I hade hoped to get an answe from jason or james or anyone from Paizo, but thanx for the answers. So here are my refelctiosn
We don't know anything about A or B and I guess we have to wait.
C) A bard is proficient with shields, but they still affect his ASF (odd but it's there). If he is using a buckler or light shield he could hold the rod in one hand and the weapon in the other allowing him to use both in one round. Anyone can use any rod unless the rod states specifically otherwise (a paladin can use a rod of quickening too).
Well since it's use activated the bard ..or whoever, won't gat the ac from the buckler the round you use it...which kind of sucks. Also drawning a rod is a move action, so no full attack that round Perhaps you have quick draw? ...well I guess no. It's not a weapon.
D) Not sure what you mean. [...]Wands are not arcane or divine. Anyone with the spell that is in the wand on their spell list (even if they can't cast spells yet such as a first level paladin) can use that wand, no matter who made it. [...]When casting a spell from an item unless the item specifically states what it summons the user of the item makes all decisions when the item is used.
In the case of your wand of summon monster, unless it states that it is a wand of summon celestial monkey, you can choose any of the creatures on the correct summon monster list.
This is were I'm not sure you are right.
Are wands of SM1 just a wand of SM1 or is it SM1 with specific SM1 creature? (my english kind of suck. I know).That is, when you create them do you have to choose what creature to summon?
Same goes for Resist Energy. Do you just create a Resist Energy wand and then just choose to use resist fire one charge and then resist cold one charge and resist light one charge. Or are they all of the same eneryg type?
C) A bard is proficient with shields, but they still affect his ASF (odd but it's there).
It is there, but it does not affect ASF. That language is a carryover from 3.5 (before bards had shield proficiency) - the text is contradictory. Resolved in 16 days anyhow :)
Are wands of SM1 just a wand of SM1 or is it SM1 with specific SM1 creature? (my english kind of suck. I know).
That is, when you create them do you have to choose what creature to summon?
Same goes for Resist Energy. Do you just create a Resist Energy wand and then just choose to use resist fire one charge and then resist cold one charge and resist light one charge. Or are they all of the same eneryg type?
I get what you mean.
Wands are not set. A Wand of Resist Energy can be used for any of the five.Scrolls are not set. A Scroll of Summon Monster III lets you choose anything from the SM3 list, or 1-3 SM2, or 2-5 SM1.
Potions *are* set. A Potion of Protection from Energy must have an energy type set. Somewhere (perhaps just in the SRD not in the Beta) it says you must make all decisions for the spell when you make the potion.
The idea behind this is that a Potion is not "cast", it's used. A scroll or wand requires spell-completion or spell-trigger, i.e. some knowledge of magic.
It is there, but it does not affect ASF. That language is a carryover from 3.5 (before bards had shield proficiency) - the text is contradictory. Resolved in 16 days anyhow :)
Hope you are right, I noted that it was contradictory in the design focus. Our group went on the option that was closest to the 3.5 rule set, and hoped that it was supposed to not affect ASF. That is good news though.
On the buckler issue, it only says you don't get the bonus if you attack with a weapon in that hand or with a two handed weapon. Doesn't say anything about using any other item in hand (YMMV).
Finally yeah, it all comes down to the type of action to trigger the item. Spell Completion and Spell Trigger are different from use, as Majuba stated... while this isn't covered in the beta rules, it is in the SRD, and will probably (almost certainly) be in the pathfinder core book too. Since it wasn't covered in the beta or alpha I imagine it will be the same as in the SRD.
Slightly OT, but....
I get what you mean.
Wands are not set. A Wand of Resist Energy can be used for any of the five. Scrolls are not set. A Scroll of Summon Monster III lets you choose anything from the SM3 list, or 1-3 SM2, or 2-5 SM1.
Yes, that tha I meant. I read the SRD. It wasn't that clear.
Spell Trigger
Spell trigger activation is similar to spell completion, but it’s even simpler. No gestures or spell finishing is needed, just a special knowledge of spellcasting that an appropriate character would know, and a single word that must be spoken. Anyone with a spell on his or her spell list knows how to use a spell trigger item that stores that spell. (This is the case even for a character who can’t actually cast spells, such as a 3rd-level paladin.) The user must still determine what spell is stored in the item before she can activate it. Activating a spell trigger item is a standard action and does not provoke attacks of opportunity.
Edit:
The text seem to indicate the spell is actually set. You only use a single word to acticvate it, so if the word is: kazzam how would that make the wand produce restist fire instead and cold and acid? No gestures or spell finishing is needed.
Let me be more clear. If the comando word is "flamesafe" how would that produce the effect of resist cold. To me it indicate its all resist fire. That is: how would the wand "know" what spell to activate?
On the buckler issue, it only says you don't get the bonus if you attack with a weapon in that hand or with a two handed weapon. Doesn't say anything about using any other item in hand (YMMV).
A)What is "(YMMV)"?
B) "it only says you don't get the bonus if you attack with a weapon in that hand or with a two handed weapon"I don't think this is logical. So a one armed man can wear a buckler and use his shielded arm to drink a potion and still retain his AC?
Anyway.
Shield (or TWF) = No free hand = not use rod. That kind of suck when you are a cleric, Paladin, Ranger or Druid...or Bard.
On the buckler issue, it only says you don't get the bonus if you attack with a weapon in that hand or with a two handed weapon. Doesn't say anything about using any other item in hand (YMMV).
A)What is "(YMMV)"?
B) "it only says you don't get the bonus if you attack with a weapon in that hand or with a two handed weapon"
I don't think this is logical. So a one armed man can wear a buckler and use his shielded arm to drink a potion and still retain his AC?
Anyway.
Shield (or TWF) = No free hand = not use rod. That kind of suck when you are a cleric, Paladin, Ranger or Druid...or Bard.
YMMV = Your Mileage May Vary, or you may find it different for you :)
Yup as GG said. I agree, and probably wouldn't allow it in my game, however as a "But the rules say..." thing... meh.
In our group just holding the rod is good enough. There isn't anything else you need to do other than use tell the DM you are using it with the spell you are casting, in effect it becomes something of a material focus for the spell in question and part of casting that spell instead of used on its own. After all it has no "use" on it's own anyways, and it seems silly with a metamagic rod of quicken that using it would take long enough to interfere with your defending yourself in that round.
However, again, YMMV ;D
Also there is a specific reason I picked a Buckler as opposed to a heavy shield. Light shields are different too... might want to reread their entries, you might find you have more options than you think you do.
While I would not label PFRPG a "melee edition" of 3.5, I do feel as if Paizo basically left the weakest class (the bard) extremely weak.
I will still most likely order the PFRPG (I am a subscriber and running Pathfinder Society games) but right now I am pretty disappointed in the PFRPG Bard.
Well I'm one to agree
Some say arcane strike is a good bard feat. I just say greater magic weapon. How come got such a crappy spell list?oh, they are a class with buff spells and utillity spells.
So where's mage armor, bull's str., Resist Energy, fly, stoneskin, etc.
While I would not label PFRPG a "melee edition" of 3.5, I do feel as if Paizo basically left the weakest class (the bard) extremely weak.
I will still most likely order the PFRPG (I am a subscriber and running Pathfinder Society games) but right now I am pretty disappointed in the PFRPG Bard.
Well I'm one to agree
Some say arcane strike is a good bard feat. I just say greater magic weapon. How come got such a crappy spell list?
oh, they are a class with buff spells and utillity spells.
So where's mage armor, bull's str., Resist Energy, fly, stoneskin, etc.
I agree with your thoughts. I made a proposal in the play test to give back the spells the bard lost in the 3.0/3.5 transition. Specifically mage armor, magic weapon, keen edge and greater magic weapon. Did not recieve a single response to that thread. I have asked for a preview of the spells lists especially the bard and ranger lists to see what if anything changed. Until we see those lists we can not fully evaluate the changes to the bard.
Hi again!
On Arcane strike:
Arcane strike is good since (currently as far as I know, after JB clarified in the wizard's thread) it adds extra damage that stacks with all other damage. It is basically a scaling weapon specialization that takes a swift action to activate. You could use it on top of greater magic weapon (or an actual magical weapon).
****
Those aren't bard spells because that's not the bard's flavor. He's not a buffing specialist, he's a dabbler in magic. This is also why he few spell levels than other casters. However because he dabbles he isn't quite as constrained by the laws and theories of others... basically he did it before anyone could tell him he couldn't (IMO this should also apply to sorcerers).
On Mage Armor specifically -- why would he need it? He can wear armor and use a shield. It's not a spell he would develop a need for.
Personally I agree in the instance of bull's strength, resist energy, and fly(I'm maybeish on stoneskin).
****
Another thought on the subject:
I think a lot of it comes down to the classes history too. The bard has evolved with each edition (sometimes even during editions) into something new that the designers think is iconic of the bard. I believe this is because the bard actually has less Iconic Weight behind it telling you what it actually means to be a bard. Unlike the wizard and fighter who even people that haven't even played a RPG before can figure out, the bard just doesn't fit an easy description.
Which is part of the reason to play a bard. It can be anything from a Battle field commander, to a scheming casanova, to a folk hero, to a "spoony bard" that goes around buffing his allies with his music and hindering his foes.
stuff
the bard history. 3.x = the bard suck so let's keep the bard on his knees.
Sorry. the berd might be ok at level 12. nut the bard suck at higher levels. we might not agree. OKI still try the new bard. But I doubt I will back down. The bard still suck. Just the fact that all bard suggestion say, keep tha charisma down prove this as far as I'm conserned
stuffthe bard history. 3.x = the bard suck so let's keep the bard on his knees.
Sorry. the berd might be ok at level 12. nut the bard suck at higher levels. we might not agree. OK
I still try the new bard. But I doubt I will back down. The bard still suck. Just the fact that all bard suggestion say, keep tha charisma down prove this as far as I'm conserned
Well it's not the only choice remember: A Bard with maxed charisma who focuses on his spells and songs can do very well... just don't expect wizard 20 stuff at level 20 (actually the death ability is good, and the mass suggestion will at least have a nice save throw).
Beyond that the bard is going to get 3 skill points out of his performance skills now, which is something: 1 for perform 2 for the skills he has on versatile performance. So that's something too.
The real issue with the bard is to focus or not to focus. The bards we presented are generalists, however that isn't to say that's the only way to do a bard.
I do agree the bard was no where near as good as he was in 2nd compared to 3rd, however I do think the pathfinder bard is worthwhile.
stuffthe bard history. 3.x = the bard suck so let's keep the bard on his knees.
Sorry. the berd might be ok at level 12. nut the bard suck at higher levels. we might not agree. OK
I still try the new bard. But I doubt I will back down. The bard still suck. Just the fact that all bard suggestion say, keep tha charisma down prove this as far as I'm conserned
Well it's not the only choice remember: A Bard with maxed charisma who focuses on his spells and songs can do very well... just don't expect wizard 20 stuff at level 20 (actually the death ability is good, and the mass suggestion will at least have a nice save throw).
Beyond that the bard is going to get 3 skill points out of his performance skills now, which is something: 1 for perform 2 for the skills he has on versatile performance. So that's something too.
The real issue with the bard is to focus or not to focus. The bards we presented are generalists, however that isn't to say that's the only way to do a bard.
I do agree the bard was no where near as good as he was in 2nd compared to 3rd, however I do think the pathfinder bard is worthwhile.
I don't agree on anything you say.
Compare the bard to a cleric or a druid. The bard suck. And that's what we are talking about. A hybrid 3/4 class with some spells.I hate the death ability.
The bards are generalists and that work up to level 9 or 10..or 12.
Skills? Rogues have 8 / level.
Spells Wizards, sorcerers, druids, cleric are much more powerful and they are better at buffing.
Sorry we will never agree on the bard
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Wow! This thread is still going at 700+ posts and weeks later!
Guess it goes to show the love that many have for the Bard. Brings a tear to my eye. I know what my next character will be. Hint: A BARD!
Rule issues be damned! As long as I can sell ice to a Linorm King, leave all the damsels swooning, and buckle the occasional swash, I'm happy.
Plus anything to torture the rest of the group with bad singing and worse puns!
[...]Rule issues be damned! As long as I can sell ice to a Linorm King, leave all the damsels swooning, and buckle the occasional swash, I'm happy.
Plus anything to torture the rest of the group with bad singing and worse puns!
LOL :-)
I agree with your thoughts. I made a proposal in the play test to give back the spells the bard lost in the 3.0/3.5 transition. Specifically mage armor, magic weapon, keen edge and greater magic weapon. Did not recieve a single response to that thread. I have asked for a preview of the spells lists especially the bard and ranger lists to see what if anything changed. Until we see those lists we can not fully evaluate the changes to the bard.While I would not label PFRPG a "melee edition" of 3.5, I do feel as if Paizo basically left the weakest class (the bard) extremely weak.
I will still most likely order the PFRPG (I am a subscriber and running Pathfinder Society games) but right now I am pretty disappointed in the PFRPG Bard.
Well I'm one to agree
Some say arcane strike is a good bard feat. I just say greater magic weapon. How come got such a crappy spell list?
oh, they are a class with buff spells and utillity spells.
So where's mage armor, bull's str., Resist Energy, fly, stoneskin, etc.
true we can't fully evaluate the changes to the bard spells, but there is nothing indicating there have been any major changes.
Those aren't bard spells because that's not the bard's flavor. He's not a buffing specialist, he's a dabbler in magic
So he is not a buffer. So what is he then? He sure as hell isn't a blow 'em up or sneak attack them to shreds character.
Just because "those" spells were not bard spells in 3.5 must they not be bard spells now?
"not the bard's flavor"? Says who, God?
Personally I agree in the instance of bull's strength, resist energy, and fly(I'm maybeish on stoneskin).
OK so they are the bard's flavor.
On Mage Armor specifically -- why would he need it? He can wear armor....
He can wear armor, but sometimes he doesn't. Not when sleeping; Not in sertain social occasions/contexts; Not as as a prisoner; etc.
Sometimes armor does not help vs. certain attacks, like incorporeal attacks.Sometimes the bard might want to cast it on others.
[The bard] can be anything from a Battle field commander, to a scheming casanova, to a folk hero, to a "spoony bard" that goes around buffing his allies with his music and hindering his foes.
Buffing. So he is a buffer after all.
I think a lot of it comes down to the classes history too.
Perhaps. It's logical.
- Let's not change him to much or some people might think the bard has become too good. an good example of this is this little quote from jason about Inspire Courage:As if there was a risk Inspire Courage is too good?
OT. competence bonus: How many spells have competence bonus? Let's hope heroism and good hope isn't competence bonus now.
The real issue with the bard is to focus or not to focus.
If you focus you will suck. If you don't you will be OK.
3 examples of the bard. All 3 had low charisma. It's obvious why.DM-Blake made a comment in this thread that Lems charisma was a bit low...so it 4 bards and none of them has a high charisma.
3 of them have low charisma and one has decent, but not good charisma.
But it's not like I want the bard to be a spell caster class. I agree with SuperSheep. I had hoped for bardic talents or feats that could have expanded the bardic music.
So Abraham, what can we agree upon?
We both love Paizo and the final seems to be great.
We both think the new bard is far better than 3.5 and better than the beta
we both will buy the final (and I will sure as h*ll buy the PDF...getting the book delivered to sweden will probably take some time and I can't wait)
we both like the rounds per day mechanic.
We both agree with Jason, the bard concept has never been one of raw power
I just don't think it's fun to be the booster of the group and nothing more. Especially without having the right boost to help them.
No one, or very few, wanted to play the cleric in 1:st ed. The bard is a bit like that. Although I agree the bard is more fun :-)
No one seem to have noticed this as far as I know, but the rounds per day mechanic has actually made Inspire Greatness more useful since you now gain 2 new bonus Hit Dice of temporary hit points each round you sing.
Zark I think the only thing we disagree on is how useful a bard will be to a party, and truthfully that will always come down to the player and the game. After all people might have thought that the rogue stinks if they only ever faced undead in 3.5, or that enchantment spells are pointless if they only faced mindless opponents and opponents with outrageously high will saves.
I personally really like the PF bard. I think he has a lot to offer the party. Yes he is 6+ Int skill points to the rogues 8+ Int but that's slightly deceiving since he'll get his bardic knowledge to 8(ish how many knowledges are there?) skills, his perform skills will could triple (I imagine at 12~13th level he'll have 3 versatile performance types which means he has the performance then he has 6 other skills maxed out for that). Inspire Courage gives more faster, and as you pointed out Inspire Greatness is a bit nicer than before.
Also the bard can now do more in one round that other characters (especially at 13th level). In one round he can: Buff the entire party with inspire courage, cast a spell, and move OR Buff the entire party, full attack.
Something else is the bard doesn't need to take a lot of charming spells: He has several that he is getting as class features, and those class features will always have a DC = to the top spell a wizard could cast at even levels. Heck at level 20 (which doesn't get hit a lot I know) the starting DC is higher than a 9th level spell at 10 + 10 (1/2 bard level) + Cha Mod.
In the end however I think what disagreement we have is rather minor. You seem (seem, not saying you are, it could be the internet) a little put out that the bard can't do everything as well as everyone else (not as good of a caster as a full caster, not as good of a fighter as a front liner, not as good a rogue as a rogue), however I would point out that the bard can do almost as well as all of those classes, without much effort. He's second in everything, and that's not a bad thing to be.
Zark I think the only thing we disagree on is how useful a bard will be to a party, and truthfully that will always come down to the player and the game.
True, but I don't like the argumnet that in campaigns with a lot of roleplaying the bard is great (some in this thread has made that argument).
Also the bard can now do more in one round that other characters (especially at 13th level). In one round he can: Buff the entire party with inspire courage, cast a spell, and move OR Buff the entire party, full attack.
true. I would however say "do more than most classes". Full caster like wizards and clerics can still use quicken spell.
Something else is the bard doesn't need to take a lot of charming spells: He has several that he is getting as class features, and those class features will always have a DC = to the top spell a wizard could cast at even levels. Heck at level 20 (which doesn't get hit a lot I know) the starting DC is higher than a 9th level spell at 10 + 10 (1/2 bard level) + Cha Mod.
Yes, but the bard won't have a high char.
Suggestion is also a very hard spell to use and as you pointed out it won't work on mindless opponents and undeads.
In the end however I think what disagreement we have is rather minor. You seem (seem, not saying you are, it could be the internet) a little put out that the bard can't do everything as well as everyone else (not as good of a caster as a full caster, not as good of a fighter as a front liner, not as good a rogue as a rogue), however I would point out that the bard can do almost as well as all of those classes, without much effort. He's second in everything, and that's not a bad thing to be.
Edit:
I don't want the bard to do everything as well as everyone else. I'm just pointing out he could have gotten some more love.But I might be wrong. I haven't read the final. I just fell he could have gotten some more love. Perhaps some more usefull spells at his spell list, some high level spells slots so he could use metamagic feats (I don't mean 7 - 9 level spells just the slots), some SPA, some talents or something like the cleric domains or sorcerers bloodlines. Call it Bardic Colleges or whatever. I mean at level 17 clerics, druids and wizards cast 9 level spells and bard can use Inspire courage +4.
Oops, I've just noticed Good hope targets one living creature/level. If this stacks with Inspire Courage it would change my view on the bard a great deal. It would change a lot. :-)
let the 13:th come soooooon.
Jumping in on this thread after doing some skimming of the end posts:
-Bardic Music in rounds instead of uses: BAD Paizo! BAD! Why'd you have to nerf it like that? The most important thing the Bard brings to the table is a near-constant Inspire Courage (which needs Melodic Casting (CMage), Inspirational Boost (SpellComp), and maybe a Medal of Valor (MICompendium) to be any good, but that's beside the point). The smart Bard starts up his Inspire Courage long before combat begins. By reducing the total amount of time the Bard can use his song, that really sways things in favor of the Cleric, or a Wizard or Sorcerer with Heroism (which lasts a really long time). Even if a higher level Bard can use a song as a swift action once combat starts, that's still longer than taking no time at all. Bad move.
-Inspire Courage becoming Competence: If this change is true, it would be a huge boost, as Inspire Courage would suddenly stack with Bless and Heroism.
-This crazy talk of subbing Perform for other skills: Ehh. Just keep it simple and make the Bard be 8+Int skills instead. Oh well.
Overall, I'm still seeing the Bard as being a weak class, unless played as a pseudo-Fighter in a low-magic-item campaign (like PFS). I don't know where the notion that the Bard as the ultimate social character came from, but the Rogue still does it better by virtue of having more skill points. The Cleric still strikes me as the better party-helper, though I'll have to look at things like whether the Bard received Greater Magic Weapon and whether Heroism was made Bard-only to know for certain. Inspire Courage needs to advance at something like 1/5/9/13/17 to scale properly, let's hope that ends up being true. And let's hope the new bardsongs don't still suck (Mass Cure Light? Oh, please...).
So, I'm not feeling any Bard goodness coming from that preview, and I may end up converting my PFS Bard into a Rogue1/WizX because of it, but we'll see how the details play out.
-Matt
Jumping in on this thread after doing some skimming of the end posts:
-Bardic Music in rounds instead of uses: BAD Paizo! BAD! Why'd you have to nerf it like that? The most important thing the Bard brings to the table is a near-constant Inspire Courage (which needs Melodic Casting (CMage), Inspirational Boost (SpellComp), and maybe a Medal of Valor (MICompendium) to be any good, but that's beside the point). The smart Bard starts up his Inspire Courage long before combat begins. By reducing the total amount of time the Bard can use his song, that really sways things in favor of the Cleric, or a Wizard or Sorcerer with Heroism (which lasts a really long time). Even if a higher level Bard can use a song as a swift action once combat starts, that's still longer than taking no time at all. Bad move.
-Inspire Courage becoming Competence: If this change is true, it would be a huge boost, as Inspire Courage would suddenly stack with Bless and Heroism.
-This crazy talk of subbing Perform for other skills: Ehh. Just keep it simple and make the Bard be 8+Int skills instead. Oh well.
Overall, I'm still seeing the Bard as being a weak class, unless played as a pseudo-Fighter in a low-magic-item campaign (like PFS). I don't know where the notion that the Bard as the ultimate social character came from, but the Rogue still does it better by virtue of having more skill points. The Cleric still strikes me as the better party-helper, though I'll have to look at things like whether the Bard received Greater Magic Weapon and whether Heroism was made Bard-only to know for certain. Inspire Courage needs to advance at something like 1/5/9/13/17 to scale properly, let's hope that ends up being true. And let's hope the new bardsongs don't still suck (Mass Cure Light? Oh, please...).
So, I'm not feeling any Bard goodness coming from that preview, and I may end up converting my PFS Bard into a Rogue1/WizX because of it, but we'll see how the details play out.
-Matt
I agree "I'm still seeing the Bard as being a weak class", but I think you find the rounds per day mechanics to be better than the song per day mechanics, but I agree they could have gotten more rounds per day.
New bardsongs? I'm not sure there are any new bardsongs.