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At least I don't see what your point is anyway unless it is to complain about NPC's that don't matter, and ignoring ones that do.

It doesn't speak well of the writers if their attitude to published material "it doesn't matter anyway."


Quote:
How about arguing the point, whatever that is, and not being insulting.

What point is there to argue? James Jacobs said he didn't put time into the characters. It shows in that the characters are terrible. I'm really less offended by the wizard's spell selection than the fighter not using weapons his class features enhance. It's clearly lazy design.

If, for instance, the fighter decided to TWF with daggers, that would be one thing. I'd say, "Okay, that's not optimal, but I can respect that the character uses daggers." But using a weapon that his Weapon Training doesn't apply to? That's an unspeakable level of incompetence.


Bob_Loblaw wrote:
Must we resort to personal attacks? There is no need to actively try to get a thread locked. If the only thing you can add is an attack, then maybe it's best to not add at all.

It was an observation.


James Jacobs wrote:

Part of the reason we quit putting the pregenerated iconics in there is precisely because of this reaction.

I'm actually not at all interested in trying to make the most over-the-top numbercrunched optimized characters... be it in a game I'm running or as sample PCs. Partially because it's kind of soul-numbing, but also because it's pretty hard to sift through every possible spell option and try to perfect a stat block that, in the case of those sample PCs, is being done at the last minute anyway.

In fact, we often picked spells for the PCs based ENTIRELY on the length of the spell, since too many long-named spells would make the spells prepared not fit in the space we had available. In other cases, we'd pick spells (and feats and the like) that might not be "optimized" for a specific build, but are the perfect feats for that particular character.

For example as well... Merisiel is wearing studded leather armor because that's what she's wearing in her artwork.

The iconic stat blocks had FAR more masters to serve than the "Optimization Master." to the extent that serving the "Optimization Master" was never on the to-do list in the first place.

AKA: Those pregenerated characters are NOT intended to be optimized, but folks who want or expect them to be get worked up and therefore threads like these start up. So we quit doing it.

If you're looking for a better representation to how we build high-level wizards, a better place to look than the prebuilt PCs is to any high-level wizard NPCs in the adventure. Of course... those are built as NPCs with specific story goals and requirements their stats must serve first before any other master... and they've got worse stats than most PCs most of the time, so maybe not.

It must be tough writing for a system when you don't understand how it works.


BYC wrote:

I haven't said it in at least one page.

Item fix.

Since it hasn't been said in at least one page: BAD IDEA.


My paladin just ate an orc baby for fun, does he fall?


Good question. The latter (more favorable) interpretation is correct, though the former is probably easier to use. I might have to change that at some point.


Updated list below. I'm thinking of revamping the various +2/+2 feats to make them suck less (rather than simply boosting Skill Focus), but that is going to be a fair bit of work in and of itself.

Arcane Armor Mastery
Prerequisite: Caster level third.
You reduce the total arcane spell failure of the armor and shields you wear by 20%.

Armor Proficiency
You gain proficiency with all armor and shields.

Bodyguard
When an ally within your reach is attacked, you may use an attack of opportunity to improve your ally’s AC by +2 or your shield bonus, whichever is higher.

Cleave
As a standard action, make a melee attack at your highest attack bonus against an enemy within reach. If it hits, you may make an attack against another enemy within reach. You may continue to make attacks against enemies as long as you continue to hit, but you may not attack the same target more than once.

Whenever you drop a target (typically by reducing it to 0 or fewer HP), you may make a melee attack at your highest attack bonus against an enemy within reach. If you hit and drop that enemy, you may continue to make melee attacks until you miss or an enemy survives your onslaught.

Combat Expertise
Prerequistes: Intelligence 13, at least one level in fighter.

You may add your Intelligence bonus to your AC and CMD in place of your Dexterity bonus. All the same restrictions apply (such as maximum Dexterity bonus). You may also add your Intelligence bonus to your CMB in place of your Strength modifier.

Deadly Aim
You gain a bonus on ranged damage rolls equal to one-third your base attack bonus (minimum 1).

Death or Glory
Prerequisite: Base attack bonus +6.

As a standard action, you can make a single melee attack roll against a creature, rolling twice and taking the better result. This attack deals additional damage, but the creature may immediately make an attack of opportunity against you in response (after you have finished rolling damage against it). However, the damage from the creature’s attack of opportunity is multiplied in a like fashion, making this quite a gambit. This damage done by you and the creature depends on your respective base attack bonuses.

+6 BAB: Double damage.
+11 BAB: Triple damage.
+16 BAB: Quadruple damage.

If you score a critical hit against the creature, you do not multiply the damage further. Just assume that you rolled max damage on your damage roll.

Diehard
When your hit point total is below 0, but you are not dead, you automatically stabilize. You do not need to make a Constitution check each round to avoid losing additional hit points. You may choose to act as if you were at 1 HP, rather than dying. You must make this decision as soon as you are reduced to negative hit points (even if it isn't your turn).

In addition, your minimum negative hit points are equal to -10 - your Constitution score. If that makes sense.

Disruptive
Prerequisite: Base attack bonus +5.

All enemies that are within your threatened area cannot cast spells defensively. This only applies if you are aware of the enemy's location.

Exotic Weapon Training
Prerequisite: Training in simple and martial weapons.

You gain proficiency in all exotic weapons.

Fleet of Foot
Your base move speed increases by five feet. When running, you move five times your normal speed (if wearing medium, light, or no armor and carrying no more than a medium load) or four times your speed (if wearing heavy armor or carrying a heavy load). If you make a jump after a running start (see the Acrobatics skill description), you gain a +4 bonus on your Acrobatics check. While running, you retain your Dexterity bonus to your Armor Class.

Great Fortitude
You gain a +2 bonus on Fortitude saves, and you gain +1 hit point per HD.

Improved Combat Maneuvers
You do not suffer an attack of opportunity for attempting any combat maneuver. In addition, you gain a +2 bonus to your CMB and CMD, and you may freely intersperse CMB checks in place of attacks in a full attack (taking appropriate penalties as if the attack were an iterative attack).

Improved Critical
Prerequisite: Base attack bonus +5.

All your critical hits automatically confirm.

Improved Feint
You can feint as a move action, and your opponent loses his Dexterity bonus against your attacks until the end of your next turn. In addition, you may treat your attack bonus as being equal to your HD when resisting a feint.

In Harm’s Way
Prerequisite: Bodyguard.
When using your Bodyguard feat and an attack hits your ally anyway, you may opt to take damage and all other associated effects (poison, disease, etc.) for him.

Iron Will
You gain a +2 bonus on Will saves. In addition, you gain the benefits of the Blind Fighting feat. (Which I am too lazy to reproduce here.)

Lightning Reflexes
You gain a +2 bonus on Reflex saves and a +1 dodge bonus to AC. In addition, you can draw or sheathe a weapon as a free action. (This feat replaces the Quick Draw and Dodge feats.)

Lunge
Prerequisite: Base attack bonus +5.

Your reach increases by five feet.

Manyshot
Prerequisite: Precise Shot, base attack bonus +6.

As a standard action, you can make a number of ranged attacks against your enemies. You make a number of ranged attacks depending on your attack bonus (see below), each of which is made against a separate foe. These attacks are all made at your highest attack bonus, and they do additional damage based on your attack bonus (again, see below).

+6 BAB: Three attacks, +1d8 damage.
+11 BAB: Five attacks, +2d8 damage.
+16 BAB: Six attacks, +3d8 damage.

Martial Weapon Training
You gain proficiency in all simple and martial weapons.

Mounted Combat
Prerequisite: Ride 1 rank.

Once per round when your mount is hit in combat, you may attempt a Ride check (as an immediate action) to negate the hit. The hit is negated if your Ride check result is greater than the opponent's attack roll.

When you are mounted and use the charge action, you may move and attack as if with a standard charge and then move again (continuing the straight line of the charge). Your total movement for the round can't exceed double your mounted speed. You and your mount do not provoke an attack of opportunity from the opponent that you attack.

Nimble Moves
You may treat all difficult terrain as normal terrain.

Penetrating Strike
Prerequisite: Base attack bonus +6.
Your weapon attacks may ignore damage reduction based on your base attack bonus.

+6: DR 5/any.
+11: DR 10/any.
+16: DR 15/any.

If your opponent has damage reduction greater than the amount you can ignore, you may reduce his effective damage reduction by the amount you ignore. For instance, if you attack a creature with DR 15/adamantine when you have a +7 attack bonus, you may treat it as having DR 10/adamantine instead.

Power Attack
You gain a bonus on melee damage rolls equal to half your base attack bonus (minimum 1).

Rapid Reload
All weapons you wield that have a reload time of one standard action or less have their reload times shortened to a free action. Weapons that you wield with reload times greater than a standard action have their reload times shortened to a move action.

Shield Master
You gain a +1 bonus to your AC when wielding a shield, you do not lose your shield bonus to AC when performing a shield bash, and you do not suffer a penalty on attack rolls when using a tower shield. In addition, you may apply your shield bonus to your touch AC.

Sidestep
Prerequisite: Dexterity 13.

Whenever an opponent misses you with a melee or ranged attack, you may move 5 feet as an immediate action.

Spring Attack
Prerequisite: Tumble 5 ranks.

As a full-round action, you can move up to twice your speed and make a single melee attack without provoking any attacks of opportunity due to movement. You can move both before and after the attack, but you must move at least 10 feet before the attack and the total distance that you move cannot be greater than twice your speed. You cannot use this ability to attack a foe that is adjacent to you at the start of your turn.

Your attack does additional damage based on your base attack bonus.

+1 BAB: +1d6 damage.
+6 BAB: +3d6 damage.
+11 BAB: +5d6 damage.
+16 BAB: +7d6 damage.

In addition, when you have 10 ranks in Tumble, you may make a second melee attack against a second creature.

Step Up
Prerequisite: Base attack bonus +5.

When an opponent that you threaten takes a five-foot step, you may take a five-foot step as an immediate action to follow him. This does not use up your five-foot step for the round. You may also make an attack of opportunity against your opponent when using this ability.

Strike Back
Prerequisite: Base attack bonus +5.

You can ready an action to make a full melee attack against any foe that attacks you in melee, even if the foe is outside of your reach.

Two-Weapon Fighting
Your penalties on attack rolls for fighting with two weapons are reduced. The penalty for your primary hand lessens by 2 and the one for your off hand lessens by 6. You also get a +2 shield bonus to AC when fighting with two weapons.

In addition, once you have +6 BAB, you can make a second attack with your off-hand weapon at your full attack bonus (though you still take the penalties for fighting with two weapons). (This replaces the TWF, Improved TWF, and Two-Weapon Defense feats.)

Vital Strike
Prerequisites: Base attack bonus +6.

As a standard action, you can make a single attack at your highest attack bonus. If the attack hits, you do additional damage according to your base attack bonus.

+6: +2d8 damage (melee), +2d6 (ranged).
+9: +4d8 damage (melee), +4d6 (ranged).
+11: +7d8 damage (melee), +7d6 (ranged).
+13: +9d8 damage (melee), +9d6 (ranged).
+16: +12d8 damage (melee), +12d6 (ranged).

If you are wielding a weapon in two hands or two-weapon fighting, you do +1 damage per die rolled.

Special: You may use this ability with the melee attack at the end of a charge.

Weapon Focus
Prerequisites: One level in fighter.

Choose a single weapon group (as described in the fighter class description). When using a weapon in that group, you gain benefits depending on your fighter class level.

1st level: +1 on attack rolls.
4th level: +2 on damage rolls.
8th level: +1 on attack rolls (+2 total).
12th level: +2 on damage rolls (+4 total).

Special: You may take this feat more than once. Each time you take it, it applies to a new weapon group.

Wind Stance
Prerequisite: Tumble 5 ranks.

When you move more than five feet in a round, ranged and melee attacks suffer a 20% miss chance against you.


http://paizo.com/forums/dmtz5rsz?LowMagic-Pathfinder-for-Dummies


Earth elementals don't have blood.


princeimrahil wrote:
I'm genuinely puzzled why you think a 5pt difference in one category is significant, but a similar difference in a different category isn't pronounced enough - After a playing a lot of DnD, I generally think of a +5 bonus as being pretty major, and while I have no problem with you taking an opposing stance, you haven't really explained the reasoning behind it.

Because there's a difference between taking a -5 penalty on attack rolls and getting a +5 bonus on Dexterity checks?

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At the very least, I'd like to hear your thoughts about Dex 20 vs Dex 10, because I've always thought that the ability scores were pretty apt in their modeling.

I think that someone so fantastically graceful would have more than a 25% greater chance of success at a Dexterity-related task than the average person. Compare 20 Strength and 10 Strength as an apt comparison. An Olympic lifter versus the average person. Should he have a 25% greater chance of success on Strength-related tasks than Joe Schmoe? What about someone with a 200 IQ (20 Int)? Should he be only 25% better at deciphering scripts than the average shclub? It seems that using the same scale to mdoel Dexterity would have similar results.


A lot of people are interested in playing low-magic campaigns. Unfortunately, this doesn't really work in any variation of 3e, including Pathfinder. There are thus two options to make low-magic function in your home game.

1. Play E6. Stop the game around level six.
2. Listen to me. You mad?

Let's start off with the basics about Pathfinder. At a certain point, you need magical equipment to overcome damage reduction. If you're playing in a game and you encounter DR 15/magic and you don't have a magic sword, you're screwed (unless you have a wizard nearby who can kill the monster for you...which would be using magic). You are also going to be fighting explicitly magical creatures who can cast spells and have access to a host of supernatural abilities. While you might be playing in a low-magic game, the dragons, demons, and fey that you will encounter are not. Because it is assumed that you have a certain amount of magical equipment at each levels, monsters are designed according to such. Unless the DM plans on throwing low CR monsters against you and eyeballing how tough they are compared to your magicless stats, you're in for an extremely rough ride.

Instead of that particular mess, I'm going to present a system for you that allows you to have all the mystery and wonder of a low-magic setting without the headache of pathetic characters. As your characters level up, instead of gaining magic items, they gain inherent bonuses to their abilities. For some people, this will defeat the purpose of a low-magic game. These people should take suggestion #1 and play E6. For others, this may solve the dilemma of having to hand out magic items like candy.

Now, before I introduce the level-by-level guide itself, you need to know that I'm not going to bother with the minutiae that typically suffuses a Pathfinder game. Bonus types, stacking, and so forth don't matter. If you're playing a low-magic game, you're not getting magic items, and you don't have a wizard to throw buffs on everyone. No druids are turning themselves into bears, no clerics are casting righteous might. If they are, you're probably not actually playing a low-magic game. You're playing a "screw the non-casters" game, where the spellcasters get all their nice abilities but the disenfranchised fighter is swining a +1 sword at level 17. But even if that's your style, assume that none of these bonuses stack with any other like bonus. In addition, the later bonuses supercede those from previous levels.

Spoiler:
Level 1: Hah, just kidding. You don't have magical bonuses yet.

Level 3: You gain a +1 bonus on attack and damage rolls. You gain a +1 bonus to your Armor Class. All your attacks are treated as magical for the purposes of overcoming damage reduction.

Level 4: You gain a +2 bonus to a single ability score of your choosing. You gain a +1 bonus on attack and damage rolls. You gain a +1 bonus to your Armor Class. All your attacks are treated as magical for the purposes of overcoming damage reduction.

Level 5: You gain a +2 bonus to two ability scores of your choosing. You gain a +1 bonus on attack and damage rolls. You gain a +1 bonus on saving throws. All your attacks are treated as magical for the purposes of overcoming damage reduction.

Level 6: You gain a +2 bonus on attack and damage rolls. You gain a +2 bonus to your Armor Class. You gain a +1 bonus on saving throws. In addition, when taking a full attack action, you may make an additional attack at your highest attack bonus. You gain a +2 bonus to two ability scores of your choosing.

Level 7: You gain a +4 bonus to one ability score of your choosing. You gain a +2 bonus to a second ability score of your choosing. You gain a +2 bonus on attack and damage rolls. You gain a +2 bonus to your Armor Class. You gain a +1 bonus on saving throws. In addition, when taking a full attack action, you may make an additional attack at your highest attack bonus.

Level 8: You gain a +4 bonus to one ability score of your choosing and a +2 bonus to two other ability scores of your choosing. You gain a +2 bonus on attack and damage rolls. You gain a +2 bonus on saving throws. In addition, when taking a full attack action, you may make an additional attack at your highest attack bonus.

Level 9: You gain a +3 bonus on attack and damage rolls. You gain a +3 bonus to your Armor Class. You gain a +4 bonus to two ability scores of your choosing and a +2 bonus to one other ability score. You gain a +2 bonus on saving throws. In addition, when taking a full attack action, you may make an additional attack at your highest attack bonus.

Level 10: You gain a +6 bonus to one ability score, a +4 bonus to a second ability score, and a +2 bonus to two other ability scores of your choosing. You gain a +3 bonus on attack and damage rolls. You gain a +3 bonus to your Armor Class. You gain a +2 bonus on saving throws. In addition, when taking a full attack action, you may make an additional attack at your highest attack bonus.

Level 11: Your weapons are treated as aligned for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction. You gain a +3 bonus on saving throws. You gain a +6 bonus to one ability score, a +4 bonus to a second ability score, and a +2 bonus to two other ability scores of your choosing. You gain a +3 bonus on attack and damage rolls. You gain a +3 bonus to Armor Class. In addition, when taking a full attack action, you may make an additional attack at your highest attack bonus.

Level 12: You gain a +4 bonus on attack and damage rolls. You gain a +4 bonus to Armor Class. You gain a +6 bonus to one ability score, a +4 bonus to two other ability scores, and a +2 bonus to one other ability score. Your weapons are treated as aligned for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction. You gain a +3 bonus on saving throws. In addition, when taking a full attack action, you may make an additional attack at your highest attack bonus.

Level 13: You gain a +6 bonus to two ability scores, a +4 bonus to one ability score, and a +2 bonus to two other ability scores. You gain a +4 bonus on attack and damage rolls. You gain a +4 bonus to Armor Class. Your weapons are treated as aligned for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction. You gain a +3 bonus on saving throws. In addition, when taking a full attack action, you may make an additional attack at your highest attack bonus.

Level 14: You gain a +4 bonus to saving throws. You gain a +8 bonus to one ability scores, a +6 bonus to one ability score, a +4 bonus to two other ability scores, and a +2 bonus to one other ability score. You gain a +4 bonus on attack and damage rolls. You gain a +4 bonus to Armor Class. Your weapons are treated as aligned for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction. You gain a +3 bonus on saving throws. In addition, when taking a full attack action, you may make an additional attack at your highest attack bonus.

Level 15: You gain a +5 bonus on attack and damage rolls. You gain a +5 bonus to Armor Class. You gain a +4 bonus to saving throws. You gain a +8 bonus to one ability score, a +6 bonus to one ability score, a +4 bonus to two other ability scores, and a +2 bonus to one other ability score. Your weapons are treated as aligned for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction. You gain a +4 bonus on saving throws. In addition, when taking a full attack action, you may make an additional attack at your highest attack bonus.

Level 16: You gain a +8 bonus to one ability score, a +6 bonus to two ability scores, a +4 bonus to two ability scores, and a +2 bonus to one other ability score. You gain a +5 bonus on attack and damage rolls. You gain a +5 bonus to Armor Class. You gain a +4 bonus to saving throws. You gain a +8 bonus to one ability score, a +6 bonus to one ability score, a +4 bonus to two other ability scores, and a +2 bonus to one other ability score. Your weapons are treated as aligned for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction. You gain a +4 bonus on saving throws. In addition, when taking a full attack action, you may make an additional attack at your highest attack bonus.

Level 17: You gain a +8 bonus to two ability scores, a +6 bonus to two ability scores, a +4 bonus to one ability score, and a +2 bonus to one other ability score. You gain a +5 bonus on attack and damage rolls. You gain a +5 bonus to Armor Class. You gain a +4 bonus to saving throws. You gain a +8 bonus to one ability score, a +6 bonus to one ability score, a +4 bonus to two other ability scores, and a +2 bonus to one other ability score. Your weapons are treated as aligned for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction. You gain a +4 bonus on saving throws. In addition, when taking a full attack action, you may make an additional attack at your highest attack bonus.

Level 18: You gain a +6 bonus on attack and damage rolls. You gain a +6 bonus to Armor Class. You gain a +5 bonus on saving throws. You gain a +8 bonus to two ability scores, a +6 bonus to two ability scores, a +4 bonus to one ability score, and a +2 bonus to one other ability score. Your weapons are treated as aligned for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction. In addition, when taking a full attack action, you may make an additional attack at your highest attack bonus.

Level 20: You gain a +10 bonus to one ability score, a +8 bonus to one ability score, a +6 bonus to two ability scores, and a +4 bonus to two other ability scores. You gain a +6 bonus on attack and damage rolls. You gain a +6 bonus to Armor Class. You gain a +5 bonus on saving throws. Your weapons are treated as aligned for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction. In addition, when taking a full attack action, you may make an additional attack at your highest attack bonus.


Now, some people are going to freak out. A PLUS TEN BONUS TO AN ABILITY SCORE BROOOOOOKEN. But let's be brutally honest here: that additional +2 doesn't mean much when you're losing the special properties on weapons and armor and lacking the potency and versatility of spellcasters. Even the 20% miss chance from a minor cloak of displacement will be sorely missed. I increased the bonuses available to the PCs to compensate slightly for their loss of magical items.

You may now discuss.


That's really a misrepresentation of my statement, though I suspect you're attempting to get a rise out of me.


Combat Expertise caps out at -6, and yes, that does make a difference because you're looking at a 30% less chance to hit. Someone with 20 Dexterity, on the other hand, should be more than 25% better than someone with 10 Dexterity. You're looking at the difference between Joe Schmoe on the street and the peak of non-magical human capability.


Pretend it's salt.


Good luck fighting monsters with DR/magic without magic weapons. And without stat boosters. And without magic armor.


I thought people were arguing about getting the shield bonus to AC, as otherwise I can't see why anyone would argue about it.

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Where do you get the -6? Not trying to argue; I just don't see where the -6 comes from.

+5 buckler of awesome.


DeathSpot wrote:

It's a one of these.

It seems that these would be nifty but could very quickly be overdone.


Problem is that dropping Wisdom is almost a necessity to get Str/Con/Dex up on a 15 point buy. 20 point buy is better but not ideal. I do favor the way that 4e allows the better of two stats to add to your saves, though, which is a house rule I plan on implementing in 3e.


What the deuce is a haunt.


Sauce987654321 wrote:
I've always liked fighters because, if built right, can endure nearly anything with no prep.

Except a single spell hitting their Will save.


Quote:

While casters can turn themselves into walking talking magic item shops with no real penalties.

Fighters don't get nice things.


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Surely a difference of -1 on an attack roll isn't worth arguing over?

-6 when enchanted fully.


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I would think there would be a clear difference in someone's speed if you were to compare 10 dexterity to 20. Apparently it doesn't for some people.

If I may step off my trollhorse for a bit, I would comment on this. The problem with D&D is that it does not make enough of a mechanical distinction between someone with 10 Dexterity and 20 Dexterity for this to be true. Even in a post-2e world where every +2 to a stat translates into a +1 bonus, a +5 bonus versus a +0 bonus isn't that much of a difference, especialy not when your numeric randomizer is twenty numbers long.

1d20 + 0 vs. 1d20 + 5 isn't that big of a difference. It's one of the flaws of the d20 system, unfortunately, one that has yet to be rectified.


Aside from being mechanically weak, Combat Expertise's greatest sin is that it's boring. It boosts your AC, and that's it. It doesn't offer any sort of new functionality to the characters who take it. If, for instance, the feat simply made your touch AC equal to your normal AC, it might do what Ravingdork wants. But, as it is, it shifts some numbers around, which is not particularly interesting.

It's a shame, really. Even though I'm a s&~!poster, I do have a soft spot in my heart for 3e/Pathfinder, and I would much rather have it succeed than fail.


Best not to play with people so easily offended.


KramlmarK wrote:

*real-world atheist talking*

If he wants to play a character who denies the existence of the PF gods who actively involve themselves in mortal affairs and occasionally visit, he's going to be playing a character who is in willed denial of observed phenomena and calling it an atheist. Now, I can't control what you do at your table, but I would find that incredibly offensive, since it echoes a real-world view held by some religious folk that atheists are just "too blind to see God around them" (whatever that means).

If there's anyone at the table who is an atheist in real life, at least check with them before allowing that character into my game. I wouldn't allow that character in any more than I would allow someone to play a black character with an int of 4 or a gay character with a str of 6 who whines when he gets hit. Offensive stereotypes are offensive, and nobody should be having real-world feelings hurt over this game.

That said, if he just wants to play an atheist but has no idea how to make that concept work, I'd suggest following: "Gods and us are wrought from the same stuff, they're just more powerful. I see no reason to worship a being that is every bit as fallible as I am. Fear, yes. Respect, maybe. But worship? Not unless they can prove to me that they're somehow different from the most powerful mortals."

You're basically taking away the divinity of "gods" with that ideology, which is as close to real-world atheism as you're going to get in Golarion.

Better watch out, OP--this guy finds that character offensive.


2 people marked this as a favorite.

This thread is a piece of crit.


At low levels, hey're decent. At high levels, they're a speedbump. Because of how deadly high-level 3e/Pathfinder combat is, the goal is to explode your enemies as fast as possible before they explode you, the loss on damage rolls is not worth the AC bonus.


Quote:
It has nothing to do with optimization, and everything to do with how one confronts the game and treats the other players.

I hope the DM takes all that roleplaying into consideration when writing up encounters. Wouldn't want anyone's character to get hurt.


You guys are optimizing, you can't optimize and roleplay!!!


TOZ: I miscalculated, I was thinking of +2 points of Con and a +1 Con bonus, and I mixed them up in my head in doing HP calculations. However, my point still stands: bonus HP and another feat would do more to help the character survive than Combat Expertise.

Ravingdork wrote:
If the entire party is tanking than nobody is dying. That seems like a pretty effective party to me. If even one guy isn't tanking, then suddenly the other tanks have to divert resources to protect him. That doesn't seem so efficient to me.

If everyone is tanking, then the enemy isn't dying, either. And the enemy is probably going to be throwing out non-tankable effects (spells and supernatural abilities).


Quote:
The way it is currently set up, every rogue will start with an 18 Dex, every fighter with an 18 Str, every sorcerer with an 18 Cha (even if he's a sage when he should be using Int).

Since when does a sorcerer ever use Int? Never.

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It first assumes that characters can only survive with an 18 in their primary stat, which is false.

No, that's just me being generous.

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It then assumes some classes need more than others.

An accurate assumption. Monks, for instance, need Strength for their attack rolls and damage, Dexterity for AC, Wisdom for AC, and Constitution for HP. On the other hand, fighters need only three of those states.


Rolling characters is superior to failure-inherent communist point buy.


TriOmegaZero wrote:
How did you get 22 extra HP from a +1 Con boost at 11th Tom?

Good question.


Just think if you had gotten your Con up to another +1 bonus--the +1 Fortitude/+22 HP would have saved you much better.


Quote:
The only thing wrong with that is that you're basically pressing martials to be Einstein to use the feat respectably. I'm not really sure I like the idea that I'd have to have a 22 Int to get the basic functionality out of my feat. O.o

I also remove it as a pre-requisite for everything.


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I removed a post. If you know a post is going to be removed, please save everyone some time and don't post it.

On the bright side, it wasn't me this time.


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Yes and that rage for barbarians gives the same bonus to attack as Weapon Training and slightly more damage. Less attack and the same damage when you consider they don't get the gloves of dueling.

Then you take into account the fact that there's an entire line of feats just for fighters including +4 damage, +1 attack, and piercing DR 10/Anything but unbypassable.

Furthermore they get 11 more feats than the other class and an effective -5 to armor penalties and +5 Max Dex bonus. Only class in the game that effects armor by that much, meaning and archer can wear mithral platemail and still get full dex bonus to AC.

Fighters get lots of nice things on their own merits. We haven't even considered their DR 5/- or the auto crit confirmation and +1 to the multiplier.

I would drop weapon and armor training, actually. I'm talking about my "ideal" version of 3e, anyway. You should see what I did to Vital Strike if you think the fighter is powerful now.


My "solution" to CE is to change it so that you add your Int bonus to AC, CMB, and CMD, up to one point per two points of BAB.


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Well, they don't.

Newest house rule in my games.


PROTIP: This debacle could have been avoided if the monk had full BAB and free TWF.


Robespierre wrote:
I personally think that classes should be stripped of their fluff and made solely for statistically character development. That way people have more liberty when creating their own personal character to fit their backstory.

No, thank you. D&D needs less My Unique Snowflake in it, not more.

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Also I'm wondering what Tom actually knows what balance is considering he praises traditional D&D and says that 4e is balanced.

Older editions of D&D were more balanced than 3e, and 4e is more balanced than 3e (even though 4e sucks).

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I personally think that arbitrarily lowering bab will not solve the problem with fighters. Rather it'll just limit character creation freedom and funnel certain classes into a support role. Bards will no longer be viable as melee skirmishers or archers. No one will play the barbarian considering the fighter will be explicitly the best melee class. The cleric will never be able to hybrid again effectively. Both the inquisitor and magus will never be played again. If you really want to improve the balance of the game I suggest buffing the fighter rather then making some classes unplayable and pushing others into the full caster role.

Inquisitor and magus both should have had full BAB to begin with, so I'd put them at 3/4. Barbarian gets to rage and have powers. Clerics get enough nice things without melee (and they'll only be missing out on +2 BAB at level 10, so half the game they can melee fine).


Ice Titan wrote:
Why do paladins get 18 Wisdom when they do not use Wisdom for any of their class abilities?

I'm drunk.

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What if I want a social rogue, who is Charisma based instead of Dexterity based? Or a skill monkey rogue (Intelligence instead of Dexterity)? Or play my fighter as an archer (Dexterity instead of strength)? Or my ranger as an archer (Dexterity instead of Wisdom)?

Then put your points into those stats. Nothing is stopping you from doing so; I merely gave everyone a leg-up, especially considering that the basic point buy is 15.


Without rewriting the system, there are some classes that need more stats than others. Monks and paladins, for instance. So here's how I'm thinking point buy should work for classes. Single-classed only, of course; if you allow multi-classing, this will fall apart.

Monks: 18 Wisdom, 22 point buy.
Paladins: 18 Charisma, 18 point buy.
Fighters & Barbarians: 18 Strength, 16 point buy.
Bards: 18 Charisma, 16 point buy.
Rangers: 18 Wisdom, 16 point buy.
Rogues: 18 Dexterity, 16 point buy.
Clerics & Druids: 18 Wisdom, 13 point buy.
Wizards: 18 Intelligence, 13 point buy.
Sorcerers: 18 Charisma, 13 point buy.

Thoughts?


Making some feat revisions per suggestions.

Penetrating Strike
Prerequisite: Base attack bonus +6.
Your weapon attacks may ignore damage reduction based on your base attack bonus.
+6: DR 5/any.
+11: DR 10/any.
+16: DR 15/any.

Power Attack
You gain a bonus on melee damage rolls equal to half your base attack bonus (minimum 1).

Deadly Aim
You gain a bonus on ranged damage rolls equal to one-third your base attack bonus (minimum 1).

Weapon Focus
Prerequisites: One level in fighter.
Choose a single weapon group (as described in the fighter class description). When using a weapon in that group, you gain benefits depending on your fighter class level.

1st level: +1 on attack rolls.
4th level: +2 on damage rolls.
8th level: +1 on attack rolls (+2 total).
12th level: +2 on damage rolls (+4 total).

Special: You may take this feat more than once. Each time you take it, it applies to a new weapon group.

Wind Stance
Prerequisite: Tumble 5 ranks.
When you move more than five feet in a round, ranged and melee attacks suffer a 20% miss chance against you.

Lightning Stance
Prerequisite: Tumble 10 ranks.
The miss chance from Wind Stance improves to 50%.

Now, on to some new feats.

• Arcane Armor Training/Master. Two feats to reduce your ASF by 20%. By using a swift action. This is less bad without Quicken Spell (u mad, wizards?), but is still not worth it.

Arcane Armor Mastery
Prerequisite: Caster level third.
You reduce the total arcane spell failure of the armor and shields you wear by 20%.

• Combat Expertise gives me fits. If you want to encourage Int-based fighters, you need to give them some incentive to divert points from their other stats to do so.

Combat Expertise
Prerequistes: Intelligence 13
You may add one point of your Intelligence bonus to your AC, CMB, and CMD for every two points of base attack bonus you have (with a minimum of a +1 bonus).

• Bodyguard is a turd. You can use up an AOO to attempt to improve an ally’s AC. By +2. That’s awful.

Bodyguard
When an ally within your reach is attacked, you may use an attack of opportunity to improve your ally’s AC by +2 or your shield bonus, whichever is higher.

• Rapid Reload is a very much bad feat that needs to stop sucking so crossbow archers have a reason to exist.

Rapid Reload
All weapons you wield that have a reload time of one standard action or less have their reload times shortened to a free action. Weapons that you wield with reload times greater than a standard action have their reload times shortened to a move action.

• Death or Glory is perhaps the most disappointing feat I have ever read, even worse than the 3e Toughness.

Death or Glory
Prerequisite: Base attack bonus +6.
As a standard action, you can make a single melee attack roll against a creature, rolling twice and taking the better result. This attack deals additional damage, but the creature may immediately make an attack of opportunity against you in response (after you have finished rolling damage against it). However, the damage from the creature’s attack of opportunity is multiplied in a like fashion, making this quite a gambit. This damage done by you and the creature depends on your respective base attack bonuses.

+6 BAB: Double damage.
+11 BAB: Triple damage.
+16 BAB: Quadruple damage.

If you score a critical hit against the creature, you do not multiply the damage further. Just assume that you rolled max damage on your damage roll.

• Feinting should be a viable combat tactic, not something that punishes rogues for trying to get in their sneak attacks.

Improved Feint
You can feint as a move action, and your opponent loses his Dexterity bonus against your attacks until the end of your next turn. In addition, you may treat your attack bonus as being equal to your HD when resisting a feint.

• In Harm’s Way needed to be beefed up slightly. Only using it 1/round is disappointing.

In Harm’s Way
Prerequisite: Bodyguard.
When using your Bodyguard feat and an attack hits your ally anyway, you may opt to take damage and all other associated effects (poison, disease, etc.) for him.

• Manyshot is pointless. The 3e incarnation was to allow archers to make a plethora of attacks with a standard action. The Pathfinder version exists to improve full attacks. The system needs to give a reason not to be full attacking each round.

Manyshot
Prerequisite: Precise Shot, base attack bonus +6.
As a standard action, you can make a number of ranged attacks against your enemies. You make a number of ranged attacks depending on your attack bonus (see below), each of which is made against a separate foe. These attacks are all made at your highest attack bonus, and they do additional damage based on your attack bonus (again, see below).

+6 BAB: Three attacks, +1d8 damage.
+11 BAB: Four attacks, +2d8 damage.
+16 BAB: Five attacks, +3d8 damage.

• Sidestep I do like, but not that it uses up your five-foot step. Or that you have to remain in the opponent’s threatened area. Or that it doesn’t apply against ranged attacks. (PROTIP: Paizo, we don’t really care if a character gets an extra five-foot step in a round. It’s not THE END OF THE WORLD that characters can move slightly farther than their move speed.)

Sidestep
Prerequisite: Dexterity 13.
Whenever an opponent misses you with a melee or ranged attack, you may move 5 feet as an immediate action.

• Spring Attack remains awful. Why? I do not know. Possibly because the writers of 3e and Pathfinder abhor the concept of fighters moving around in combat, which makes loads of sense.

Spring Attack
Prerequisite: Tumble 5 ranks.
As a full-round action, you can move up to twice your speed and make a single melee attack without provoking any attacks of opportunity due to movement. You can move both before and after the attack, but you must move at least 10 feet before the attack and the total distance that you move cannot be greater than twice your speed. You cannot use this ability to attack a foe that is adjacent to you at the start of your turn.

Your attack does additional damage based on your base attack bonus.

+1 BAB: +2d6 damage.
+6 BAB: +4d6 damage.
+11 BAB: +7d6 damage.
+16 BAB: +10d6 damage.

In addition, when you have 10 ranks in Tumble, you may make a second melee attack against a second creature.

• Strike Back is a good idea, but ultimately is a tit. You have to be level 11 to use it? Dumb. Also, readying actions is a lose-lose situation in a game of full attacks, unless you’re doing extra damage.

Strike Back
Prerequisite: Base attack bonus +5.
You can ready an action to make a melee attack against any foe that attacks you in melee, even if the foe is outside of your reach. Your attack does additional damage based on your base attack bonus.

+1 BAB: +1d8 damage.
+6 BAB: +3d8 damage.
+11 BAB: +6d8 damage.
+16 BAB: +9d8 damage.


If you want a lazy man's approach to the system, have the PCs add half their level to everything, including damage rolls. It gives them a slight edge, but ultimately you're reproducing the effects of a +6 stat booster and a +5 something-or-another (weapon, ring of protection, cloak of resistence, etc.).


Don't like them very much, or wealth-by-level, for that matter (or the way that wealth-by-level and crafted magical items work together). Magic equipment should be in the hands of the DM and the loot tables, not the players.

Just my two cents.


I'm just a grouch. Out of 2e, 3.0, 3.5, Pathfinder, 4e, and Essentials, I would choose to play Pathfinder. I'm hoping that 5e is good enough to steal my attention, however.


Seriously, why would anyone care what SKR thinks about rules or balance? He defended the Paizo vow of poverty monk on the basis of "poverty sucks (so your character should suck for playing this class)." Just ignore him and do whatever you think is best in your games; tossing a coin would probably provide more accurate answers than SKR.

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