|
We can't help it that he doesn't realize you can actually do stuff while you sing, but you can and you always could. You can sing and fight all day long. I think this was more a misunderstanding of the class. Additionally even in the situation where you were singing and didn't think you could fight you could still move around to provide flanks and position yourself to drop out of singing in order to provide a critical heal. The class still had tactical decisions to make.I have a player running a bard in Second Darkness right now, and it gets to where I just skip over him in the initiative every round because it's ALL HE DOES.
DM: Okay, all the enemies have attacked, you're doing X, you're doing Y ... oh, and [bard], I assume you're still singing?
Bard: Yeah [without looking up, as he continues to text his girlfriend throughout the combat]
Please, make him put some thought into what he's doing.
(And, yes, I know he could have taken other actions while maintaining his song. The problem is, he doesn't. Now, maybe, if he runs out of Perform rounds, he'll have to do something.)
It's not that he doesn't realize he can do other things. It's that he chooses not to. I don't think he has ever rolled an attack, and he's almost 5th level now. Now, I don't think it's my place to take him aside and tell him he's playing his character wrong; however, I do applaud a mechanic that will make him consider what else he can do if he's not singing.
I guess I just don't care for an ability that works out to basically being "always on."
I would penalize him for 0 role-playing...he's performing the role of a cohort, not a PC
So... let me get this straight here...
3.5 8th level Bard (with Extra Music) in one day does the following:
1 Use Fascinating the guard and using Suggestion to sneak past him (taking 2 rounds).
1 Use of Countersong to cancel a sonic spell (taking 1 round).
3 Uses of Inspire Competence to grant a bonus to the group's cleric use the Heal skill to stabilize, the Wizard to make a knowledge check, and the rogue to disarm a trap (taking a total of 5 rounds)
4 Uses of Inspire Courage during a host of combats (lasting about 5 rounds each, for a total of 20 rounds)Using the Pathfinder Rules, the sample Bard (with Extra Performance) could do the exact same thing.
This does not seem like an unreasonable list of uses to me and it really feels about right for the amount of versatility this class should give. The big payoff comes in the fact that the Pathfinder Bard can start his songs as a move action at this level and maintain them as a free, allowing him to take other actions (not that you can't with some of these abilities in 3.5, but it is less restrictive now). At low levels this ability is even more versatile than before.
I think that you will find that the number of rounds per day is really not nearly as restrictive as it might appear.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
It's number 4 that gets you. I think that there are a lot of people that have the experience that having 40 rounds in a day of combat isn't out of the realm of possibility.
We had a light night last night and it lasted 20 rounds of combat, 40 is more typical in a day. If combats only lasted 5 rounds for us then that would be great, but they don't where I play and that's the problem.
3. The spells that got nerfed a bit here needed it.. badly.I'd just like to see more partials. For example if you save you're still laughing for one round, but otherwise you get a save every round. My problem with a lot of save or suck spells is that you either end up removing someone from combat completely or they're completely ineffective. I'd like to see a bit of constraining on both fronts.
Now this I agree with.
An evoker, for instance, knows that when he drops a fireball on his foes, most of them will take some damage. If the enemies make their saves, the spell will be largely ineffective, but at least something will happen.
But the caster who drops a Hideous Laughter or a Glitterdust knows that he will either have a huge impact on the fight, or the spell will do absolutely nothing at all.
Just his last weekend my level 4 wizard killed a CR 8 cave troll with Hideous Laughter. We were fighting that solo, us against him, and the DM blew the save. It took us 3 rounds to kill it as it rolled on the ground laughing, but since it was dishing out around 15-20 HP per attack with 2 attacks, that fight would have been ugly if it landed 5 or 6 of those hits on us while we fought it. Heck, our barbarian was down to single digit HP before I landed this spell.
One spell changed a possible TPK into a really easy fight. Too easy.
That spell needs nerfing.
But, on the other hand, the DM rolled the save behind his DM screen. He could have said the troll made his save no matter what he rolled. He could have kept the troll on its feet just to keep the fight challenging. I have known many DMs who do that very thing. Over the decades, I would say most DMs I've gamed with have taught me never to use SOS/SOD spells against single-enemy encounters or especially against BBEGs because those DMs won't allow the drama of a close fight to be sabotaged by a single saving throw - these enemies of these DMs make every save against SOS/SOD spells.
So as a player with a spell like Hideous Laughter prepared, you're not only at the mercy of the d20 saving throw, you're also at the mercy of the DM's plans for the drama of the battle - either one could completely rob you of any benefit from preparing/casting this spell.
Which brings me back to the idea that most of these spells should have some effect on a save. Disintegrate is a good example. Save or Die, but if you save, it still hurts.
Maybe Hideous Laughter could impose a Shaken condition for a few rounds on a save as the victim chuckles uncontrollably and tries to contain his laughter - but he still fights on.
At least then we'd know that preparing this spell wouldn't most likely result in a completely wasted spell slot.
I don't have a problem with the limitation. As I stated before I think rounds/day versus uses per day is alright. What I'm upset about is that it doesn't scale quickly enough. I thought CHA + 2 additional uses a level instead of a flat 2 uses would have been a better formaula.Hmmm. That would give Lem 56 uses of bardic music per day. At 8th level. That's quite a lot. And Lem has an awfully low CHA for an 8th level bard. He should be at least 2-4 points higher, IMO, which would give him 8-16 more uses by your formula. 72 rounds of bardic music per day is a whole heckuva lot.
And yet still so much less than the underpowered mechanic had before.
My additional problem is that the uses aren't equivalent. A single round of +1 to hit and +1 damage isn't nearly as useful as a +2 to a difficult skill check for a single round. Also a single round of +4 to hit and +4 damage isn't as useful as 'I kill you'.And Bless isn't as useful as Cure Light Wounds, and a level 1 magic maissile does far less damage than a level 1 Enlarge Person. And Haste isn't as useful as Wish.
The first four are spells that can be roughly equally useful, depending on situation. What he's saying is, inspire courage is now a great deal less useful in the situation in which it would be used than inspire competence is in the situation in which it would be used. As for wish and haste, those are different level spells at different ends of the game.
As for your idea of the 16-hour long fiddling contest. That's something that should be handled by roleplay. As a GM, I'd say, "You're now exhausted for playing for that many hours straight" or "The NPCs around town are throwing rotten fruit at you because you won't shut up."Except there is no rule for bardic musing causing exhaustion. Are we discussing core mechanics or houserules?
I'm sorry, but that's some of the dumbest rules lawyering I've ever heard. I don't think the core book should be made around people who would make that argument. But hey, the rulebook doesn't say that fire melts ice, does it? Or that rain falls down instead of up? I guess if it's not in the book it's a houserule.
Admittedly there really hasn't been a lot of abusing of that power via uses. But again, I'm not against rounds per day. I'm against such a small number of rounds per day at mid to high levels.Don'torget that unlike all the other primary casters, except maybe for druids, bards offer a wide variety of other features. They are not a one-trick pony that can only do their main class feature or nothing. Their combat is lacking, but as good as any primary caster and better than most. Their skill selection is better than anyone but rogues. And best of all, they have TWO primary abilities. Music AND spells. Nobody else gets that.
So yeah, maybe they can't play their bardic music every round of combat throughout the day. But those other rounds they will be spellcasting and/or meleeing with enough efficiency to make all the primary spellcasters, all of them, wish they could be as useful as bards in as many rounds/day as bards can be useful.
Oh yeah, totally. That's happened before. I'm sure the wizard with overland flight and invisibility wishes he could be as awesome as the bard for as many rounds per day. I know druids are certainly jealous of the bard's melee prowess.
One of the great things I used to play now with Bards I can no longer do and that makes me a sad bard panda.
One of the things that used to be common with bards is that I would have one setup where you have a two- or three- person team setup where one person was the bard and they would be fascinating a group of people while the other two were going around picking pockets. Now it seems that with such a limited number of rounds of fascinate (effectively) that you wouldn't be able to pick more than one or two pockets in that time (since they're being all sneaky and such and not moving their full 30' a round).
I'll miss those days.
More hyperbole...
What, are these marks you're fleecing each on their own rooftop balcony?
No, they're packed together in a town square, listening to fascinating music. (Don't believe me? Take a stroll through Times Square when some guy whips out a guitar and see how quickly a crowd forms, shoulder to shoulder - assuming the guy is any good). The bard starts his fascination when his buddies are in place, and now, in Lem's case, those buddies get 28 rounds to pick 56 pockets since they don't have to do more than a 5' free move each round.
That's a whole lot more than "one or two pockets in that time".
Jason -- could you tell us if bardic music lingers at all once the bard stops performing? I can see it both being abusable (the perform one round issue some folks mentioned earlier) but also useful if the bard in question is affected by a silence, or entangle, or whatever spell that interrupts their performance.
Curious minds and all :)
Good Hope shows up at 7th level and is completely superior to Inspire Courage as it gives +2 attack rolls, damage, skills, saves, and ability checks. And it lasts 1 min./level or 70 rounds when you can get it and affects a creature per level (7 when you get it).
All I'm saying is that it's not as good as it should be considering the alternatives. It should last as long as the magic equivalents, if not longer.
A simpler fix to the bardic song problem is that using a bard song more than an hour requires an additional use of the power at the start of each hour.
So why couldn't the bard cast Good Hope and then use bardic performance (in the same round) to give a different effect other than inspire courage? That seems more superior than ever before.
|
3
what about "Uses of Inspire Competence to grant a bonus to the group's climb skill taking 30 minutes to scale the cliff face."
I play a skill heavy game where you can expect to find checks that can't be done in a # of rounds, like cooking, climbing, and swimming.
My question is does this still work or after however many rounds of climbing is your bard unable to help people?
One of the great things I used to play now with Bards I can no longer do and that makes me a sad bard panda.
One of the things that used to be common with bards is that I would have one setup where you have a two- or three- person team setup where one person was the bard and they would be fascinating a group of people while the other two were going around picking pockets. Now it seems that with such a limited number of rounds of fascinate (effectively) that you wouldn't be able to pick more than one or two pockets in that time (since they're being all sneaky and such and not moving their full 30' a round).
I'll miss those days.
More hyperbole...
What, are these marks you're fleecing each on their own rooftop balcony?
No, they're packed together in a town square, listening to fascinating music. (Don't believe me? Take a stroll through Times Square when some guy whips out a guitar and see how quickly a crowd forms, shoulder to shoulder - assuming the guy is any good). The bard starts his fascination when his buddies are in place, and now, in Lem's case, those buddies get 28 rounds to pick 56 pockets since they don't have to do more than a 5' free move each round.
That's a whole lot more than "one or two pockets in that time".
I wasn't quite imagining time square when I was coming up with this example. More like a small town or village where it might take a few rounds to get people together because there aren't 7+ million in the city.
If the bard was meant to enhance the party EVERY SINGLE ROUND of COMBAT, then they would have the ability written as...
"when in combat, you inspire your party"
it's not MEANT to be an unlimited resource! It never was...
Hence having a limited number of uses.
So... let me get this straight here...
3.5 8th level Bard (with Extra Music) in one day does the following:
1 Use Fascinating the guard and using Suggestion to sneak past him (taking 2 rounds).
1 Use of Countersong to cancel a sonic spell (taking 1 round).
3 Uses of Inspire Competence to grant a bonus to the group's cleric use the Heal skill to stabilize, the Wizard to make a knowledge check, and the rogue to disarm a trap (taking a total of 5 rounds)
4 Uses of Inspire Courage during a host of combats (lasting about 5 rounds each, for a total of 20 rounds)Using the Pathfinder Rules, the sample Bard (with Extra Performance) could do the exact same thing.
This does not seem like an unreasonable list of uses to me and it really feels about right for the amount of versatility this class should give. The big payoff comes in the fact that the Pathfinder Bard can start his songs as a move action at this level and maintain them as a free, allowing him to take other actions (not that you can't with some of these abilities in 3.5, but it is less restrictive now). At low levels this ability is even more versatile than before.
I think that you will find that the number of rounds per day is really not nearly as restrictive as it might appear.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
Under the Beta rules Inspire Courage lasted a minimum of 6 rounds and could last significantly longer. Many people have been posting that their average combats require 10 rounds. Using the Beta rules the Bard could cover all 40 rounds and still get off the other performances. Whereas Lem, in the final rules, has to decide if he only wants to buff his allies 50% of the time in combat or if he wants to increase that to 70% at the expense of not being able to use it for anything but Inspire Courage.
Personally, I was looking forward to the new debuffs built into the Beta Bard. I do not see how I can use things like Dirge of Doom with out giving up a significant number of rounds of Inspire Courage under the new rules.
So... let me get this straight here...
3.5 8th level Bard (with Extra Music) in one day does the following:
1 Use Fascinating the guard and using Suggestion to sneak past him (taking 2 rounds).
1 Use of Countersong to cancel a sonic spell (taking 1 round).
3 Uses of Inspire Competence to grant a bonus to the group's cleric use the Heal skill to stabilize, the Wizard to make a knowledge check, and the rogue to disarm a trap (taking a total of 5 rounds)
4 Uses of Inspire Courage during a host of combats (lasting about 5 rounds each, for a total of 20 rounds)Using the Pathfinder Rules, the sample Bard (with Extra Performance) could do the exact same thing.
This does not seem like an unreasonable list of uses to me and it really feels about right for the amount of versatility this class should give. The big payoff comes in the fact that the Pathfinder Bard can start his songs as a move action at this level and maintain them as a free, allowing him to take other actions (not that you can't with some of these abilities in 3.5, but it is less restrictive now). At low levels this ability is even more versatile than before.
I think that you will find that the number of rounds per day is really not nearly as restrictive as it might appear.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
It's number 4 that gets you. I think that there are a lot of people that have the experience that having 40 rounds in a day of combat isn't out of the realm of possibility.
We had a light night last night and it lasted 20 rounds of combat, 40 is more typical in a day. If combats only lasted 5 rounds for us then that would be great, but they don't where I play and that's the problem.
Hmmm ... we're playing Second Darkness currently, and have only had one battle that went what I felt was "long". The characters were all third level at the time, there are five of us, and the only reason the battle went as long as it did was the time we had to take to get to them (the battle took place on three different levels of the building ;p). That battle went around 15 rounds or so, and we'd been through one battle earlier in the day that only took around 6 rounds.
So, yes, our Bard would have been out of rounds by the time we got to the last folks (quick figuring he'd have had 12 rounds), but he would have been able to stop performing while we ran down and up to the other combatants, and the healer and sorcerer were also about tapped out of spells by the time we got to the final guys as well. The bard still had a few spells left, so I feel this would have been a balanced fight either way.
|
|
Hence having a limited number of uses.If the bard was meant to enhance the party EVERY SINGLE ROUND of COMBAT, then they would have the ability written as...
"when in combat, you inspire your party"
it's not MEANT to be an unlimited resource! It never was...
Hence the change to rounds per day...
"uses/day", from what other people say, obviously lead to lazy bards...
and it lead to people admittedly singing throughout a whole dungeon...
I like the changes, my players like the changes, that's good enough for me.
Hence having a limited number of uses.If the bard was meant to enhance the party EVERY SINGLE ROUND of COMBAT, then they would have the ability written as...
"when in combat, you inspire your party"
it's not MEANT to be an unlimited resource! It never was...
Hence the change to rounds per day...
"uses/day", from what other people say, obviously lead to lazy bards...
and it lead to people admittedly singing throughout a whole dungeon...
I like the changes, my players like the changes, that's good enough for me.
Well, how nice for you guys. But the rest of see too much resource limitation for something that was weak in the first place
So why couldn't the bard cast Good Hope and then use bardic performance (in the same round) to give a different effect other than inspire courage? That seems more superior than ever before.Good Hope shows up at 7th level and is completely superior to Inspire Courage as it gives +2 attack rolls, damage, skills, saves, and ability checks. And it lasts 1 min./level or 70 rounds when you can get it and affects a creature per level (7 when you get it).
All I'm saying is that it's not as good as it should be considering the alternatives. It should last as long as the magic equivalents, if not longer.
A simpler fix to the bardic song problem is that using a bard song more than an hour requires an additional use of the power at the start of each hour.
They could and that's valid. But it doesn't feel bardish to me. The bard's primary means of bringing about success should be through music (at least to me). And, personally, I would have rather seen the class's magic ability reduced than see its musical ability reduced.
Director of Games
|
To be honest with folks here, we had to make some assumptions on how long typical combats lasted in a game. With that average in mind, we built the math to accommodate that. Your game might not fit that thought, so if your combats last 10 rounds or longer, you can always change the mechanic, but you can also assume that this sort of buff is not one that you get for the whole fight. I know that is a change that some will find hard to swallow, but we opted for versatility here.
As for the whole inspire while climbing bit (or any action that requires a roll), the rules have always been silent on when the roll actually takes place. I think we can safely assume that it does not occur at the beginning, otherwise you could stop if you fail. I think using this ability when checks are made is a fine interpretation.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
|
|
Well, how nice for you guys. But the rest of see too much resource limitation for something that was weak in the first placeHence having a limited number of uses.If the bard was meant to enhance the party EVERY SINGLE ROUND of COMBAT, then they would have the ability written as...
"when in combat, you inspire your party"
it's not MEANT to be an unlimited resource! It never was...
Hence the change to rounds per day...
"uses/day", from what other people say, obviously lead to lazy bards...
and it lead to people admittedly singing throughout a whole dungeon...
I like the changes, my players like the changes, that's good enough for me.
"Some", not, "The Rest" if you look at the top of the thread, there is plenty of support for it. As always, it's YOUR game, house-rule it, Stick to 3.5, do what makes you happy.
Bard's aren't really primary casters, they are a gishish class, and as such they need to spread their stats around. 18 is a reasonable Cha for an 8th level Bard especially when you note he also has an 18 Dex.I don't have a problem with the limitation. As I stated before I think rounds/day versus uses per day is alright. What I'm upset about is that it doesn't scale quickly enough. I thought CHA + 2 additional uses a level instead of a flat 2 uses would have been a better formaula.Hmmm. That would give Lem 56 uses of bardic music per day. At 8th level. That's quite a lot. And Lem has an awfully low CHA for an 8th level bard. He should be at least 2-4 points higher, IMO, which would give him 8-16 more uses by your formula. 72 rounds of bardic music per day is a whole heckuva lot.
Maybe.
What you say is not untrue, but it is only one way to build a bard.
Lem is built to be a ranged attacker as well as a performer. Others might build more for performance and spellcasting (which is what I would do).
Hence, I would have arranged a higher CHA and lower DEX, and/or I would be wearing a CHA item instead of a DEX item. Hence my take that I would have 2-4 more points of CHA.
I even said IMO.
I think MO and YO are both valid. I was just showing one way a reasonable bard build could very quickly have virtually unlimited uses of bardic musing using the math of 2+CHA additional uses each level. Yeah, I know, 72 rounds is not "virtually unlimited" but in my experience, that's at least 40 or so rounds of non-combat usage and still enough usage left to handle all of a groups recommended daily fighting - to have enough bardic music to perform every round of every combat and still have approximately 40 uses left to spread throughout the rest of the day is "virtually unlimited" in my book.
Hmmm ... we're playing Second Darkness currently, and have only had one battle that went what I felt was "long". The characters were all third level at the time, there are five of us, and the only reason the battle went as long as it did was the time we had to take...So... let me get this straight here...
3.5 8th level Bard (with Extra Music) in one day does the following:
1 Use Fascinating the guard and using Suggestion to sneak past him (taking 2 rounds).
1 Use of Countersong to cancel a sonic spell (taking 1 round).
3 Uses of Inspire Competence to grant a bonus to the group's cleric use the Heal skill to stabilize, the Wizard to make a knowledge check, and the rogue to disarm a trap (taking a total of 5 rounds)
4 Uses of Inspire Courage during a host of combats (lasting about 5 rounds each, for a total of 20 rounds)Using the Pathfinder Rules, the sample Bard (with Extra Performance) could do the exact same thing.
This does not seem like an unreasonable list of uses to me and it really feels about right for the amount of versatility this class should give. The big payoff comes in the fact that the Pathfinder Bard can start his songs as a move action at this level and maintain them as a free, allowing him to take other actions (not that you can't with some of these abilities in 3.5, but it is less restrictive now). At low levels this ability is even more versatile than before.
I think that you will find that the number of rounds per day is really not nearly as restrictive as it might appear.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
It's number 4 that gets you. I think that there are a lot of people that have the experience that having 40 rounds in a day of combat isn't out of the realm of possibility.
We had a light night last night and it lasted 20 rounds of combat, 40 is more typical in a day. If combats only lasted 5 rounds for us then that would be great, but they don't where I play and that's the problem.
I guess I owe people an explanation. One, we play with people who aren't tactical geniuses (being as kind as I can), but really like roleplaying and they're nice people so we don't begrudge them. If we played more tactically we might be able to get it down to 5 rounds per fight, but we usually end up knocking one or two of us out early.
There's always a risk that when you design a game, your designers may be using averages from an experience that isn't universal. And while I applaud Jason for making the game a bazillion times better, I just want people to understand that there is variance in the game.
My GM is a good GM and does sometimes go out of his way not to do a TPK even though we do really stupid things. But that also tends to lengthen combat.
Also understand that the Pathfinder will be played with home grown games and original WotC products and third party products and the system has to allow for the longer (and shorter) combats that those modules might have.
We can't help it that he doesn't realize you can actually do stuff while you sing, but you can and you always could. You can sing and fight all day long. I think this was more a misunderstanding of the class. Additionally even in the situation where you were singing and didn't think you could fight you could still move around to provide flanks and position yourself to drop out of singing in order to provide a critical heal. The class still had tactical decisions to make.I have a player running a bard in Second Darkness right now, and it gets to where I just skip over him in the initiative every round because it's ALL HE DOES.
DM: Okay, all the enemies have attacked, you're doing X, you're doing Y ... oh, and [bard], I assume you're still singing?
Bard: Yeah [without looking up, as he continues to text his girlfriend throughout the combat]
Please, make him put some thought into what he's doing.
(And, yes, I know he could have taken other actions while maintaining his song. The problem is, he doesn't. Now, maybe, if he runs out of Perform rounds, he'll have to do something.)
It's not that he doesn't realize he can do other things. It's that he chooses not to. I don't think he has ever rolled an attack, and he's almost 5th level now. Now, I don't think it's my place to take him aside and tell him he's playing his character wrong; however, I do applaud a mechanic that will make him consider what else he can do if he's not singing.
I guess I just don't care for an ability that works out to basically being "always on."
Maybe not, but if he were in my game, I would definitely take him aside and ask him if he's enjoying the time he spends at the table. I would suggest that the text messaging is distracting the other players and frankly, quite rude to the people who are here, in the room, and want to spend time with him - just as rude as sitting at a family dinner and spending the whole meal text messaging rather than socializing with the family.
I would find out what's wrong, why he's not enjoying himself, and what I could do to improve his experience in my game.
And if we can't come to terms that gets him more actively involved, less anti-social, and less rude, I would ask him to find a better way to spend his weekends and our group would find a replacement for him.
I think my players should be here at the game because they want to game, they want to be with their friends (or make new friends if they're new to the group), they want to socialize, and they want to interact. Bringing a gameboy, or text messaging, or craft projects, or whatever, are all signs that they're not in the right place and that the game may not be the best thing for this player.
Bard's aren't really primary casters, they are a gishish class, and as such they need to spread their stats around. 18 is a reasonable Cha for an 8th level Bard especially when you note he also has an 18 Dex.I don't have a problem with the limitation. As I stated before I think rounds/day versus uses per day is alright. What I'm upset about is that it doesn't scale quickly enough. I thought CHA + 2 additional uses a level instead of a flat 2 uses would have been a better formaula.Hmmm. That would give Lem 56 uses of bardic music per day. At 8th level. That's quite a lot. And Lem has an awfully low CHA for an 8th level bard. He should be at least 2-4 points higher, IMO, which would give him 8-16 more uses by your formula. 72 rounds of bardic music per day is a whole heckuva lot.Maybe.
What you say is not untrue, but it is only one way to build a bard.
Lem is built to be a ranged attacker as well as a performer. Others might build more for performance and spellcasting (which is what I would do).
Hence, I would have arranged a higher CHA and lower DEX, and/or I would be wearing a CHA item instead of a DEX item. Hence my take that I would have 2-4 more points of CHA.
I even said IMO.
I think MO and YO are both valid. I was just showing one way a reasonable bard build could very quickly have virtually unlimited uses of bardic musing using the math of 2+CHA additional uses each level. Yeah, I know, 72 rounds is not "virtually unlimited" but in my experience, that's at least 40 or so rounds of non-combat usage and still enough usage left to handle all of a groups recommended daily fighting - to have enough bardic music to perform every round of every combat and still have approximately 40 uses left to spread throughout the rest of the day is "virtually unlimited" in my book.
I agree, even though I came up with 2+CHA is way too much, but 2 flat is too small in my games. Perhaps 4 per would be a better compromise, but then again I haven't had a chance to play test any of the proposed changes yet.
|
Director of Games
|
Well, how nice for you guys. But the rest of see too much resource limitation for something that was weak in the first place
I am not 100% sure that you and I agree on what bardic music is supposed to be. It is a versatile mechanic that allows the bard to buff the rest of his party that varies according to the situation. It is not a powerful ability, it is a useful ability (that is not to say I have not seen it be rather powerful, but on the whole it is designed to add some enhancement to the party, not to break them statistically).
The limiting mechanic is there because it allows us to pack some more powerful abilities into the class. This preview does not show that too well, but some of the higher level bardic performance types are really quite good. This also opens up the possibility of adding other powerful abilities down the line through feats and pclasses. This is not really something we could do using the old rules due to the large number of times per day that they could be used.
I know some folks here have their doubts, but I really do think you should give it a try. It is not nearly as limiting as you might think.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
fascinating a whole crowd and picking all their pockets...oh yeah, that would get you in deep trouble in my game, I'm sure you would fail at least one, or someone would be out of range...
"Get a rope, we got us a shifty bard t'hang"
This isn't what the PCs are doing. This is what the NPCs are doing. Also there tends to be a lot more gray in some of the games I've been in. I tend to like moral complexity and lots of shades of gray.
The limiting mechanic is there because it allows us to pack some more powerful abilities into the class. This preview does not show that too well, but some of the higher level bardic performance types are really quite good. This also opens up the possibility of adding other powerful abilities down the line through feats and pclasses. This is not really something we could do using the old rules due to the large number of times per day that they could be used.
I know some folks here have their doubts, but I really do think you should give it a try. It is not nearly as limiting as you might think.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
I would like to see some of the more powerful abilities, but then again most of the games we play are low level. We generally stop around 12 and so most of our careers are spent at low levels.
Generally I find that since most campaigns I play start at 1 and end before 20 that I see the lowest levels the most often which is a little sad because it means that we don't get to the play with the really nifty abilities for as long as we get to play with the low level abilities.
I get to play with my level 1 abilities the entire campaign. I might only get to play with my level 12 or 13 ability for a few game sessions. Which is why I'm happy that there's been a downward shift in how early classes get their nifty abilities.
If people are worried about Inspire Competence while PCs are solving a complex puzzle that takes half an hour, a simple houserule is that you use 1 round worth of bardic performance per check. So if a skill check takes an hour, you use 1 round worth of music.
I think using this ability when checks are made is a fine interpretation.
I'm saving this date on my calendar. This just might be the first time ever that Mr. Bulmahn has actually come right out and agreed with me on anything... either I'm wearing him down, or else his way of thinking is rubbing off on me... either way... ;)
Let me see if I am understanding things so far.
Those that are concerned about the Rounds per Day of Performance are those that think/feel the only mechanical reason to play a Bard is to do something useful (buffing the party) every round of every fight. (Not as glorious as actually performing the killing blow, but in a way you can claim credit for every killing blow.)
I am one of those.
Those that love the Rounds per Day of Performance think/feel that Performance was silly as was, and/or broken as was.
Is this about the jist of it?
|
Director of Games
|
I'm saving this date on my calendar. This just might be the first time ever that Mr. Bulmahn has actually come right out and agreed with me on anything... either I'm wearing him down, or else his way of thinking is rubbing off on me... either way...!
Just for that I am taking it back..
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
((In all seriousness though, I really do think it is fine to see the use of the ability that way, as long as you know when the checks are about to occur. It really is probably not the best ability to use while climbing a 500' rock wall, but then again, making a bunch of unskilled PCs climb that wall is a little cruel to begin with))
Let me see if I am understanding things so far.
Those that are concerned about the Rounds per Day of Performance are those that think/feel the only mechanical reason to play a Bard is to do something useful (buffing the party) every round of every fight. (Not as glorious as actually performing the killing blow, but in a way you can claim credit for every killing blow.)
I am one of those.
Those that love the Rounds per Day of Performance think/feel that Performance was silly as was, and/or broken as was.
Is this about the jist of it?
Neither of those describe my feelings about it. I also think a bard should be able to do something useful every round of every fight, but I suspect that changing from uses per day to rounds per day won't affect that much.
Let me see if I am understanding things so far.
Those that are concerned about the Rounds per Day of Performance are those that think/feel the only mechanical reason to play a Bard is to do something useful (buffing the party) every round of every fight. (Not as glorious as actually performing the killing blow, but in a way you can claim credit for every killing blow.)
I am one of those.
Those that love the Rounds per Day of Performance think/feel that Performance was silly as was, and/or broken as was.
Is this about the jist of it?
I do believe that the Bard is a buffer. They're not there to make the killing blow or the cast the critical spell to open or close the door at the last minute or to summon the angel from the heavens.
They are there to make everyone a little bit better. A bard should be just as good or, if synergistic, a little bit better than having one more of a class in the party. A bard should be just as good an addition as a cleric, druid, or barbarian. Just for once, I'd like to see people arguing over who gets to play the paladin and not who gets to play the rogue/fighter/arcanist/cleric.
Neither of those describe my feelings about it. I also think a bard should be able to do something useful every round of every fight, but I suspect that changing from uses per day to rounds per day won't affect that much.Let me see if I am understanding things so far.
Those that are concerned about the Rounds per Day of Performance are those that think/feel the only mechanical reason to play a Bard is to do something useful (buffing the party) every round of every fight. (Not as glorious as actually performing the killing blow, but in a way you can claim credit for every killing blow.)
I am one of those.
Those that love the Rounds per Day of Performance think/feel that Performance was silly as was, and/or broken as was.
Is this about the jist of it?
If I can get my GMs to make shorter combats sure, but he really likes long combats. Both of my D&D GMs do. Which is going to be a problem. Perhaps I can get a two for one deal on Inspire Courage to solve the problem.
|
On the subject of lazy bards:
I find that that my (currently Beta) bard is one of the busiest characters in the party. He's always got something interesting to do, and it often doesn't involve bardic performances. There are glitterdusts/greases that need casting, baddies to arcane strike, fallen towers that are rolling down a hill to leap from etc. And that was all just in one combat! It's amazing if he has the standard action to spare in order to start inspiring anyone else's courage! :)
Point is that a well-prepared bard always has some sort of useful action available in combat. They have the widest range of abilities (combat, casting spells, skill monkeying) AND can use their bardic performances to aid the party/hinder enemies. Bardic music is just one tool in the box.
Many a time I've seen other party members delay or pass on actions because they couldn't contribute to a particular encounter. This has NEVER happened with my bard. I often find myself lamenting that I have but one standard action/round to act, when I have 3 different tricks I want to try out on a given foe.
The changes to the bardic music ability might shorten their overall duration, but they're more versatile now (can be combined with spellcasting = YAY!), so I consider that a good trade.
|
|
To be honest with folks here, we had to make some assumptions on how long typical combats lasted in a game. With that average in mind, we built the math to accommodate that. Your game might not fit that thought, so if your combats last 10 rounds or longer, you can always change the mechanic, but you can also assume that this sort of buff is not one that you get for the whole fight. I know that is a change that some will find hard to swallow, but we opted for versatility here.
As for the whole inspire while climbing bit (or any action that requires a roll), the rules have always been silent on when the roll actually takes place. I think we can safely assume that it does not occur at the beginning, otherwise you could stop if you fail. I think using this ability when checks are made is a fine interpretation.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
Mind telling me what that # is, for my gaming group its 5-6 rounds. I'm really curious to know weither the math was designed around my groups average or if I'm gonna see a need to do adjustments after playing.
|
|
((In all seriousness though, I really do think it is fine to see the use of the ability that way, as long as you know when the checks are about to occur. It really is probably not the best ability to use while climbing a 500' rock wall, but then again, making a bunch of unskilled PCs climb that wall is a little cruel to begin with))
Gotcha never put any characters in situations they may not have been expecting to deal with. No ship combat if they've never invested ranks in swim, just fast forward till when they land so they don't have to make balance or swim checks since they never bothered to train in them, and no being transported by a magic ritual to the beach of a strange and mysterious island where they have to scale a cliff just to get off the beach. Anything else I'm being cruel to my players for throwing at them in the interest of not fighting a band of orcs/demons in an open field for the 500th time being experienced gamers and all?[/sarcasm]
|
|
On the subject of lazy bards:
I find that that my (currently Beta) bard is one of the busiest characters in the party. He's always got something interesting to do, and it often doesn't involve bardic performances. There are glitterdusts/greases that need casting, baddies to arcane strike, fallen towers that are rolling down a hill to leap from etc. And that was all just in one combat! It's amazing if he has the standard action to spare in order to start inspiring anyone else's courage! :)
Point is that a well-prepared bard always has some sort of useful action available in combat. They have the widest range of abilities (combat, casting spells, skill monkeying) AND can use their bardic performances to aid the party/hinder enemies. Bardic music is just one tool in the box.
Many a time I've seen other party members delay or pass on actions because they couldn't contribute to a particular encounter. This has NEVER happened with my bard. I often find myself lamenting that I have but one standard action/round to act, when I have 3 different tricks I want to try out on a given foe.
The changes to the bardic music ability might shorten their overall duration, but they're more versatile now (can be combined with spellcasting = YAY!), so I consider that a good trade.
Huzzah! now that's what I like to hear...
I was referring to the person who said they had a player that would just sing sing sing...and text his girlfriend...
I had a bard in a dead PbP I was having a blast with, he was a wand rifle user, hand a few wands and was very integral to finding out info, prior to our DM having to drop the game because of RL =(
On the subject of lazy bards:
I find that that my (currently Beta) bard is one of the busiest characters in the party. He's always got something interesting to do, and it often doesn't involve bardic performances. There are glitterdusts/greases that need casting, baddies to arcane strike, fallen towers that are rolling down a hill to leap from etc. And that was all just in one combat! It's amazing if he has the standard action to spare in order to start inspiring anyone else's courage! :)
Point is that a well-prepared bard always has some sort of useful action available in combat. They have the widest range of abilities (combat, casting spells, skill monkeying) AND can use their bardic performances to aid the party/hinder enemies. Bardic music is just one tool in the box.
Many a time I've seen other party members delay or pass on actions because they couldn't contribute to a particular encounter. This has NEVER happened with my bard. I often find myself lamenting that I have but one standard action/round to act, when I have 3 different tricks I want to try out on a given foe.
The changes to the bardic music ability might shorten their overall duration, but they're more versatile now (can be combined with spellcasting = YAY!), so I consider that a good trade.
I also find that this is the case for the bards I play. I like the versatility. I also like that they're not the best at everything except being versatile. That said I consider Inspire Courage to be a fairly staple buff that should last at least as long as a Bless spell per use.
Let me see if I am understanding things so far.
Those that are concerned about the Rounds per Day of Performance are those that think/feel the only mechanical reason to play a Bard is to do something useful (buffing the party) every round of every fight. (Not as glorious as actually performing the killing blow, but in a way you can claim credit for every killing blow.)
I am one of those.
Those that love the Rounds per Day of Performance think/feel that Performance was silly as was, and/or broken as was.
Is this about the jist of it?
I would say that it sounds more like:
Those that are concerned about the Rounds per Day of Performance are those that think/feel the only mechanical reason to play a Bard is to make Bardic Performance do something useful (buffing the party) every round of every fight.
I don't think it's an issue of whether a bard can do "something useful" every round of every fight. The new bard seems to have the ability to contribute often and in a variety of ways, moreso than ever before. It's just not solely with Bardic Performance anymore.
Personally, I like the tactical aspect it seems to have now. Not that it didn't have one before, but there is no question a player of a Bard now has to manage this resource more carefully. I like the fact that a bard might now be encouraged to Inspire Competence when it matters instead of at the beginning of every combat.
Let me see if I am understanding things so far.
Those that are concerned about the Rounds per Day of Performance are those that think/feel the only mechanical reason to play a Bard is to do something useful (buffing the party) every round of every fight. (Not as glorious as actually performing the killing blow, but in a way you can claim credit for every killing blow.)
I am one of those.
Those that love the Rounds per Day of Performance think/feel that Performance was silly as was, and/or broken as was.
Is this about the jist of it?
I would say that it sounds more like:
Those that are concerned about the Rounds per Day of Performance are those that think/feel the only mechanical reason to play a Bard is to make Bardic Performance do something useful (buffing the party) every round of every fight.
I don't think it's an issue of whether a bard can do "something useful" every round of every fight. The new bard seems to have the ability to contribute often and in a variety of ways, moreso than ever before. It's just not solely with Bardic Performance anymore.
Personally, I like the tactical aspect it seems to have now. Not that it didn't have one before, but there is no question a player of a Bard now has to manage this resource more carefully. I like the fact that a bard might now be encouraged to Inspire Competence when it matters instead of at the beginning of every combat.
Yes I believe that the bardic performance should be able to do something useful to buff the party every round of every fight. Casters do it with a single spell every round.
Just using core you can do some significant buffing to the entire party using very little resources as a cleric or mage. Why shouldn't the bard do the same thing?
In my mind the Bardic Music ability should be superior to all other parts of the bard. But I do understand that that is one interpretation.
I would say that it sounds more like:
Those that are concerned about the Rounds per Day of Performance are those that think/feel the only mechanical reason to play a Bard is to make Bardic Performance do something useful (buffing the party) every round of every fight.
I don't think it's an issue of whether a bard can do "something useful" every round of every fight. The new bard seems to have the ability to contribute often and in a variety of ways, moreso than ever before. It's just not solely with Bardic Performance anymore.
Personally, I like the tactical aspect it seems to have now. Not that it didn't have one before, but there is no question a player of a Bard now has to manage this resource more carefully. I like the fact that a bard might now be encouraged to Inspire Competence when it matters instead of at the beginning of every combat.
I like the idea of a Bard that could cast a buff spell on my party, then inspire courage, then if the encounter looked tough toss out a debuff while maintaining the inspire and if not start laying into enemies from range with a bow; making good use of that Arcane Strike feat and all of the bonuses I am providing to be a pretty good archer.
If I try that using the new rules I will burn out like a caster going nova long before the day is done. I am now much weaker than I once might have been and as a result so is my party. Did the Bard really need a nerf? Wasn't one of the goals of PfRPG to lengthen the adventuring day?
Here comes the heroes.
lvl 13 Paladin (or fighter or barbarian)
1vl 13 cleric (or druid)
lvl 13 TWF rogue
lvl 13 wizard or Sorcerer
and...lvl 13 bard.
They enter the cave and meat the BBEG (Undead or dragon or whatever).
BBEG thinks...who shall I bring down first?
...answer: well not the bard. He can Inspire courage +3 and cast some low level, not to dangerous spells with a bad DC.
3.x bard sucked. The Alpha and beta still was bad. And this one still is.
The Bard didn't even get Trapfinding.
I'm disappointed.
Hey Abraham Spalding. I was right. The Bard is hopeless.
|
Director of Games
|
Gotcha never put any characters in situations they may not have been expecting to deal with.... [[snip the snark]]
I am not really sure that this was necessary.
My point here was that over that long a distance characters are bound to fail no matter the bonuses. I am not, by any means, saying the characters should not have to undertake tasks that they do not expect. That is a big part of the game. What I am saying is that forcing characters to make dozens of repetitive rolls just to get over a simple obstacle, which does nothing more to cause them to deal with dice probability over a long sample, is not perhaps the nicest thing a GM can plan for in his game. Lets leave the sarcasm out of it for now.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
Here comes the heroes.
lvl 13 Paladin (or fighter or barbarian)
1vl 13 cleric (or druid)
lvl 13 TWF rogue
lvl 13 wizard or Sorcerer
and...lvl 13 bard.
They enter the cave and meat the BBEG (Undead or dragon or whatever).
BBEG thinks...who shall I bring down first?
...answer: well not the bard. He can Inspire courage +3 and cast some low level, not to dangerous spells with a bad DC.
3.x bard sucked. The Alpha and beta still was bad. And this one still is.
The Bard didn't even get Trapfinding.
I'm disappointed.
Hey Abraham Spalding. I was right. The Bard is hopeless.
He's not hopeless. He still needs some tweaking, but he's vastly better overall than the 3.x one and I'm probably one of the biggest whiners in here when it comes to talking about the new bard (yes I recognize my own whininess).
Yes. I like a lot of the new stuff. I liked the rounds per day mechanic but it would have been great if Inspire courage was great. But its isn't.
Who wants to nuke the bard? YThe attack boost a party can get from a paladin or ranger is much more powerful and these classes are muck more powerful.
|
|
I wasn't quite imagining time square when I was coming up with this example. More like a small town or village where it might take a few rounds to get people together because there aren't 7+ million in the city.
I didn't intend to jump into this discussion...but I feel compelled to point out that a bard wouldn't have to use actual "bardic music" to gather the villagers. Just play/sing/dance/whatever and then start using fascinate when everyone is in place.
tweaking? tweaking is the problem. He needed something really new and a BIG boost.
But I love Paizo and will buy the pathfinder. But the bard? I'm not happy. The Bard is hopeless.
|
RPG Superstar 2013 Top 4, RPG Superstar 2011 Top 16
|
I for one am glad that you can't use inspire courage every round of every combat now. Resource Managment seems to be dirty word to modern players. It's something that used to be an integral part of the game. OMG my wizard has to bust out a crossbow to save spells for later... MADNESS I say!
Jason, so far I loved everything you guys are doing. Your experience is similar to mine as a DM of 16 years. Combats last about 3-5 rounds on average with boss fights going 5-10. The 15 minute adventuring day only exists if the adventure allows the PC's to control the pace... and we all know that real life doesn't stop because we're tired so why should the game world?
Now the Bard being one of my favorite classes looks great. I love how it gets easier to use bardic performance AND you can cast spells while you're doing it! Better HD thank you! Now I can wade in rapier a blazing without being so fragile. More spells is lovely! What other caster can say they got MORE spells?!?!
Oh BTW for the Confusion spells and condition... did you get rid of that annoying attack whoever last attacked you clause??? Because that's really all that happened with confusion before. And as a DM having multiple saves is nice for both sides. It's especially nice for those "Dramatic DM's" who fudge rolls... now you can blow your first save and give the PC's some satisfaction before shaking it off later to continue the combat.
--King of Vrock!