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On topic, I personally fell that the adventures life style would be an appealing and safe choice for queer folk in a fantasy world.A major theme of the Hobbit and Lord of the Rings is how other hobbits regarded the Baggins family as a bit 'queer' (in the old-fashioned sense of the word) for their wanderlust and adventuring spirit. To more sedentary folk, folk with families, businesses, homesteads, etc. to tie them to a specific location, adventurers must already seem terribly 'non-traditional' or even a little bit crazy, and therefore might attract a greater than normal percentage of people who were already prone to rowing against whatever currents prevailed among their home cultures.
So, even if the setting had a bunch of areas that were strongly locked into gender roles and muddle-headed notions of what's 'appropriately' manly or feminine, adventurers would likely buck those traditions, even those of their home regions or cultures, as they travel to many very different places and work alongside members of very different cultures.
That's pretty much how it worked out historically. If you look at America's Wild West, you find gay cowboys, religious minorities, unmarried women, and, of course, outlaws, all looking for opportunities that don't discriminate based on their personal habits or their station. Also, sometimes it seems like, prior to the 20th century or so, any time you had a major war break out, you eventually ended up with women in uniform passing as men.
Japan has been historically well known for its highly prescriptive gender roles. Yet, again, if you at times of war, you see women samurai not only defending the home, but working in espionage and special forces (i.e. ninjas).
Golarion is written as having a generally liberal, even progressive bent, but even if you want to play in a more retrograde, genderist setting, the adventuring life offers plenty of opportunities for PCs to swim against the current. I mean, a sorcerer that purposefully invades haunted tombs is weird enough; that she she is a half-orc and a woman seem like minor details by comparison.
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I think I found something for this thread Link
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Very accurate. "Think of the children!!" Is the worst argument you can give to defend bigotry. Children are quite fine with many things until adults tell them it is morally reprehensible and start rewarding them for thinking the same way.
Assistant Software Developer
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That's pretty much how it worked out historically. If you look at America's Wild West, you find gay cowboys, religious minorities, unmarried women, and, of course, outlaws, all looking for opportunities that don't discriminate based on their personal habits or their station.
I would also note many people of color went west for those same reasons. Oklahoma's land run, in particular, held a mighty nice chance for relatively recently freed slaves to own and work the land for themselves.
I currently run a gaming group that consists of 4 high school aged young adults,(the youngest being 15, its ok, her older brother (25) is always present to keep an eye on her), my buddy from work (25), my buddy from a previous gaming group(22) and myself (28). In my youth I was a bit intolerant, until I adopted the Pelagius school of thought. That each and everyone of us has the free will to make our own decisions, that's what I took away from it. The young people in our group don't see homosexuality as a threat. Indeed, the gamer girl is openly bisexual. As I am older now, I have become much much more tolerant. As the moderator said, Pathfinder/Golarion has Diversity. It gets incredibly boring with the same old "beautiful princess falls in love with handsome dude rescuer" or similar stories. In the WotR campaign we see both transgender lesbianism, and interracial gay men. These are major NPCs. I say, this adds a whole new dimension of story and background to the game. My players even got a kick out of the lesbian cleric in the RoW campaign. In a world where there is an entire nation that drives militant Atheism, homosexuality or even bisexuality, shouldn't be a big deal. I don't like when it is forced in our faces in a "were here, get over it" attitude, but with time and cooperation, we can see this topic put to rest. I don't mind it in the game. Diversity is what makes the world go round. I think there is a TV theme song about it. Cant for the life of me remember it.....
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Fun fact: The trox illustrated in the Bestiary 4 is a female. Same with the wyvaran. Wes and I sat down to figure out the basics of their sexual dimorphism, and finally settled on female wyvaran being leaner and taller and female trox being less colorful, but with a bioluminescent tail they use to attract males. Sadly, a lot of flavor text needs to be cut to make room for the player race statblocks.
>Gobbles up the delicious race information<
Just to start off, I did NOT go through 5,000+ posts, because I think I can get the general idea just by looking at the title.
Let's see now...
First I want to say that I honestly appreciate the inclusion of homosexual characters in Pathfinder, Queen Ileosa and Sabina for example, as most RPGs seem to ignore this group completely. However it seems to me that Paizo has fallen into the trap of only making female gay characters. What I would like to see are some gay male characters and transsexuals in Golarion, the women have had their fun, let the boys and anyone in between in on it as well!
Also, I would like to see some information on how these groups are generally treated in the various societies on Golarion (most of what I've seen up til now seems to be quite progressive, but I doubt that is true for the entire world).
1) I would assume that homosexuality is either viewed as bad or as indifference. When I say "bad", I often see it as "bad from a social point of view". There are many noble families in Golarion, most of them wish to establish link and connections with each others through weddings and thus scions from these unions. 2 sons or 2 daughters marrying doesn't look like a good way to "expand" both families.
For non-noble/royal people, pretty sure it's difference. At best, homosexual couples are tolerate; at worst, they're exiled... I don't think Golarion would go as far as killing homosexual people like they did back in the Middle Age. Pathfinder is supposed to cater to everyone... now's not the time to be homophobic in addition of racist.
Furthermore, for goodness sake, we have a bunch of interspecies couples, a.k.a. half elves and half-orcs. if THAT's tolerated, I don't see how same-sex couples wouldn't.
Finally, magic exists. Oh, two women fall in love. One casts Polymorph to become a male version of herself, passes as a male, both get married and then live as two women. And yes, one can impregnate the other while polymorphed. Here's another case: a regular couple is living normally, but then a prankster gives a girdle of opposing gender to the lady. Guess what happens next?
2) The homosexuality has to be "put into concept". If you just add this trait just to add this trait, then there's a problem. See? I don't really like when they shove it down the throat (oh boy, sorry for the innuendo here) and make it sound like a necessary aspect of society to cover, or else they might get flamed by groups. Then again... did Paizo ever make a character just so it wouldn't be considered homophobic?
Furthermore, I don't think Paizo is introducing (oh God, sorry again DX) lesbian characters just so male players and DMs can be turned on and can phantasize at night, so they buy the books to get all the info they need. If it happens, then there are so sick people out there.
3) D&D had at least one transsexual race: Eberron's changelings. Be male or female, each gender could be bisexual and practice polygamy, since they could take the form of any humanoid they wish.
4) It's all up to the DM. Sure, Golarion might have its own rules and policies, but the DM can just throw that away and make its own. I don't see DMs making drastic changes to regions, such as making Cheliax a place for angels and good outsiders, but hey, its world, its rules.
5) Bottom line, if it's not brought up, then no need to worry about it.
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Just to start off, I did NOT go through 5,000+ posts, because I think I can get the general idea just by looking at the title.
Let's see now...
1) I would assume that homosexuality is either viewed as bad or as indifference. When I say "bad", I often see it as "bad from a social point of view". There are many noble families in Golarion, most of them wish to establish link and connections with each others through weddings and thus scions from these unions. 2 sons or 2 daughters marrying doesn't look like a good way to "expand" both families.
For non-noble/royal people, pretty sure it's difference. At best, homosexual couples are tolerate; at worst, they're exiled... I don't think Golarion would go as far as killing homosexual people like they did back in the Middle Age. Pathfinder is supposed to cater to everyone... now's not the time to be homophobic in addition of racist.
Furthermore, for goodness sake, we have a bunch of interspecies couples, a.k.a. half elves and half-orcs. if THAT's tolerated, I don't see how same-sex couples wouldn't.
Finally, magic exists. Oh, two women fall in love. One casts Polymorph to become a male version of herself, passes as a male, both get married and then live as two women. And yes, one can impregnate the other while polymorphed. Here's another case:...
Actually the default state for Golarion (or at least the Inner Sea) is that homosexuality is treated as normal and generally not persecuted or the topic of much discussion. There are no examples of exile and numerous examples of same sex partners (cough "that is why reading a thread before commenting is useful" cough). Also You don't have to polymorph your sex to get married. There are two married same sex couples in the most recent AP, for instance.
Actually the default state for Golarion (or at least the Inner Sea) is that homosexuality is treated as normal and generally not persecuted or the topic of much discussion. There are no examples of exile and numerous examples of same sex partners (cough "that is why reading a thread before commenting is useful" cough). Also You don't have to polymorph your sex to get married. There are two married same sex couples in the most recent AP, for instance.
(At this point, a TL;DR post would be useful... like someone would take to time to read 5,000+ posts over 100 pages these days...)
I'm actually kinda new to Golarion... but I would expect such a subject not to be explained in details. Where is that aborted anyway?
I actually went with, how to say it, logical explanations?
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Okay, in-depth response time:
1) I would assume that homosexuality is either viewed as bad or as indifference. When I say "bad", I often see it as "bad from a social point of view". There are many noble families in Golarion, most of them wish to establish link and connections with each others through weddings and thus scions from these unions. 2 sons or 2 daughters marrying doesn't look like a good way to "expand" both families.
As you mention below, with polymorph magic, this really isn't much of an issue.
For non-noble/royal people, pretty sure it's difference. At best, homosexual couples are tolerate; at worst, they're exiled... I don't think Golarion would go as far as killing homosexual people like they did back in the Middle Age. Pathfinder is supposed to cater to everyone... now's not the time to be homophobic in addition of racist.
Um...I don't think most LGBT people would view either merely being tolerated or being exiled as catering to them per se...though it would certainly be better than not including LGBT characters at all.
Furthermore, for goodness sake, we have a bunch of interspecies couples, a.k.a. half elves and half-orcs. if THAT's tolerated, I don't see how same-sex couples wouldn't.
This seems reasonable, yes.
Finally, magic exists. Oh, two women fall in love. One casts Polymorph to become a male version of herself, passes as a male, both get married and then live as two women. And yes, one can impregnate the other while polymorphed. Here's another case: a regular couple is living normally, but then a prankster gives a girdle of opposing gender to the lady. Guess what happens next?
Why would they need to sex-change to get married?
2) The homosexuality has to be "put into concept". If you just add this trait just to add this trait, then there's a problem. See? I don't really like when they shove it down the throat (oh boy, sorry for the innuendo here) and make it sound like a necessary aspect of society to cover, or else they might get flamed by groups. Then again... did Paizo ever make a character just so it wouldn't be considered homophobic?
Paizo has introduced a relatively large number of LGBT characters for the same reason they've introduced non-white characters and female characters who aren't just eye-candy, they believe all categories of people should be represented in their fantasy setting.
And they have gotten flamed for doing precisely this. Doesn't seem to have stopped them, though.
Furthermore, I don't think Paizo is introducing (oh God, sorry again DX) lesbian characters just so male players and DMs can be turned on and can phantasize at night, so they buy the books to get all the info they need. If it happens, then there are so sick people out there.
Yeah, that's clearly not their motivation.
3) D&D had at least one transsexual race: Eberron's changelings. Be male or female, each gender could be bisexual and practice polygamy, since they could take the form of any humanoid they wish.
Indeed.
4) It's all up to the DM. Sure, Golarion might have its own rules and policies, but the DM can just throw that away and make its own. I don't see DMs making drastic changes to regions, such as making Cheliax a place for angels and good outsiders, but hey, its world, its rules.
They certainly can if they wish, yes.
5) Bottom line, if it's not brought up, then no need to worry about it.
It does get brought up. I'm still not sure why anyone needs to worry about it...
(At this point, a TL;DR post would be useful... like someone would take to time to read 5,000+ posts over 100 pages these days...)
Where would you suggest such a post be placed? I mean, in a few months this post will just be part of the vast mass of the thread.
And I read the whole thing, not that long ago. Seemed interesting.
I'm actually kinda new to Golarion... but I would expect such a subject not to be explained in details. Where is that aborted anyway?
It's mostly explained by examples, when the mayor of a town is married to another man, or other such things, and nobody cares or even seems to notice it as odd...that says things about the world. Like that people mostly don't care.
There are a number of examples of that kind of thing. Along with LGBT Paladins (which certainly seems to argue that the Gods don't care).
I actually went with, how to say it, logical explanations?
I'm not sure prejudice of any sort is really logical...or how exiling gay people is a more logical response for a particular culture to have than not caring.
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1) I would assume that homosexuality is either viewed as bad or as indifference. When I say "bad", I often see it as "bad from a social point of view". There are many noble families in Golarion, most of them wish to establish link and connections with each others through weddings and thus scions from these unions. 2 sons or 2 daughters marrying doesn't look like a good way to "expand" both families.
1A) I query why you would assume that homosexuality would be viewed as either "bad" or with indifference? As you note in your following points, with spells such as polymorph, the existence of realities such as interspecies relationships, and the existence of races which buck the normative trends, such as Changelings, why would it not be viewed as "normal"? Or as "normal" as anything can be seen in a world of magic and monsters. I suppose I'm asking, why is "bad" an option, as opposed to just indifference? And when I say indifference, I mean the same indifference with which heterosexuality is viewed.
1B) Based on your point raised in the fourth paragraph of your post, namely the existence of magic, such as polymorph, which is definitely available to the noble's of Golarion, do you still feel like this perception would exist? If anything, the ability to pair off any children, regardless of gender, and still have the possibility of scions, would increase the options of nobility for power brokering through arranged marriages, and would be viewed as a good thing. In my opinion.
For non-noble/royal people, pretty sure it's difference. At best, homosexual couples are tolerate; at worst, they're exiled... I don't think Golarion would go as far as killing homosexual people like they did back in the Middle Age. Pathfinder is supposed to cater to everyone... now's not the time to be homophobic in addition of racist.
1C) Once more I ask, why do you feel they would be viewed in such a way, namely that they would be treated as different, tolerated at best, exiled at worst? As you note, interspecies couples are common, so I don't see how a same species couple, but of the same gender, would be viewed as strange. Perhaps that is merely because I don't see it as strange anyways, but I find it hard to imagine why they would, given the other points raised.
Furthermore, for goodness sake, we have a bunch of interspecies couples, a.k.a. half elves and half-orcs. if THAT's tolerated, I don't see how same-sex couples wouldn't.
1D) Exactly. Given you say this, do you still feel the same observations made in your first two paragraphs are valid? You seem to contradict them with this one. And the next one.
Finally, magic exists. Oh, two women fall in love. One casts Polymorph to become a male version of herself, passes as a male, both get married and then live as two women. And yes, one can impregnate the other while polymorphed. Here's another case: a regular couple is living normally, but then a prankster gives a girdle of opposing gender to the lady. Guess what happens next?
1E) As you say, magic. Anything is possible. Though, once again, I find myself curious. Why do you feel that one must get polymorphed into a male form before they could get married? I'm not sure if marriage is ever gone into in any of the Golarion books, but seeing as same sex marriages are legal in many places in our own, close-minded world, I find it hard to imagine that they would not also be so in Golarion.
1F) I find myself first wondering how the prankster got their hands on such an object, and what the poor woman in question did that they felt they deserved such a thing. But, ignoring the details for the sake of the hypothetical, ... actually, no, hold on a tick. A "regular" couple? I assume you mean a heterosexual couple, but given my time on these boards, I've learned that that assumption could be seen as heterosexist. If you are referring to a male and female couple, please avoid words which may imply that other arrangements, such as gay couples, are less normal. We are all equal, yes? :)
1G) Now, back to the point. I would assume the couple would immediately seek out a cleric to remove the garment and return the couple to their existing arrangement. Because if it wasn't the arrangement they desired, they would have gone to a cleric or wizard to change it to one they did like previously. If they didn't have access to such resources, it would depend on the sexuality of the male and female in question, as well as their gender. For example, if the woman was trans* but lacked the resources before then to access means to bring themself to a point with being happy with themselves, they would be happy with the result. If the male in the couple was bisexual or loved the person who is their wife, and not the gender they possessed, it would likely make little major difference to their relationship. Given the framing of the question, however, I assume it would result in the worst case scenario, which is much sadness and heartbreak. :(
2) The homosexuality has to be "put into concept". If you just add this trait just to add this trait, then there's a problem. See? I don't really like when they shove it down the throat (oh boy, sorry for the innuendo here) and make it sound like a necessary aspect of society to cover, or else they might get flamed by groups. Then again... did Paizo ever make a character just so it wouldn't be considered homophobic?
2A) I think, if you look at the history of Paizo's inclusion of homosexual characters, it is not a "token X character" scenario. They are included casually, as simply part of the cast, as it were. Normal, everyday, and the same as everyone else. As they are in truth. They are not elaborate, forced, or overly explicit. They are part of the world, which follows Paizo's general message of inclusion and acceptance.
Furthermore, I don't think Paizo is introducing (oh God, sorry again DX) lesbian characters just so male players and DMs can be turned on and can phantasize at night, so they buy the books to get all the info they need. If it happens, then there are so sick people out there.
2B) I didn't catch the innuendo there, but I feel that these concerns are dealt with with what I said in the previous paragraph.
3) D&D had at least one transsexual race: Eberron's changelings. Be male or female, each gender could be bisexual and practice polygamy, since they could take the form of any humanoid they wish.
3) Which is totally awesome. :)
4) It's all up to the DM. Sure, Golarion might have its own rules and policies, but the DM can just throw that away and make its own. I don't see DMs making drastic changes to regions, such as making Cheliax a place for angels and good outsiders, but hey, its world, its rules.
4) Very true. Just remember that they are no longer playing in Paizo's Golarion when they do. They are playing their homebrew game, drawing inspiration and content from Golarion.
5) Bottom line, if it's not brought up, then no need to worry about it.
5) Not necessarily true. If it's not brought up because it's part of the normal world, a piece of the background, as accepted as anything else, then, you're right. No need to worry. If it's not brought up because it's being swept under the rug and denied existence, then we need to bring it up. Because these people do exist, and their existence, even as part of the background, is important to a lot of people.
(At this point, a TL;DR post would be useful... like someone would take to time to read 5,000+ posts over 100 pages these days...)
While I agree such a thing would be useful, it is difficult to do. The OP can't be edited, other than by Paizo staff, and they are reluctant to edit poster's posts. Any new post would be absorbed into the mass of posts, as more and more posts are made. Not to mention, how do you TL;DR 5,185 posts? Though, in fairness, if you're truly interested, you'll read all the posts. I recently read a thread of 62,900 posts, because I was really interested in the subject matter. It took me a few months, but I did it, and I enjoyed.
Um...I don't think most LGBT people would view either merely being tolerated or being exiled as catering to them per se...though it would certainly be better than not including LGBT characters at all.
Ok look:
Pathfinder = game systemPaizo = company
Golarion = campaign setting
It should make more sense now. I meant that Pathfinder has to address everyone, regardless of race, gender, religion and orientation.
Paizo has introduced a relatively large number of LGBT characters for the same reason they've introduced non-white characters and female characters who aren't just eye-candy, they believe all categories of people should be represented in their fantasy setting.
And they have gotten flamed for doing precisely this. Doesn't seem to have stopped them, though.
That's good to know... but that's also not good to hear that they got critizised.
I'm not sure prejudice of any sort is really logical...or how exiling gay people is a more logical response for a particular culture to have than not caring.
I actually went with possibly the most common scenario when it comes to portray homosexuality in fiction when nobility and royalty are involved. I've seen a lot of patriarches and matriarches being in complete disagreement with their children's orientation due to their image they need to keep.
Logical = "Oh... that explains it." It explains things, but it doesn't excuse them for being good or bad.
I query why you would assume that homosexuality would be viewed as either "bad" or with indifference?
Based on your point raised in the fourth paragraph of your post, namely the existence of magic, such as polymorph, which is definitely available to the noble's of Golarion, do you still feel like this perception would exist?
Once more I ask, why do you feel they would be viewed in such a way, namely that they would be treated as different, tolerated at best, exiled at worst?
Given you say this, do you still feel the same observations made in your first two paragraphs are valid?
Why do you feel that one must get polymorphed into a male form before they could get married? I'm not sure if marriage is ever gone into in any of the Golarion books, but seeing as same sex marriages are legal in many places in our own, close-minded world, I find it hard to imagine that they would not also be so in Golarion.
Like I said, I went with an often-seen scenario that I thought could have been used in Golarion. If it's not used at all, then ok, fine, no need to complicate matters to begin with. In fiction, I've seen a LOT of families being in complete disagreement with their children's orientation. Is it something seen a lot in Golarion? I thought it was.
Also, while you guys talk about Golarion, there's also the real-life players, who have their own opinions on the matter.
As for the TD;DR thingy, the topic is active since 2008... which is a long time.
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I'd like to start this post by saying that I hope you do not feel aggrieved or "under attack" from these posts. That is certainly not my intent, and I apologise if you feel so. I just wish to clarify your points for my own understanding, and for the purposes of continuing discussion. :)
For non-noble/royal people, pretty sure it's difference. At best, homosexual couples are tolerate; at worst, they're exiled... I don't think Golarion would go as far as killing homosexual people like they did back in the Middle Age. Pathfinder is supposed to cater to everyone... now's not the time to be homophobic in addition of racist.Um...I don't think most LGBT people would view either merely being tolerated or being exiled as catering to them per se...though it would certainly be better than not including LGBT characters at all.Ok look:
Pathfinder = game system
Paizo = company
Golarion = campaign settingIt should make more sense now. I meant that Pathfinder has to address everyone, regardless of race, gender, religion and orientation.
I'm afraid I'm still not clear at what you're getting to here. Do you feel that Pathfinder doesn't address everyone? I don't think that's what you're saying, but I'm not sure how else to interpret it. Is that what you're saying? If so, in what ways do you feel that it's not inclusive? If not, what do you mean?
That's good to know... but that's also not good to hear that they got critizised.Paizo has introduced a relatively large number of LGBT characters for the same reason they've introduced non-white characters and female characters who aren't just eye-candy, they believe all categories of people should be represented in their fantasy setting.
And they have gotten flamed for doing precisely this. Doesn't seem to have stopped them, though.
I agree, it is a terrible shame. But they persevere and continue to thrive, and I find that inspirational. :)
I'm not sure prejudice of any sort is really logical...or how exiling gay people is a more logical response for a particular culture to have than not caring.I actually went with possibly the most common scenario when it comes to portray homosexuality in fiction when nobility and royalty are involved. I've seen a lot of patriarches and matriarches being in complete disagreement with their children's orientation due to their image they need to keep.
Logical = "Oh... that explains it." It explains things, but it doesn't excuse them for being good or bad.
Hmm... I think the problem is the use of the word logical. Logical doesn't mean "that explains it."
Logic has two meanings: first, it describes the use of valid reasoning in some activity; second, it names the normative study of reasoning or a branch thereof.
From above, logic implies valid reasoning. I feel the disagreement comes from the perception that to disagree with a child's orientation on the basis of "saving face" is neither valid nor reasonable. Which, truthfully, I don't think you're disagreeing with. I believe it is just a misunderstanding of terms, is all.
I query why you would assume that homosexuality would be viewed as either "bad" or with indifference?Based on your point raised in the fourth paragraph of your post, namely the existence of magic, such as polymorph, which is definitely available to the noble's of Golarion, do you still feel like this perception would exist?Once more I ask, why do you feel they would be viewed in such a way, namely that they would be treated as different, tolerated at best, exiled at worst?Given you say this, do you still feel the same observations made in your first two paragraphs are valid?Why do you feel that one must get polymorphed into a male form before they could get married? I'm not sure if marriage is ever gone into in any of the Golarion books, but seeing as same sex marriages are legal in many places in our own, close-minded world, I find it hard to imagine that they would not also be so in Golarion.Like I said, I went with an often-seen scenario that I thought could have been used in Golarion. If it's not used at all, then ok, fine, no need to complicate matters to begin with. In fiction, I've seen a LOT of families being in complete disagreement with their children's orientation. Is it something seen a lot in Golarion? I thought it was.
I can't think of a scenario in Golarion that touches on that topic, off the top of my head. I could easily stand corrected. I agree, it is an often seen scenario elsewhere. I mistook it for being your actual perceptions of the actual situation in Golarion, not a reference to said scenario. My apologies.
Also, while you guys talk about Golarion, there's also the real-life players, who have their own opinions on the matter.
This is very true, there are many real life players of every possible variety, I'm sure. I'm not sure why you mentioned it, but you're right.
As for the TD;DR thingy, the topic is active since 2008... which is a long time.
This is also true. An evolving discussion that changes with the times and the latest publications about the world of Golarion. Exciting, no? :) Maybe that's just me. :P Someone used to do a thing, every so often. Let me see if I can't find it...
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Apologies for the double post, but I found what I was looking for, courtesy of the talented Alice Margatroid.
*round of applause*
** Alice's Handy Dandy Guide to LGBT in Pathfinder**
Hi! If you're reading this you're no doubt here to discuss Homosexuality in Golarion. Welcome to the thread. I'm going to quickly counter some of the more common arguments we see talked about here in the interests of actually talking about interesting things from time to time.
** Why are LGBT people being included in Pathfinder?
Here's why.:There are a number of reasons, but primarily because Paizo believes that people should be represented in their game, no matter what majority or minority groups they belong to or identify with. Some of the Paizo staff and their customers are LGBT, after all.** But I don't like LGBT people / They go against my religious beliefs / The whole topic makes me feel uncomfortable!
Is that so?:Then remove it from your games. It's really easy to change the gender of a character here or there. Have fun!** But isn't this too controversial / political?
Nope!:It might be controversial, sure, but controversy makes for good gaming material. Racism, sexism, slavery, communism, colonialism, and all sorts of other controversial issues feature in Golarion in one way or another; there's no real reason to exclude something based on its controversial or political nature.LGBT people would also hesitate to say the mere inclusion of reflections of themselves is political; being queer is not a political statement but simply a reality of life for many people.
** But isn't this really anachronistic / reflecting of modern views / out of place for a fantasy game?
Nope!:If you look through history there are plenty of examples of LGBT people. From gay Spartan soldiers to the Hijra of India and numerous other examples in between, LGBT folk have existed in some form or another - although of course not considered in those terms.Golarion is also not a typical medieval fantasy setting. After all, women are equal to men here; likewise, not every second person you know is dying of the plague or forced into subsistence serfdom. :) In many regards our modern views are indeed supplanted into the world, and this is just one example of many.
** But I just want to kill things and loot their corpses! When would *SEXUALITY* ever come up?
More often than you think!:How often do your characters stay in an inn run by a happy husband and wife? Head off down to the ol' Calistrian temple looking for company? Chat up the pretty bard or waitress at the tavern? Meet families or couples, whether minor NPCs or major antagonists? Yup, these are all representations of people's sexualities, although you may not have thought so directly.It's honestly just as simple as once in a while including a gay paladin and his theatre-owning lover. It doesn't have to be a big issue at all. Easy peasy.
And if you don't care so much about this stuff? No big deal! Just head back down to the dungeon and have fun.
** I don't want to have sex scenes in my game! That's not appropriate for children / makes me feel uncomfortable / just is kinda weird!
That's cool, neither do I!:Sexuality doesn't just mean "sex". Not many people want to roleplay their characters goin' at it any more than just a "fade to black" scene. But I'm sure many people would enjoy developing a relationship with an NPC and falling in love. Mostly, that's probably someone of the opposite gender... but sometimes, that's an NPC of the same gender. That's all there is to it.** Why should a character be LGBT anyway? It doesn't add anything to the character!
Look here!:You shouldn't need to justify a reason for a character to be LGBT any more than you should justify a character being a woman or having blonde hair. In some small cases, these things might be relevant, but for the most part it's merely a background trait that may or may not come up and may or may not be interesting.Luckily, it's even easier to change an NPC's sexuality than it is their hair colour - you don't even need to worry about provided images being wrong, then.
Hopefully she won't mind me reposting it now.
While we're at it, here's another nice summary post.
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As for the TD;DR thingy, the topic is active since 2008... which is a long time.This is also true. An evolving discussion that changes with the times and the latest publications about the world of Golarion. Exciting, no? :) Maybe that's just me. :P Someone used to do a thing, every so often. Let me see if I can't find it...
Something like this one?
I'd like to start this post by saying that I hope you do not feel aggrieved or "under attack" from these posts. That is certainly not my intent, and I apologise if you feel so. I just wish to clarify your points for my own understanding, and for the purposes of continuing discussion. :)
Oh no, no, no, no, not at all. I'm feeling just fine ^_^
No offense taken as well ;)I'm afraid I'm still not clear at what you're getting to here. Do you feel that Pathfinder doesn't address everyone? I don't think that's what you're saying, but I'm not sure how else to interpret it. Is that what you're saying? If so, in what ways do you feel that it's not inclusive? If not, what do you mean?
I feel if they [folks at Paizo] didn't address homosexuality in their setting [Golarion] for their game [Pathfinder], they would have gotten critizised for omitting it. I thought that it had become mandatory for them when it shouldn't be at any time. No one should complain about the lack of LGBT characters in any media, because it's not a rule, but simply a choice.
So you choose to spend your life with someone of the same gender, no one is forcing you to do so or to go against it... I hope.
Hmm... I think the problem is the use of the word logical. Logical doesn't mean "that explains it."
Now that I re-read myself... yeah, it doesn't add up.. my bad.
I can't think of a scenario in Golarion that touches on that topic, off the top of my head. I could easily stand corrected. I agree, it is an often seen scenario elsewhere. I mistook it for being your actual perceptions of the actual situation in Golarion, not a reference to said scenario. My apologies.
My actual perception? Well, like I said, it's one's choice, I'm not here to judge. Besides, I got several LBGT friends, so... why would it bother me anyway ;)? I am looking for a girlfriend though.
Like I also said, I'm new to Golarion as a whole. I started DMing a 10-year old campaign set Eberron which slowly started adding Pathfinder rules... which then ended with a total party wipe... meaning that I ditched Eberron altogether and started to pick Golarion, but considering the HUGE amount of books available, I really can't through everything and hope to remember every last bit... although that would be VERY useful XD.
To reply truthfully, I just went with my perception on the matter with I've seen in fiction, be novels, TV series, movies, video games, comic books and such... and I didn't read the entire topic, so yeah, I missed 99% of the answers and went straight for my own without checking the others'. My fault.
This is very true, there are many real life players of every possible variety, I'm sure. I'm not sure why you mentioned it, but you're right.
It's one thing for you to accept homosexuality in a game... but it's another to make OTHERS accept it as well. While I don't think it occured to anyone here, it is still a possible outcome that one player becomes irritated by homosexual content... even in a tabletop game like Pathfinder.
I mentioned it since I thought it would be part of the "if it's not brought, then no worry about it." portion.
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So you choose to spend your life with someone of the same gender, no one is forcing you to do so or to go against it... I hope.
Do what now?
It's one thing for you to accept homosexuality in a game... but it's another to make OTHERS accept it as well. While I don't think it occured to anyone here, it is still a possible outcome that one player becomes irritated by homosexual content... even in a tabletop game like Pathfinder.
If someone told me that they weren't comfortable at my table because I feature non-white, non-cis, non-male characters in my adventures, then that's their damage.
If they get "irritated" by it, the door isn't far from wherever we're sitting and they have my permission to use it.
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Someone used to do a thing, every so often. Let me see if I can't find it...Something like this one?
The very same. :) Thank you.
I'd like to start this post by saying that I hope you do not feel aggrieved or "under attack" from these posts. That is certainly not my intent, and I apologise if you feel so. I just wish to clarify your points for my own understanding, and for the purposes of continuing discussion. :)Oh no, no, no, no, not at all. I'm feeling just fine ^_^
No offense taken as well ;)
Excellent. Just wished to verify, to put all our minds at ease. :)
I'm afraid I'm still not clear at what you're getting to here. Do you feel that Pathfinder doesn't address everyone? I don't think that's what you're saying, but I'm not sure how else to interpret it. Is that what you're saying? If so, in what ways do you feel that it's not inclusive? If not, what do you mean?I feel if they [folks at Paizo] didn't address homosexuality in their setting [Golarion] for their game [Pathfinder], they would have gotten critizised for omitting it. I thought that it had become mandatory for them when it shouldn't be at any time. No one should complain about the lack of LGBT characters in any media, because it's not a rule, but simply a choice.
So you choose to spend your life with someone of the same gender, no one is forcing you to do so or to go against it... I hope.
I don't think they would have been criticized if they decided not to include LGBT characters in their setting, as I have not heard such criticisms levied against the many other settings I have played that do not include such. I may be mistaken, of course, and am open to citations to the contrary.
I also do not believe it is mandatory, from my understanding. It is a choice of direction that the folks at Paizo made themselves, to reflect their own personal opinions and experiences.
As for the lack of LGBT characters in general media being a bad thing, well, that's more a topic for the The LGBT Gamer Community Thread. In short, though, many would disagree with you.
Hmm... I think the problem is the use of the word logical. Logical doesn't mean "that explains it."Now that I re-read myself... yeah, it doesn't add up.. my bad.
No worries, these things happen. :) I should know, I've had my fair share. xD
I can't think of a scenario in Golarion that touches on that topic, off the top of my head. I could easily stand corrected. I agree, it is an often seen scenario elsewhere. I mistook it for being your actual perceptions of the actual situation in Golarion, not a reference to said scenario. My apologies.My actual perception? Well, like I said, it's one's choice, I'm not here to judge. Besides, I got several LBGT friends, so... why would it bother me anyway ;)? I am looking for a girlfriend though.
Like I also said, I'm new to Golarion as a whole. I started DMing a 10-year old campaign set Eberron which slowly started adding Pathfinder rules... which then ended with a total party wipe... meaning that I ditched Eberron altogether and started to pick Golarion, but considering the HUGE amount of books available, I really can't through everything and hope to remember every last bit... although that would be VERY useful XD.
To reply truthfully, I just went with my perception on the matter with I've seen in fiction, be novels, TV series, movies, video games, comic books and such... and I didn't read the entire topic, so yeah, I missed 99% of the answers and went straight for my own without checking the others'. My fault.
Sounds like a fun campaign, and I hope you're enjoying the transition to Pathfinder. Eidetic memory would be fantastic to possess, certainly would help with remembering the quantity of content available to enjoy.
It's okay, as has been noted, it is a very long topic overall. I hope you check out those summary posts I linked though, I found them well thought out and insightful.
This is very true, there are many real life players of every possible variety, I'm sure. I'm not sure why you mentioned it, but you're right.It's one thing for you to accept homosexuality in a game... but it's another to make OTHERS accept it as well. While I don't think it occured to anyone here, it is still a possible outcome that one player becomes irritated by homosexual content... even in a tabletop game like Pathfinder.
I mentioned it since I thought it would be part of the "if it's not brought, then no worry about it." portion.
heh. Have no fear, everyone here has had abundant experience of those who become irritated by homosexual content. It has come up many times in the lifetime of this thread and will most certainly come up again. They're welcome to that opinion, and we will not force them to play in the Golarion setting if they don't like it. But we also won't let them force us to exclude LGBT content for their comfort. Each to their own, after all.
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Some people on this thread make me very sad. very very sad.
On the other hand, I'm really happy that the Devs at Paizo have a strong moral sense to not just exclude whole groups for the sake of "ease". Challenging stereotypes helps the community as a whole.
Just wanted to comment on one part of JiCi's post, the assertion that it was standard to kill people for being gay in middle age Europe. There is a lot of evidence that Homosexuality was not only tolerated but preferred over living single. The general reason for this appears to be that couples are more productive than single people and in a world where life hangs by a thread any boost in productivity was valued.
Of course I am sure there were exception and moments in time where this was not the case but in general middle age Europe did not kill people just for being gay.
Just wanted to comment on one part of JiCi's post, the assertion that it was standard to kill people for being gay in middle age Europe. There is a lot of evidence that Homosexuality was not only tolerated but preferred over living single. The general reason for this appears to be that couples are more productive than single people and in a world where life hangs by a thread any boost in productivity was valued.
Of course I am sure there were exception and moments in time where this was not the case but in general middle age Europe did not kill people just for being gay.
I could have sworn that I saw an article on how they mutilate your body 2 times (for 2 "infringements") and then the 3rd time, they outright killed you by execution. Bah... whatever...
Anyway, after reading the ENTIRE topic, here's what I got:
- Lots... and LOTS of removed posts. Did the mods work overtime here?
- Homosexuality in Goralion appears to be standard/legal. It's not something commonly aborted in conversations, but I assume that if no one talks about, then that probably means no one is offended about it. Keep in mind that the DM can change that and that I assume it's something not everyone in Golarion would tolerate. If there's racism at one tiny spot, then it's safe to assume that somewhere, homosexuality is not well viewed. Then again, I would see that as exceptions to the rules than the standards.
- Golarion does have its share of LGBT characters. HOWEVER, their orientation seems rather... trivial, I guess... like "Oh, they're together. Ok, that's cool. Next scene!" It never was a major trait on any of them. In short, if we wouldn't have known about their orientation, nothing would have changed about them.
So yeah, homosexuality in Golarion, totally not a secret, even if their LGBT characters are few and far between.
Speaking of which:
- In Korvosa, Queen Ileosa Arabasti and Sabina Merrin used to be lovers, until the Queen went nuts, possibly due to the spirit of an evil dragon.
- In Whitethrone, Solveig Ayrdahl left her lover Bella Belvorica from Cheliax behind to avoid capture. Reuniting them could be a mission on its own.
- Anevia Tirabade and Irabeth Tirabade are married, from the Worldwound Incursion AP. Oh, speaking of the Worldwound...
- They paired up Demon Lord Nocticula and Nascent Demon Lord Shamira together. We literally have a succubus lesbian couple as BBEGs (G stands for Gals). Speaking of powerful outsiders...
- Two Goddesses from the Dragon Empires are rumored to be lovers: the Kitsune Goddess Daikitsu and the Naga Goddess Nalinivati. Both neither confirm or deny... which means that they are in love.
- The whole Desna/Shelyn/Sarenrae love traingle that I did NOT find any evidence. Shelyn's dogma treats homosexual love as equally as heterosexual love, and Desna is often seeking comfort with the other twos due to her fears of being defeated by other deities. That doesn't tell me which Goddess is the preferred bedfellow of the other.
Did I sum up the situation correctly?
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- Golarion does have its share of LGBT characters. HOWEVER, their orientation seems rather... trivial, I guess... like "Oh, they're together. Ok, that's cool. Next scene!" It never was a major trait on any of them. In short, if we wouldn't have known about their orientation, nothing would have changed about them.
In fairness, this is true of heterosexual characters in Golarion, too. Paizo just doesn't make a big deal about sexuality in general. Hell, we only even know the sexualities of people who are in relationships or likely to hit on the PCs.
Did I sum up the situation correctly?
I'm pretty sure that list isn't exhaustive, though it seems relatively accurate.
I don't think Nocticula has a particular devotion to Shamira over her other pairings. As queen of the Succubi, I would make a joke about her being okay getting it on with anything with two legs, but then apparently there are strong suggestions that she has had trysts with JUBILEX, so she is not even that picky.
While I don't think it occured to anyone here, it is still a possible outcome that one player becomes irritated by homosexual content... even in a tabletop game like Pathfinder.
Why would play with people like that in the first place?
No one has the "right" to be "irritated by homosexual content" around me when they are loudly proclaiming their heterosexuality. Even you just did with "I am looking for a girlfriend though." Some people might find that just as offensive.
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While I don't think it occured to anyone here, it is still a possible outcome that one player becomes irritated by homosexual content... even in a tabletop game like Pathfinder.
it occurred to me. It's just I don't care. Just like if a racist on these boards was irritated by multiracial characters, I couldn't care less. Or if a misogynist on the boards who was offended by strong female leaders, I couldn't also care less.
Now hopefully these sorts of people are disappearing from the world (although some on this board have shown otherwise). Frankly, I don't care what offends them because they're wrong.