Homosexuality in Golarion


Lost Omens Campaign Setting General Discussion

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Lilith wrote:
I'd like to think that Pharasma's view of destiny and fate is not tied into one's physical appearance in the slightest. I can see some Pharasmins taking that tact, though.

Not just appearance, but how the body is physically constructed. Is that supposed to be a sign of your fate, or something you fight against in order to find your fate? Or for that matter, could this tie into Zyphus's teachings about randomness and no particular fate?

It seems I may have to retract what I said a couple years ago - including these themes can make the game more interesting; you just have to be willing to accept the "different world, different morals" motto.


Liz Courts wrote:
Removed a post and its reply. Continuing the discussion about divination spells and how they they interact with personal privacy is a topic best discussed elsewhere, and not in this thread. In this particular thread, it is crossing a line into real-life situations and violence. Please drop that particular line of questioning and discussion from this thread.

Thank you for giving a reason because I was very confused. I couldn't figure out what was off topic or why my posts were getting deleted.


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Lilith wrote:
I'd like to think that Pharasma's view of destiny and fate is not tied into one's physical appearance in the slightest. I can see some Pharasmins taking that tact, though.

It's perhaps unfortunate that gods are often associated with the imperfections of their followers.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
MMCJawa wrote:
Lilith wrote:
I'd like to think that Pharasma's view of destiny and fate is not tied into one's physical appearance in the slightest. I can see some Pharasmins taking that tact, though.
I generally sort of think gods kind of don't care about anything outside their purview, although obviously the faithful might have other ideas and add on their own cultural baggage. I suspect Pharasma doesn't really care about gender/sex, even with an interest in births.

It's more accurate to say that gods have a form of tunnelvision defined by their portfolios. Iomedae is the incarnation of the Crusade, she's essentially blind to the parts of the universe that don't impact on it... such as the financial statements of the Bank of Absalom, whereas the latter directly impinges on the perceptions of Abadar.

Liberty's Edge

Do we have a deity of Prejudice in the setting ?

Maybe Asmodeus would fit the bill. Prejudice does sound LE to me.


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Ambrosia Slaad wrote:
Fergurg wrote:

I had an interesting thought: Pharasma is the goddess of fate and destiny as well as death. How much would that play a role into your sexual activities/identity/etc.? After all, I could see a Pharasmin opposition to transsexuality on the basis of defying your fate, as well as a Pharasmin argument that someone with the body of a female not living as the man that person believes should have been is "denying his fate by just accepting the physical makeup".

My Pharasmin Penitence group in my semi-homebrew game just got more interesting.

I'd imagine it much more likely that most (if not nearly all) of Pharasma's faithful would see it as another obstacle (and often a big one at that) that trans* individuals must overcome on their personal journeys to achieve their true fated potentials.

sounds like one hell of a moderate level adventure!


When my group has played together, homosexuality of PCs or NPCs isn't seen as an issue or as an oddity.

Golarion supports marriage between people of different religions and different species, so why not love between people of the same gender?

Right now we're mid-way through Skull & Shackles. My Bard/Rogue (who is a male) is enjoying an exciting romance with Pierce Jerrell, which is proving to be a lot of fun!

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Pipefox wrote:

When my group has played together, homosexuality of PCs or NPCs isn't seen as an issue or as an oddity.

Golarion supports marriage between people of different religions and different species, so why not love between people of the same gender?

To be accurate, the MECHANICS supports some forms of inter species marriage. An elven woman who brings a human husband to Kyonin not only is going to get the cold shoulder from her fellow elves, her husband will still be restricted to the port city just like any other human.

And their half-elven offspring isn't exactly going to have a happy childhood.

Project Manager

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LazarX wrote:
Pipefox wrote:

When my group has played together, homosexuality of PCs or NPCs isn't seen as an issue or as an oddity.

Golarion supports marriage between people of different religions and different species, so why not love between people of the same gender?

To be accurate, the MECHANICS supports some forms of inter species marriage. An elven woman who brings a human husband to Kyonin not only is going to get the cold shoulder from her fellow elves, her husband will still be restricted to the port city just like any other human.

And their half-elven offspring isn't exactly going to have a happy childhood.

Sure, but in Nirmathas no one's going to care.


LazarX wrote:


To be accurate, the MECHANICS supports some forms of inter species marriage. An elven woman who brings a human husband to Kyonin not only is going to get the cold shoulder from her fellow elves, her husband will still be restricted to the port city just like any other human.

And their half-elven offspring isn't exactly going to have a happy childhood.

I suppose that depends where they're growing up. I'm sure any child of a mixed-race (or homosexual couple) will encounter bias in many places, but will also encounter people who will be supportive.

Having parents who love one another and who love their child doesn't guarantee, but does help make a happy childhood.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Jessica Price wrote:
LazarX wrote:
Pipefox wrote:

When my group has played together, homosexuality of PCs or NPCs isn't seen as an issue or as an oddity.

Golarion supports marriage between people of different religions and different species, so why not love between people of the same gender?

To be accurate, the MECHANICS supports some forms of inter species marriage. An elven woman who brings a human husband to Kyonin not only is going to get the cold shoulder from her fellow elves, her husband will still be restricted to the port city just like any other human.

And their half-elven offspring isn't exactly going to have a happy childhood.

Sure, but in Nirmathas no one's going to care.

I don't get what would make Nirmathas any different. Aren't they suspicious of ALL outsiders? (using the non planar term here)

Project Manager

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LazarX wrote:
Jessica Price wrote:
LazarX wrote:
Pipefox wrote:

When my group has played together, homosexuality of PCs or NPCs isn't seen as an issue or as an oddity.

Golarion supports marriage between people of different religions and different species, so why not love between people of the same gender?

To be accurate, the MECHANICS supports some forms of inter species marriage. An elven woman who brings a human husband to Kyonin not only is going to get the cold shoulder from her fellow elves, her husband will still be restricted to the port city just like any other human.

And their half-elven offspring isn't exactly going to have a happy childhood.

Sure, but in Nirmathas no one's going to care.
I don't get what would make Nirmathas any different. Aren't they suspicious of ALL outsiders? (using the non planar term here)

Sure. But they explicitly judge people by their actions, not their race. So they've got zero reason to care if someone's elven or half-elven, if that person has moved in and demonstrated dedication to protecting Nirmathi independence.

The mechanics support inter-race marriages.

So does most of the setting.

There are intentionally examples of where that's not true, and it varies from region to region. (Everyone tends to look down on marriage with an orc, but while some places might side-eye you for marrying an aasimar or a sylph, the vast majority won't.) Kyonin elves tend to disfavor marriages with humans. The default, though, is not having a problem with it unless the area in question has a reason to fear or despise a certain non-human race.

Overall, your "to be accurate" description up there isn't accurate.


?

I thought kyonin was populated with elven supremacists myself. Not as bad as the Eldreth Veluuthra, but still.

Project Manager

Freehold DM wrote:

?

I thought kyonin was populated with elven supremacists myself. Not as bad as the Eldreth Veluuthra, but still.

Like I said above, there are certainly areas where people are prejudiced against various types of human/non-human marriages.

But to say the mechanics support such marriages while the setting doesn't is inaccurate. The default for Golarion (of which various areas may differ) is to not have an issue with it. (With the exception of some defaults-to-violent-enemies-of-humankind races, like orcs -- pretty much anywhere you go, most people are probably going to think you're a bit touched if you marry an orc. But as far as elves, etc. the default isn't to have any significant prejudice against such marriages.)


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Jessica Price wrote:
Freehold DM wrote:

?

I thought kyonin was populated with elven supremacists myself. Not as bad as the Eldreth Veluuthra, but still.

Like I said above, there are certainly areas where people are prejudiced against various types of human/non-human marriages.

But to say the mechanics support such marriages while the setting doesn't is inaccurate. The default for Golarion (of which various areas may differ) is to not have an issue with it. (With the exception of some defaults-to-violent-enemies-of-humankind races, like orcs -- pretty much anywhere you go, most people are probably going to think you're a bit touched if you marry an orc. But as far as elves, etc. the default isn't to have any significant prejudice against such marriages.)

In all fairness, the orc is probably the weirder of the two in such a couple.

Scarab Sages

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XxAnthraxusxX wrote:

HMMM I guess i am homophobic. Not a crime i guess. In todays enlightened society it seems hip to ridicule anyone with any kind of moral center or religious belief. And homosexuality is so mainstream now it is as if it is the "in" thing all of the sudden. Invading even the most innocuous of arena's, Dungeons and Dragons.

Don't get it twisted though. I am not here to judge anyone. But pardon me if i don't bow and scrape to the politically correct crowd. It is the beauty of democracy, that you can give your opinion, i can give mine and armed storm troopers won't hunt either of us down and take us to task for it.
I do apologise for invading this rather disturbing thread,and if any one person was offended by anything i may have said, i apologise for that as well. On a parting note ,if there is room in PFRPG for a gay iconic, there has to be room for psionics as well. And for the record i do not condone the mistreatment of gays or psions in any way shape form or manner. Thank you.

But isn't the whole "We live in a free country" Argument kinda void when all you're trying to achieve is for people to stop insulting you?

I mean yeah you can say things people generally consider amoral but using your own argument people also have the right to call you amoral?


Jessica Price wrote:
Freehold DM wrote:

?

I thought kyonin was populated with elven supremacists myself. Not as bad as the Eldreth Veluuthra, but still.

Like I said above, there are certainly areas where people are prejudiced against various types of human/non-human marriages.

But to say the mechanics support such marriages while the setting doesn't is inaccurate. The default for Golarion (of which various areas may differ) is to not have an issue with it. (With the exception of some defaults-to-violent-enemies-of-humankind races, like orcs -- pretty much anywhere you go, most people are probably going to think you're a bit touched if you marry an orc. But as far as elves, etc. the default isn't to have any significant prejudice against such marriages.)

The literature you publish such as the Jeggare books seems to indicate that the elves of Kyonin pretty much mirror the elves of Celene in the Greyhawk setting, and those of Evermeet in the Realms in that most such half-elves are the unplanned. and generally unwanted result of trysts pr recreatonial flings, given that elves generally consider themselves superior to all races, but especially humanity in fairly typical Tolkien-style tradition. In fact, if I remember the setting book correctly, Krages in Kyonin was specifically founded as a dumping ground for unwanted half-elven offspring. So I think it's a fair assumption that half-elves, and their human forebears do have a stigma in Kyonin.. the major elven nation in Golarion. The fact that Jeggare turned down an offer to reside in Kyonin to return to Cheliax speaks to this... in my perception.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens Subscriber
Daggermoonbladebow the drow wrote:
...stuff...

Um, you do realize that you just reopened an 18-month-old can of worms thread, right?

Sovereign Court

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Card Game, Companion, Lost Omens, Pathfinder Accessories, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Maps, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber
Drahliana Moonrunner wrote:
The literature you publish such as the Jeggare books seems to indicate that the elves of Kyonin pretty much mirror the elves of Celene in the Greyhawk setting, and those of Evermeet in the Realms in that most such half-elves are the unplanned. and generally unwanted result of trysts pr recreatonial flings, given that elves generally consider themselves superior to all races, but especially humanity in fairly typical Tolkien-style tradition. In fact, if I remember the setting book correctly, Krages in Kyonin was specifically founded as a dumping ground for unwanted half-elven offspring. So I think it's a fair assumption that half-elves, and their human forebears do have a stigma in Kyonin.. the major elven nation in Golarion. The fact that Jeggare turned down an offer to reside in Kyonin to return to Cheliax speaks to this... in my perception.

You are drawing conclusions from scant evidence. Erages exists as a place of virtual exile for half-elves, but that doesn't mean elves frown upon pairings to humans. From Jeggare's story, we know that at worst it is considered a bit foolish to marry short-lived humans. And Varian leaving Kyonin says much more about his drive for adventure and sense of duty than it does politics in elven society.


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I realize this thread old, and people probably don't want to see it again. It was obviously a hot topic when it first started. But being new here, I just wanted to add my thoughts, even as I realize the discussion has veered somewhat from the OP.

As someone who reads a lot of BL (boys love) manga and m/m romance novels, and as someone who has volunteered at and LGBTQ resource center, I am all about inclusiveness in gaming and novels (I know several people of the LGBTQ community who are gamers, and I fully admit I am a sucker for same-sex relationships, particularly m/m. I'm a sap, what can I say?). Such things are a "niche" now, but I hope they one day become more mainstream. When I read the PF novel "Redemption Engine", I was thrilled about Bors and Roshad (I'm still fairly new to the novels, so that's the only same-sex relationship I have seen so far, but it made me smile).

Anyway, just wanted to add my thoughts and support to those who want to bring more inclusiveness into the gaming world. Again, I don't mean to resurrect an old discussion, I just wanted to share my thoughts as a newcomer.

Dark Archive

As a paladin of Arshea, I support loving, passionate, and consensual relationships in all their forms. I believe in the redeeming power of love in Arshea's warm embrace.


Kiroshka wrote:
As a paladin of Arshea, I support loving, passionate, and consensual relationships in all their forms. I believe in the redeeming power of love in Arshea's warm embrace.

Except for the "redeeming power of love part", it seems to work.


Just finished reading Queen of Thorns. I was going to add this to my original comment, but it's been too long and I can no longer edit it. I realize earlier comments were discussing the elves, so apologies again if this has already been mentioned (I don't really feel like reading through a 116 page thread).

I love elves (even though they can be arrogant and xenophobic), but I'm not a huge fan of Calistria being their favored goddess. That said, I was happy to see that the gender of a lover doesn't seem to matter much (this was implied in the beginning at the Midsummer Masquerade), and by Varial's implied bisexuality. This doesn't mean all elves are bisexual, but there does appear to be acceptance in, if not always the race of the lover, then at least the gender.

Again, I would have added this to my initial comment, but I hadn't yet read Queen of Thorns. Just my two coppers. As someone who feels strongly about this in the real world, I am always happy to see it in "mainstream" literature.


Given the prominence in Golarion-related materials, I would have to posit that it's significantly more common for sophonts, or at least standard player races, to be homosexual or bisexual in Golarion than it is in our world, even accounting for people still being in the closet in many parts of the world.

That, or notable PC-classed individuals have significant overlap with GSRM, possibly due to GSRM individuals having the most incentive to adventure, etc.; since notable PC-classed individuals are an even smaller minority in Golarion than GSRM are in our world.


Anyone else made Geb and Nex ex-lovers? Explains the depth of Geb's hatred for Nex and the length of the conflict, as well as Geb coming back as a ghost. Kind of a Dumbledor/Grindelwald feel, I s'pose.

Dark Archive

Ianesta wrote:
Anyone else made Geb and Nex ex-lovers? Explains the depth of Geb's hatred for Nex and the length of the conflict, as well as Geb coming back as a ghost. Kind of a Dumbledor/Grindelwald feel, I s'pose.

Certainly has a ring to it. They were literally the most important people in each others lives. And their war-flirting seemed to go cold when Geb dug up, lichified and married Arazni, with Nex getting huffy and leaving this plane of existence entirely, followed by Geb killing himself out of despair (which has to piss Arazni off, knowing that her husband both died, and then hung around as an undead, because he didn't know how to quit his crazy obsession with another dude).

I'm not sure I would make it canon, but it's certainly a fun rumor to spread to annoy the heck out of Arazni, the ghost of Geb and / or various Arclords who don't like their mentor's deadly serious rivalry with Geb painted as some sort of *epic* Romeo and Juliet star-crossed romantic misadventure.


Set wrote:
Ianesta wrote:
Anyone else made Geb and Nex ex-lovers? Explains the depth of Geb's hatred for Nex and the length of the conflict, as well as Geb coming back as a ghost. Kind of a Dumbledor/Grindelwald feel, I s'pose.

Certainly has a ring to it. They were literally the most important people in each others lives. And their war-flirting seemed to go cold when Geb dug up, lichified and married Arazni, with Nex getting huffy and leaving this plane of existence entirely, followed by Geb killing himself out of despair (which has to piss Arazni off, knowing that her husband both died, and then hung around as an undead, because he didn't know how to quit his crazy obsession with another dude).

I'm not sure I would make it canon, but it's certainly a fun rumor to spread to annoy the heck out of Arazni, the ghost of Geb and / or various Arclords who don't like their mentor's deadly serious rivalry with Geb painted as some sort of *epic* Romeo and Juliet star-crossed romantic misadventure.

To be fair to the Arclords, I think even Tar-Baphon, a guy who is literally for the evulz in terms of villainous motivation, would have to look at them askance and say "Dudes, that's some terrible villainous motivation."

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