Also, think how silly the rounds/level concept is. Lem can only play his Flute 2.8 minutes a day, lol. All concert musians must be Epic level.
No, no.
Lem can play his flute many hours every day, just like concert flautists can.
But Lem, unlike your typical flautist, can spend 2.8 minutes a day producing wonderful magical effects with his flute.
If Pathfinder runs like 3.5 does, my experience is that 28 combat rounds isn't too far off from the point where the party decides to pack it in and heal wounds/recover spells after a tough day of fighting.
Even if the duration tends to be short, it seems to me that the Pathfinder bard is shifting away from the 3.5 standard of, "I can help my friends and on occasion be useful at something else," to, "I can help my friends and kick some ass myself." Bards now have more spells, more hit points, and the ability at higher levels to cause some serious hurt with their performance abilities. I think these are all good changes that more than outweigh the apparent reduction in bardic performances per day - and quite honestly, I don't know that the number of performances per day will really take that much of a hit, especially now that bards have a more diverse set of useful abilities.
If Pathfinder runs like 3.5 does, my experience is that 28 combat rounds isn't too far off from the point where the party decides to pack it in and heal wounds/recover spells after a tough day of fighting.
Even if the duration tends to be short, it seems to me that the Pathfinder bard is shifting away from the 3.5 standard of, "I can help my friends and on occasion be useful at something else," to, "I can help my friends and kick some ass myself." Bards now have more spells, more hit points, and the ability at higher levels to cause some serious hurt with their performance abilities. I think these are all good changes that more than outweigh the apparent reduction in bardic performances per day - and quite honestly, I don't know that the number of performances per day will really take that much of a hit, especially now that bards have a more diverse set of useful abilities.
I agree. It should be noted, however, that the Inspire Courage buff is still going to last all day long, effectively. Use the power, linger 5 rounds, use the power, linger 5 rounds. That's 12 rounds with 2 rounds of uses. I see this as not even a little bit of a nerf, though I admit that the bard I played used to stop performing between encounters, rather than keep Inspire Courage up all day.
Inspire Competence takes one round when you make the check. So with one round (better than one daily performance), you can improve a skill check. There is a little bit more difficulty when climbing that 500' cliff, but was a bard really singing all the way up cliffs with any regularity in 3.5e? Some scenarios are better, some are worse. No nerf.
The fictional bard who fascinated townsfolk for hours while his friends picked their pockets was breaking the rules anyway. Fascinate lasted 1 round/level with a performance. Clearly the duration of Fascinate is now reduced overall, assuming you wanted to use multiple performances for Fascinate. (Bards get 2 rounds/level instead of 1 performance/level.) However, with some limited exceptions, the Fascinate attempts I have seen were not an effort to get someone to stare blankly for a long time. It was usually to get past the victim or obtain a specific item without fuss or to make a Suggestion. So there isn't much of a nerf here. Indeed, if you only need to Fascinate for a moment, you are better off with the change. I think, again, sometimes better, sometimes worse; so no nerf.
Countersong takes 1 round instead of 1 use. Better.
Overall, better. You will accomplish a greater variety of magical effects with your bardic music, and the buff power can be up whenever there is combat. Plus, and possibly most importantly, the music takes fewer action resources.
I agree. It should be noted, however, that the Inspire Courage buff is still going to last all day long, effectively. Use the power, linger 5 rounds, use the power, linger 5 rounds.
Not necessarily.
We don't have any confirmation about the lingering effect.
In fact, I'd guess that doesn't exist.
EDIT: Ninja'ed by 45 seconds...
EDIT: Ninja'ed by 45 seconds...
Well, ninjas are notoriously speedy...
I don't know that the "linger" effect has been confirmed to be in the final. Has it?I agree. It should be noted, however, that the Inspire Courage buff is still going to last all day long, effectively. Use the power, linger 5 rounds, use the power, linger 5 rounds. That's 12 rounds with 2 rounds of uses. I see this as not even a little bit of a nerf, though I admit that the bard I played used to stop performing between encounters, rather than keep Inspire Courage up all day.
That's a good point. Still, the economy of action makes me think the overall benefit to the bard is either greater (with lingering effect) or no worse (without).
Per 3.5 or Beta rules, the bard on Easy settings would most likely just start playing anyway. As my husband pointed out, if the bard's going to play every round of every combat, all the players might as well mark down the +2 as a permanent part of their character sheet.It seems to me that this is the expectation that many folks have of the bard. I would suggest that if Inspire Courage were intended to be a permanent boost the ability would simply be listed as an aura. "Allies within 50' of the bard gain a +x bonus to attacks and damage."
A bard can only have one effect up at a time. Inspire Competence is useful in combat too, but so is Distraction and Countersong. So there is still having to decide which one you want to go with each round. There's also dropping Inspire Courage to cast a spell or wand a critical juncture. It's not "Just Press Play".
Never did I think that Inspire Courage would never be dropped ever in combat. There's always something that might crop up where the Bard's other abilities are needed.
A bard can only have one effect up at a time. Inspire Competence is useful in combat too, but so is Distraction and Countersong. So there is still having to decide which one you want to go with each round. There's also dropping Inspire Courage to cast a spell or wand a critical juncture. It's not "Just Press Play".
Nuh uh. Not if he 'twists'.
Now, for a little Selo's Accelerando...
That's a good point. Still, the economy of action makes me think the overall benefit to the bard is either greater (with lingering effect) or no worse (without).I don't know that the "linger" effect has been confirmed to be in the final. Has it?I agree. It should be noted, however, that the Inspire Courage buff is still going to last all day long, effectively. Use the power, linger 5 rounds, use the power, linger 5 rounds. That's 12 rounds with 2 rounds of uses. I see this as not even a little bit of a nerf, though I admit that the bard I played used to stop performing between encounters, rather than keep Inspire Courage up all day.
That entirely depends on how long your typical combats are; and be effect the number of average combat rounds per day. In my group it's between 40 and 50 combat rounds a day which would require Lem to be level 16-20 or take Extra Music a bunch.
But the issue here isn't one of the mechanic being unsound for combat. That can be fixed by multiplying their your groups average combat rounds per day and dividing by the author's average combat rounds per day (20). That gives us a x2 factor in my games.
But regardless of whether or not people think that you should be able to have the buff every round that was clearly in mind when they setup the system. They just figured a lower number than the people who are having issue.
Secondly it seems that they didn't really explain how rounds/day interacts with Inspire Competence when many skill tasks require multiple rounds, but only one check. If you have to play the entire time than you might end up blowing your entire day's Bardic Music on a single disguise check.
As yes, but I'm not the GM in all my games which means sometimes I'm going to be on the losing end of the stick.
My serious suggestion: Buy a black marker when you get your pathfinder (3.5 melee) books and just "fix" all the issues you have with it. I know it's what I am doing, 3.5 melee has some nice changes and some truly terrible ones. Change the ones that don't work for you and make it a good game for you and your group.
I think you will find that the best way for your group to deal with rules changes is to sit and discuss the rules you will use together and then each DM sticks to what is decided by the collective. In my group that is how we deal with it, has been since '88. We have already started throwing 3.5 Melee around and mostly they want to mix beta and 3.5. Funny in my group I am the one saying we give melee edition a try, but on these boards I am very negative about it because I really do not like how they seem to have basically nerfed spell casters with no meaningful buff to help off set it.
But the reason I say house rule it for those who hate that idea is this is in stone already. No debate or arguement you make can change it. So you need to understand if something breaks the game for you either you don't get melee edition or you house rule those things you see as a problem. You really have no other choice at this time.
As with how they changed DC and went with it without feedback they have done the same with the bard uses per day. They did not let you know their final idea before it was published so you never had a real chance to argue it. So either lump it, house rule it, or don't get melee edition.
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My serious suggestion: Buy a black marker when you get your pathfinder (3.5 melee) books and just "fix" all the issues you have with it. I know it's what I am doing, 3.5 melee has some nice changes and some truly terrible ones. Change the ones that don't work for you and make it a good game for you and your group.But bards need that boost to make up for the fact that they suck in combat. Instead of doing 16 damage to the baddie like my barbarian, rogue or sorcerer friends, I make each person hit a little more often and do a little more damage.
That's the whole point. All of that little bit extra adds up big time. The bard forgoes that personal glory and leads their team to victory. They don't have to be accomplished at dealing the hurt, although they can be pretty effective with the right choices.
EG. I could see a half orc bard with TWF, a double axe, arcane strike and inspire courage laying down a lot of hurt. Not as good as the fighter, but better than the wizard and probably the cleric.
I don't think anywhere I was advocating that the bard should be able to dish out the hurt directly. I'm just saying, don't limit his boosting ability in combat, it's one of the few things he has.
Now if they had increased the DC of his illusion and enchantment spells then we might have been talking, but in combat the bard will fail at most things besides Bardic Music. I just wanted it to last as long as it could.
By 4th or 5th level you should have everything you need to survive every fight and get in those critical rounds of boosting. Now you'll have to take Extra Music a number of times to get that same benefit (at least where I play). I don't like must have feats (though I loathe to bring that up because it'll cause yet another religious war).
My serious suggestion, just use a combination of the 3.0 and 1e spell lists. Update the casting mechanics for 3.5/PfRPG, but keep the original description/effect. That way, magic is still magic, and not some watered down pale imitation of D&D magic...
A bard can only have one effect up at a time. Inspire Competence is useful in combat too, but so is Distraction and Countersong. So there is still having to decide which one you want to go with each round. There's also dropping Inspire Courage to cast a spell or wand a critical juncture. It's not "Just Press Play".Nuh uh. Not if he 'twists'.
Now, for a little Selo's Accelerando...
He can take the 1950's by storm!
My serious suggestion, just use a combination of the 3.0 and 1e spell lists. Update the casting mechanics for 3.5/PfRPG, but keep the original spell descriptions
Wouldn't that presume that the groups have 1e material which I can assure you no one in my gaming circles does. But for people that do, that is in fact a good suggestion.
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My serious suggestion, just use a combination of the 3.0 and 1e spell lists. Update the casting mechanics for 3.5/PfRPG, but keep the original spell descriptionsWouldn't that presume that the groups have 1e material which I can assure you no one in my gaming circles does. But for people that do, that is in fact a good suggestion.
In lieu of the 1e materials, you can download OSRIC for free :)
In lieu of the 1e materials, you can download OSRIC for free :)My serious suggestion, just use a combination of the 3.0 and 1e spell lists. Update the casting mechanics for 3.5/PfRPG, but keep the original spell descriptionsWouldn't that presume that the groups have 1e material which I can assure you no one in my gaming circles does. But for people that do, that is in fact a good suggestion.
Where? And understand I'm not a traditional D&D player and have no idea what OSRIC is.
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This was the first link that popped up on Google. I'm sure there are other sites you can download it as well :)
If you have to play the entire time than you might end up blowing your entire day's Bardic Music on a single disguise check.
Ahh, I can see it now:
Sergeant: Guards! We're looking for a fugitive bard. He's wanted for questioning. Have you seen any bards recently?
Guard: Nope, not a one.
DM: The guards hear the soothing yet inspiration sounds of a lute and they run off to investigate.
Sergeant: Oh crud, turns out to be nothing. Just a musically telented shepherd, playing his lute on his way out of town to tend his flock.
Guards: We'll keep looking for a bard, sir.
DM: A few minutes go by as the guards watch the shepherd walk away, playing his lute. Suddenly the music stops...
Guard: *points* Hey, wait a minute. Doesn't that lute-playing shepherd look a lot like a lute-playing bard now?
Sergeant: Oh, you're right. Get him, guards!
He can take the 1950's by storm!Nuh uh. Not if he 'twists'.
Now, for a little Selo's Accelerando...
Give Run 8 to everyone :)Nuh uh. Not if he 'twists'.
Now, for a little Selo's Accelerando...
LOL, introducing Chubby Checker, the quintessential Everquest halfling bard!
There is something oddly appropriate about that...
If you have to play the entire time than you might end up blowing your entire day's Bardic Music on a single disguise check.Ahh, I can see it now:
Sergeant: Guards! We're looking for a fugitive bard. He's wanted for questioning. Have you seen any bards recently?
Guard: Nope, not a one.
DM: The guards hear the soothing yet inspiration sounds of a lute and they run off to investigate.
Sergeant: Oh crud, turns out to be nothing. Just a musically telented shepherd, playing his lute on his way out of town to tend his flock.
Guards: We'll keep looking for a bard, sir.
DM: A few minutes go by as the guards watch the shepherd walk away, playing his lute. Suddenly the music stops...
Guard: *points* Hey, wait a minute. Doesn't that lute-playing shepherd look a lot like a lute-playing bard now?
Sergeant: Oh, you're right. Get him, guards!
Cute. But mechanically the check is adjusted by what was in use during the crafting of the disguise, not each time is checked against. Otherwise it would be
DM: A few minutes go by as the guards watch the shepherd walk away, playing his loot. He drops his disguise kit...
Guard: *points* Hey, wait a minute. Doesn't that lute-playing shepherd look a lot like a lute-playing bard now without his disguise kit?
Sergeant: Oh, you're right. Get him, guards!
I have a bit of a problem with the "just house rule it" way of thinking.
Stop playing. Now.
:P
PRPG exists to be a continuation of of 3.5, as we all know. However, there is already a free resource that does exactly that.
Cool! I'll just buy that instead. Do you have the ISBN?
Both systems (as all systems) can be houseruled, of course. However, the more issues a group finds with PRPG, the more likely it is to just stick with the SRD, maybe incorporating some things from the free beta into their houserules without buying the pathfinder final version.
Yeah? So?
There's a lot of people who like PF a lot better, and they'll buy the PFRPG and just houserule a couple of things, or maybe use some 3e rules.
PFRPG can't be the best game for everyone. Not until the Borg take over Paizo and the Universe.
Also, 3.5 has the advantage, for current players, the group already having all the books they want, and of the free SRD. PRPG has the advantage of being in print, and in time will have new source material/adventures/etc.[
PF has the advantage that the 3.5 books still work with it, and that it will get a free SRD(-like resource) of its own.
Which of these trumps for which group will, of course, depend on the group. I'd posit that some groups will do one, and some the other. Whether paizo could have designed a game that would have minimized the stay-with-3.5 crowd if they had only done XYZ is unknowable.
Just as it is unknowable how many people will buy the game for those changes, not despite of them; how many people wouldn't have bought otherwise; how many people that brings into the fold of 3e.
That's the whole point. All of that little bit extra adds up big time. The bard forgoes that personal glory and leads their team to victory.
Huh? What are you talking about? Bards don't forgo personal glory.
Think about it. Upon whom is glory heaped? People who do glorious deeds, right?
Wrong! Glory goes to those who are known to have done glorious deeds, those who are ever so eloquently remembered in epic and song.
Now, where do those songs and epics come from? :D
Also, think how silly the rounds/level concept is. Lem can only play his Flute 2.8 minutes a day, lol. All concert musians must be Epic level.Yeah, and wizards can only say "abra cadabra, burst into flame you bastard!" a couple of times per day! Wacky!
And warriors can swing their sword real hard only once per d- no wait, that was 4e. :D
My serious suggestion, just use a combination of the 3.0 and 1e spell lists. Update the casting mechanics for 3.5/PfRPG, but keep the original spell descriptionsWouldn't that presume that the groups have 1e material which I can assure you no one in my gaming circles does. But for people that do, that is in fact a good suggestion.
Most certainly I have the 1st ed books and the PDFs. Bought many of the PDFs from here not too long ago.
I'm finding this very hard to believe given the design of the 3e cleric. I'm going to have to ask you to find the citation on it for me since you're the one who says you've seen it before I'll take this at face value.
Fair enough. I'll post a link once I find the interview or a source you might accept.
You can't look at just 2e when assessing the cleric changes. 3e's changes were designed, deliberately, with a return to 1e form in mind.
Are we talking about 1st Edition? The same edition were every cleric/wizard/druid was exactly the same? I think the 2nd Edition cleric was miles better, comparing it to 1st Edition seems suitable to me as I consider it a step backwards. Also the cleric class seems to be the only class with which this was done. All other classes got nothing but more options and enhanments to abilities which they had in 2nd Edition.
Spontaneous casting frees them of that so they can be something other than a healbot (whether or not circumstances pull them into that task).
How?!
I honestly don't see this, how does providing more healing powers make the class less healing focused. If a cleric doesn't have access to healing spells, they can't heal, so they need to use their spell slots for other stuff.
If they can heal, and do heal, then they use up their resources healing (resources not only consiting of spell slots and other ability usage, but action resources as well). Not only that, if a party is in need of healing, they're going to turn to the person with healing abilities as a class feautre before they turn to others.
Meanwhile, if someone actually tries to play a heal-bot, the cleric is really the only viable option. If they try to make a heal-bot using say... a druid or bard, the moment another player tries a good-aligned cleric they can kiss that role goodbye. Partly the reason why I prefer the 2nd Edition version is because if a cleric wanted to heal, they had to (heaven forefend) actually take the healing domain.
Getting back to this thread, first, just about everything about the Pathfinder Bard is a wonderful improvement and very much need to possibly/finally bring the class up to par with the others as reasonable choice. (Although to be very honest what the Beta Bard was almost basically spot on and need nothing changed. Even the split in 'focus' was good as every other class was more or less give the same this-or-that choice.)
However, I'm still going to come back to the fact that the Rounds/Day value is way to low. Using Jason's own '5 rounds' per combat logic, if we kept Uses Per Day, we would see the PF bard as having 9 use per day at 20th level. This is a major nerf to a class that did not deserve it at all, as I've said before.
I don't necessarily object to using Round/Day, but I will not quietly accept such a ridiculous lowball. I'd imagine every Barbarian player would be up in arms if the number of Rage Rounds was cut to the equivalent of 3 uses per day. Or a Druids Wildshape getting cut to 4 per day with no unlimited use.
Even what I said before about 5 rounds/level is a shade low. As Freesword pointed out minimum old use in combat was 6 rounds of effect per use. Although the 1st round is dubious as you many not get everyone in the party due to initiative order.
10 minutes of effect per day at 20th level, instead of 4.5 minutes (minimum), that's all I'm asking people to consider. Does no one else, aside from Freesword, see that this aspect of the Bard has been horribly undercut from what it was?
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I just wanted to pop in here and say I like the bard. I've been against the last two previews, well mostly the cleric one, but I think the Bard looks very solid.
From what I understand, the 4E Bard went way overboard, being better at it than any class they emulate.
Not sure I understand the skill thing for perform (they can use perform ranks in place of any two skill ranks?), but I don't think that is such a major problem.
Anyway, great job. Erik Mona said I win, and I'm saying good work with that kind of backing. . .
One, let's keep the spell nerfs discussion out of this thread unless is specifically has to deal with the ones previewed with the Bard.
Getting back to this thread, first, just about everything about the Pathfinder Bard is a wonderful improvement and very much need to possibly/finally bring the class up to par with the others as reasonable choice. (Although to be very honest what the Beta Bard was almost basically spot on and need nothing changed. Even the split in 'focus' was good as every other class was more or less give the same this-or-that choice.)
However, I'm still going to come back to the fact that the Rounds/Day value is way to low. Using Jason's own '5 rounds' per combat logic, if we kept Uses Per Day, we would see the PF bard as having 9 use per day at 20th level. This is a major nerf to a class that did not deserve it at all, as I've said before.
I don't necessarily object to using Round/Day, but I will not quietly accept such a ridiculous lowball. I'd imagine every Barbarian player would be up in arms if the number of Rage Rounds was cut to the equivalent of 3 uses per day. Or a Druids Wildshape getting cut to 4 per day with no unlimited use.
Even what I said before about 5 rounds/level is a shade low. As Freesword pointed out minimum old use in combat was 6 rounds of effect per use. Although the 1st round is dubious as you many not get everyone in the party due to initiative order.
10 minutes of effect per day at 20th level, instead of 4.5 minutes (minimum), that's all I'm asking people to consider. Does no one else, aside from Freesword, see that this aspect of the Bard has been horribly undercut from what it was?
Actually the preview of the Barbarian will likely look exactly like this. After the beta was released there was a revised Barbarian posted on the boards and it was CON + 4 at first and 2 more per level -- all in rounds.
And it's 12 minutes if all uses were used for Inspire Courage under 3.5 versus 4-5 minutes at 20. But one can't simply compare against level 20. It's a bad place to go since all you ever do is look at where people are playing for the shortest amount of time.
At first, the Final bard might have a few round left over at the end of a single combat which is about the same as beta. However at level two, the beta bard can do two full combats while the final bard can only do it if the fights are 5 rounds or less. At third we start seeing the wheels come off the wagon and now we're looking at 16 rounds minimum for the beta versus 12 for the final (assuming +4 CHA). Then at level 4 20 rounds minimum and pretty much every fight covered versus 14 for the final and they're not even at 3 fights yet even under Jason's 5 rounds a fight. The beta bard is going around using his excess round for an Inspire Competence.
But the system isn't flawed, it just doesn't scale well. So instead why not make it so that the bard gets say 6 a round which would cover a single fight (also happens to be CHA + 2). But you also make it so that Inspire Competence requires the bard go for the entire duration of the skill it's trying to fix. Though still that might not be as good as the original beta format. Not sure, but I'm going to wait and see.
Actually the preview of the Barbarian will likely look exactly like this. After the beta was released there was a revised Barbarian posted on the boards and it was CON + 4 at first and 2 more per level -- all in rounds.
Which is where I'm getting my ammo for how under cut the Bard got. Assuming a 10 Con Barbarian at 20th level 42 round (PF) vs 30 (3.5). At 18 Con its 46 (PF) vs 48 (3.5). this is darn near spot on to what the 3.5 was doing, although it really starts loosing out at higher stat values. I don't think the Barbarian players would be very happy if in the final it was CON + 4 at first and 1 more per level.
I agree that using the shortest time isn't a good thing for setting the value, however it is the most reasonable compromise point give that many combat uses of Bardic music went well beyond that limit. And it doesn't take into account uses of Inspire Competence or Fascinate. Mainly to placate those non-bard players who think a Bard shouldn't be able to buff-sing all day.
4 + Cha at 1st and 2 + Cha every level there after may be the better scaling formula. Although again using minimum values you should look at a Cha of 16 not 18, as that's the lowest you can go and still cast all the Bard spells. I stand by a flat 5 per level as the simplest change.
I'm posting this because it's being said over and over on this thread. I think we've gotten the picture, and by that I mean everyone on both sides and on the fence have all heard it. I would suggest this thread could be better used to discuss the rest of the bard features without having to slog through a dozen posts about the quantity of bardic music to find just one post of a different flavor.
Well, we're down to almost everyone saying the same thing: Not enough rounds of bardic music.
While a few are sitting on the fence, and a few others are saying it's OK, most of the voices say it's not enough. And the evidence is quite compelling.
Even using Jason' Bulmahn's example of 5-round battles, that's 20 rounds of combat a day. A 4th level 3.x bard can do that, but a Pathfinder bard will need a 30 CHA to manage this at 4th level. He would need to be 7th level to cover 4 combats that last 5 rounds each, assuming an 18 CHA.
Even allowing for Jason's suggestion that using Inspire Competence only ticks off one round when the roll is made, there is still a whole lot of room for a Pathfinder bard to drain many uses of music. For example, if the rogue is trying to pick a fairly difficult lock, he may fail many times before he succeeds. Each failure will deduct 1 round from the bard. The 3.x bard would have activated one use of music and sustained it until the lock was picked. And if the lock was trapped, his one use would sustain for both skill checks (and the search too, if he started it early enough).
Etc.
There is a counter argument that resource conservation is a key concept for most classes, and now for the first time, it's key for a bard too. They won't be able to use music in every round of every fight. They have to learn to conserve their resources like those other classes, find other ways to be effective in battle.
This is a valid argument, and one I agree with, but I also agree that it looks like too much conservation. I think there should be a middle ground.
There is another thread already underway discussing bard houserules. Check it out. It would be a perfect thread to beat up the daily usage limits/round limits, post suggestions of how to make it better, and maybe even discuss other ways to improve this tragically unloved class.
Was the rounds of bardic ability idea used in the play-testing?
I would suggest this thread could be better used to discuss the rest of the bard features without having to slog through a dozen posts about the quantity of bardic music to find just one post of a different flavor.
Yeah, am I the only one in the world who dislikes the Saga skill rules (Alpha 1) being snuck back in under the disguise of "versatile performance?" Because that's basically what it is, right? Unless I'm horribly misunderstanding it (and I hope I am), the idea is that at "X" level, you in essence suddenly get 2 more maxed out skills for free (assuming you keep up with Perform, which all bards do). And thereafter, at selected level breaks, every other Perform gives you 2 more maxed out skills. Why would a bard take ranks in anything but Perform, seeing as it's a 3-for-1 deal for magically maxed-out skills? After 3 "hits," you've got 3 Performs and 6 other skills maxed out -- all using your best stat instead of their own stats, and you still have 3 + Int skill points/level to play with. Spend all 6 on Perform, and you've eventually got 12 other skills maxed out -- half again what a rogue can do -- plus another knowledge maxed out, on top of that -- and all your knowledges are at +1/2 levels to boot. If trapfinding goes the way of Track, then bards are a lot more valuable than rogues:
Rogue: "I can find and disarm traps!"
Party: "So can the bard."
Rogue: "But I've still got 7 other skills!"
Party: "The bard's got 11 more. Plus a bunch of performs. Plus knowledge. Plus assorted bonuses."
Rogue: "I can sneak attack!"
Party: "He's got bardic music."
Rogue: "I've got some minor talents!"
Party: "He's got 3/4 spellcasting. And he can do it while buffing us. Do you have any spells?"
Rogue: (Uses maxed-out Stealth to try and escape, but the bard plays his guitar, which magically gives him maxed-out Perception using his Cha modifier, and he easily catches the rogue).
With the exception of hit points (and power points), almost all resource management in 3e uses single-digit numbers. Casters have up to 6 or 7 spells per level (a little more for sorcerers), barbarians get up to 6 rages per day, clerics can turn undead maybe 5 times per day if they have a decent-but-not-stellar Charisma, and druids can wild shape 6 times per day plus 3 elemental shapes. A 10th level PF Bard will have 22+Cha rounds of music, which he have to mess with each round, and that's a bigger book-keeping issue than 10 uses that are more "fire-and-forget" in nature.
And also with the exception of wand charges, or non-lethal damage, or your CP, SP, GP, PP, or your encumbrance, or how many arrows are in your quiver, or how many rounds left on your 1/round/level duration stuff (if you're over 9th level), or probably lots of other exceptions I'm not thinking of.
But I get it. Counting to 22 is harder than counting to 6 without a doubt. Takes more work and more math.
But look at the bright side. It's a chance for a little creative bookkeeping. You know, like we do with our gold, or XP... ;)
I'm posting this because it's being said over and over on this thread. I think we've gotten the picture, and by that I mean everyone on both sides and on the fence have all heard it. I would suggest this thread could be better used to discuss the rest of the bard features without having to slog through a dozen posts about the quantity of bardic music to find just one post of a different flavor.
Well, we're down to almost everyone saying the same thing: Not enough rounds of bardic music.
While a few are sitting on the fence, and a few others are saying it's OK, most of the voices say it's not enough. And the evidence is quite compelling.
Even using Jason' Bulmahn's example of 5-round battles, that's 20 rounds of combat a day. A 4th level 3.x bard can do that, but a Pathfinder bard will need a 30 CHA to manage this at 4th level. He would need to be 7th level to cover 4 combats that last 5 rounds each, assuming an 18 CHA.
Even allowing for Jason's suggestion that using Inspire Competence only ticks off one round when the roll is made, there is still a whole lot of room for a Pathfinder bard to drain many uses of music. For example, if the rogue is trying to pick a fairly difficult lock, he may fail many times before he succeeds. Each failure will deduct 1 round from the bard. The 3.x bard would have activated one use of music and sustained it until the lock was picked. And if the lock was trapped, his one use would sustain for both skill checks (and the search too, if he started it early enough).
Etc.
There is a counter argument that resource conservation is a key concept for most classes, and now for the first time, it's key for a bard too. They won't be able to use music in every round of every fight. They have to learn to conserve their resources like those other classes, find other ways to be effective in battle.
This is a valid argument, and one I agree with, but I also agree that it looks like too much conservation. I think there should be a middle ground.
There is another thread...
You are right DM_Blake. The point has been made. You're also right that we should focus more on the other aspects of the bard, but we have very little information on a lot of it, so there's not much to talk about but speculation. We don't have a map of performance types to replacement skills. We haven't seen full text on the other abilities, but they don't seem to have changed much. Overall the bard is very good. I guess there's not much else to talk about until next Wednesday when we'll obsess over some other aspect of the next previewed class.
I would suggest this thread could be better used to discuss the rest of the bard features without having to slog through a dozen posts about the quantity of bardic music to find just one post of a different flavor.Yeah, am I the only one in the world who dislikes the Saga skill rules (Alpha 1) being snuck back in under the disguise of "versatile performance?" Because that's basically what it is, right? Unless I'm horribly misunderstanding it (and I hope I am), the idea is that at "X" level, you in essence suddenly get 2 more maxed out skills for free (assuming you keep up with Perform, which all bards do). And thereafter, at selected level breaks, every other Perform gives you 2 more maxed out skills. Why would a bard take ranks in anything but Perform, seeing as it's a 3-for-1 deal for magically maxed-out skills? After 3 "hits," you've got 3 Performs and 6 other skills maxed out -- all using your best stat instead of their own stats, and you still have 3 + Int skill points/level to play with. Spend all 6 on Perform, and you've eventually got 12 other skills maxed out -- half again what a rogue can do -- plus another knowledge maxed out, on top of that -- and all your knowledges are at +1/2 levels to boot. If trapfinding goes the way of Track, then bards are a lot more valuable than rogues:
Rogue: "I can find and disarm traps!"
Party: "So can the bard."
Rogue: "But I've still got 7 other skills!"
Party: "The bard's got 11 more. Plus a bunch of performs. Plus knowledge. Plus assorted bonuses."
Rogue: "I can sneak attack!"
Party: "He's got bardic music."
Rogue: "I've got some minor talents!"
Party: "He's got 3/4 spellcasting. And he can do it while buffing us. Do you have any spells?"
Rogue: (Uses maxed-out Stealth to try and escape, but the bard plays his guitar, which magically gives him maxed-out Perception using his Cha modifier, and he easily catches the rogue).
The bard has successfully out skill monkeyed the rogue. I concur mostly. More details would be required to figure out exactly what's possible, but understand that not all skills might be represented. Certainly I don't expect knowledge skills to be represented nor do I expect non-class skills to be represented. I also imagine there will be some overlap. Also you've got to do one of several things however to get all these capped bonuses.
A) have a ton of performs early on without getting the benefit so that you'll get maximum benefit later; OR
B) start scaling back on the essentials so that you can put max ranks into your newly acquired perform skill, which might take a level or two once you start getting up there.
Was the rounds of bardic ability idea used in the play-testing?
Only internal after the beta ended.
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So quick and dirty... did the bard's abilities get reworked so that a bard doesn't need to have a performance type to use a specific ability?
I ask because Fascinate still had it in beta (probably an editing oversight) while none of the others had it (like alpha.) But this seems to make it sound like it's back.. though it could just be condensing the skills for bards.
I am still having trouble with the argument about too few uses of bardic music. That is not the be all and end all of the bard, imo. Don't forget that the bard also has spells to use, and can use pretty good armor and weaponry ... looking at one part of a package seems off as a method of judgement.
Going with some very simple math, compare a, say, 4th level with 16 primary stat cleric, wizard and new bard over those four combats of 5 average rounds:
Wizard = INT 16, 4 cantrips at will, 4 1st level spells, 3 2nd level spells, school power(s)
Cleric = WIS 16, 4 orisons at will, 4 1st level spells, 3 2nd level spells, domain power (s) 3 uses of Channel Energy (going with a 10 CHA here)
Bard = CHA 16, 6 cantrips at will, 4 1st level spells, 2 2nd level spells, 12 rounds of bardic music
I'm seeing the wizard, cleric and bard being able to cast only one first level spell in each battle, the wizard and cleric getting one second in three of the four battles, and the bard in two of the four. The cleric can only use channel energy in three of the four battles, and the wizard will have one or two school powers (depending on how things go in the final version) to use over those four battles. The cleric will have the bonus spells from their domain to spread out as well.
Whereas the bard will be able to use bardic music in three out of five rounds in each of these four hypothetical battles ... and without having to "drop" the effect to cast a spell.
In Beta, this same bard only had 4 uses of bardic music, and could not cast spells, use magic items like wands and scrolls, etc. And we don't yet know if there is or is not a lingering effect for inspire courage
Yes, this is a simplistic comparison, and I'm using the Beta for some of the numbers since we've not yet seen the Wizzie, but if you are fighting four separate battles in any given day at 4th level, the cleric and the wizard better be managing their spells just as carefully as the bard would be managing bardic music AND spells.
Oh, and I may have missed it, but the whole notion of fascinating a crowd didn't work in Beta at all, because you only got one being for every three levels after 1st, so our level 4 bard could only use that on two creatures, and the level 20 bard gets 6 folks ... hardly a viable mass pick-pocketing scheme.
I am still having trouble with the argument about too few uses of bardic music. That is not the be all and end all of the bard, imo. Don't forget that the bard also has spells to use, and can use pretty good armor and weaponry ... looking at one part of a package seems off as a method of judgement.
Going with some very simple math, compare a, say, 4th level with 16 primary stat cleric, wizard and new bard over those four combats of 5 average rounds:
Wizard = INT 16, 4 cantrips at will, 4 1st level spells, 3 2nd level spells, school power(s)
Cleric = WIS 16, 4 orisons at will, 4 1st level spells, 3 2nd level spells, domain power (s) 3 uses of Channel Energy (going with a 10 CHA here)
Bard = CHA 16, 6 cantrips at will, 4 1st level spells, 2 2nd level spells, 12 rounds of bardic music
I'm seeing the wizard, cleric and bard being able to cast only one first level spell in each battle, the wizard and cleric getting one second in three of the four battles, and the bard in two of the four. The cleric can only use channel energy in three of the four battles, and the wizard will have one or two school powers (depending on how things go in the final version) to use over those four battles. The cleric will have the bonus spells from their domain to spread out as well.
Whereas the bard will be able to use bardic music in three out of five rounds in each of these four hypothetical battles ... and without having to "drop" the effect to cast a spell.
In Beta, this same bard only had 4 uses of bardic music, and could not cast spells, use magic items like wands and scrolls, etc. And we don't yet know if there is or is not a lingering effect for inspire courage
Yes, this is a simplistic comparison, and I'm using the Beta for some of the numbers since we've not yet seen the Wizzie, but if you are fighting four separate battles in any given day at 4th level, the cleric and the wizard better be managing their spells just as carefully as the bard would be managing bardic music AND spells....
Cleric got channeling.
Wizard got damage spells. At lvl 5 wizard get fireballThe example Jason used was a bit strange. No one playing a 3.x level 8 Bard would spend would spend 2 or more uses uses of inspire competence.
I'd ay no one ever used inspire competence.
And in 3.x the Bard started singing and never stopped. If he needed to be silent there were feats.
One other class feature was added to the bard that allows him to really maximize his skill points. During the playtest there were a number of concerns about the Perform skill, being that it was required to gain access to specific bardic performance abilities but did little else beyond the roleplaying uses. To solve this we introduced a new bard class feature called versatile performance. This ability is gained at 2nd level and it allows the bard to substitute his Perform bonus for the bonus of two other skills, depending on the type of Perform. For example, Lem has versatile performance for both comedy and wind instruments. This allows him to substitute his bonus in Perform (comedy) for his bonus Bluff and Intimidate. It also allows him to substitute his bonus in Perform (wind instruments) for his bonus in Diplomacy and Handle Animal. With this ability he can use these skills even if he would normally have to be trained. As he gains levels, Lem can add new types of Perform to his list, allowing him to make even more substitutions (such as Perform [dance] for Acrobatics and Fly).
Versatile performance
I don't understand this. Perhaps my english is a bit of. Can you choose perform dance at level two? If not, I say.....so you have to waste skill point on Acrobatics until lvl +9 and then waste skill points on Perform [dance]?So I can't really say he is saveing any skill points, is he? So he max out Acrobatics until lvl X and after that level he max out Perform [dance].
So Consolidated perform abilitie? I'm not sure I say they have.
KaeYoss wrote "Do you get a refund for skills you later learn to emulate", I say you should or what's the bl@6y point with it then.
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One other class feature was added to the bard that allows him to really maximize his skill points. During the playtest there were a number of concerns about the Perform skill, being that it was required to gain access to specific bardic performance abilities but did little else beyond the roleplaying uses. To solve this we introduced a new bard class feature called versatile performance. This ability is gained at 2nd level and it allows the bard to substitute his Perform bonus for the bonus of two other skills, depending on the type of Perform. For example, Lem has versatile performance for both comedy and wind instruments. This allows him to substitute his bonus in Perform (comedy) for his bonus Bluff and Intimidate. It also allows him to substitute his bonus in Perform (wind instruments) for his bonus in Diplomacy and Handle Animal. With this ability he can use these skills even if he would normally have to be trained. As he gains levels, Lem can add new types of Perform to his list, allowing him to make even more substitutions (such as Perform [dance] for Acrobatics and Fly).
Versatile performance
I don't understand this. Perhaps my english is a bit of. Can you choose perform dance at level two? If not, I say.....so you have to waste skill point on Acrobatics until lvl +9 and then waste skill points on Perform [dance]?
So I can't really say he is saveing any skill points, is he? So he max out Acrobatics until lvl X and after that level he max out Perform [dance].So Consolidated perform abilitie? I'm not sure I say they have.
KaeYoss wrote "Do you get a refund for skills you later learn to emulate", I say you should or what's the bl@6y point with it then.
Err it says right there in the text that you get it at lvl 2
I am still having trouble with the argument about too few uses of bardic music. That is not the be all and end all of the bard, imo. Don't forget that the bard also has spells to use, and can use pretty good armor and weaponry ... looking at one part of a package seems off as a method of judgement.
Going with some very simple math, compare a, say, 4th level with 16 primary stat cleric, wizard and new bard over those four combats of 5 average rounds:
Wizard = INT 16, 4 cantrips at will, 4 1st level spells, 3 2nd level spells, school power(s)
Cleric = WIS 16, 4 orisons at will, 4 1st level spells, 3 2nd level spells, domain power (s) 3 uses of Channel Energy (going with a 10 CHA here)
Bard = CHA 16, 6 cantrips at will, 4 1st level spells, 2 2nd level spells, 12 rounds of bardic music
I'm seeing the wizard, cleric and bard being able to cast only one first level spell in each battle, the wizard and cleric getting one second in three of the four battles, and the bard in two of the four. The cleric can only use channel energy in three of the four battles, and the wizard will have one or two school powers (depending on how things go in the final version) to use over those four battles. The cleric will have the bonus spells from their domain to spread out as well.
Whereas the bard will be able to use bardic music in three out of five rounds in each of these four hypothetical battles ... and without having to "drop" the effect to cast a spell.
In Beta, this same bard only had 4 uses of bardic music, and could not cast spells, use magic items like wands and scrolls, etc. And we don't yet know if there is or is not a lingering effect for inspire courage
Yes, this is a simplistic comparison, and I'm using the Beta for some of the numbers since we've not yet seen the Wizzie, but if you are fighting four separate battles in any given day at 4th level, the cleric and the wizard better be managing their spells just as carefully as the bard would be managing bardic music AND spells....
Comparing spontaneous casters to prepared casters isn't a really fair assessment. The bard only have a few spells to pick from that they know while the wizard and cleric aren't really all that limited. A better comparison would be the sorcerer to the bard. Then you're looking at:
Sorcerer = CHA 16, 6 cantrips at will, 7 1st level spells, 4 second level spells, bloodline power at 1st, bloodline power at 3rd
Also a cleric that uses CHA as a dump stat isn't min/maxing their character methinks.
So quick and dirty... did the bard's abilities get reworked so that a bard doesn't need to have a performance type to use a specific ability?
I ask because Fascinate still had it in beta (probably an editing oversight) while none of the others had it (like alpha.) But this seems to make it sound like it's back.. though it could just be condensing the skills for bards.
From what it reads like all Bardic Performance abilities can be used with any Perform Skill, unlike the Beta which at each ability linked to three or four different perform skills. This is both good and bad in my mind. The Beta way presented optional paths to create stylistically different Bards. Even the skill 'tax' for two perform skills to get all the abilities seemed reasonable, especially with the free Knowledge skill. However I understand that people don't like perceived skill taxes and this would go against the whole driving force behind the skill consolidation.
I'm going to stand with Kirth Gersen on Versatile Performer. This actually seems like a fairly bad idea as a total replacement. A scaling bonus (based on Ranks in the perform skill) to those skills would have been more logical and stylistically appropriate. In short a Bard would have learned the synergy between his performance skills and one or two others. As a pure bonus that would have meant more skills with fewer actual ranks but with the same overall check. Much the way the Bardic Knowledge's 1/2 level bonus takes some of the pressure off keeping even three knowledge skills (your replacement for what the old Bardic Knowledge could, and more) at max ranks.
DM_Blake, the reason I'm not dropping rounds of performance issue is that I'm actually about as mad and outraged as when I learned that WotC had dropped Gnomes from the 4e PHB because they couldn't figure out how to make them work/fit. Which was fairly darn mad, and the final straw the broke what little tolerance I had left for 4e. It is really to bad that none of these almost drastic revisions come up for even a list minute play testing in the public venue.
The example Jason used was a bit strange. No one playing a 3.x level 8 Bard would spend would spend 2 or more uses uses of inspire competence.
I'd ay no one ever used inspire competence.
I am very positive that this is exactly the point Jason Bulmahn was trying to make.
In 3.x nobody used the Inspire Competence (OK, maybe somebody, but it was awfully rare). But now in Pathfinder a bard can feel free to use it several times a day, whenever an important reason comes up. Sure, it means a little bit fewer rounds he can use his music in combat, but that's a big difference compard to the 3.x bard where it meant a lot fewer rounds.
That was the point. I think he might even thank you for helping illustrate it for him.