defining class feature for much of the day.
What people don't seem to realize is that even if the bard's music were at-will, it would not be overpowered. Granting someone a +4 bonus on attack and damage rolls whenever one wants is hardly earth-shattering. Even with splatbooks, you can get that up to +7 fairly easily, and then you can activate your bardic music as a swift action. And even if THAT were at-will, it wouldn't be overpowered. Look at the wizard. Look at the cleric. Look at the druid. Look at what they do, and then compare it to a paltry +7 (+8 in PF) bonus on attack and damage rolls. Compare it to invisibility, compare it to flight, compare it to haste, compare it to having an animal companion, compare it to fabricate, compare it to solid fog, compare it to being a full caster with 3/4 BAB, a d8 HD, and good Fort/Will saves.
Then tell me how much that +8 is worth. Tell me why that +8 is going to shatter the game. Tell me how having that +8 on all day, every day, for the cost of a swift action, is going to snap the game in half.
And I'll tell you what: the fighter is the one who gets hurt most by this nerf. The fighter is unimpressive even with Pathfinder's revisions; he is weak and still useless. His only function is to whittle away at the enemy's health and then absorb their actions for a round or two so that the good character classes can win in combat. However, the fighter can be made less useless when buffed, and the bard's buffs were something that all classes--but the fighter especially--could appreciate. The fighter alone was the one who most benefited from the bard's abilities; he was less of a joke with that +8 bonus. But now the bard's abilities have been crippled, and so too has the fighter...
My GOD there are a lot of crybabies on these message boards. Boo hoo! Your combat goes 10 rounds so Lem has to use <gasp> two move actions. That means he can only make it through, let's see, 14 combats per day before his iconic, ICONIC I tell you, ability is used up. And it's only +2/+2 to everyone's attack and damage (for two move actions), which in a party of 5 might increase damage output by only 17% each. Pathetic! Every other class would have been doing... something... with those 2 move actions and it would have been a lot better than this!
Get a freakin' grip.
Unfortunately, this rounds/day mechanic is a huge disappointment, as it largely cripples the bard unless you're assuming 3-5 round combat only. As our group is fairly unoptimized, combats frequently stretch out for 7-10 rounds, which means that our bard will be unable to use her defining class feature for much of the day.
I would imagine that if your group is so unoptimized that 5-round combats stretch into 10-round combats, then you are taking way more damage, using way more healing, and burning way too many mage spells and other expendable resources.
And if all that is happening, then I bet you don't do it 4 times in a day.
Which means your bard won't need many more rounds of music than any other group's bard. Frankly, a D&D group can only survive so many rounds of abuse before they have to camp. If you are weak and unoptimized, then you don't kill the monsters fast enough, so there are more monsters living longer making sure that a majority of your rounds are very abusive, whereas another optimized group would kill some monsters early in each encounter so the remaining rounds would be less abusive. In the end, each group's bard needs to be functional for all of those rounds (that doesn't necessarily mean using bardic music for each of those rounds), but the optimized group will probably, in the long run, fight more rounds each day.
What people don't seem to realize is that even if the bard's music were at-will, it would not be overpowered. Granting someone a +4 bonus on attack and damage rolls whenever one wants is hardly earth-shattering. Even with splatbooks, you can get that up to +7 fairly easily, and then you can activate your bardic music as a swift action. And even if THAT were at-will, it wouldn't be overpowered. Look at the wizard. Look at the cleric. Look at the druid. Look at what they do, and then compare it to a paltry +7 (+8 in PF) bonus on attack and damage rolls. Compare it to invisibility, compare it to flight, compare it to haste, compare it to having an animal companion, compare it to fabricate, compare it to solid fog, compare it to being a full caster with 3/4 BAB, a d8 HD, and good Fort/Will saves.
Then tell me how much that +8 is worth. Tell me why that +8 is going to shatter the game. Tell me how having that +8 on all day, every day, for the cost of a swift action, is going to snap the game in half.
OK, I will tell you that it's game-breaking.
This is a d20 system. Our ability to hit things, to make our Saves, to use our skills, it's all based on a d20.
If you add a flat +8 to everything you do, then you're adding 40% chance to everything.
Assuming the game is balanced so that most of the time, much of what we do has about a 50/50 chance of success (yes, sometimes it's more, sometimes it's less, sometimes it is 50/50), then suddenly your +8 at-will constant bonus swings that balance to 90/10.
90/10 is very much game-breaking compared to 50/50. It would snap the game right in half.
And I'll tell you what: the fighter is the one who gets hurt most by this nerf. The fighter is unimpressive even with Pathfinder's revisions; he is weak and still useless. His only function is to whittle away at the enemy's health and then absorb their actions for a round or two so that the good character classes can win in combat.
That may be carrying it a bit too far, but I get your point. I don't think the fighter is useless, but I'll grant that at higher levels (into the teens) he is weak compared to some classes.
And your description of his "only function" is fairly over-the-top hyperbole. Even if the fighter isn't the guy who drops the lich-king, he sure does drop a bunch of the lich-king's minions - minions that would kill the mage and cleric if left alone.
However, the fighter can be made less useless when buffed, and the bard's buffs were something that all classes--but the fighter especially--could appreciate. The fighter alone was the one who most benefited from the bard's abilities; he was less of a joke with that +8 bonus. But now the bard's abilities have been crippled, and so too has the fighter...
Your claim that this nerf (if it is one) hurts the fighter the most is spurious. Most fighters don't travel with bards.
Maybe if bards become a viable character class, more people will play them and more fighters will travel with them.
But until then, you can't claim the figter is the most hurt by "nerfing" the bard because they can't be hurt by losing something that most of them never had.
So while only some fighter are hurt by this, all bards are hurt by it - assuming anyone is hurt at all; an assumption of which I remain in doubt.
I can understand why some people say that new bardic music is more fun to play. Yes, being able to cast spells and initiate music as a swift action is nice, but these could have been modifications to the old system.
The thing that's so awful about this is that it feels like a real failing of the open playtest. The first Beta barbarian (meaning in Beta, and not the good version that came out on the forums) was generally panned for having clunky mechanics, and being a hassle to keep track of. It seems like we've moved in that direction with this change. During the bard playtest, once the dilettante v musician arguments died down there were some really excellent suggestions made that seem to have been ignored. And I don't recall hearing a lot of "yeah, bardic music lasting all combat is sooo broken".
Instead, we have yet another point system. Is there some reason that every class other than fighter, rogue, or primary caster needs to have a point mechanic attached to it? I'm aware there was a bit of that before, but this feels like it's overly streamlined. I'm actually glad for vancian, for once, because otherwise, would we see the same system attached to casters?
My GOD there are a lot of crybabies on these message boards. Boo hoo! Your combat goes 10 rounds so Lem has to use <gasp> two move actions. That means he can only make it through, let's see, 14 combats per day before his iconic, ICONIC I tell you, ability is used up. And it's only +2/+2 to everyone's attack and damage (for two move actions), which in a party of 5 might increase damage output by only 17% each. Pathetic! Every other class would have been doing... something... with those 2 move actions and it would have been a lot better than this!
Get a freakin' grip.
Please leave your fanboyism at the door. Calling me a crybaby is trolling.
I would imagine that if your group is so unoptimized that 5-round combats stretch into 10-round combats, then you are taking way more damage, using way more healing, and burning way too many mage spells and other expendable resources.
You would imagine.
And if all that is happening, then I bet you don't do it 4 times in a day.
You'd be surprised.
Which means your bard won't need many more rounds of music than any other group's bard. Frankly, a D&D group can only survive so many rounds of abuse before they have to camp. If you are weak and unoptimized, then you don't kill the monsters fast enough, so there are more monsters living longer making sure that a majority of your rounds are very abusive, whereas another optimized group would kill some monsters early in each encounter so the remaining rounds would be less abusive. In the end, each group's bard needs to be functional for all of those rounds (that doesn't necessarily mean using bardic music for each of those rounds), but the optimized group will probably, in the long run, fight more rounds each day.
And yet the old system was less bad. Having to keep track of your music on a round-by-round basis is, well, irritating. It's less awful than, say, the proposed rage point mechanic, but it's still bad.
OK, I will tell you that it's game-breaking. MATH MATH MATH
Thank you, Blake, for performing those rudimentary mathetmatical functions for me. Without your demonstration, I could not have possibly understood that a +8 bonus increased the chance of success of a particular roll by 40%.
What you do not seem to understand is that 3.5 (and thus PF) is dominated by numbers skyrocketing straight into crazytown. The fact that you think a +40% chance to land an attack is broken is...well, laughable, and your insistence that it is somehow broken demonstrates a fundamental ignorance regarding the way 3e works.
...WHOA! Dude! I just totally had a revelation! Like, let's say you have a fighter, and he takes the Weapon Focus line of feats. So he's, like, got a +2 UNNAMED bonus on attack rolls. And then, like, he has his weapon training, which increases his attack bonus by +4. And then, like, he flanks with someone, so he, like, has an additional +2 bonus on attack rolls. You're looking at a +40% CHANCE FOR HIM TO HIT AN ENEMY HOLY COW MAAAAAAAAAAAAAN.
To summarize: no.
That may be carrying it a bit too far, but I get your point. I don't think the fighter is useless, but I'll grant that at higher levels (into the teens) he is weak compared to some classes.
And your description of his "only function" is fairly over-the-top hyperbole. Even if the fighter isn't the guy who drops the lich-king, he sure does drop a bunch of the lich-king's minions - minions that would kill the mage and cleric if left alone.
I do not think you understand how casters work. The wizard is well protected and probably nigh-unhittable to the minions. The cleric wades in and beats the tar out of them. It's pretty simple, actually.
Your claim that this nerf (if it is one) hurts the fighter the most is spurious. Most fighters don't travel with bards.
Prove it.