Hmm, something interesting. Does a masterwork flute now give a +4 competence bonus or am I missing something
8 ranks + 3 trained + 4 cha + 4 (mwk?) = Perform (wind instruments) +19
The example Jason used was a bit strange. No one playing a 3.x level 8 Bard would spend would spend 2 or more uses uses of inspire competence.
I'd ay no one ever used inspire competence.I am very positive that this is exactly the point Jason Bulmahn was trying to make.
In 3.x nobody used the Inspire Competence (OK, maybe somebody, but it was awfully rare). But now in Pathfinder a bard can feel free to use it several times a day, whenever an important reason comes up. Sure, it means a little bit fewer rounds he can use his music in combat, but that's a big difference compard to the 3.x bard where it meant a lot fewer rounds.
That was the point. I think he might even thank you for helping illustrate it for him.
There's still the issue that Aid a free action will often be available and Inspire Competence won't be necessary in most situations.
DM_Blake, the reason I'm not dropping rounds of performance issue is that I'm actually about as mad and outraged as when I learned that WotC had dropped Gnomes from the 4e PHB because they couldn't figure out how to make them work/fit. Which was fairly darn mad, and the final straw the broke what little tolerance I had left for 4e. It is really to bad that none of these almost drastic revisions come up for even a list minute play testing in the public venue.
No need to explain. It's not like I was making any rules or anything...
In 3.x nobody used the Inspire Competence (OK, maybe somebody, but it was awfully rare).
Well, Elan did at least...
In 3.x nobody used the Inspire Competence (OK, maybe somebody, but it was awfully rare).Well, Elan did at least...
Careful now!
You're not inspiring bards to have confidence in their Inspire Competence ability...
In 3.x nobody used the Inspire Competence (OK, maybe somebody, but it was awfully rare).Well, Elan did at least...Careful now!
You're not inspiring bards to have confidence in their Inspire Competence ability...
I would say that it's an argument FOR the round based switch ;)
Err it says right there in the text that you get it at lvl 2One other class feature was added to the bard that allows him to really maximize his skill points. During the playtest there were a number of concerns about the Perform skill, being that it was required to gain access to specific bardic performance abilities but did little else beyond the roleplaying uses. To solve this we introduced a new bard class feature called versatile performance. This ability is gained at 2nd level and it allows the bard to substitute his Perform bonus for the bonus of two other skills, depending on the type of Perform. For example, Lem has versatile performance for both comedy and wind instruments. This allows him to substitute his bonus in Perform (comedy) for his bonus Bluff and Intimidate. It also allows him to substitute his bonus in Perform (wind instruments) for his bonus in Diplomacy and Handle Animal. With this ability he can use these skills even if he would normally have to be trained. As he gains levels, Lem can add new types of Perform to his list, allowing him to make even more substitutions (such as Perform [dance] for Acrobatics and Fly).
Versatile performance
I don't understand this. Perhaps my english is a bit of. Can you choose perform dance at level two? If not, I say.....so you have to waste skill point on Acrobatics until lvl +9 and then waste skill points on Perform [dance]?
So I can't really say he is saveing any skill points, is he? So he max out Acrobatics until lvl X and after that level he max out Perform [dance].So Consolidated perform abilitie? I'm not sure I say they have.
KaeYoss wrote "Do you get a refund for skills you later learn to emulate", I say you should or what's the bl@6y point with it then.
"As he gains levels, Lem can add new types of Perform to his list, allowing him to make even more substitutions (such as Perform [dance] for Acrobatics and Fly)".
Err, It's does not say he can take Perform [dance] at level two, does it?
This was the first link that popped up on Google. I'm sure there are other sites you can download it as well :)
Thaxs
Long live the fighter and hopefully the bard....we hope
There's still the issue that Aid a free action will often be available and Inspire Competence won't be necessary in most situations.The example Jason used was a bit strange. No one playing a 3.x level 8 Bard would spend would spend 2 or more uses uses of inspire competence.
I'd ay no one ever used inspire competence.I am very positive that this is exactly the point Jason Bulmahn was trying to make.
In 3.x nobody used the Inspire Competence (OK, maybe somebody, but it was awfully rare). But now in Pathfinder a bard can feel free to use it several times a day, whenever an important reason comes up. Sure, it means a little bit fewer rounds he can use his music in combat, but that's a big difference compard to the 3.x bard where it meant a lot fewer rounds.
That was the point. I think he might even thank you for helping illustrate it for him.
yes, and so we can all agree Inspire Competence suck ;-)
I would suggest this thread could be better used to discuss the rest of the bard features without having to slog through a dozen posts about the quantity of bardic music to find just one post of a different flavor.Yeah, am I the only one in the world who dislikes the Saga skill rules (Alpha 1) being snuck back in under the disguise of "versatile performance?" Because that's basically what it is, right? Unless I'm horribly misunderstanding it (and I hope I am), the idea is that at "X" level, you in essence suddenly get 2 more maxed out skills for free (assuming you keep up with Perform, which all bards do). And thereafter, at selected level breaks, every other Perform gives you 2 more maxed out skills. Why would a bard take ranks in anything but Perform, seeing as it's a 3-for-1 deal for magically maxed-out skills? After 3 "hits," you've got 3 Performs and 6 other skills maxed out -- all using your best stat instead of their own stats, and you still have 3 + Int skill points/level to play with. Spend all 6 on Perform, and you've eventually got 12 other skills maxed out -- half again what a rogue can do -- plus another knowledge maxed out, on top of that -- and all your knowledges are at +1/2 levels to boot. If trapfinding goes the way of Track, then bards are a lot more valuable than rogues:
Rogue: "I can find and disarm traps!"
Party: "So can the bard."
Rogue: "But I've still got 7 other skills!"
Party: "The bard's got 11 more. Plus a bunch of performs. Plus knowledge. Plus assorted bonuses."
Rogue: "I can sneak attack!"
Party: "He's got bardic music."
Rogue: "I've got some minor talents!"
Party: "He's got 3/4 spellcasting. And he can do it while buffing us. Do you have any spells?"
Rogue: (Uses maxed-out Stealth to try and escape, but the bard plays his guitar, which magically gives him maxed-out Perception using his Cha modifier, and he easily catches the rogue).
let's take this from another angle
Bard: "I can find and disarm traps!"
Party: "the rogue does it better
Bard : "But I've still got lots of skills"
Party: "The rogue got more skill points and his skills are more usefull...and he is more usefull.
Bard: I can inspire courage
Party: "We got one fighter, He will like it. We got a healer and a wizard they don't care. And the rogue can sneak attack and and does lots of damage and he can sneak attack undeads, plant creatures and constructs. Can you charm those creatures?"
Bard: "I got bardic music."
Party: "Our Rogue got Fast Stealth, bleeding attack, sneak attack, and...Slow Reactions. Slow Reactions is really great! He use invisibility, sneaks up to the giant and attacks. Then the fighter can charge with no AoO. Save us many healing spells and buff spells because the giant is now dead after only two rounds.
Bard: "I got 3/4 spellcasting. Do you have any spells?"
Party: LOL. We got two usefull spell casters with GREAT spells. A cleric and a wizard. Sorry, let us put it this way: their spells are useful ALL the time, even vs. undead etc. And the rogue got UMD and skill fovus UMD and a lot of wands, One is a wand of haste and he can use it when he is invisible.
Bard: I got social skills:
Party: Our rogue got skills too. And when he feint in battle he does damage.
Bard: I can charm monster.
Party: Can you charm a vampire, a golem or any plant creatures? How about dragons?
Bard: But it's a lvl 3 spell for me
Party: We know. Our wizard gets it as a lvl 4 spell and he's int is high so the DC is better.
Bard: I got knowledge skills.
Party: So does our rogue, cleric, fighter and Wizard.
Bard: I suck
Party: Not always, but too often.
Bard: "I can find and disarm traps!"
Party: "the rogue does it better"
I'd like for that to be true. But if this crazy versatile skill thing works the way it's described, the rogue can't do it better. Bard substitutes Perform (disco hits of the '70s) for Perception and Disable Device and gets to use his Cha modifier to find and remove; burns a couple rounds of inspire competence and he can't fail. The rogue is stuck with his (usually lousy) Wis modifier to locate traps, and some other ability modifier to remove. Net result: rogue can't compete.
I'd like for that to be true. But if this crazy versatile skill thing works the way it's described, the rogue can't do it better. Bard substitutes Perform (disco hits of the '70s) for Disable Device and gets to use his Cha modifier to find and remove; burns a couple rounds of inspire competence and he can't fail. The rogue is stuck with his (usually lousy) Wis modifier to locate traps, and some other ability modifier to remove. Net result: rogue can't compete.Bard: "I can find and disarm traps!"
Party: "the rogue does it better"
Asume all you want. you don't know how this works. You don't even know if bards have trapfinding. And if perception and disable device works like survival the bard is NOT AS GOOD. And DD will probably only be a class skill to rogues... but we don't know that...do we? ;-)
Gotcha....rogue got sneak attack ;-)
I'd like for that to be true. But if this crazy versatile skill thing works the way it's described, the rogue can't do it better. Bard substitutes Perform (disco hits of the '70s) for Disable Device and gets to use his Cha modifier to find and remove; burns a couple rounds of inspire competence and he can't fail. The rogue is stuck with his (usually lousy) Wis modifier to locate traps, and some other ability modifier to remove. Net result: rogue can't compete.Bard: "I can find and disarm traps!"
Party: "the rogue does it better"
Sure you got rules to back that up?
As far as we know when you use the versatile performance it goes to specific skills. Dance = Fly and Acrobatics for example. You can't just take Dance and say it fills in for spellcraft and linguistics for example.
Before I can say too much on the Bard I want to see the spell progression since they have changed it. Over all I think the current changes work well and bring the bard back in the range of being capable of adventuring in a 4 person party, without being mandatory in said party. You could have a party with a Bard, Cleric, Rogue, Wizard and do fine, or Fighter, Bard, Rogue, Wizard, or Fighter, Cleric, Bard, Wizard, possibly even Fighter, Cleric, Rogue, Bard.
Which is what the bard is supposed to be able to do. Is he going to completely cover whichever of the spots he is filling? No but he is useful in that area, and brings other things with him that help compensate for what you lose off of the 'original' slot filler.
But we don't know that...do we? ;-) Gotcha
No, we don't know. All we can do is estimate based on what we've been told... and based on the kinds of wacky stuff Jason has thrown out there in the past. In the Alpha 1, he seemed really keen on the (much-maligned) Saga skills rules; this "versatile" mechanic, as described, seems like a very close stand-in for those skills rules.
Re: Trapfinding, If rogues get +1/2 levels to Disable Device, all the trap DCs will have to be rescaled, which would more or less prevent use of 99% of 3.5e modules "as-written" (because ALL of the traps would be too easy), which would defy the "backwards-compatible" mandate of the Pathfinder project.
In short, we don't know exactly what the rules will look like, but we can make educated guesses, not just guess blindly.
As far as we know when you use the versatile performance it goes to specific skills. Dance = Fly and Acrobatics for example. You can't just take Dance and say it fills in for spellcraft and linguistics for example.
Correct. But how many separate skills are there, vs. how many variants of Perform? If every Perform variant counts for 2 other skills, then ALL skills other than Perform will be covered, with some overlap, and we'll still have a whole bunch of perform types left over... And THAT's the root of my issues here. If we need to bribe people to take more Perform variants, because they're viewed as a "skills tax" but are mechanically useless, then the obvious solution is to consolidate Perform, not offer other skills as a mail-in rebate.
Director of Game Design
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Alright.. let me clear up a thing or two here... just to stop some of the pointless arguing...
1. Versatile Performance: The skills linked to the specific Perform types is set. You do not get to pick the skills. You do get to pick the Perform types that you can use in this way as you gain levels.
2. Looking at the skill use question and inspire competence, the rules are still relatively silent on this. I am going to say that you can get the bonus as long as you hear the bardic music at some point and time during the skill use. I will make sure this ends up in the FAQ.
That is all for now...
I know some folks are still a bit hot under the collar about the rounds/day mechanic. I think the system is still a good one that allows us to add more powerful abilities to the class and gives a lot of versatility in how it is used, but I can also see how it comes out to less uses per day in the mid range. That said, I would hope that folks give this new bard a try before taking a black marker to their books. It really is quite smooth and easy to use.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
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As far as we know when you use the versatile performance it goes to specific skills. Dance = Fly and Acrobatics for example. You can't just take Dance and say it fills in for spellcraft and linguistics for example.Correct. But how many separate skills are there, vs. how many variants of Perform? If every Perform variant counts for 2 other skills, then ALL skills other than Perform will be covered, with some overlap, and we'll still have a whole bunch of perform types left over...
And THAT's the root of my issues here. If we need to bribe people to take more Perform variants, because they're viewed as a "skills tax" but are mechanically useless, then the obvious solution is to consolidate Perform, not offer other skills as a mail-in rebate.
34 vs 9. Even with no duplication that's just over half the skills. And Jason said that most of them would double for one of the influencing skills (mostly Bluff and Diplomacy I'd imagine. Which is more likely to improve your reactions: Frank Sinatra talking to you, or Frank Sintara singing to you?) so there's a lot of duplication.
Kirth,
I know you don't like this, but you are blowing it out of proportion. You constantly ignore the fact that each perform counts for two named skills not any two skills and constantly suggest really way out combinations to make your point and that weakens your argument. Let's be honest: none of the perform skills are going to affect UMD or Appraise or Perception. They'll be one influencer and one other skill with Dance and possibly Act being the exceptions.
The specific mechanic is unimportant to me, so I'm picking weird skills to modify because I don't really care which ones they are. If we just gave the bard 16 skill points a level, I'd even be happier with that, than with this "versatile" mechanic. Why? Because what I REALLY don't like, and what no one has even so much as attempted to answer, is this:
If it's so important that bards get multiple types of performances, why not just build that right into the Perform skill, instead of using all these contrived bribery/punishment class features (linking specific effects to them in the Beta, offering skill bonuses in the preview)? Especially in view of all the other skill consolidation in Pathfinder?
I've been unhappy with that logic since the Beta, and I still can't undertsand it. If anyone can answer that, I'll happily reconsider my whole stance.
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The specific mechanic is unimportant. What I don't like, and what NO ONE has even attempted to answer, is this:
If it's so important that bards get multiple types of performances, why not just build that right into the Perform skill, instead of using all these contrived bribery/punishment class features (linking specific effects to them in the Beta, offering skill bonuses in the preview)? Especially in view of all the other skill consolidation in Pathfinder?
If anyone can answer that, I'll happily reconsider my whole stance.
If that's your point, why do you keep muddying the waters by going on about all the b%!%@#~s with Perform (Sock puppet)?
That's one that I agree would be much easier. One perform skill makes more sense to me, too. As for the reason, well, some parts of D&D are highly abstract (armour effects) and some try harder for realism (armour prices).
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Director of Game Design
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The specific mechanic is unimportant to me, so I'm picking weird skills to modify because I don't really care which ones they are. What I don't like, and what NO ONE has even attempted to answer, is this:
If it's so important that bards get multiple types of performances, why not just build that right into the Perform skill, instead of using all these contrived bribery/punishment class features (linking specific effects to them in the Beta, offering skill bonuses in the preview)? Especially in view of all the other skill consolidation in Pathfinder?
If anyone can answer that, I'll happily reconsider my whole stance.
Because that is not the way the Perform skill works. Yes, it could have been changed, but keeping them separate allows me to base abilities (including those in the future) off different types. If I am rewarding bards for being multitalented, it is only because I think that is a fun aspect of the game. I could boil it down to just one skill, but that is kind of bland and boring. Its the same reason there is more than one Profession or more than one Craft.
I don't really expect you to agree.. Consolidating Spot and Listen does not really take anything away from the role playing aspect of the game. Consolidating all the Perform types does.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
That's all I needed. Thanks, Jason! Like you said, I may not agree, but at least I understand where you're coming from now, which matters more to me.
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I disagree, there are 10 knowledge sub-skills in beta. My bard at level 6 has a +12 bardic know (everything) essentially. +6 from levels +4 from int and +2 from synergy from knowledge: history.
I would have to spend 50 skill points in the current system to get something I got for 5 skill points (the 5 ranks for synergy) in the old system. Thats a HUGE difference.
The fact that you could claim bardic knowledge was effectively Knowledge (everything) demostrates how badly the 3.5 system needed changing.
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That would be good to know. Sadly, my guess is no.
Can a high-level bard inspire heroics as a swift action, inspire greatness as a move action, and inspire courage as a standard action, all in the same round? And does that only count as one round of bardic music?
I'd say sure, why not? the beauty of it is that they are all maintained in the consecutive rounds... (one can take three free actions each round, right? ;) )
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I can also see how it comes out to less uses per day in the mid range. That said, I would hope that folks give this new bard a try before taking a black marker to their books. It really is quite smooth and easy to use.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
Jason, I think most people will have forgotten about this by the time they're bard is high level... at that point they'll have things like 4th, 5th and 6th level spells to play with as well. Between a bard's spells, bardic music, feats, skill uses and magical items, although bardic music is good... well... I think they have a lot of toys to play with.
High level bard can inspire courage, greatness and competence in the first round, maintain all these as free actions in the other rounds WHILE casting spells/attacking, AND moving.
Nothing to complain about here. :)
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I don't really expect you to agree.. Consolidating Spot and Listen does not really take anything away from the role playing aspect of the game. Consolidating all the Perform types does.Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
Hey Jason, please tell me you added an extra line in the skill section of the character sheet for performance, every bard I've ever had has had two or more performace skills, but no character I've ever had has had more than one profession. yet on the beta character sheet there were three profession slots and only one perform slot. Not a terribly horribly hard thing to fix myself, but cmon, was profession really that popular that it needed so many slots when perform only got one?
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Also, I should note that my Second Darkness bard actually does roleplay in out-of-combat situations. It's only when the initiative rolls start that he turns into a boom box.There is an aweful lot for bards to do in SD, isn't there? :) I'm really enjoying that AP with all of the different tactical and roleplaying scenarios presented (favourite so far is the tower rolling down the hill with us in it).
I figure that as long as the bard is doing something positive every round and can muster a better diplomacy check than the CHA dump statters, they're doing just fine. I'd rather have the big box of tools to work with than just a sledgehammer (or mix tape in the case of the bard). :)
My fighter felt like he stepped into a tumble dryer mid-cycle... I kept thinking about that bad 90's movie "White Men Can't Jump" (i.e. in PRPG, "Fighters Can't Jump"; is there a feat that lets you use STR instead of Dex for Acrobatics checks??? :P Does PRPG final has "Athletics" -- swim, climb and jump combined? :P)
Yes, I'll second Xuttah's motion here: bards completely rule in the Second Darkness AP (and I suspect that PRPG-final bards will just rule everywhere...)
The fact that you could claim bardic knowledge was effectively Knowledge (everything) demostrates how badly the 3.5 system needed changing.
The old was Knowledge (something). Or (anything). Or (everything). Or (whatever). The mechanic didn't make sense and needed to be shot. The new bardic knowledge represents bardic knowledge a lot better.
Yes....... bard's inspiring stacking with bless or prayer is beautiful! :)
Is that really clear? I thought he might have been talking about the Heroism spell.
While a few are sitting on the fence, and a few others are saying it's OK, most of the voices say it's not enough. And the evidence is quite compelling.
I have been quiet about it because I don't really have a problem with it. I think the system looks fine for right now and that the evidence presented against it is lacking.
Yes....... bard's inspiring stacking with bless or prayer is beautiful! :)Is that really clear? I thought he might have been talking about the Heroism spell.
Or Good Hope.
While a few are sitting on the fence, and a few others are saying it's OK, most of the voices say it's not enough. And the evidence is quite compelling.I have been quiet about it because I don't really have a problem with it. I think the system looks fine for right now and that the evidence presented against it is lacking.
I think's it's great too.
Just because a few people are vocal and post ALOT on this topic doesn't make that representative...I mean, a thousand-odd people have pre-ordered, yet a fraction of that have even posted ANY comment.
And I think if you actually went thru this thread and counted the # of posters happy and not happy, there will be ALOT more happy people, they just tend to post once and not keep re-posting - if you're happy, what more is there to say? While the same set of "not happy" people seem intent on debating the matter from every angle and demonstrating how their position is right. Those one-post "I like it" responces are easy to look over, while the "this sucks" crew keep drilling in their perspective.
Good Job, Jason!
And I think if you actually went thru this thread and counted the # of posters happy and not happy
I'm not sure one can do that, since it's presented as an "all or nothing." I mean, more than one change has been made. Can people be happy with, say, 3 of the changes, and unhappy about one, and maybe ambivalent about another?
Oh, what the hay, I like it. Maybe I'll try Bard next...
Hey Jason, please tell me you added an extra line in the skill section of the character sheet for performance, every bard I've ever had has had two or more performace skills, but no character I've ever had has had more than one profession. yet on the beta character sheet there were three profession slots and only one perform slot. Not a terribly horribly hard thing to fix myself, but cmon, was profession really that popular that it needed so many slots when perform only got one?
good point.
Before I can say too much on the Bard I want to see the spell progression since they have changed it.
I think they didn't change it (from the beta). They probably refereed to 3.5 vs. final version, not Beta vs. final version.
Yes....... bard's inspiring stacking with bless or prayer is beautiful! :)Is that really clear? I thought he might have been talking about the Heroism spell.
read again. It does.
The old was Knowledge (something). Or (anything). Or (everything). Or (whatever). The mechanic didn't make sense and needed to be shot. The new bardic knowledge represents bardic knowledge a lot better.
The fact that you could claim bardic knowledge was effectively Knowledge (everything) demostrates how badly the 3.5 system needed changing.
agree.
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RPG Superstar 2013 Top 4, RPG Superstar 2011 Top 16
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agree.The old was Knowledge (something). Or (anything). Or (everything). Or (whatever). The mechanic didn't make sense and needed to be shot. The new bardic knowledge represents bardic knowledge a lot better.
The fact that you could claim bardic knowledge was effectively Knowledge (everything) demostrates how badly the 3.5 system needed changing.
The old bardic knowledge wasn't that vague... Local notable people, legendary items, or noteworthy places.
Granted being a seperate mechanic I did always have to look it up... the new one if far easier.
--Vrock'em Sock'em Robots!
Alright.. let me clear up a thing or two here... just to stop some of the pointless arguing...
1. Versatile Performance: The skills linked to the specific Perform types is set. You do not get to pick the skills. You do get to pick the Perform types that you can use in this way as you gain levels.
2. Looking at the skill use question and inspire competence, the rules are still relatively silent on this. I am going to say that you can get the bonus as long as you hear the bardic music at some point and time during the skill use. I will make sure this ends up in the FAQ.
That is all for now...
I know some folks are still a bit hot under the collar about the rounds/day mechanic. I think the system is still a good one that allows us to add more powerful abilities to the class and gives a lot of versatility in how it is used, but I can also see how it comes out to less uses per day in the mid range. That said, I would hope that folks give this new bard a try before taking a black marker to their books. It really is quite smooth and easy to use.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
Honestly,
It makes sense to me. I take Inspire Competence to be something that once you hear it is good for your next check (be it attack, skill check, etc).So, if the bard is actively singing/dancing/oratorying/chanting/etc, then as soon as you use your bonus, you get another (you heard it again). So you can get multiple bonus's in the same round of combat. For time taking checks, like crafting for the day, the Bard uses a round of inspire competence and inspires the crafter for the check.
Honestly,
It makes sense to me. I take Inspire Competence to be something that once you hear it is good for your next check (be it attack, skill check, etc).So, if the bard is actively singing/dancing/oratorying/chanting/etc, then as soon as you use your bonus, you get another (you heard it again). So you can get multiple bonus's in the same round of combat. For time taking checks, like crafting for the day, the Bard uses a round of inspire competence and inspires the crafter for the check.
Most folks on this thread have already made up their mind and are far to deep into rant mode to really think about this any more. My feeling on this is that Bardic performances will be a bit tight but not horrible. In particular with Jason's suggestion that hearing the bardic performance "inspire competence" at any time during the skill use is enough. That said, It's something I really want to read the rules on and play out before I make any judgement.
The way I look at it is that you might lose some rounds of Inspire Courage but you gain quite a few actions since you don't have to worry about maintaining it or resetting it every 5 rounds. It's sort of like quicken for bardic performance, so in the first round of combat Lem can Inspire AND cast Haste... that's pretty b~@~%in' IMO. In a way it's like a win for the bard (Yeah I get to do more stuff!) and a possible lose for the party (Boo fewer rounds of inspire!). Personally, I'm in favor of making it a bit more fun for the bard player and screw the rest of the party.
Also, keep in mind that James likes bards a LOT. I just don't see him nerfing the bard as horribly as has been suggested on this thread.
The way I look at it is that you might lose some rounds of Inspire Courage but you gain quite a few actions since you don't have to worry about maintaining it or resetting it every 5 rounds.
You didn't have to worry about maintaining it in 3.5 or the PF beta, so there are no actions to be gained from not having to worry about it now.
It's sort of like quicken for bardic performance, so in the first round of combat Lem can Inspire AND cast Haste... that's pretty b@&!!in' IMO.
This could already be done in 3.5 and the PF beta, so it's not that big a deal. It saves a few resources, but costs a lot more time (the previous way could be gotten at level 3 with your first feat).
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I would have actually preferred the exact opposite of versatile performance: the bard selects X non-perform skills and can use them to perform. For example, a bard could choose to perform using Bluff instead of Perform (acting), Diplomacy instead of Perform (oratory), or Acrobatics instead of Perform (dance). That way, bards are gradually learning to turn any task into a performance instead of arbitrarily getting maxed-out non-performance skills.
This was the first thing that came to my mind when I read versatile performer too.
For the record I like everything else about the bard preview.
Alright.. let me clear up a thing or two here... just to stop some of the pointless arguing...
1. Versatile Performance: The skills linked to the specific Perform types is set. You do not get to pick the skills. You do get to pick the Perform types that you can use in this way as you gain levels.
2. Looking at the skill use question and inspire competence, the rules are still relatively silent on this. I am going to say that you can get the bonus as long as you hear the bardic music at some point and time during the skill use. I will make sure this ends up in the FAQ.
That is all for now...
I know some folks are still a bit hot under the collar about the rounds/day mechanic. I think the system is still a good one that allows us to add more powerful abilities to the class and gives a lot of versatility in how it is used, but I can also see how it comes out to less uses per day in the mid range. That said, I would hope that folks give this new bard a try before taking a black marker to their books. It really is quite smooth and easy to use.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo PublishingHonestly,
It makes sense to me. I take Inspire Competence to be something that once you hear it is good for your next check (be it attack, skill check, etc).So, if the bard is actively singing/dancing/oratorying/chanting/etc, then as soon as you use your bonus, you get another (you heard it again). So you can get multiple bonus's in the same round of combat. For time taking checks, like crafting for the day, the Bard uses a round of inspire competence and inspires the crafter for the check.
What makes sense to you? I think you got this wrong.
- no, Inspire Competence does not give you a bonus on attack.
- no, Jason was not taking about inspire competence when he explain: Time taking check = one check? He was taking about Inspire Competence
- no, Inspire Courage does not stack.
- no, Jason didn't say the Bard can use one round of Inspire Courage and then the bonus is good for your next check, even if that check is 5 rounds later. So it's still: Time taking check = one check = Inspire Competence
- no, you can't accumulate Inspire Courage. if you heard Inspire Courage for 3 rounds you can't attack for 3 rounds with a bonus beacause you have saved your bonus for later.
- "Time taking check = one check" does not mean you can save a bonus for later. It mean the bard give you the bonus when you do it but it only require one check. "as long as you hear the bardic music at some point and time during the skill use" So hear is not heard it some time earlier.
....or did I read you wrong?
And again I like the rounds per day mechanic I'm just not so hot on the songs.
Just gotta say this. The Bard can be great is certain campaign that don't focus on fights, but this game is a lot about fights.
When you play you want to be able to do damage. That's why the cleric sucked at 1:st ed.
In this game all classes can do damage except the bard (and the monk has it's problems). Paladin has smite, rogues got sneak atack, Rangers got FE, wizards got fireball, MM, etc. Clerics got holy smite, Druids got flame strike and their animal, fighers have their feats and weapon training, Barbarians their range. etc.
I when I say damage I mean massive damage, serious damage, call it what you will. ....and I'm not taking about sound burst.
The bard spell list is not focused on damage. And it shouldn't. But he should be able to to more than just boost his friends whith a song.
And yes he has a loot of cool skills, but what's his thing? Songs? Well I had hoped for more songs and some Spell like abilities or something.
So I guess I'm done with this thread now. I'll may try the bard in our next campaign but I fear houserules will be needed.
What makes sense to you? I think you got this wrong.
Quite possible, I came in on the end of the beta test, and I've never had a bard in my game, so I'm rusty on this. But I'll answer below.
* no, Inspire Competence does not give you a bonus on attack.
I never said it did, I said it could give you a bonus in combat (perception, etc).
* no, Jason was not taking about inspire competence when he explain: Time taking check = one check? He was taking about Inspire Competence
Uhh, I have no idea what you are talking about with this line. He wasn't talking about inspire competence (lower case), he was talking about Inspire Competence (upper case). What is the difference? Is there two mechanics and I'm missing something?
* no, Inspire Courage does not stack.
I didn't mean to imply it did, I don't think I ever mentioned Inspire Courage.
* no, Jason didn't say the Bard can use one round of Inspire Courage and then the bonus is good for your next check, even if that check is 5 rounds later. So it's still: Time taking check = one check = Inspire Competence
Again, no idea where Inspire Courage comes from, I never said anything about it. I'm really getting confused now.
* no, you can't accumulate Inspire Courage. if you heard Inspire Courage for 3 rounds you can't attack for 3 rounds with a bonus beacause you have saved your bonus for later.
Now, I know I never said that, no matter what. What I said was, hearing Inspire Competence gave you a bonus on your next check (not your next N checks). If you use that bonus, and the inspire is still being done by the bard, you immediately gain another bonus. I was also talking about Inspire Competence, not Courage.
* "Time taking check = one check" does not mean you can save a bonus for later. It mean the bard give you the bonus when you do it but it only require one check. "as long as you hear the bardic music at some point and time during the skill use" So hear is not heard it some time earlier.
....or did I read you wrong?
And again I like the rounds per day mechanic I'm just not so hot on the songs.
Yes, you read me wrong. Here, let me give an example, as I understand the mechanic.
Lem and 3 friends, A rogue, a Wizard, and a Fighter are in the dungeon. They enter a new chamber, and all four feel weird, so Lem begins to Inspire Competence for his 3 friends.
Round 1:
- Lem starts Inspire Competence.
Rogue checks for Traps (Uses the bonus from Lem on Perception), thinks he spots one, and makes a Disable Device check to determine what type of trap it is (magical in this case, and gets the bonus from Lem's inspire on this check as well, since Lem is maintaining Inspire).
- Wizard casts Detect Magic and looks (Uses the bonus from Lem on Perception)
- Fighter starts trying to bar the door they came in through (to keep the skeletons they were running from from getting in). He starts a complex Craft(Carpentry) check to jam the door (using Lem's Bonus).
Round 2:
- Lem maintains Inspire, and casts a Cure Moderate on the Fighter while he works on the door.
- Rogue found a trap last round, starts using disarm to disarm the trap (using Lem's bonus).
- Wizard continues to concentrate to figure out what the spells are on the room (again using Lem's bonus).
Round 3:
- Lem realizes all his friends are involved in complex jobs, and that he's mostly being ignored by them. He stops inspiring, and casts Cure Moderate on the wizard next, while he continues to concentrate on figuring out the spells in the room.
2 rounds later, the 3 make their skill checks for their complex jobs. The Wizard makes a Spellcraft check to see what spell is on the room (turns out to be a trapped fireball spell), and he get's the Inspire bonus on his skill check, since he started the complex skill check while Inspired. The Fighter makes his Craft check to jam the door to keep the Skeletons out, and he was Inspired while doing it, so the Inspired state lasts through his check for that one job (if he starts a seperate craft check to fix his wooden shield, he would need to be Inspired again). The Rogue makes his disarm check (with Lem's bonus) and successfully disarms the trap that sets off the fireball spell the wizard found. If he notices a second trap, and wants the Inspire bonus again, he'll need Lem to re-inspire him while he's working on it.
To me, Inspire is a state of mind. You're Inspired for whatever task you are performing when the Bard Inspires you. If he continues to inspire, and you finish your current task, he is now inspiring you for your next task. If you don't have a task to perform, the inspiration just makes you feel good, you don't have any focus to apply it to though.